Game of Thrones on HBO

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by bob

Who is R'hillor?

The Lord of Light. The one that has the red priests. The one Melisandre worships. Stannis' flaming heart sigil.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Can someone weigh in on Jon's right.to be the Stark heir?

Yes, does his being a man but from a younger Stark sibling outweigh Sansa and Arya who are the last living progeny of Ned? I am choosing to assume any attempt to thrust the Lord of Winterfell title on Bran will lead him to refuse it, assuming he gets clear enough to focus on what's happenkng around him.

If Sansa (oldest living child of Ned) is the actual head of the Stark family now, then Jon's bending the knee to Dany ends up being just his own loyalty, does it not?

Yes, of course, this all comes back around when everyone including Sansa bends the knee to Jon as the true Targaryen heir (won't ever happen of course, but I'm talking hypotheticals here).

But isn't Sansa in actuality the best claimant to the seat at Winterfell now? And do you all think that realization when Jon's lineage is outed will come out and a cause a whole separate state of dramatic.affairs?

I don't think anyone really considers him the Stark heir, if you go by technical terms. He was named King, not Lord of Winterfell / Lord Stark. One need not be both.

[Izulde]

Succession runs patrilineally, so it'd be Bran, Sansa, Arya, Jon in that order, as ISiddiqui said. Jon's status as a bastard has nothing to do with it. Even were he legitimate issue, he'd still rank fourth in the succession after Ned's children.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

I don't think anyone really considers him the Stark heir, if you go by technical terms. He was named King, not Lord of Winterfell / Lord Stark. One need not be both.

This.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Even were he legitimate issue, he'd still rank fourth in the succession after Ned's children.

Well if he were legitimate and people thought he was Ned's son, he'd be first in line. Though he was never legitimized by Ned.

[sabotai]

Thought it was a good first episode. It did feel rushed, but good to get the reunions out of the way so they can jump into the action in episode 2.

Like Izulde, I just simply don't buy the romance between Jon and Dany. I totally buy that they are crazy horny for each other, but not in love. Not even a little.

It was really nice to see Sansa call out Jon for the reason he said he bent the knee.


My prediction is that no one wins the Iron Throne. The Night King will be defeated, but the kingdoms will all be devastated, Sansa will lead as Queen In The North, The Seven Kingdoms are shattered, and the Iron Throne will be physically destroyed by one of the dragons. Cersei and Jamie kill each other, leaving Tyrion to take over their ancestral home. A few of the Kingdoms plunge into total chaos as there are power voids everywhere. If Dany survives, she controls Dragonstone, but doesn't have enough soldiers left to control much of anything else, but I do like the idea of her losing her mind and Jon having to kill her. Jon probably dies sacrificing himself to defeat the Night King. Arya ends up on a ship sailing west. Bran heads back North when the war is over to live a thousand years as a tree.

The lands of the living are saved, but it cost so much that civilization has to rebuild nearly from the ground up.

At least...that's one way that I would like to see it end. I have a feeling the show runners will cop out in some way or another, and it'll be a mostly "mega happy ending" that they'll label bittersweet because one bad thing happens.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Jon is King in the North because the leige lords of the Starks declared him so (after understanding him as Ned Stark's bastard). As far as actually lineage from Ned, it would be Bran and then Sansa and Arya as Jon is a bastard.

Jon is actually not a bastard. Rhaegar and Lyanna were legally wed.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Well if he were legitimate and people thought he was Ned's son, he'd be first in line. Though he was never legitimized by Ned.

Memory fail on my part. For some reason, I forgot he was considered Ned's bastard, rather than Lyanna's.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Jon is actually not a bastard. Rhaegar and Lyanna were legally wed.

No one actually knows that aside from Sam, Bran, and Jon.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Jon is actually not a bastard. Rhaegar and Lyanna were legally wed.

I know they were secretly wed, but I wasn't sure that it was legally recognized.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

No one actually knows that aside from Sam, Bran, and Jon.

Indeed. That is why I said I was talking hypotheticals and pointed out that Jon's lineage would have to be out there and acknowledged.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I know they were secretly wed, but I wasn't sure that it was legally recognized.

