WW XCIII - Mine Wars - Battle of Blair Mountain - SYMPATHIZERS WIN!!!

[Chief Rum]

Thanks for putting the effort you did into this, Abe. While I think there were some design decisions that I would have liked to see you handle differently, I can see how much you put into it, and I appreciate that. The history stuff was fun and interesting to read, and this game certainly keeps a guy on his toes, never sure what's going to happen next.

I think people are going overboard with what they're saying about playing in your games. You run some terrific games. I'll certainly play in the next one.

This game reminds me a little bit of my political game last summer, from a design perspective. Some great ideas, but maybe a little too ambitious. I think about halfway through that game, I realized I bit off way more than I could chew, but I soldiered on (of course). I marked it down as lesson learned for next time and moved on.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

What got me on you for that was your flip to not go on the mission. Was that something related to a discussion with other wolves at he time?

No, didn't discuss it at all. In fact, I thought Autumn did a nice job of convincing me to reverse and so I did, same thing I would've done as a villager as well. Like I said, knowing Abe's mechanics, I figured there were some valuable goodies out there.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I hate to bring this up, but...

...village decision to kill USFL instead of clap, the decision I said was one of the stupidest I have ever seen a village go, was, as it turned out, probably the most "important" decision for the wolves in the game.

Well, that and clap announcing his bribe price.

FWIW, I was bribeable at $1500.

funny thing is... I wasnt trying to get converted, I was givin up,. and hoping to get more info out there for the village

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Yeah, the decision to cconvert Clap was so logical.

ME and Danny were talking about it and Danny thought maybe it was a bluff and I said c;mon, it's Clap.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

Clap, if it helps, I think Lathum means me and not Danny, and I gave you credit for bluffing.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

No, didn't discuss it at all. In fact, I thought Autumn did a nice job of convincing me to reverse and so I did, same thing I would've done as a villager as well. Like I said, knowing Abe's mechanics, I figured there were some valuable goodies out there.

Actually, I had told PB to NOT flip-flop, but he had already changed his mind before he got my e-mail.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

funny thing is... I wasnt trying to get converted, I was givin up,. and hoping to get more info out there for the village

Wow I missed it when you announced your bribe price.

[claphamsa]

I was expecting to die, and had given up anyways. figured more info would help the village

[Danny]

So you were converted after I saved you from lynch?

[Danny]

or helped save you anyway

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

You're pissed, that I gave you a victory? It's not like my move was without consequences. Someone, from our side, died. Someone, as a matter of fact, who I could trust. That's a real consequence for what I did. It's not like by sending out 0 everything comes up roses for the villagers. C'mon.

Aww...I heart you too 49.

[Danny]

I don't feel as bad if I saved a villager Clap. At least that means I read that correctly as him being a villager, though I know CR didn't like it.

[jeheinz72]

Note: I'm posting this before reading everyone else's comments so excuse me if I'm doubling up.

First off, I both liked and abhorred this game. Probably multiple times. Things I liked

- The overall premise (work units, conversions, etc.)
- The fact it wasn't a cookie cutter game (I don't like ones that are too crazy, too often, this one was just fun in general)
- The general "keep you guessing" nature of it
- Your call on the Phase one thing. I'd have done it the same I reckon.

What I didn't like

- It seemed to me that we did a lot of good things to "earn" the end-game scenario (it was our conversion of two allies and something else that triggered it, IIRC). Which is great. Only catch is, it seemed that end-game was slanted to the wolves (which I realize is historically accurate). It just didn't add up to me.

- While I liked the keep-you-guessing nature, I think it made it VERY hard on the village. Mystique is by-and-large a wolf-beneficial idea. I don't think there was a balancing move on the village side. Yes, we had some nice roles but we also were playing in a game with conversions and who knows what so a role like NTN's becomes difficult when the lock-tight COT is rather small.

- Village not being able to lynch each day. I'm of the ilk that a lynch vote is arguably the villages best weapon. Sure, it misfires often, but it's far and away the best tool for the village to win the game, any game. To take it from us for apparent success didn't seem fair to me. Let us No Lynch only on days after a camp win or something, but don't handcuff us in a game where the wolves had a (seemingly) non-stop litter bag of tricks. It forced the village to play a very passive game IMO and really I don't think a passive game in this ruleset was going to work for the village.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Danny

or helped save you anyway

yes I was converted the day usfl was lynhced

[Danny]

Ah, so I only helped save one wolf from being lynched then in PB.

