Game of Thrones on HBO

[molson]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

It's too big to wrap up.

This is probably a big problem for GRRM too, but, the show is actually giving us content and an ending. So we're comparing it against something which even this master storyteller cannot accomplish - even with he leeway of thousands of pages and no outside factors like expense, cast, the network's demands, etc.

I'm personally thrilled to have it and am entertained. Though, I've learned I'm much closer to the intended audience of this stuff than those here or on Reddit.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Catching up on social media now that I've finally finished the episode and I feel like GoT has maybe reached the point that sport video games did years ago, where the better and more life-like they look, the higher people's expectations of realism are. Despite the dragons and undead and such.

I don't think anyone is expecting realism, but I agree 110% with what ISiddiqui and PilotMan just said. This used to be a genuinely intelligently written show, where a bad or tough decision could and would get you killed, and if you were up shit's creek then chances are you were up shit's creek and there was no magic dragon or flying assassin to save you.

It's still good TV, but it's typical cliche ridden TV at this point. The dead in the crypt only get risen late on in the episode when there's time for the night king to be killed just in time so no major characters die down there. Arya goes from a scared child running from the dead to murdering the night king with a pep talk from a friendly janitor. Jon decides to charge the night king in no mans land and gets the entire battlefield resurrected around him but gets saved by the worlds most accurate blast of dragon fire. Characters are teleporting from place to place to be in the exact right time to save major characters and die heroically.

If there wasn't the memory of what the first 4-5 seasons were and the emotional investment at this point, would I still be watching? Just a personal opinion, I'm sure many disagree.

[Arles]

Last I checked, this isn't a historical drama - it's a fantasy show. So, it's not surprising we got a little plot armor for some main characters. I'm not really sure what people wanted? By the comments on this thread, some appeared to want Jon, Davos, Tormund, Jaime and Brianne to die in episode 3. I'm not sure having a final 3 episodes of the three (wo)man weave involving just Danny, Cersei and Sansa would be all that fun.

Had the showrunners had another 2-3 seasons, I'm sure this battle wouldn't have been so abrupt. But, when you have 4 episodes left to deal with the Night King, Cersei/Euron, some potential Danny/Jon ruler drama and all of the normal arcs for Jamie, Brianne, Tyrion, Sansa, etc - you can't use 3-4 episodes on just the Night King.

Overall, I enjoyed this episode and my only real complaint is with the lighting. I get wanting to setup the darkness for a "fog of war" feeling, but we needed a little more light in some of the fighting scenes to see who was actually a good guy vs a wight

[bob]

Originally Posted by Arles

- you can't use 3-4 episodes on just the Night King.:

You can if you don’t waste the first two episodes of the short season. It’s not like the fact they only had 6 episodes left was a surprise to them

[stevew]

I don’t know if I’d have hung in for another season or two after this one. Clarke is such a horrific screen presence. She’s really jarring and not good at acting at all. I mean she’s basically ruined 2 film franchises I love(Terminator and Star Wars). Very much the female Ted McGinley

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by molson

This is probably a big problem for GRRM too, but, the show is actually giving us content and an ending. So we're comparing it against something which even this master storyteller cannot accomplish - even with he leeway of thousands of pages and no outside factors like expense, cast, the network's demands, etc.

I'm personally thrilled to have it and am entertained. Though, I've learned I'm much closer to the intended audience of this stuff than those here or on Reddit.

I'm with you. The hypercritical fans really wear me out. I think I'll probably just check out of this thread and enjoy the last few episodes on my own. It's a great show, and I'm enjoying the final season.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Arles

Had the showrunners had another 2-3 seasons, I'm sure this battle wouldn't have been so abrupt. But, when you have 4 episodes left to deal with the Night King, Cersei/Euron, some potential Danny/Jon ruler drama and all of the normal arcs for Jamie, Brianne, Tyrion, Sansa, etc - you can't use 3-4 episodes on just the Night King.
:

I don't know. Three more (very long) episodes seems like an astonishingly long amount of time to deal with what's left, especially if put in the context of all that was built into developing and now eliminating the Night King army in one episode. What more do we need from Brienne at this point? Tyrion and Jamie finishing things with their sister is obviously a major plot point, but how much screen time will (or should) that actually demand?

