Classic TV Sitcoms - Mount Rushmost - Construction Completed

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Promise its my last post in the thread then I will bow out.
But this is wrong.

It peaked at 27.8 average viewers the first season.
As last as 2002 they were still averaging over 14 million.

At least according to wikipedia, which is the first source I find for ratings numbers:
The Simpsons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Taken from Wikipedia:

[Suicane75]

To anyone who has never seen the Burns & Allen show, I highly recommend it. I never even knew it existed up until a couple of years ago when I would see it rerun on Antenna TV in the middle of the night. It's both quality and groundbreaking.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Promise its my last post in the thread then I will bow out.
But this is wrong.

It peaked at 27.8 average viewers the first season.
As last as 2002 they were still averaging over 14 million.

At least according to wikipedia, which is the first source I find for ratings numbers:
The Simpsons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For consistency, all the numbers I've used in this exercise are households, not estimated viewers. Nielsen used to report households as its primary number. They still report both totals.

[stevew]

Is there a very special episode of the Danny Thomas show that involves a coffee table?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by stevew

Is there a very special episode of the Danny Thomas show that involves a coffee table?

No ... but probably only 'cause cell phones weren't invented yet.

[CrimsonFox]

God help me JOn i was thinking of adding in Gilligan too...but only because it is probably the most wellknown and still constantly played of all of them to this day.

[CrimsonFox]

I just read something cool about HOneymooners. It was NOT just a 1 year thing. Well in that sitcom form it was. But it had been a regular sketch series on his variety show for several years before that with a different cast (except for Carney)

Trixie was originally played by Broadway actress and dancer Elaine Stritch and the character was a burlesque dancer. Norton in the series commented about it but the acteress Joyce Randolph never played her that way and denied it.

After the show ended the show went back to sketches without audrey meadows and mostly just when Carney was available. Eventually Meadows became available again and rejoined in them winning herself a well deserved emmy for it. Carney was the only one to win for the series. Again well-deserved. I guess I gotta hand it to Gleason. His timing and bombassity was as good as Ball's.

[Solecismic]

My primary exposure to sitcoms of the '50s and '60s was reruns after school when I was a kid. So I'm familiar with all the kids shows that ran on the local independent station. There's a lot I haven't seen.

The show I appreciate today for its writing and acting (except for the screaming little boy) is The Dick Van Dyke Show. More than anything else, it seems the model for the classic sitcom. That's my only definite vote. I lean toward I Love Lucy as a near-lock.

There are shows like Gilligan's Island I feel a nostalgia for. But I think if I were to watch an episode today, I'd wonder where my childhood went.

[rowech]

The Honeymooners is the show that made sitcoms possible. The Dick Van Dyke show took it to the next level and I Love Lucy gave the female lead a voice. Those three to me should be locks.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

My primary exposure to sitcoms of the '50s and '60s was reruns after school when I was a kid. So I'm familiar with all the kids shows that ran on the local independent station. There's a lot I haven't seen.

The show I appreciate today for its writing and acting (except for the screaming little boy) is The Dick Van Dyke Show. More than anything else, it seems the model for the classic sitcom. That's my only definite vote. I lean toward I Love Lucy as a near-lock.

There are shows like Gilligan's Island I feel a nostalgia for. But I think if I were to watch an episode today, I'd wonder where my childhood went.

i just watched one. It's as bad as you'd think. It's bradybunchalicious.

jim Backus was always a favorite tho.

[laser]

I Love Lucy
The Flintstones
Gilligan's Island
The Honeymooners
The Beverly Hillbillies
The Andy Griffith Show
The George Burns and Gracie Allen Show

[Buccaneer]

My primary exposure to 60s sitcoms was watching them when they first aired.

I Love Lucy (1951-1960), 2.39b, 9, 193, 17.0m
Gomer Pyle, U.S.M.C. (1964-1969), 2.22b, 5, 150, 16.2m
The Dick Van Dyke Show (1961-1966), 2.10b, 5, 158, 17.2m
Hogan's Heroes (1965-1971), 1.76b, 6, 168, 13.4m
I Dream of Jeannie (1965-1970), 1.42b, 5, 139, 12.1m
Gilligan's Island (1964-1967), 1.11b, 3, 98, 13.0m
The Honeymooners (1955-1956), 0.50b, 1, 39, 10.5m

[OldGiants]

Since I'm one of the few who watched 1950s and 1960s TV live, I simply wanted to add a few overlooked gems that should be included in the discussion.

