NFL Week 10

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

talking about something else that does not belong in this thread.

Again, absolute bullshit.

This IS what is important. Not whether dat boy can run so good.

[Kodos]

I think it is possible for Vick to eventually earn redemption. I don't think he has done it yet, nor is he particularly close. It would take a lifetime of good works and showing that he has truly changed and accepts that what he did was horrifying and wrong.

Nothing he does on the football field will move him one inch closer to redemption.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I think it is possible for Vick to eventually earn redemption. I don't think he has done it yet, nor is he particularly close. It would take a lifetime of good works and showing that he has truly changed and accepts that what he did was horrifying and wrong.

Nothing he does on the football field will move him one inch closer to redemption.

And there are people who will simply never forgive him due to their own hangups.

[molson]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Does it matter what his motivation for not doing something wrong is?

I'm not any Vick crusade and I loved watching him play last night, but hell ya his motivation matters. It might keep him in line for a while, but then, that onion article a couple of posts up says it way better than I could. A guy who's capable of that might be able to reform, but he's still always going to be closer to terrible actions then the rest of us. That's why we have parole supervision and sentencing enhancement for repeat offenders.

[Alan T]

I don't understand this thread at all.

Is it not ok for some of us to not condone the actions that some NFL players have done, and use them as negative examples for our kids of what not to do? Is it not ok for us to look down on some NFL players because of crimes they have committed regardless of how good or bad of a player they may be?

Vick surely falls into this category, other players in the past that I view similarly off the top of my head would have been the Green Bay TE Chmura, Ray Carruth, etc.

I don't understand why people are leaping all over themselves to try to defend Vick's past actions.

If people want to root for their football team which Vick is a QB, fine I'm not going to jump up in arms about that. Just don't explain why Vick must now be a reformed person just because he is playing football well. And more importantly don't jump all over me because I don't think too much of him.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Matthean

And there are people who will simply never forgive him due to their own hangups.

That's their choice too, and I wouldn't call that a "hang up". Someone's not a bad person if they can't love and cheer Vick like nothing happened. It's a personal choice. But nobody owes him forgiveness or anything else. That's something he'll have to live with.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I don't understand why people are leaping all over themselves to try to defend Vick's past actions.

That one's easy - He's an exciting football player again, and there's a lot of Eagles fans.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm not any Vick crusade and I loved watching him play last night, but hell ya his motivation matters. It might keep him in line for a while, but then, that onion article a couple of posts up says it way better than I could. A guy who's capable of that might be able to reform, but he's still always going to be closer to terrible actions then the rest of us. That's why we have parole supervision and sentencing
enhancement for repeat offenders.

Isn't this a contradiction? Parole supervision and sentencing prevent actual acts of recidivism, but I doubt they control the thoughts and attitudes of offenders.

While attitude/motivation/dreams/thoughts are certainly linked to acts of recedivism, I doubt parole officers can care about or control whether child molesters dream of children at night. Rather, sentencing/supervision is meant to curb acting on those impulses.

I guess what EagleFan is saying is that Vick can think or dream about dog killing all he wants, but do we really care why he does not start up a ring again so long as he doesn't actually do it?

[RedKingGold]

FWIW, I don't think anyone is defending Vick's past actions. That's a pretty far leap...even for a ton of Eagle's fans.

If anything, Eagles fans are trying to argue that Vick may have reformed himself. Where posters are getting "defending Vick's past actions" from this thread is beyond me.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I don't understand why people are leaping all over themselves to try to defend Vick's past actions.

If people want to root for their football team which Vick is a QB, fine I'm not going to jump up in arms about that. Just don't explain why Vick must now be a reformed person just because he is playing football well. And more importantly don't jump all over me because I don't think too much of him.