This is why I didn't have a problem with the first two episodes being so much "set up". Seemed clear that there was plenty of time to finish things.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Arles

Last I checked, this isn't a historical drama - it's a fantasy show. So, it's not surprising we got a little plot armor for some main characters. I'm not really sure what people wanted? By the comments on this thread, some appeared to want Jon, Davos, Tormund, Jaime and Brianne to die in episode 3. I'm not sure having a final 3 episodes of the three (wo)man weave involving just Danny, Cersei and Sansa would be all that fun.

Had the showrunners had another 2-3 seasons, I'm sure this battle wouldn't have been so abrupt. But, when you have 4 episodes left to deal with the Night King, Cersei/Euron, some potential Danny/Jon ruler drama and all of the normal arcs for Jamie, Brianne, Tyrion, Sansa, etc - you can't use 3-4 episodes on just the Night King.

Overall, I enjoyed this episode and my only real complaint is with the lighting. I get wanting to setup the darkness for a "fog of war" feeling, but we needed a little more light in some of the fighting scenes to see who was actually a good guy vs a wight

It’s hard to fault Benioff and Weiss — whether acting entirely on their own or following what George R.R. Martin told them about his own plans for the hypothetical seventh book — for getting the zombies out of the way early and making the endgame about Lannister vs. Lannister, Clegane vs. Clegane, Bronn vs. anyone not paying him, etc. We have a much longer history with and deeper emotional investment in Cersei (for good and for ill) , and the final episodes can dig back into the conflicts of character and philosophy that have been the series’ bread-and-butter over the years.

[molson]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

It’s hard to fault Benioff and Weiss — whether acting entirely on their own or following what George R.R. Martin told them about his own plans for the hypothetical seventh book — for getting the zombies out of the way early and making the endgame about Lannister vs. Lannister, Clegane vs. Clegane, Bronn vs. anyone not paying him, etc. We have a much longer history with and deeper emotional investment in Cersei (for good and for ill) , and the final episodes can dig back into the conflicts of character and philosophy that have been the series’ bread-and-butter over the years.

Ya, I always wondered how the show (and GRRM, if we get it), would deal with that tension of completely different conflicts. There was always the show and book speculation that everything culminates with the war of the living and the dead, perhaps with the dead winning. But white walkers and the night king were such a distant, occasional, kind of mythological concern for the entire books and movies. For everything to be thrown out and everyone to be friends taking on this common enemy - it would be epic, but there'd definitely be risks too of it just falling flat after we invested in a completely different kind of conflict. Even watching this, and thinking back to the night watch's battles with the wildings (which I'm also watching now as part of a rewatch that I didn't quite finish on time), seemed so quaint and unimportant in retrospect. I personally was rooting for the living to wipe out the dead right here because I didn't want that battle to be the end game, I wanted to move onto the....Game of Thrones.

And of course, I'm into the show and rooting for the living anyway - my girlfriend and I were so tense watching it that the dog actually came over to the sofa to comfort us.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I'm with you. The hypercritical fans really wear me out. I think I'll probably just check out of this thread and enjoy the last few episodes on my own. It's a great show, and I'm enjoying the final season.

This is where I am at also. Entertain me, that is all I ask. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time, squinting to see what was happening.

I don't give a rats ass about battle tactics or how a person got from point a-b.

I read the books, and certainly get the points people are making, but for me who cares. I liked it, it was fun, and I cheered when Arya took him down. Sometimes I think peoples expectations are too high.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

It’s hard to fault Benioff and Weiss — whether acting entirely on their own or following what George R.R. Martin told them about his own plans for the hypothetical seventh book — for getting the zombies out of the way early and making the endgame about Lannister vs. Lannister, Clegane vs. Clegane, Bronn vs. anyone not paying him, etc. We have a much longer history with and deeper emotional investment in Cersei (for good and for ill) , and the final episodes can dig back into the conflicts of character and philosophy that have been the series’ bread-and-butter over the years.

I didn't know Alan Sepinwall posted here.

[AnalBumCover]

Originally Posted by molson

And of course, I'm into the show and rooting for the living anyway - my girlfriend and I were so tense watching it that the dog actually came over to the sofa to comfort us.

We had our own little comic relief in our house during the quietest and most tense moments. My 8 yo daughter was watching Netflix in the other room, and the My Little Pony theme song came up.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Lathum

This is where I am at also. Entertain me, that is all I ask. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time, squinting to see what was happening.