First off, I Love Lucy and The Honeymooners are defining shows. I Love Lucy for all the technical innovation Desi Arnaz used to basically invent modern episode production. Seriously, look up what he did.

Sid Caesar's YOUR SHOW OF SHOWS introduced many of the people who wrote much of TV comedy--Mel Brooks, Carl Reiner, Buck Henry.

Ernie Kovacs had a great show going when he crashed and died. Many of his innovations -- such as incorporating White Owl commercials into the flow of the show were so far ahead of his time that we are only now seeing talk of using his techniques today (to get around zapping). The Nairobi Trio still is still quirky fun.

George Burns watching the other characters on a TV set in his room was also a 21st Century kind of innovation.

No love for THE MANY LOVES OF DOBIE GILLIS? The show that gave us Maynard G. Krebs?

The theme song for CAR 54 WHERE ARE YOU? is the "Meet the Mets" of TV. I can still sing all the words to both those.

[CrimsonFox]

Holy crap yes! Ernie Kovacs show and Your show of shows was better and more influential than everything on the list.

Yeah the people who wrote for show of shows made DIck Van Dyke, Mary Tyler Moore, M*A*S*H, Get Smart, The Odd Couple, etc, etc...

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by OldGiants

The theme song for CAR 54 WHERE ARE YOU? is the "Meet the Mets" of TV. I can still sing all the words to both those.

There's a holdup in the Bronx!
Brooklyn's broken out in fights
There's a traffic jam in Harlem
that's backed up to Jackson Heights
There's something something something something
broomstick? something something why?

CAR 54....WHERE ARE.....YOOOOOOOOOU?

[Solecismic]

Voting is open for the '50s and '60s.

[CrimsonFox]

uh..uh...uh...

The Flintstones
I Dream of Jeannie
Jack Benny Show
Hogan's Heroes
Dick Van Dyke Show
Hogan's Heroes
and for OldGiants
Dobie Gillis

[albionmoonlight]

The Honeymooners: A classic.

The Andy Griffith Show: Maybe a slight homer pick from NC, but still a classic family sitcom.

I Love Lucy: The more I read about this show, the more impressed I was. They kind of invented the sitcom here.

Green Acres: I apparently have a thing for shows ahead of their time.

The Flintstones: A parody and an animated show for grownups. Sure, I’m on board.

Gilligan’s Island: Do y’all remember Gilligan’s Planet on Saturday morning cartoons? I can’t say I cared for this show, but—much like the Brady Bunch—the cultural penetration was deep.

My Three Sons: CrimsonFox convinced me.

[CrimsonFox]

funny that I ended up axing from my list hahaha.
maybe I'll reconsider.

I like a flintstones more and more for its bringing animation into primetime and being an animated show that, while having kid elements was still about adults and adult life.

[QuikSand]

My Three Sons
The Beverly Hillbillies
The Andy Griffith Show
I Love Lucy
The Dick Van Dyke Show
Gilligan's Island
The Honeymooners

[Solecismic]

The Dick Van Dyke Show - fantastic writing and range (It May Look Like a Walnut is a classic).

I Love Lucy - one of the great comedic actresses.

Hogan's Heroes - an exceptional cast that could make anything work.

Get Smart - clever writing surrounding the Steve Carell of his time.

My Three Sons - very dated and often very average, but keeping this going for a record 380 episodes (for a scripted non-animated show) was a remarkable achievement.

Bachelor Father - not a show that fits any specific category, but a solid, often above-average representative of the very early family situational show. It didn't hit the rerun circuit, probably because it struggled with scheduling and was never very popular (it's the only network prime-time show ever to air on three different networks in consecutive years). I'd push for it, but it's hard to make a case for a show most haven't ever heard of.

The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis - the teenagers were the show, years before anyone else tried it.

[cuervo72]

The Dick Van Dyke Show (1961-1966), 2.10b, 5, 158, 17.2m
I Love Lucy (1951-1960), 2.39b, 9, 193, 17.0m
The Andy Griffith Show (1960-1968), 3.67b, 8, 249, 15.6m
The George Burns and Gracie Allen Show (1950-1958), 2.15b, 8, 291, 10.8m
The Jack Benny Program (1950-1965), 2.53b, 15, 260, 13.2m
The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet (1952-1966), 3.51b, 14, 425, 11.1m
The Beverly Hillbillies (1962-1971), 3.89b, 9, 274, 20.2m

[CrimsonFox]

Fred McMurray really did have good range. I just watched Jack Lemmon's The Apartment for the first time and he's a downright bastard in that. Different from his Shaggy Dog and THree Sons persona

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

The Andy Griffith Show: Maybe a slight homer pick from NC, but still a classic family sitcom.