Sam seems to think it is legitimate. He mentions that Rhaegar got his marriage to Elia annulled and a septon married he and Lyanna before the Seven.

[bob]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The Lord of Light. The one that has the red priests. The one Melisandre worships. Stannis' flaming heart sigil.

Thanks - I didn't specific remember the Lord of Light referred to as that, but like I said, I've only seen each episode once.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Indeed. That is why I said I was talking hypotheticals and pointed out that Jon's lineage would have to be out there and acknowledged.

Well if everyone knew he was really Lyanna's son, then it'd be almost the same as if he was known as Ned's bastard. Though as Lyanna's son he's have a better claim to be 4th in line to the Stark line (after Bran, Sansa, and Arya). However, in this case, since he was named King in the North, the Stark line only really matters in terms of ownership of Winterfell after Jon dies (again) if he has no issue, as he has seemingly claimed Winterfell as his seat. Then again, we are not sure how that currently works.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by molson

It's word for word what GrantDawg wrote in post #12 of this thread more than 10 years ago.

The bots are slowing phasing us out.

Hmm, maybe everybody here is a bot but me.....

I thought I had said that. But then, maybe I am a bot.

[Izulde]

OTOH, Sansa's been referred to repeatedly as The Lady of Winterfell, so it seems like she's being recognized as the actual titleholder. (Bran presumably has either opted out of the title or is disqualified due to his disability).

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Izulde

OTOH, Sansa's been referred to repeatedly as The Lady of Winterfell, so it seems like she's being recognized as the actual titleholder. (Bran presumably has either opted out of the title or is disqualified due to his disability).

True. Jon as King in the North doesn't displace Sansa's title. Albeit when push comes to shove, I'd imagine King trumps Lady - though that was before Jon bent the knee and people are questioning what he even is now.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Sam seems to think it is legitimate. He mentions that Rhaegar got his marriage to Elia annulled and a septon married he and Lyanna before the Seven.

I got the impression it was *the* High Septon himself who annulled & remarried Rhaegar, but maybe it was a regular one but the high septon was just the one who wrote it down (secretly in a diary that Sam stole?)

[Vince, Pt. II]

It wasn't a diary, it was a book of records. Number of steps in the Citadel, number of windows in Baelor's sept, etc. For some reason it had annulments and marriages as well. I thought it was just a maester, not the High Septon, but I'm less certain of that.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Izulde

She already said earlier in the series that she's coming back (when she left in the first place). While I don't know that they'll die at the same time, her and Varys' deaths in Westeros have both been prophecied.

And then there's the whole Dany dream sequence in snow-blanketed King's Landing from much earlier in the series.

I see this going one of two ways:

1. The Night King wins and death rules over all in a wintry wasteland.
2. Plot Armor Jon wins (ugh), Dany is killed, and he's left to rule alone in a position he didn't want, Westeros facing an uncertain future.

Neither one will be a happy ending, but there shouldn't be one. Happiness does not exist in the GOTverse.

those are both happy endings!

go nights king!

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

It wasn't a diary, it was a book of records. Number of steps in the Citadel, number of windows in Baelor's sept, etc. For some reason it had annulments and marriages as well. I thought it was just a maester, not the High Septon, but I'm less certain of that.

It was referred to by the High Septons Diary. Sam asked Bran rhetorically why he would lie in his personal diary, in the final episode of season 7.

Gilly found it initially earlier in the season
Game of Thrones: The Massive Jon Snow Bombshell Hidden in Gilly’s Book | Vanity Fair

[Edward64]

Watching re-run now.

Emilia Clarke looks "aged" (?) I know, I know, shallow observation.

[Izulde]

I've got the urge to start a GOT CK2 AAR again, though I don't know if the mod's been updated.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I've got the urge to start a GOT CK2 AAR again, though I don't know if the mod's been updated.

was already doing that today

Looks like they did some work on it yesterday, but the checksum wasn't lined up

[Izulde]

A 'Game of Thrones' Mystery: What Happened to Tyrion? - The Atlantic

Interesting theory here.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Izulde

OTOH, Sansa's been referred to repeatedly as The Lady of Winterfell, so it seems like she's being recognized as the actual titleholder. (Bran presumably has either opted out of the title or is disqualified due to his disability).