I don't give a rats ass about battle tactics or how a person got from point a-b.

I read the books, and certainly get the points people are making, but for me who cares. I liked it, it was fun, and I cheered when Arya took him down. Sometimes I think peoples expectations are too high.

I learned this lesson with the Last Jedi. My expectations were way too high and I am very disappointed. It changed the way I look at this stuff.

[Izulde]

I actually laughed out loud at the Arya takedown of NK. My thought: "That's simultaneously badass, hilarious, and what I predicted as deus ex machina way earlier in the episode. "

FWIW, I don't have a problem that this was solved all in one episode - especially with only 3 episodes left after this. It was never the most interesting storyline of the series - the intrigue and machinations surrounding the Iron Throne was.

The problem lies in the execution of the episode. The fanservice and plot armor was so heavy, it ruined last week's episode and what could have been a poignant remembrance of the last moments before key characters' demise.

All the buildup and tension of the first two episodes was wasted by having such an insignificant major character death count. And Theon's charge wasn't heroic - it was just stupid and expected. Then again, Theon never was very bright, so that he had a dull, pointless death is fitting.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I would consider Theon just as much a main player as Jorah, if not more.

Martin is never finishing the books, never, and it is too bad.

I've been fervently against the Theon redemption arc the whole time. I get that he's had bad shit happen to him, but he always sucked. And he also always sucked as a fighter, but apparently now he turned into a boss just in time to buy a little more time for & be vocally forgiven by Bran. After being told he was a good person instead of having him charge the Night King they should have had him run away (again.) Maybe some people cared as he was bleeding out after pointlessly charging the Night King, but it sure as heck wasn't me, and the show trying to force an emotional link between that & Jorah dying for Dany was laughable to me. They had 5-6 characters who could've been the one sacrificing to buy time for Arya/Bran, with Jaime and The Hound being the most poetic, but instead all of them were off in the other parts of the castle and survived.

It was as bad as ending the episode with Melisandre choosing to accept death as the final shot. Were we supposed to have an emotional connection with her? She could be useful during the battle vs the dead, but was irredeemable as a person once she'd burned Shireen.

Originally Posted by sabotai

*facepalm*

Good job Melisandre!

It would've been cool if Melisandre's gambit backfired and the Dothraki were thrown into disarray and panicked after she lit their swords on fire. They have the backstory set up with the Dothraki's hatred of Asshai and sorcerer's and it would've been a better way to explain the terrible tactics. Even if they wanted to say the Dothraki were pumped & weren't supposed to be charging that soon they did not convey that at all & even a simple "Why are they charging so soon?" from Dany to Jon up on the ridge as he stops her from flying to help them with close air support would've done the trick.

Originally Posted by sabotai

The Good:

I liked Arya's hide and seek scene. It gave a pause to the action to give us suspense. It changed things up without dropping the intended intensity of the episode. The shot of Jon and the Night King on the burning battlefield looked great.

As a tempo changer cool, and once there were hordes chasing in the hallways the threat felt real, but in the library were we supposed to pretend she had a concussion? We just watched her take on 20+ on the walls, she apparently sneaks past hundreds of wights and every white walker to kill the Night King 10 minutes later, but we're supposed to think she's scared of a few isolated ones or forget she still has a Valyrian blade on her? They set up the library scene just so Melisandre can give her a pep talk?

And at the end, I was hoping Bran was going to pull some three-eyed raven shit to save the day. Instead we get fan service to the most popular character. I wasn't entirely disappointed with Arya killing the Night King, though.

Like I said, I was fine with Arya killing him in that way. Who were the other realistic options, Daenerys (who took her shot and was brushed off), Jon Snow/Aegon Targaryen (who took his shot and was brushed off), or Bran (who apparently decided to get a birds eye view of the battle and then not help anybody with that or any information)? What didn't feel right was there being no help or sacrifice from Jon/Aegon or Bran during the climactic scene. Even if Bran is the one who gives Arya the pep talk instead of Melisandre & tells her she must come to the Godswood, or Bran distracting the Night King and allowing Dany to knock him off his dragon or Arya to sneak up on him it would've been one useful thing he did during the battle.