At least arguably the most devoted & rabid fan base for any comedy ever, I don't think you have to apologize for including it in the slightest.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

At least arguably the most devoted & rabid fan base for any comedy ever, I don't think you have to apologize for including it in the slightest.

heh It would probably be on the rushmore for that at least. But that's another argument for another day.

One that would beat it would definitely be

Spoiler

Star Trek

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

uh..uh...uh...

The Flintstones
I Dream of Jeannie
Jack Benny Show
Hogan's Heroes
Dick Van Dyke Show
Hogan's Heroes
and for OldGiants
Dobie Gillis

I just realized that I voted for HOgan's Heroes Twice. That just doubles my dedication to the vote of the brilliant Werner Klemperer.

"hooooo-o-o-o-o-o-gaaa-a-a-a-an!"



I was actually going to vote for That GIrl but I just watched it again. Pretty vapid and empty as a show. GOod message. And really the main sitcom innovation I liked was how it used the opening as a sketch to tie in to the opening credit sequence.


ta da

The Flintstones
I Dream of Jeannie
Jack Benny Show
Hogan's Heroes
Dick Van Dyke Show
Dobie Gillis
My Three Sons

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

One that would beat it would definitely be

[spoiler]

Yep, that's why I put the comedy qualifier on it. There are a few shows (Dr. Who for one) that could rival, but not in the niche maybe.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

My primary exposure to sitcoms of the '50s and '60s was reruns after school when I was a kid. So I'm familiar with all the kids shows that ran on the local independent station. There's a lot I haven't seen.

The show I appreciate today for its writing and acting (except for the screaming little boy) is The Dick Van Dyke Show. More than anything else, it seems the model for the classic sitcom. That's my only definite vote. I lean toward I Love Lucy as a near-lock.

There are shows like Gilligan's Island I feel a nostalgia for. But I think if I were to watch an episode today, I'd wonder where my childhood went.

Same here. I probably feel more nostalgia for some show that were much worse than I think they were because I haven't seen them since I was 12.

But there are so many shows that didn't age well or make it into syndication because the recordings in the '50s were still a little sketchy.

Judging shows from the '50s and '60s is weird. There are shows that we laud as the greatest of all time that if they were on the air today wouldn't survive past season one because they just aren't as good as today's shows.

I appreciate influential shows from this era even if I find them unwatchable now. I've never been a "Honeymooners" fan. I liked "I Love Lucy" when I was 10, but it's horrible to me now. Too much Lucy shrieking, too much bad makeup and too many repeated plots. But I give them credit for being the first one to do much of what they did.

[kcchief19]

A quick '90s reaction before I move on to my vote ... Seinfeld, Friends and Frasier were no-brainers. Well done, everyone.

I'm pretty stunned Roseanne wasn't in the final six. I figured it's immense popularity and John Goodman would drive it pretty easily. Not necessarily one of my top 6 shows of this time, but it was different, popular and groundbreaking in its way. I'm guessing Roseanne and the last season torpedoed its chances.

I figured there would be a battle for the 5th and 6th slots, and that was pretty much the toss-up I thought it would be. The Wonder Years, Fresh Prince, Married With Children and Raymond are all middling edge of Mount Rushmore to me. I thought Murphy Brown was better than all of them. But then again, the difference between shows 5-8 is basically a rounding error, so I think there's a group of shows you could consider worthy.

Originally Posted by Solecismic

One of the trends I've noticed is that shows are running for more seasons than in past decades. We haven't seen this since the early days of television.

This might be why quality declines - just not enough story lines in the concept.

Here's an unofficial list of the most episodes of sitcoms in television history. I might have missed a couple. The year a sitcom ended is in parenthesis.

Episodes yes, seasons no. Small quibble, but I think Ozzie and Harriet ran 13 seasons. Bewitched ran 9. Most shows in the '50s aired 30 or episodes a season. 26 was the standard in the '60s and into the '70s. The 22-episode season has been the norm the last 20 years, give or take. But now it's now uncommon for 13-18 episode seasons, especially on cable.

The Simpsons, Family Guy and South Park are almost in a category of their own. I don't think of them entirely as sitcoms.

I think to a degree it's easier to survive for a longer time these days. First is that there is obviously more bandwidth. A lot of small- and medium-size markets didn't get a third network TV station until the late '60s, and didn't get a fourth independent station until the late '70s or early '80s. And primetime wasn't the 22 hours a week it has been for the past 20 years. Local programming and news filled more time in the early days.