I don't defend his previous actions. I don't know how well reformed his is and neither can the haters. If he does do something stupid, then I'll say he deserves whatever he has coming to him. I also wouldn't slap down a contract extension in front of him after what I would have defined as an aberration game.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

I guess what EagleFan is saying is that Vick can think or dream about dog killing all he wants, but do we really care why he does not start up a ring again so long as he doesn't actually do it?

If we're talking about him truly redeeming himself, very much so. If we just want him to toe the line and not kill any more dogs (even though he'd like to), then no.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Isn't this a contradiction? Parole supervision and sentencing prevent actual acts of recidivism, but I doubt they control the thoughts and attitudes of offenders.

While attitude/motivation/dreams/thoughts are certainly linked to acts of recedivism, I doubt parole officers can care about or control whether child molesters dream of children at night. Rather, sentencing/supervision is meant to curb acting on those impulses.

I guess what EagleFan is saying is that Vick can think or dream about dog killing all he wants, but do we really care why he does not start up a ring again so long as he doesn't actually do it?

I just mean that with those things, we acknowledge that criminals are more dangerous than other people. Someone without a criminal record, we might given them the benefit of the doubt, but once they have a crime like this on their record, the justice system is just going to look at them differently, forever. (You're right though, there's a million ways to look to look at criminal punishment). I have no idea what the recidivism rate is for rich dog torturers, but there's at least a decent chance that Vick is still involved in this stuff right now. The government can't punish him for that, but the public doesn't have to ignore that possibility.

The public penalty is always going to last longer than the government's. The county prosecutor one county over from me ripped off the county for $300,000 and then resigned. He's hiding in his house somewhere while the investigators try to figure out if what he did was technically illegal, or just a breach of a contract. If he doesn't get disbarred, any time he tries to practice law for the next decade, this is all going people are going to talk about. That his fault, not the people doing the talking.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I don't think the Eagles can be beaten with Mike Vick.

Probably not with this Michael Vick. The hangup on him was that he wasn't a good passer. But from what I've seen, he has turned into a pretty damn good one. I don't know if he got better, Reid is just a better coach, or he has more weapons, but he is miles ahead of where he was in Atlanta from a throwing standpoint.

I do think it's going to be key to keep those receivers healthy. He utilizes them well and I think their deep play ability gives him more room to scramble. It'll be interesting to see if someone can put together a defense to keep him in check, but they may be last years version of the Saints.

[RainMaker]

Oh, and Vick's performance apparently tied Jerry Rice for the highest fantasy output in one game. Believe it's 52 points based on standard fantasy scoring systems.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/fo...ory?id=5811462

1. Clinton Portis, 2003 Week 14, 54 fantasy points: This one meant about as much to his Denver Broncos as it did to his fantasy owners; without this win versus the eventual division-winning Kansas City Chiefs, the Broncos probably wouldn't have reached the playoffs in 2003. It was his fifth 100-yard rushing effort in a streak of six to conclude the season, and in the process, he upstaged an even bigger (at the time) fantasy stud, the Chiefs' Priest Holmes (44 rushing yards, two touchdowns).

2. Shaun Alexander, 2002 Week 4, 52: Ah, a Sunday night football classic. Surely you remember this one? In only the second game at Qwest Field (then Seahawks Stadium), Alexander set an NFL record with five touchdowns in the game's first half, establishing his reputation as a premier prime-time performer. He played 14 night games in his career, totaling 13 touchdowns.

3. (tie) Michael Vick, 2010 Week 10, 49

3. (tie) Mike Anderson, 2000 Week 14, 49: Huh? Who? You might remember this name as another product of the Mike Shanahan running back juggernaut; each season, it seemed like the theme was "new back, same stats." Anderson snuck in there with one monster season sandwiched between the best from Terrell Davis and the aforementioned Portis, and on this day, he was a record setter -- he set a rookie rushing record with 251 yards versus the New Orleans Saints.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Matthean

And there are people who will simply never forgive him due to their own hangups.

I don't have to forgive him. He didn't commit a crime against me and I'm not a victim.