Originally Posted by spleen1015

It was hard to see what was going on, but I think it was part of the fear effect they were going for. It added some excitement to what was happening for me.

The same director did the Battle of the Bastards where the chaos and confusion really helped and made sense if you were in a medieval melee battle, but it was all one huge melee in the middle of a field, so there was no question of where the action was taking place. Hardhome vs the dead there was the gate, the main hall, and a long road between the gate & the wharf where the ships were, so it was easy to track location. This one was always going to be a bigger scale like the defense of King's Landing in The Battle of the Blackwater, but it felt like there were 4 distinct places at the end (inside the castle, the vaults, the Godswood, and wherever exactly Jon/Dany & at the last minute Jorah ended up).

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I don't think anyone is expecting realism, but I agree 110% with what ISiddiqui and PilotMan just said. This used to be a genuinely intelligently written show, where a bad or tough decision could and would get you killed, and if you were up shit's creek then chances are you were up shit's creek and there was no magic dragon or flying assassin to save you.

It's still good TV, but it's typical cliche ridden TV at this point. The dead in the crypt only get risen late on in the episode when there's time for the night king to be killed just in time so no major characters die down there. Arya goes from a scared child running from the dead to murdering the night king with a pep talk from a friendly janitor. Jon decides to charge the night king in no mans land and gets the entire battlefield resurrected around him but gets saved by the worlds most accurate blast of dragon fire.

Agree here. If the dead had risen in the crypts earlier or even just when they did we ended up getting Davos/Jaime/Brienne/Gendry/Pod etc figuring it out and defending the people there it would have given them something useful to do while the real action was happening in the Godswood. Instead they were all just killing endless and faceless wight's only to be miraculously saved, while apparently everyone in the crypts is just awesome at playing hide and seek.

PS you know who could be a pretty big help to Jon in close quarters combat if he needed to be saved? His pet fucking direwolf that you brought back last episode & showed limping back from the failed Dothraki charge. Having his new pet dragon try and help, but then abandon him to save itself only for Ghost to show up and actually save him would've been great.

[Logan]

I don't have a problem with a lack of major deaths, in general. But I have a problem with a lack of major deaths following the choices that the writers made to get so many of them into that situation.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

Last I checked, this isn't a historical drama - it's a fantasy show. So, it's not surprising we got a little plot armor for some main characters.

... that was the main pushback point of the series' creation, though. GRRM said he explicitly wrote it because he hated that fantasy stories were all cliched and characters having plot armor was one of those cliches he indicated he hated. So it was a refreshing fantasy series where you didn't know who would die. So it is actually quite a bit surprising they went to the plot armor & cliche well.

Had the showrunners had another 2-3 seasons, I'm sure this battle wouldn't have been so abrupt.

The showrunners PICKED this. HBO offered them 2 more full seasons after this one and the showrunners said, nah. They instead decided to do two short seasons for seasons 7 and 8 to close out the show.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The showrunners PICKED this. HBO offered them 2 more full seasons after this one and the showrunners said, nah. They instead decided to do two short seasons for seasons 7 and 8 to close out the show.

That's horrible. I mean, I get there's financial reasons why, but ugh. So short-sighted.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

... that was the main pushback point of the series' creation, though. GRRM said he explicitly wrote it because he hated that fantasy stories were all cliched and characters having plot armor was one of those cliches he indicated he hated. So it was a refreshing fantasy series where you didn't know who would die. So it is actually quite a bit surprising they went to the plot armor & cliche well.

Exactly. And you could argue what we have now goes beyond plot armor and is more of a fanservice than anything.

The last episode also really takes away from the best part of episode 2 as well. The scene where everyone is drinking and Breinne is knighted felt special because we knew some of these people were going to die and it was a nice send-off. I think most people thought that was the entire point of the scene. For no one in that group to die in a battle of this scale is so amazingly unbelievable it ruins that scene.

This show wouldn't have lasted 8 seasons with typical fantasy writing. But that's how we're ending it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

This is probably a big problem for GRRM too, but, the show is actually giving us content and an ending. So we're comparing it against something which even this master storyteller cannot accomplish - even with he leeway of thousands of pages and no outside factors like expense, cast, the network's demands, etc.

I'm personally thrilled to have it and am entertained. Though, I've learned I'm much closer to the intended audience of this stuff than those here or on Reddit.

