Ebola

[flounder]

If you quarantine all health workers who treat Ebola patients, guess what? You're not going to find any health workers who will treat Ebola patients. When you don't have anyone to treat Ebola patients, you get what's happening in Africa right now. That's the nightmare scenario, not that you'll catch Ebola from some random nurse on the bus.

[path12]

Only read the last couple pages but I wonder: what was it that made us such a deeply frightened people these days? Was it 9/11? The internet? Media?

Probably a little of all of them. It's weird.

[Buccaneer]

My answer? Fear of death and lack of hope.

[molson]

I don't think it's anything new, I think there's something about human psychology that disproportionately and irrationally fears certain things that are outside our comfort zone. Flying on a plane, infectious diseases, violent crime, and about a million oddly specific phobias. And we underestimate the risk of things we have more comfort with like driving, or falling in the bathroom. I think there's a term for that phenomenon.

[JPhillips]

There's been a lot of research showing that people are generally terrible at risk assessment.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by flounder

If you quarantine all health workers who treat Ebola patients, guess what? You're not going to find any health workers who will treat Ebola patients.

In judging from people that I have talked to, I think this could be the winner.

I'm not sure I would treat a second Ebola patient if I know another 21 day quarantine was looking at me in the face.....even if I followed all the correct steps.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

There's been a lot of research showing that people are generally terrible at risk assessment.

This is a biggie. A massive biggie.

The standard fear mongers do a wonderful job of playing it up. (Media, politicians, that one lady who knew this one guy who was the fourth cousin of this other guys friend who. . . you get the picture)

Then you throw in some standard bureaucratic incompetence. (sure we have great protocols at this hospital for ebola. . . You can travel, the fever isn't THAT high. . . You spent time in Africa and you have a fever, a loose stool and some sweating, go home and take two of these. Call me in a few days if this persists. . .)


What you get is a cocktail of fear, anger and misinformation.

Now, you can pretend the three things listed above are going to go away tomorrow if you want. The reality is that they won't. Attempt to come up with a strategy that accounts for the three things above and stop saying it SHOULD be like this. It isn't and it never will be.

All I know is this nurse who threw a fit had every right to throw a fit over her treatment. If she does go out in public and someone catches the virus from her, ebola will only be the first problem she'll have to deal with.


Damn NY and NJ all to hell. They could have made the forced quarantine a win/win for everyone. They could have won the PR battle, kept the doctors/nurses happy and started educating on the back end. Instead they butchered this up badly. Thanks guys.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miked

Even if the will of the people is misguided and ignorant? I would imagine the average mouth-breather would fall for these types of shenanigans, but you do at least seem slightly more intelligent than the average person. How do you equate your lack of stupidity with the stupidity of your views?

There is zero meaningful benefit to allowing anyone from an outbreak country in right now, there simply isn't. That's an abdication of responsibility to national security that is unconscionable

The utter & complete irresponsibility of allowing those exposed to Ebola to wander the streets unimpeded is nothing short of insanity.

[EagleFan]

People are insane. They had a meeting at my daughter's school in which they were discussing flu, enterovirus (sp?) and ebola. There were a couple people who were completely terrified of ebola. One woman kept asking questions that the presenter had discussed just minutes prior.

She had a whole slide detailing how ebola can't be transmitted by mosquito bites like other diseases can. As she was on the next slide the woman interrupts with "what about mosquito bites, can I get it from that?"...

This woman was insane, at the end of the meeting she comes up with "I heard that the government has stock piled coffins and hid them in locations around the country, big enough for mass burials of up to 10 children or 6 adults in a coffin, over half a million coffins around the country. What aren't you telling us about this outbreak?"

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by TroyF

This is a biggie. A massive biggie.

The standard fear mongers do a wonderful job of playing it up. (Media, politicians, that one lady who knew this one guy who was the fourth cousin of this other guys friend who. . . you get the picture)

Then you throw in some standard bureaucratic incompetence. (sure we have great protocols at this hospital for ebola. . . You can travel, the fever isn't THAT high. . . You spent time in Africa and you have a fever, a loose stool and some sweating, go home and take two of these. Call me in a few days if this persists. . .)


What you get is a cocktail of fear, anger and misinformation.