And it's not really a hangup. A lot of people in medical field believe that you can't cure someone who is a sociopath. It's just something they are and something that is part of them. You can get them to function properly in the world, but you can't force them to feel empathy.

He paid his debt to society. But I know what he is and a fancy public relations firm isn't going to convince me otherwise.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I think it is possible for Vick to eventually earn redemption. I don't think he has done it yet, nor is he particularly close. It would take a lifetime of good works and showing that he has truly changed and accepts that what he did was horrifying and wrong.

Nothing he does on the football field will move him one inch closer to redemption.

This is where I'm at. That being said, I couldn't help but enjoy that game last night.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Isn't this a contradiction? Parole supervision and sentencing prevent actual acts of recidivism, but I doubt they control the thoughts and attitudes of offenders.

While attitude/motivation/dreams/thoughts are certainly linked to acts of recedivism, I doubt parole officers can care about or control whether child molesters dream of children at night. Rather, sentencing/supervision is meant to curb acting on those impulses.

I guess what EagleFan is saying is that Vick can think or dream about dog killing all he wants, but do we really care why he does not start up a ring again so long as he doesn't actually do it?

FWIW I care about his motivation almost equally as much.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Best fantasy football performances since 2000 - Fantasy Football - ESPN

I don't get how he's getting only 49 points for Vick. 333 yards with 4 touchdown passes. 80 yards rushing with 2 touchdowns. There is no scoring system I could come up with to get that number. He had 59 points in one of my leagues and 53 in the other.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't have to forgive him. He didn't commit a crime against me and I'm not a victim.

And it's not really a hangup. A lot of people in medical field believe that you can't cure someone who is a sociopath. It's just something they are and something that is part of them. You can get them to function properly in the world, but you can't force them to feel empathy.

He paid his debt to society. But I know what he is and a fancy public relations firm isn't going to convince me otherwise.

Hell yea!

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't get how he's getting only 49 points for Vick. 333 yards with 4 touchdown passes. 80 yards rushing with 2 touchdowns. There is no scoring system I could come up with to get that number. He had 59 points in one of my leagues and 53 in the other.

Best I can come up with is no fractional points and passing TDs only worth 4 points.

333 yards = 13 points @ 25 yards per point
4 pass TDs = 16 points
80 yards = 8 @ 10 yards per point
2 rush TDs = 12

49 points

[ISiddiqui]

I didn't watch the game, but read the reports of it this morning and WOW is all I have to say. I think this is more a product of Vick actually having some weapons around him and a natural maturation as a passer. He always had the ability (I believe he led the country in passer rating at VTech in one of his years), but you have to have some talent around you. Also the offensive game plans in Atlanta sucked.

Also I do feel that Vick has paid his debt and seems genuinely contrite. I have forgiven him and I think that jail was what was needed to (for lack of a better word) "scare him straight". When you are handed everything and told everything is ok because of your otherworldly talent, are we surprised when pro athletes act in anti-social ways? I think Vick may have learned his lesson by getting humbled in the way he was.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Best I can come up with is no fractional points and passing TDs only worth 4 points.

333 yards = 13 points @ 25 yards per point
4 pass TDs = 16 points
80 yards = 8 @ 10 yards per point
2 rush TDs = 12

49 points

That works. I've never seen passing TDs at 4 though, only 5 and 6. But a quick search shows that some leagues I guess do it that way.

Either way it looks like the greatest fantasy performance by a QB ever. Next closest was George Blanda in 1961 (he had 7 extra points) and Y.A. Tittle in 1962.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I always thought 4 pts for passing was "the standard". At least when I started playing back in '02.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

NTO pretty on the nose. Redskins can cut McNabb after the season after only an additional $3.75M.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/s...e=NFLHeadlines

[Vince, Pt. II]

Delani Walker on playing with Troy Smith - "When he's in there it's like the streetlights are on, our moms are on the front porch calling our names and we have one play left."