As for quality, I actually think television may arguable be better than ever right now. I can list a hundred shows on TV right now better than "Ozzie and Harriet." There are a lot of shows that many people watched simply because nothing else was on.

Take The Brady Bunch. If that show debuted this fall on CBS, it wouldn't make it past six episodes. The writing is corny, the acting is awful and the production is amateurish. Same for Gilligan's Island.

Yes, there's a lot of bad TV simply because there are so many hours to fill and bad stuff will make it through. But I'd say that the favorite show of everyone on FOFC is better than the best show from the '60s.

[kcchief19]

Bewitched: Elizabeth Montgomery might be the most underrated TV actress of all time. She single-handedly carried this for every single episode. Easily the second-best sitcom of the '60s. It wasn't perfect, but it paved the way for every TV show to incorporate fantasy elements after it. Always reliably funny and good for madcap humor. Excellent use of guest stars and supporting characters. It's dated by technology and special effects, but it's comedy still holds up.

I Love Lucy: Arguably the most beloved sitcom of all time. A show I liked as a kid but as much today. But many TV tropes we've seen over the last 70 years originated here. Lucille Ball was definitely one of a kind, and she definitely carried the show. But this show is influential for many reasons other than the program itself. The show was the first sitcom to use a multi-camera format before a live studio audience. To sell the show to CBS, Ball and Arnaz created Desilu Productions. Pretty good chance most of the shows from this era that make Mount Rushmore were Desilu Productions. Through a series of sales, mergers and name changes, CBS Television Productions today is a direct descendant from Desilu.

The Jack Benny Program
The George Burns and Gracie Allen Show
I'm grouping these together for a couple of reasons. They are similar formats and also shows that you don't see a lot of anymore. But both are incredibly influential. Most of American comedy writing for the next quarter of a century descended from these two shows. I wouldn't argue if someone said that the best work of both shows was on radio. Burns & Allen was the popular show, Jack Benny was the "smart" show. Both left big legacies.

The Dick Van Dyke Show: Definitely in the discussion for best sitcom of all time. Beautifully written and superbly acted. Dick Van Dyke and Mary Tyler Moore are among the most acclaimed performers ever on television. Among the best works of Carl Reiner as well. The show was actually cancelled by CBS after the first season, but the producers made a deal with sponsors to keep the show on the air. When the cast and crew decided to go out while the show was still good after five seasons, CBS was begging them to keep going.

The Honeymooners: The show had great moments, and that's what make it a legacy. Was groundbreaking in its way, being the first sitcom to portray a working class America family and show that it could work. My only hesitation with putting it on Mount Rushmore is that I think it benefits from its limited run; 39 episodes are great, but what would this show look like after 150 or 250 episodes? I'm not sure it would hold up as well as its peers. But the show is part of American TV vernacular, and it belongs on the list.

The Flintstones: Yeah, it's a cartoon version of The Honeymooners, but that's not a bad thing. A smart funny animated show that works for kids and adults. Without The Flintstones, I'm not sure you ever see The Simpsons as its own show and all the primetime animation that descended from it.

If I had room for a sentimental selection, next up is Hogan's Heroes. I loved the show, and I can never quite understand why it's not more popular. I get that people say it was too soon and too serious a subject matter for comedy ... but it wasn't long after the show was cancelled that we got M*A*S*H. I think it also suffered in having few roles for women, so I'm sure it skewed heavily male. I always thought the cast was exceptional and the writing superb.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I wouldn't argue if someone said that the best work of both shows was on radio.

This was something that gave me considerable pause when I was making out my list.

[Solecismic]

Voting ends tonight at 11:59 Pacific Time.

[Suicane75]

I'm having so much trouble with this one. I'm realizing that there were a preponderance of shows that I watched and liked, but I just can't quantify how much I liked them and how good they really were. I know I Love Lucy and Burns & Allen are on my list because I've watched a lot of both them fairly recently and have no doubt my aim is true on them. Bewitched I watch a ton of, but I'm not sure to be honest that I like it more than Beaver or my own personal dark horse, My Favorite Martian. I watched the heck out of that show as a kid but haven't seen it in years so my glasses could be rose colored, so it's weighing what I remember vs what I know, as is the case for almost all the shows I would group in slots 3-7.

[CrimsonFox]

Be careful Suicane! If you vote wrong, the forum will explode!

Also the shows you don't vote for will feel betrayed and never let you watch them again!

[Suicane75]

My final seven, knowing full well some of these don't deserve a spot on Mount Rushmore, but more than any other decade where I'd be more discernible for quality over homerism, I just want to take the shows I'd most want to sit down and watch.