Now, you can pretend the three things listed above are going to go away tomorrow if you want. The reality is that they won't. Attempt to come up with a strategy that accounts for the three things above and stop saying it SHOULD be like this. It isn't and it never will be.

All I know is this nurse who threw a fit had every right to throw a fit over her treatment. If she does go out in public and someone catches the virus from her, ebola will only be the first problem she'll have to deal with.


Damn NY and NJ all to hell. They could have made the forced quarantine a win/win for everyone. They could have won the PR battle, kept the doctors/nurses happy and started educating on the back end. Instead they butchered this up badly. Thanks guys.

I don't think it's too much to ask that our politicians behave a little more responsibility. Maybe after next Tuesday they'll stop trying to capitalize on our ebola fears.

[JPhillips]

Why aren't we quarantining the people treating the doctor in NYC? Why are they allowed to go home?

The quarantine made no sense other than as a publicity stunt.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I thought everybody wanted to see bi-partisan efforts?

The actions of governors in now 6 states cuts across political lines. What's been tone deaf here is the federal government.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Why aren't we quarantining the people treating the doctor in NYC? Why are they allowed to go home?

The quarantine made no sense other than as a publicity stunt.

Presumably because the environment is contained. But, again, if the protocol isn't enough, and nurses treating this doctor become infected, then changes are warranted - just as this doctor's infection and brief period of potential contagious activity in NYC despite a set protocol warrants this quarantine.

Given the mortality rate of Ebola, extreme safety is necessary. Given the fact that a DWB doctor would know more about transmission and still contracted the disease suggests that the tests that show that airborne transmission is possible should be taken more seriously.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Given the mortality rate of Ebola, extreme safety is necessary. Given the fact that a DWB doctor would know more about transmission and still contracted the disease suggests that the tests that show that airborne transmission is possible should be taken more seriously.

I don't believe that Ebola is airborne. I think the issues are more to do with people in Africa not being trained in proper disposal of hazardous materials. If it was possible to be transmitted through the air, we'd be seeing many, many more cases here in the US.

[JPhillips]

It's much more likely that the conditions in Liberia caused transmission rather than it becoming airborne. We have no evidence for airborne transmission and from what I've read no virus ever studied has evolved to change it's manner of transmission.

[Solecismic]

Testing indicated that monkeys could catch Ebola through airborne transmission, though it's not as easily transmitted as other viruses. No human transmission has been proven, yet.

Idea being that the type of mask used by DWB staff may not have been of the type necessarily to provide full protection. You read about stuff like this for a little bit (one piece I had known, which is that you should never flush a toilet with the cover up) and you could easily freak yourself out.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Testing indicated that monkeys could catch Ebola through airborne transmission, though it's not as easily transmitted as other viruses. No human transmission has been proven, yet.

Do these monkeys shit and piss on a toilet or are they simply going wherever in the cage they are in?

While the study provided evidence that transmission of Ebola between species is possible, researchers still cannot say for certain how that transmission actually occurred. There are three likely candidates for the route of transmission: airborne, droplet, or fomites.

Airborne and droplet transmission both technically travel through the air to infect others; the difference lies in the size of the infective particles. Smaller droplets persist in the air longer and are able to travel farther- these droplets are truly “airborne.” Larger droplets can neither travel as far nor persist for very long. Fomites are inanimate objects that can transmit disease if they are contaminated with infectious agents. In this study, a monkey’s cage could have been contaminated when workers were cleaning a nearby pig cage. If the monkey touched the contaminated cage surface and then its mouth or eyes, it could have been infected.

From Pigs to Monkeys, Ebola Goes Airborne | HealthMap

[miked]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Testing indicated that monkeys could catch Ebola through airborne transmission, though it's not as easily transmitted as other viruses. No human transmission has been proven, yet.

Idea being that the type of mask used by DWB staff may not have been of the type necessarily to provide full protection. You read about stuff like this for a little bit (one piece I had known, which is that you should never flush a toilet with the cover up) and you could easily freak yourself out.

I love the people with no medical or scientific training are suddenly experts in these things. You should run for congress and join the science and technology subcommittee, you'd fit right in.

[dubb93]

It is almost certainly droplet transmission when you actually learn what that is. It is not airborne. If it was, it would be much more prevelant than it is. I can see the doctors over there not having an N95 available considering many places over here do not have N95s available.