While I think way too many people are jumping on the Troy Smith bandwagon a little too quickly, that's an awesome quote.

[RomaGoth]

I don't care if Vick wins the super bowl, puts up 60 fantasy points a game, and cures world fucking hunger. He is still a piece of shit dog killer, and no amount of prison time or incredible qb statistics will ever change that. Of course, this is how I view it. I know there are others whom feel differently, and that is ok too.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

and cures world fucking hunger.

I'm pretty sure that if he cures world hunger we could call it even. Unless it is with Soylent Green.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Mustang

I'm pretty sure that if he cures world hunger we could call it even. Unless it is with Soylent Green.

I guess I would at least consider it......

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Mustang

I'm pretty sure that if he cures world hunger we could call it even. Unless it is with Soylent Green.

No, it would be Soylent Lassie.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

No, it would be Soylent Lassie.

I considered going there, but I passed.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Mustang

I considered going there, but I passed.

Trust me to go for the tasteless funny.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

NTO pretty on the nose. Redskins can cut McNabb after the season after only an additional $3.75M.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/s...e=NFLHeadlines

yeesh. that's not even an extension that's a parting gift.

hopefully skins fans can back away from the ledge now.

[Sun Tzu]

What would this thread look like if Vick were playing on the Skins, and had just lit up the Philadelphia Eagles for 59 points?

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

hopefully skins fans can back away from the ledge now.

Or... Dan Snyder is just an absolute genius because guess who else is going to need a contract here soon? Ya.. Vick.

Think an agent won't see that and think Vick should get that kind of money too?

Pretty sneaky sis....

Granted, I'm probably giving Snyder too much credit for his evil genius plan.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Steelers cut Jeff Reed, sign Shaun Suisham.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Think an agent won't see that and think Vick should get that kind of money too?

Which sounded like pretty much the conversation currently underway on Cowherd's show (the $60m figure, not that it was a clever ploy)

Granted, I'm probably giving Snyder too much credit for his evil genius plan.

Yeah, I think so. Much better chance that Snyder is simply batshit crazy.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Matthean

I don't defend his previous actions. I don't know how well reformed his is and neither can the haters. If he does do something stupid, then I'll say he deserves whatever he has coming to him. I also wouldn't slap down a contract extension in front of him after what I would have defined as an aberration game.

This is the thing that boggles my mind about him this year. This WAS NOT an aberration game. You could say it's an abberation season. . . but not a game. He's completing 63% of his passes, 11TD, 0 INT, 0 lossed fumbles, 8.8 yards per pass attempt and averaging 7.8 yards a carry on the ground to boot.

I wouldn't give him an extension yet. Not by a long shot.

I'm also torn on so many levels by him. On one hand, I love animals. I love dogs. What he did is sickening. On the other hand, I do know that how you are brought up alters what you think are acceptable and unacceptable. I also believe in forgiveness. Then I also really, really dislike certain athletes because they continually do the wrong thing and the dog fighting thing was not Vick's only problem. I also see how Vick's brother was and really question the environment they were raised in.

Ugh. . . I'm torn. I don't know weather to forgive, hate, cheer for failure, cheer for redemption. . . the whole thing just messes me up on both a moral and entertainment level. I can see where Jon is coming from and agree with it and I can see where others are coming from and agree with them. Why couldn't he have just come back as the same crappy QB he used to be and make all of this a non issue? Since when to guys go away to prison come back as pro bowl caliber players?

[jeff061]

On the other hand, I do know that how you are brought up alters what you think are acceptable and unacceptable.

this is what I tend to believe. I also think that he has "changed" in that now he truly does understand just how unacceptable what he was doing is. Something he had no inkling of before.

Do I think he still finds what he did disgusting? No, but I do feel he is more conscious about it. I leave it to others to decide whether to back him or not.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Since when to guys go away to prison come back as pro bowl caliber players?