I Love Lucy
The George Burns and Gracie Allen Show
Gilligan's Island
The Munsters
My Favorite Martian
Bewitched
The Honeymooners

[CrimsonFox]

suicane's speech has moved me to make a change

The Flintstones
I Dream of Jeannie
Jack Benny Show
Hogan's Heroes
Dick Van Dyke Show
Dobie Gillis
ADDAMS FAMILY

[CrimsonFox]

I'll miss those dancing feet.

[Solecismic]

I worried about including pre-1970s sitcoms, because so few of us (myself included) were even around when they originally aired. So everything is about what was chosen for reruns.

Some of us have a strong sense of history, and that was reflected in many of the votes. But we did have far fewer voters than for other decades.

Thanks to those of you who participated in this exercise.

The 1950s and '60s voting was more scattered than the '90s. We did have our second near-unanimous induction, but as Cheers was denied by a single ballot, so was Ms. Ball.

Here are the pre-'70s inductees to Mount Rushmost:

1) I Love Lucy (12). Crimson denied the redhead. Wrong shade, apparently.

2) The Dick Van Dyke Show (10). Maybe the best writing of any half-hour show we've ever had. Every plot was intricate. I'm a little sad I let my DVD set go. I may buy another.

3) The Honeymooners (10). Generally acknowledged as the first of the true sitcoms. A little crude, but pioneers often hew from raw material.

4) The Andy Griffith Show (7). Would David Hyde-Pierce have been possible without Don Knotts?

5) Gilligan's Island (6). We're down below 50% now, a level only two of the '90s inductees failed to reach. What was great about this show? I think it was that episode when the castaways were just a hair from being rescued, and Maynard T. Krebs pulled a Gilligan. Would this show work today? All the castaways would probably murder each other in the first episode when they realized they were out of 4G network range (not to mention the professor's coconut batteries couldn't possibly match today's Lithium Ion technology). Damn, this show stunk, but it does bring back feelings of nostalgia like nothing else.

6) Hogan's Heroes (5). Our first sub-40% inductee. I probably should have cut this off at four.

7) The George Burns and Gracie Allen Show (4-291 episodes). He died at 100, she died at only 62. They were married for 36 years. She was apparently heterochromaic. But people let her use whatever bathroom she liked anyway.

Honorable mention:

8) The Jack Benny Show (4-260 episodes)
9) The Flintstones (4-160 episodes)
10-14) My Three Sons, The Beverly Hillbillies, Bewitched, I Dream of Jeannie, Get Smart (3).

Nine more shows with one or two votes.

[Solecismic]

Our Mount Rushmost...

All in the Family ('70s)
The Andy Griffith Show ('60s)
The Bob Newhart Show ('70s)
The Brady Bunch ('70s)
Cheers ('80s)
The Dick Van Dyke Show ('60s)
The Cosby Show ('80s)
Family Ties ('80s)
Frasier ('90s)
The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air ('90s)
Friends ('90s)
The George Burns and Gracie Allen Show ('50s)
Gilligan's Island ('60s)
The Golden Girls ('80s)
Happy Days ('70s)
Hogan's Heroes ('60s)
The Honeymooners ('50s)
I Love Lucy ('50s)
The Jeffersons ('70s)
M*A*S*H ('70s)
Married... with Children ('90s)
The Mary Tyler Moore Show ('70s)
Night Court ('80s)
Seinfeld ('90s)
Taxi ('80s)
WKRP in Cincinnati ('80s)
The Wonder Years ('90s)

Others with 40% or more support:

Barney Miller ('70s)
Newhart ('80s)
NewsRadio ('90s)
Three's Company ('80s)

[albionmoonlight]

This was fun and educational. Thanks for running it, Jim.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

This was fun and educational. Thanks for running it, Jim.

I agree. Thank you as well.

[kcchief19]

This was a blast. Great idea, Jim.

Reviewing the list, I think we did a pretty good job. There are only two shows I'd cross off the list if I had a veto (The Brady Bunch and Gilligan's Island are horrible shows with bad acting and poor writing; the only thing these shows had going for them was nostalgia).

I think a couple of more shows (Hogan's Heroes, Night Court and probably WKRP) benefited from our demographics. I think I voted for all three of those shows, so I can only blame myself. But I do think they are all three highly underrated shows that were terrific.

[CrimsonFox]

Out sitcom stars are dying off now.

First Alan Young of Mr Ed ...and Smurfs ...and Duck Tales...etc etc

Now Beth Howland from Alice...

Who's next? Screech?