[RendeR]

I suck SO MUCH at this game.

[RendeR]

I could not be bribed, and I found the fiddle as I posted at some point late in the game.

[Alan T]

My comments are from an outsider following along. So it could very well be that I just wasn't aware of some things that either villagers or wolves knew to make it appear a certain way to me.

For the most part too much felt pre-destined to me. I don't mean that it was pre-scripted or was always going to happen a specific way, but so much happened that seemed confusing to me without answers that it left me at some points trying to understand what type of impact that both sides were having. I think if I had been playing in that case, it would have led to a case of helplessness or just apathy on my part instead of what I think Anxiety was trying to do by giving decisions or actions for people to make.

I was confused a great deal of the time, trying to understand what impact the missions had, how it all tied together and what triggered various events (including the game changing end of game event). I think I probably would have enjoyed it a bunch more if from the beginning that I understood this was more of a strategy WW game where you had the stages that led to a big final fight, and the people you won from missions would help you there, as well as the camps which you converted would add to your manpower total. Then it would have spelled out more to me what each phase was and what impact the various choices had. Instead for me it felt more like everyone was on a whirlwind tour that no one had any idea where the ship was going.

On the good side, I like how Anxiety always gets into his games, he runs them on subject matter that not only he knows but he really enjoys. You can always tell that he puts the extra effort into his games and often you can even learn something from them. That is something that I wish more GMs did (some do already of course).

Anyways, I don't intend on being too harsh in my comments, just was trying to give an outsider's perspective, but like I said being an outsider part of my not having any clue what was going on might have been due to lack of receiving information that others in game had been getting.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I hate to bring this up, but...

...village decision to kill USFL instead of clap, the decision I said was one of the stupidest I have ever seen a village go, was, as it turned out, probably the most "important" decision for the wolves in the game.

Well, that and clap announcing his bribe price.

FWIW, I was bribeable at $1500.

I was sure at this point that we had been bamboozled and Barkeep had been converted or something. I could not believe that was not a wolf move at the end, and could not believe nobody questioned it harshly after. This is the hardest thing about these games to me, is it's hard to tell poor or weird villager decisions from wolf plays as it seems it's usually poor villager decisions.

I thought early on we had a lot of grumpiness, and I forget now who but someone getting pissed and revealing all their role information I thought was really detrimental to us. I'm not sure why everyone was so edgy.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I think I probably would have enjoyed it a bunch more if from the beginning that I understood this was more of a strategy WW game where you had the stages that led to a big final fight, and the people you won from missions would help you there, as well as the camps which you converted would add to your manpower total. Then it would have spelled out more to me what each phase was and what impact the various choices had.

I second this. I think you're right, the game could have stayed just the same but if I had known ahead of time what the overall flow of it was I would have felt more empowered. For example, the day we had the Item mission things felt pretty clear to me -- I could see that there was the temptation of lots of useful items, but the danger of losing the camp. Most of the other missions, since I had not idea what the outcome might be, it was seemingly meaningless what we chose to do. Some uncertainty is good but it would have helped to know what sort of things we were working for.

[USFLTecmo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I hate to bring this up, but...

...village decision to kill USFL instead of clap, the decision I said was one of the stupidest I have ever seen a village go, was, as it turned out, probably the most "important" decision for the wolves in the game.

Well, that and clap announcing his bribe price.

FWIW, I was bribeable at $1500.

I'm hosting a visitor this week, so I don't have much time to read through the comments, but I would have gladly revealed much earlier had anyone that voted for me in the last 10 minutes told me they were suspicious of me earlier. I figured I was pretty well safe at that point, given it was a clap runaway. I don't get why it swung so fast towards me when clap had NOTHING that cleared him, and I had both the arrest (which, yes, could have been wolf/wolf, but IIRC, none of them were) and the "I have a role, it's called this" out there. Those with doubt should have asked earlier instead of jumping on the train. The reason I didn't want to out my ability was that it was rather worthless. I wasn't going to be using it unless we had a decent target, and I actually lacked the ability to use it after night one anyway, because all conditions were met. I figured the term "union firebrand" would make the wolves wonder just enough so that they'd go after me at night, sparing us a better role, or a better player, for that matter. What's worse, is that unless clap was converted by then, it was all Labor going after me. So much for making my death worthwhile.