[RainMaker]

It's not airborne. The study people keep citing doesn't claim it's airborne. In fact, they did a follow-up study years later and said there is no sign it can be contracted through the air.

Evaluation of transmission risks associated with in vivo replication of several high containment pathogens in a biosafety level 4 laboratory : Scientific Reports : Nature Publishing Group

This remains the dumbest national media story in a long time. 2 people in this entire country have gotten sick from someone who had Ebola. They were nurses who worked directly with the patient. They both survived. No one else has contracted Ebola within these borders. It is just not that contagious.

This is a fabricated media story to get clicks/viewers. Stop buying into it.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by miked

I love the people with no medical or scientific training are suddenly experts in these things. You should run for congress and join the science and technology subcommittee, you'd fit right in.

You're so much nicer than I am.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Testing indicated that monkeys could catch Ebola through airborne transmission

"Airborne" in the sense that monkeys have a tendency to throw poo at each other.

[flere-imsaho]

More people have died this year from school shootings than Ebola. If you're in this thread talking about extreme measures to cut the risk of people dying from Ebola, you should also be talking (in the other thread) about extreme measures to restrict the availability of guns. Otherwise you're a hypocrite.

[Buccaneer]

What extreme measures are you willing to take with automobiles and particularly those driving under the influence?

[molson]

If it was airborne why didn't it spread to any of the 170 people on that flight with the symptomatic person from West Africa to Nigeria, or any of the people in the airport? Why didn't the Texas patient spread it to anyone in Dallas, including the multiple people he lived with? Why did he spread it to only 2 health care providers at the hospital? Why didn't that nurse in Spain spread it even though they used the ambulance she was transported in the rest of the day? The nurse going to Ohio and the volunteer in NYC seem to have been not symptomatic when they were out and about, but I also remember reports that the nurse had a slight fever, so why didn't it spread in that plane, and that airport and in Cleveland?

I think people are startled that healthcare providers "with all their precautions" have a demonstrated slight risk of getting Ebola. It scares people that doctors can get this. If doctors can get it, we're all in danger!! But the reality is, doctors, especially volunteer doctors, catch things from their patients all the time. And more importantly, and this is something I don't see mentioned enough - Ebola victims produce a LOT of bodily fluids. A single Ebola patient produces an average of eight 55-gallon barrels of medical waste each day. Imagine that. Imagine all the mattresses and clothes you have to dispose of on a daily basis. Imagine how that works in West Africa when you don't have a ton of medical supplies. Imagine the amount of bodily fluids a volunteer doctor will come into contact with if they treat 100 patients in West Africa. That's why it's possible for them to get it, and that's why I kind of lose it when people call those doctors "selfish" or when JIMGA wants them shot, or when this other resentment is expressed. If you're afraid of Ebola, these are the people trying to help the situation directly, what are you doing to help?

I think if you understand and comprehend that amount of liquid, you should be able to comprehend how quickly this can spread in a place like West Africa, how it's possible for health care providers to get it (but extremely difficult when precautions are taken, and impossible or almost impossible when the correct precautions are taken in an adequate U.S. hospital), and how a it's almost impossible to get it from an ebola patient in a developed country that maybe only has begun to show symptoms and isn't producing that kind of medical waste yet (which happens in later stages).

Ebola Patients Generate 440 Gallons of Medical Waste Daily : Discovery News

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

If it was airborne why didn't it spread to any of the 170 people on that flight with the symptomatic person from West Africa to Nigeria, or any of the people in the airport? Why didn't the Texas patient spread it to anyone in Dallas, including the multiple people he lived with? Why did he spread it to only 2 health care providers at the hospital? Why didn't that nurse in Spain spread it even though they used the ambulance she was transported in the rest of the day? The nurse going to Ohio and the volunteer in NYC seem to have been not symptomatic when they were out and about, but I also remember reports that the nurse had a slight fever, so why didn't it spread in that plane, and that airport and in Cleveland?