Maybe ditching the old stuff and going to a more superhero type structure is best. People did seem to like the show.

For me, GoT was different from most. Characters were ambiguous, stakes were always there, and it had some great lore. I'm still entertained by the show. But entertained in the way I am watching the Avengers. There isn't much to it.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Maybe ditching the old stuff and going to a more superhero type structure is best. People did seem to like the show.

For me, GoT was different from most. Characters were ambiguous, stakes were always there, and it had some great lore. I'm still entertained by the show. But entertained in the way I am watching the Avengers. There isn't much to it.

See though, this is the problem. GoT Book 1 was without question, one of most intrigue filled, everyone is grey, you don't know which side is the good side, because everyone is everywhere all at the same time, stories I have ever read. That is what sets it apart. It's not like the Avengers at all. It's pretty much the complete opposite of that. So if that's what it seems like, then something has gone seriously wrong.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Logan

I didn't know Alan Sepinwall posted here.

To my knowledge he doesn't. The rest of the copy and paste didn't catch. But I'm should have given credit for the link that described my thoughts well. *Shrugs*

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I've been fervently against the Theon redemption arc the whole time. I get that he's had bad shit happen to him, but he always sucked. And he also always sucked as a fighter, but apparently now he turned into a boss just in time to buy a little more time for & be vocally forgiven by Bran.

I took it as Bran warging into him and turning him into a badass.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Spending the last several seasons convincing us the 3 eyed raven is important only to watch Bran used as a plot vehicle to get Theon his redemption and Arya her moment sums up the show at this point.

When Bran says to Theon "I'm going now" (or whatever he said), that was really cool moment. Nice set up for Bran to do something epic, and then he does nothing.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by sabotai

When Bran says to Theon "I'm going now" (or whatever he said), that was really cool moment. Nice set up for Bran to do something epic, and then he does nothing.

Yeah he could have warged into Theon and made him run away or something.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

See though, this is the problem. GoT Book 1 was without question, one of most intrigue filled, everyone is grey, you don't know which side is the good side, because everyone is everywhere all at the same time, stories I have ever read. That is what sets it apart. It's not like the Avengers at all. It's pretty much the complete opposite of that. So if that's what it seems like, then something has gone seriously wrong.

I agree with you. It was so unique early on. Now it's just good guys vs bad guys superhero show.

[molson]

That's one of the limitations of a living v. dead plot and a good reason to wrap it up early. Not really a lot of room for shades of gray there. Varys isn't going to be able to go behind the humans' back and make side deals with the dead.

As a result, at the moment, everyone is a good guy on the same side except Cersei and maybe Euron. Though I'm not sure that will hold up for the rest of the season.

And there is a lot to admire about Cersei. Her plan worked. The dead are gone, the Dothraki are gone, the Unsullied and Northerner armies are mostly gone, and she got to sit that shit out and stay at full strength. Like a pro wrestler hiding under the ring during a battle royal. Not a sympathetic move I guess, but, she's acted the smartest and she gets to survive at least to the end.

[Arles]

I'll piggy back what Bug, Molson and others have said about the best part of the show being the politics/infighting of the living. When 90% all band together to fight the Night King, it's not bad. But it just doesn't have the intrigue of the other plots. I'm good with their plan to settle the Night King in 2 and 3, giving us 3 full episodes to figure out how this 8-season journey ends for the living.

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

... that was the main pushback point of the series' creation, though. GRRM said he explicitly wrote it because he hated that fantasy stories were all cliched and characters having plot armor was one of those cliches he indicated he hated. So it was a refreshing fantasy series where you didn't know who would die. So it is actually quite a bit surprising they went to the plot armor & cliche well.

I think that's the direction they've taken since season 6. Hardhome, battle of the bastards, the Magnificent 7 march up north - all have had significant plot armor for Jon Snow. I still find it more amazing that he survived being under a block of ice and surrounded by the dead than that he was able to duck behind bodies/buildings to dodge blue dragon fire.

The showrunners PICKED this. HBO offered them 2 more full seasons after this one and the showrunners said, nah. They instead decided to do two short seasons for seasons 7 and 8 to close out the show.