Didn't Jon name her to rule while he was gone south?
I would think that gave her the title until he takes back rule.
(which does not look like it will happen)

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Surtt

Didn't Jon name her to rule while he was gone south?
I would think that gave her the title until he takes back rule.
(which does not look like it will happen)

According to this wiki:

Lord of Winterfell | Game of Thrones Wiki | FANDOM powered by Wikia

House Stark reclaimed Winterfell and this title after the Battle of the Bastards. However, the title of Lord of Winterfell had an unprecedented split from King in the North; Sansa, one of the last known living Starks, inherited the title as Lady of Winterfell.

Also points out that Bran is the rightful heir, but Bran abdicated his lordship.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Izulde

A 'Game of Thrones' Mystery: What Happened to Tyrion? - The Atlantic

Interesting theory here.

Good article, but I have another, more cynical, theory. Tyrion started to give bad advice as soon as the show outpaced the books. GRRM can write cleverness better than Benioff and Weiss can.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Good article, but I have another, more cynical, theory. Tyrion started to give bad advice as soon as the show outpaced the books. GRRM can write cleverness better than Benioff and Weiss can.

Worth noting: The theories aren't mutually exclusive.

As awful as Benioff and Weiss have been at shifting from adaptation to original content, they appear to have accidentally written a plausible character shift in spite of themselves.

[JPhillips]

What's been the point of the first third of this last season?

[hoopsguy]

I would have enjoyed the last two episodes more in a ten episode season, rather than the final season where we were promised "full length movies" for each of the final episodes.

Four episodes to bring this to a close seems nuts.

That said, I've enjoyed the actual hour more than Season 7 and it hasn't been particularly close. If I could shut out the "THERE ISN'T ENOUGH TIME!" voice out of my head, I would be pretty happy with Season 8 up to this point.

[sabotai]

The point of an episode like this one is to remind you of all of the characters you've cared about throughout the series right before they kill off a bunch of them during what might be the last major battle of the series. If a lot characters don't die next week, they yeah, this would have be a pointless, "head-fake" episode from a bunch of hack writers.

[Coffee Warlord]

The first two episodes could have been combined, with several of the dialogue scenes merged into one continuous shot, into one longer episode. Easily.

The only way I can think this plays out is the war starts and ends next week, and we get 3 episodes of North vs South war to wrap it. I don't have a clue how this plays out otherwise.

[Coffee Warlord]

Interesting theory going around though - Night King himself is leading a smaller army straight south for King's Landing, and won't be at Winterfell.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Interesting theory going around though - Night King himself is leading a smaller army straight south for King's Landing, and won't be at Winterfell.

That's what I've been saying to my wife. I think the night king outplays them.

Just a big Night King vs Everyone at Winterfell fight is way too predictable.

[Izulde]

Yeah Episode 2 had way too much bloat when there's only four episodes left. Take the highlights from 1 and 2, splice them together in a streamlined, fat-free Episode 1 and it would have been perfect.

I agree that if it's a 10 episode season, then I don't mind the extended slow set pieces (there were some great moments in this episode). But given the situation, and after I knew the ending in 15 minutes, I kept going, "Okay, cut this, cut this, cut that. Trim that down. Oh that's awesome. Take that out."

[spleen1015]

You guys are too picky. Yeah this week and last week could have been 1 episode. 5 instead of 6 sounds good to me.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

You guys are too picky. Yeah this week and last week could have been 1 episode. 5 instead of 6 sounds good to me.

It would still be 6 episodes. It's just that you would have another episode to make meaningful rather than having two episodes filled with unnecessary fluff.

[stevew]

I’m normally super critical but I’ve enjoyed the last two episodes and such


Also all kinds of dead bodies in the crypt. Could we see headless zombie Ned Stark?

[sabotai]

I don't agree that they could have combined the first two episodes. Not without making it feel incredibly rushed. IMO, the issue is that they've left so many characters alive by this point in the series that they needed two episodes to fit everything in. As soon as they surpassed the books, this stopped feeling like an incredibly dangerous world. They hadn't killed off enough (meaningful) characters to maintain the sense of danger the earlier seasons had.