The only game-related thing I'd have liked to see changed was the ending. It was like a shootout at a hockey game. Technically, part of the same construct, but it wasn't WW any more in any way, shape, or form. Other than that, I liked the game setup, even though I was concerned, like others, that a lot was predetermined. I'm satisfied now that it wasn't that way.

[Passacaglia]

FWIW, I think PB and The Jackal wanted to arrest a wolf to get them cleared, but I was hoping that there would be a lot of suspicion that that would be the case. I think Danny fell in line for that pretty early, but all of a sudden a bunch of other suspects seemed to pop up, plus general confusion about the game in general seemed to just let that issue get dropped.

[RendeR]

I guess I was right when I said that after reading up on the history I didn't think the Labor side COULD win

Great game Abe, loved the historical bits.

[Glengoyne]

This was a fun journey. I'm now convinced that I'm WW cursed. 0 for 3. In this one you guys had the wolves on the ropes, getting them ready for a whooping. Then I came along, and the village was doomed. Doomed I tell you.

I do agree with Chief that the USFL hanging was incredibly frustrating. For me, I think it was because I didn't understand the case against clap. I wasn't sure there was a case against USFL...other than my dysfunctional spidey sense. I know how ineffective that is, so I certainly wasn't relying on that. In the end, no matter how frustrating it was...I didn't change my vote to clap, so I was part of the problem.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

funny thing is... I wasnt trying to get converted, I was givin up,. and hoping to get more info out there for the village

Oh yeah.

When I read that, I said...Okay, he is just fishing for them. I knew my bribe rate was higher($2500), so I figured that the wolves would ignore it. Ooops. I need to take better notes as I go along.

[hoopsguy]

So why did the wolves kill Path on Day 1? Dude hasn't played a game here in at least six months and you clip him right out of the chute? Boo!

[Danny]

I agree

[Alan T]

Yeah, whats up with night killing people early who hadn't played in a while???

[claphamsa]

Damb wolves!!!! kill em all!

[hoopsguy]

At least you had time to make an impact in the game

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

So why did the wolves kill Path on Day 1? Dude hasn't played a game here in at least six months and you clip him right out of the chute? Boo!

I had forgotten it was his first game back in a while, and apologized to him as soon as I realized that. We thought he was hinting at a seer role, though.

[claphamsa]

I knew it was pass! bad wolf!!!

[Danny]

Yes, he is a bad wolf!

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Danny

Yes, he is a bad wolf!

Very true. Ever since Lathum got his title changed to World's Greatest Wolf, I've been thinking of changing mine to World's Worst Wolf.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Sign Up List
1. Poli - Killed by Bull Moose Special - Labor, Union Bodyguard
2. Lathum - Sympathizer, Killed Battle of Blair Mountain, Stage Five

Bull Moose Special. DANG DANG DANG.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You are the weakest link

goodbye.

Originally Posted by Poli

heh, two out of date references even back then to add some class. Nice

Originally Posted by Danny

Poli's got a gun
Poli's got a gun
His whole worlds come undone
From looking straight at the sun
When did his Dubb93 do?
What did he put you through?

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

They say when EF was arrested
They found him underneath a train
But man he had it comin
Now that poli's got a gun
*SHE* ain't never gonna be the sa...aaaaa..aaaaaaaaaaaaaa....aaaaaammmmmmeee

I am totally speechless at this...

[Abe Sargent]

I was shocked at this mega-necro bump

[Chief Rum]

The Bull Moose Special remains one of my favorite moments ever in WW, not so much for its impact on this particular game, but because of the total randomness of it was just awesome and epic. I think Poli still gets pissed thinking about this.

It was so classic, it has spawned numerous references to it in games since then.

[Poli]

shakes head.

[timmae]

"Bull Moose Special" and "Swine Flu Mask" have to be on the top 10 on the all time WW list, eh?

[Abe Sargent]

Probably!

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Poli

shakes head.

Beowulf dude. That's all I gotta say. frickin Beoduked...

[Poli]

Flipping Bull moose.