Yeah, but it's fair for Benioff and Weiss want to move on after 8 seasons. I'm sure they could have done 4 more seasons, but you do reach a saturation point for a story. Let's play out a full season 8 and 9. I'm guessing the living would have lost a battle or two against the Night King and retreated until some kind of fantastic event helped them win at the end of season 8. Then, in season 9, we would have 10 episodes about the final Cercei vs Danny vs Jon where we slowly lose characters, probably get stuck in Essos or Mareen for some reason and all meet at King's Landing for the final few episodes. I'm really not sure that would be any better than what we get this season.

I know a lot of the book fans would love 12 seasons with deep dives on the creation of old valyria - but a vast majority of show watchers never read the books and wouldn't have level of interest.

[stevew]

Since Arya killed the night’s king she can’t really kill Cercei as well. I’m guessing she dies in the cliffhanger of the 4th or 5th episode.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by molson

That's one of the limitations of a living v. dead plot and a good reason to wrap it up early. Not really a lot of room for shades of gray there. Varys isn't going to be able to go behind the humans' back and make side deals with the dead.

See, I think this is a cop-out though. Varys was one of the people pushing hardest to put Daenerys on the throne, but at no point has he started to question that decision despite the fact that she's shown time and time again that she makes awful decisions and would very likely be a poor ruler.

It wouldn't be very difficult or against his character to at least start to question what kind of ruler she would be behind her back and start looking into ways to keep her off the throne.

Originally Posted by molson

And there is a lot to admire about Cersei. Her plan worked. The dead are gone, the Dothraki are gone, the Unsullied and Northerner armies are mostly gone, and she got to sit that shit out and stay at full strength. Like a pro wrestler hiding under the ring during a battle royal. Not a sympathetic move I guess, but, she's acted the smartest and she gets to survive at least to the end.

And I think this is nonsensical too. I mean she's blown up the sept, killed countless people, kind of openly had a relationship with her brother, drove her youngest to kill himself, brought 20,000 mercenaries to kings landing (but no elephants because of the CGI budget), ignored the threat of the undead, stopped payments to the iron bank, and countless more terrible decisions and signs of poor judgement.

The lesson we were supposed to learn from Ned Stark's death was actions (even morally just) have consequences. Yet we're left with the only person that could challenge Daenerys and Jon Snow for the poor decision making title ready to do battle with those very 2 characters to decide the fate of Westeros.

[Arles]

I like that all of the "potential winners" are extremely flawed:

1. Jon - terrible battle plans and execution. From the reckless charge at battle of the bastards to his stupid dirty dozen mission up north. But, it makes sense that he would have some survivors guild/death wish since he was resurrected. His fearlessness also explains why so many groups want to follow him into battle.

2. Cersei - She's been extremely shortsighted and ruled most on revenge/emotion. That's partly why all her children are dead and her family basically abandoned her. Still, she's been ruthless enough to double down whenever put in a corner and (to this point) that has paid off.

3. Danny - She could have ended everything had she left Mareen after season 5 and taken King's Landing during the Sparrow insurrection. She also could have ended the Mareen conflict earlier had she not chained up her dragons. Still, her moves also made sense early on as she wanted to be seen as a "breaker of chains" and not just someone who "burns them all".

4. Bran - Letting the Night King touch him is one of the two events (along with the Dirty Dozen mission) that allowed the army of the dead to make it past the wall.

Overall, I've enjoyed the 7+ seasons and am invested into the story no matter who wins. I'd say that's a pretty big compliment to the people who created and run this show.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by stevew

Since Arya killed the night’s king she can’t really kill Cercei as well. I’m guessing she dies in the cliffhanger of the 4th or 5th episode.

I don't know, wasn't the prophecy about the eyes foretelling? Meryn had brown eyes (so did Walder Frey I believe), Night King had blue eyes, Cersei has green eyes.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't know, wasn't the prophecy about the eyes foretelling? Meryn had brown eyes (so did Walder Frey I believe), Night King had blue eyes, Cersei has green eyes.

I'm hoping another woman with green eyes shows up just so I can say, "*Two* girls with green eyes! What does this mean?!"

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

That's one of the limitations of a living v. dead plot and a good reason to wrap it up early. Not really a lot of room for shades of gray there. Varys isn't going to be able to go behind the humans' back and make side deals with the dead.