I am with you on your take. But answer this question, it is simple. He always had this talent, but didn't do the work to take the next step. It took him getting into this trouble to realize he needed to work. It is sad that he had to hit bottom to wake up, and I wouldn't put my money on him staying at this level of maturity. He might, and I hope he does. But he could easily get the big contract, be named king of a franchise, and slip back into "entitlement" mode. I honestly hope not, because I believe in second chances, but he is a big time risk for whoever pays him his next contract.

[spleen1015]

A lot of folks are saying the dog fighting was something that was a part of his upbringing, he was who he was because of that.

My upbringing wasn't very good. Granted, I haven't done the things he has, but my attitude towards things for a long time were due to the upbringing I had. Once I got away from my parents and that life, I began to realize that what I was taught wasn't 'right'. It took meeting my wife and her help before I was able to figure a lot of this out.

Maybe him getting caught was the moment that he needed to figure out that what he was doing was bad. I believe that he has changed because getting caught was his point of realization.

I could be 100% wrong, too. I didn't believe Tiger Woods would be someone to do what he has done either.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by TroyF

This WAS NOT an aberration game.

I think it is considering I don't expect him to score 6 TDs and them to put up 59 points every week. This carries about as much weight as Oakland, or the Giants going on the road and putting up 59-14 and 41-4 scores respectively, or Green Bay embarrassing Dallas to the tune of 45-7. One team fully came to play. One team crapped the bed, and then the next week happened. The three teams that got smoked were 2-1 the next week.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Steelers cut Jeff Reed, sign Shaun Suisham.

This is irritating. I am in a fantasy league where you get $100 and have to bid for free agents. I like it, but I am already down to like $4 and Jeff Reed is my kicker. Now I have to spend one of my precious few remaining dollars on a kicker. Come on!

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

What would this thread look like if Vick were playing on the Skins, and had just lit up the Philadelphia Eagles for 59 points?

There would be vomit all over this thread...oh wait

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

This is irritating. I am in a fantasy league where you get $100 and have to bid for free agents. I like it, but I am already down to like $4 and Jeff Reed is my kicker. Now I have to spend one of my precious few remaining dollars on a kicker. Come on!

On a positive note, you are rid of those missed 26 yard FGs that couldn't be helping you.

[stevew]

I fear for the Sheetz paper towel dispensers.

Fuck Reed, he isn't money anymore.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Best I can come up with is no fractional points and passing TDs only worth 4 points.

333 yards = 13 points @ 25 yards per point
4 pass TDs = 16 points
80 yards = 8 @ 10 yards per point
2 rush TDs = 12

49 points

My league discounts QBs even more by only awarding a point per 33 yards of passing so I believe he only scored 46 points in our league.

[cuervo72]

And here I thought the Cowboys-Giants game was the darkest moment in NFL history.

*shurg*

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Matthean

I think it is considering I don't expect him to score 6 TDs and them to put up 59 points every week. This carries about as much weight as Oakland, or the Giants going on the road and putting up 59-14 and 41-4 scores respectively, or Green Bay embarrassing Dallas to the tune of 45-7. One team fully came to play. One team crapped the bed, and then the next week happened. The three teams that got smoked were 2-1 the next week.

OK, so the HUGE numbers he put up are an abberation. Obviously, he isn't scoring six TD's every week.

But he has played at a pro bowl level in every other week this year. He's started and completed 3 other games this year. He accounted for 8 TD's in those games. The Eagles averaged over 30 points a game in those three tilts. His QB rating in those games: 108.0. 119.2, 93.7.

So again, I understand last night was higher than normal. But I also understand he's been playing at a high level even before last night.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

This is irritating. I am in a fantasy league where you get $100 and have to bid for free agents. I like it, but I am already down to like $4 and Jeff Reed is my kicker. Now I have to spend one of my precious few remaining dollars on a kicker. Come on!

Why don't GMs think about the fantasy players?!?!11!