They wouldn't have needed to kill of any major characters either. At this point, what does Varys contribute? Or Davos? Tormund? So far it's just mostly comic relief. They haven't been streamlining their cast down to the essential players for the main storyline, and so now they have a bloated cast of characters to deal with. The writers needed to kill off or otherwise leave behind some of these characters (like the way Daario was left behind) last season. They just didn't have the balls to do it.

For my more-serious-than-I-gave-last-week prediction, the battle won't be contained in one episode (unless the living lose this round). The idea that the Night King split his army makes a lot of sense. The whole series has been building up to this epic conflict between the living and the dead. They're not going to wrap that up half-way through the final season and then spend the last 3 episodes of the series on their "B" Story. Cersei's plan is to the wait it out and deal with the remnants of whatever army wins. That's not going to happen. "Something" is going to pull her army into the massive conflict, or maybe the Golden Company already has a contract that they won't break that predates their contract with Cersei (a contract to betray Cersei and/or Euron, perhaps) and then that eliminates Cersei's army because she never really had one.

I think Bran's plan will work. The army of the dead will beat the army of the living, a ton of characters will die, but Bran's plan will work. They'll find a way to isolate the Night King and kill him, and then all of his wights will die as well. No more army of the dead. It's just going to take until halfway through episode 6 for it to finally happen.

[bhlloy]

I have to agree with the consensus. I don't think they needed 2 episodes just to get where they got to, but here we are. Doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that there is some great storyline they've got in store for us, we'll see.

Who you got in the dead pool for the next few episodes? Seems like some serious foreshadowing tonight...

Brienne seems the obvious one. I'm envisioning Jaime having to finish her off while a heartbroken Tormund is restrained. I'd say Jaime might sacrifice himself for her but he's obviously got much bigger storylines to be involved in.

Gendry probably isn't making it much longer, although I wonder if they'd have the stones to kill off Arya instead.

I can see both Davos and Jorah being the kind of well loved periphery characters that are both gonna get it. With the handoff of the sword I expect Jorah is going to heroically save somebody before being zombified.

Greyworm is a goner if you've watched any movie, ever.

And of course the million dollar question given the last scene, which one of Dany and Jon is making it to the end?

[molson]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

You guys are too picky.

Yes, wasn't everybody complaining about how they omitted scenes of travel the last few seasons, and that everything was rushed and we lost out on down time for the characters' to be themselves? I thought this was a response to that.

FWIW, next episode is the longest of the season at 82 minutes.

[Radii]

I've liked the first two episodes. Like molson alluded to, last season was such shit to me with the pacing and writing and Jon's plot armor. I've really enjoyed having a couple episodes where I just get to watch the characters interact, and to build up some tension around Sansa, Dany and Jon.

Also they mentioned how safe the crypt is WAY too many times. Zombie Starks are coming.

The theory on some huge misdirection is interesting.

[MrBug708]

Great two episodes. Some people are never happy so no sense worrying what miserable people think. Some many good reunions and moments, which means it's a goodbye moment for sure. Can't wait until next week!

[Vince, Pt. II]

I mean, it's possible to have enjoyed the last two episodes and be disappointed that a full third of our final season ever is basically just set-up work.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

I mean, it's possible to have enjoyed the last two episodes and be disappointed that a full third of our final season ever is basically just set-up work.

This.

[MrBug708]

I liked how everyone has the wrong Valerion sword now.

[bob]

I think the first two eps would have been fine in a 10 episode season. However, the writers are now setting themselves for a lot of criticism if the last four episodes feel rushed or they don't stick the ending.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by sabotai

The point of an episode like this one is to remind you of all of the characters you've cared about throughout the series right before they kill off a bunch of them during what might be the last major battle of the series. If a lot characters don't die next week, they yeah, this would have be a pointless, "head-fake" episode from a bunch of hack writers.

Definitely agree with this. Felt a bit like a reunion show the last 2 episodes, and hard to argue that it's likely to re-invest us in some characters before they get killed off. Still enjoyed both episodes though.

[Kodos]

I think that Arya might be the one to kill the Night King. They made such a big story about having her weapon made.