Isn't there a lore behind the white walkers? Like how they came to be? What they want? They didn't have to just turn it into a giant zombie horde of bad guys with no purpose. That's gone against everything the show/books were about.

[Groundhog]

re: the eyes thing, Melisandre has been wrong before, but with the direction the show has gone she won't be again. It would be neat if the prophecy made it's way back to Cersei and she ended up engineering it to happen through her own arrogance, but Arya will probably ninja jump off a tower again and finish her off.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

To my knowledge he doesn't. The rest of the copy and paste didn't catch. But I'm should have given credit for the link that described my thoughts well. *Shrugs*

LOL I didn't think you were plagiarizing. I had LITERALLY just finished reading that paragraph in his article before coming here and seeing your post no more than 10 seconds later and thought it was very funny.

[MrBug708]

No worries

Prophecy is merely prophecy, not gospel. Melisandre has been wrong or misguided before

[Mota]

Originally Posted by bob

One more thing - I didn't like the Lyanna Mormont epic death. Didn't feel earned. Even if she is the 1 in a billion 11 year olds that wouldn't have cowered in fear during the attack, it felt like a lot of fan service to girl power. A death like that should have been given to a more important character.

Oh, I guess two more things - I did like Theon finally running to danger vs away from it, as futile a gesture as it was.

From they introduced her, they let us know that Lyanna was never just an 11 year old. She was a true leader of her people. So it doesn't surprise me that she had a good death on the show. I loved that scene.

Also, Theon completed his redemption after several seasons of weakness. Bran essentially released him after his last line. It was the only way for him to go.

[PilotMan]

Melisandre being wrong on everything is completely GRRM. That's the sort of thing we expect. She's completely convinced she's right, and she's done some bad things in the name of being right, but in the end, she's just plain wrong. That's what we expect, and frankly, where I was with her all along.

[ISiddiqui]

Everything? She knew that the battle against the darkness would begin and she knew exactly where to be to remind Arya of her destiny (and that she'd see Arya again). She didn't know who'd be the one that finished the Others (then again it was Jon who got everyone together at Winterfell and Stannis led her to Jon), but she knew enough.

And, arguably she was one of the few who knew the battle against the dead was the real battle.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Lathum

This is where I am at also. Entertain me, that is all I ask. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time, squinting to see what was happening.

I don't give a rats ass about battle tactics or how a person got from point a-b.

I read the books, and certainly get the points people are making, but for me who cares. I liked it, it was fun, and I cheered when Arya took him down. Sometimes I think peoples expectations are too high.

The other part, given this is medieval fantasy, armies of the time did not have a lot of command and control. Heck, look at how the French fought at Agincourt for exhibit A.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Mota

From they introduced her, they let us know that Lyanna was never just an 11 year old. She was a true leader of her people. So it doesn't surprise me that she had a good death on the show. I loved that scene.

I liked the scene also, a good death. I would have liked either Jorah or her surviving though.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I liked the scene also, a good death. I would have liked either Jorah or her surviving though.

In my ck2 GoT games, major houses are always disappearing like this

[ISiddiqui]

According the heraldry in the books, Lyanna has some sisters. Though, Lyanna is not the heir of Bear Island in the books (Alysane Mormont is the heir to Maege Mormont - the She-Bear).

[nilodor]

I liked the episode, but it was a bit anticlimactic because it felt like the big characters were untouchable. Part of what made GoT interesting was you felt like a big character could get whacked at any moment. It made the show really tense and there was a feeling that at any moment someone could be done for. The last couple of seasons there hasn't been this feeling and I never really felt as on edge watching the last episode as I have in seasons prior.

[Radii]

I pretty much agree with PilotMan above, I did enjoy the episode, but the problems everyone mentioned are all there and super obvious.

The one thing I'll argue against many of the comments here is that I freaking loved every moment with Arya including the end. We've got seasons worth of Arya development showing us her training to become a completely badass assassin, and her scenes earlier in the episode were a wonderful payoff to all of that. But the end was just fine to me too. We didn't need to see her sneaking around and exactly what she did, IMO. They earned that surprise (sort of, I think it was pretty expected tbh) ending with all of her earlier development.

The timing of it, and saving basically every important character at the last possible moment - yeah, bleh. But that's what this show is. That was the battle of the bastards, and that was the ridiculous saving of dumbass Jon Snow north of the wall after he made 100 stupid decisions while trying to capture a wight. We're used to that.

To me, this season so far is proving to be far better than the last, despite the issues. This show has long ago become one that doesn't hold up to any sort of close scrutiny regarding plot armor, characters behaving in ways that make sense based on what we know about them, or completely airtight and coherent storytelling. I'm ok with that, I've adjusted my expectations and can still thoroughly enjoy it.

Basically, this show can't live up to the Sopranos, The Wire, that family of Dramas with near perfect storytelling and writing. Not many shows can. That doesn't mean its bad. Telling this story is a massive undertaking, and given the degree of difficulty of pulling this story off at all, I still think this ends up a "very good' show that has done a lot of things that no other show has ever had the opportunity to do. Its just got a few too many issues to take it too seriously or rate it in the pantheon of all time best dramas.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by bob

You can if you don’t waste the first two episodes of the short season. It’s not like the fact they only had 6 episodes left was a surprise to them

This was in reply to a comment about not being able to spend more time on the night king.

To me this is not because of the amount of time left. Its because the night king isn't interesting and in depth episodes with him as the central focal point just can't hold up for long. He doesn't speak, there's nothing but blind aggression for the characters that are built up with any sort of depth to deal with. We don't know if GRRM would be capable of using the extra storytelling he'd get to do in a book to make it feel better, but purely from what the TV show has told us, its a shitty situation. We've got moments across the entire run of the show telling us the enemies north of the wall are the real concern and the stupid politicking is a waste. But in reality that enemy north of the wall is completely one dimensional and making him a main/intense focus of the show for more than a single battle episode like this one would kill the momentum of the show and turn it into the walking dead, imo. Given all the buildup of this threat, but the lack of any sort of interesting anything with the night king, it seems to me that the only two options would be to just run the show into the ground to live up to the gravity the show put on the threat of the night king, or to have it end the way this episode did leaving many people to say "wait? That was it? Threat over in less than a half day?" I'll take that second option 10 out of 10 times.

[whomario]

I would have liked some sort of Flashback or Flash Forward about the Night King and his motivation/goal, that moment where Bran turns and they look at each other seemed a perfect setup for that. Cue Flashback/forward, back to reality, long look of either understanding or horror from Bran, Arya swoops in. Alas ... I think the big mistake regarding the NK was the show not comitting to either fleshing him out as a character OR leaving him be an utter metaphore-type being. Once they introduced backstory (creation, the baby thing etc) and once they started giving him moments of personality (like at hardhome) we expected more revelations and during the battle they fully had him act like a “he“ rather than an “it“ while kinda not having earned it/set it up properly.

Overall i loved the first 15 and last 10 minutes. In between it felt like sth to be endured (the Arya scenes broke up that monotony though), but that might have been partly the point.

[Izulde]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/01/enter...rnd/index.html

Made me tear up a bit here at work.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Radii

I did enjoy the episode, but the problems everyone mentioned are all there and super obvious.

And I was in this camp for most of the episode. Despite how harsh I sounded earlier, I was close to still liking the episode overall. It's just that around maybe 3/4ths of the way through, one too many "saved in the nick of time" shots happened and it became abundantly clear that no character that was shown to be in danger was in any actual danger. After that, the episode held no tension or suspense for me.

The one thing I'll argue against many of the comments here is that I freaking loved every moment with Arya including the end. We've got seasons worth of Arya development showing us her training to become a completely badass assassin, and her scenes earlier in the episode were a wonderful payoff to all of that. But the end was just fine to me too. We didn't need to see her sneaking around and exactly what she did, IMO. They earned that surprise (sort of, I think it was pretty expected tbh) ending with all of her earlier development.

Arya dealing the final blow is great. She's basically "Sneak 100" now, they've established that pretty clearly. What I hated was that they've spent years building up the Night King and his conflict with Bran and with Jon Snow, and in the end, both of them ended up being pretty much inconsequential to the outcome of that storyline. Bran, who can warg as well as Arya can sneak, just sat there as bait and Jon yelled at a dragon. Just felt unfulfilling to me.

Basically, this show can't live up to the Sopranos, The Wire, that family of Dramas with near perfect storytelling and writing. Not many shows can.

It's in the LOST category for me now. First several seasons were excellent, but it feels like they're just lazily coasting towards the finish line.