I think people are startled that healthcare providers "with all their precautions" have a demonstrated slight risk of getting Ebola. It scares people that doctors can get this. If doctors can get it, we're all in danger!! But the reality is, doctors, especially volunteer doctors, catch things from their patients all the time. And more importantly, and this is something I don't see mentioned enough - Ebola victims produce a LOT of bodily fluids. A single Ebola patient produces an average of eight 55-gallon barrels of medical waste each day. Imagine that. Imagine all the mattresses and clothes you have to dispose of on a daily basis. Imagine how that works in West Africa when you don't have a ton of medical supplies. Imagine the amount of bodily fluids a volunteer doctor will come into contact with if they treat 100 patients in West Africa. That's why it's possible for them to get it, and that's why I kind of lose it when people call those doctors "selfish" or when JIMGA wants them shot, or when this other resentment is expressed. If you're afraid of Ebola, these are the people trying to help the situation directly, what are you doing to help? I think if you understand and comprehend that amount of liquid, you should be able to comprehend how quickly this can spread in a place like West Africa, how it's possible for health care providers to get it (but extremely difficult when precautions are taken, and impossible or almost impossible when the correct precautions are taken in an adequate U.S. hospital), and how a it's almost impossible to get it from an ebola patient in a developed country that maybe only has begun to show symptoms.

Ebola Patients Generate 440 Gallons of Medical Waste Daily : Discovery News

But it's so much easier to be ignorant of the truth and just fear-monger.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

More people have died this year from school shootings than Ebola. If you're in this thread talking about extreme measures to cut the risk of people dying from Ebola, you should also be talking (in the other thread) about extreme measures to restrict the availability of guns. Otherwise you're a hypocrite.

Or better yet don't overreact with extreme measures to either.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

What extreme measures are you willing to take with automobiles and particularly those driving under the influence?

Originally Posted by panerd

Or better yet don't overreact with extreme measures to either.

This.

I've held the following long-standing (thus, not overreacting) views:

1. Ban all firearms except for single-shot shotguns. In addition, much tougher penalties for possession of illegal firearms.

2. Vehicular manslaughter penalties should be toughened.

3. First DUI = lose license for 90 days. Second DUI = lose license for 1 year. Third DUI = lose license forever. No appeals.

4. In addition, driving with a license that's been suspended or revoked due to DUI has additional, considerably more stringent, penalties.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

and how a it's almost impossible to get it from an ebola patient in a developed country that maybe only has begun to show symptoms

So "impossible" that two of those highly developed nation's highly trained healthcare workers contracted it.

And they're sooooo unselfish that those same highly developed nation's highly trained healthcare workers have then exposed the general public as they go merrily about their business.

And this "almost impossible" is supposed to make us all feel BETTER?

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

So "impossible" that two of those highly developed nation's highly trained healthcare workers contracted it.

And they're sooooo unselfish that those same highly developed nation's highly trained healthcare workers have then exposed the general public as they go merrily about their business.

And this "almost impossible" is supposed to make us all feel BETTER?

You just come across as paranoid.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

You just come across as paranoid.

That's a nice way of putting it.

[Solecismic]

This is a summary of what I read.

Document shows feds fear airborne Ebola

It's consistent with what people are saying here. This isn't an easy issue, and the mortality rate of Ebola warrants extra attention.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

That's a nice way of putting it.

Honestly, the odds of me being gunned down on the way to pick up my son from school are probably much, much, much, much higher than dying of Ebola. I'm much more worried about Enterovirus-D68, which has 11 kids in the hospital at Cincinnati's Children's Hospital.

[Solecismic]

You're probably right. But if Ebola does reach the US and isn't contained immediately, the odds would change quite radically. Risk assessment is sometimes hard to assess because there are a lot of ifs. Here, we have a tiny chance of something that would cause enormous loss of life.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

So "impossible" that two of those highly developed nation's highly trained healthcare workers contracted it.

And they're sooooo unselfish that those same highly developed nation's highly trained healthcare workers have then exposed the general public as they go merrily about their business.

And this "almost impossible" is supposed to make us all feel BETTER?

You didn't follow my post accurately. The ebola patients at hospitals are obviously symptomatic, so of course it's possible for health providers to get ebola from them. Like I said. Also, like I said, it's extremely difficult to transmit ebola if precautions are taken, and possible or impossible to transmit it when a western developed hospital is actually doing things correctly. The facts bear this out. This is why you shouldn't be afraid. Even when there was no preparation at all and terrible implementation of policies that were in place, the total toll at the Dallas hospital was....Two cases, and zero additional fatalities, and zero transmissions into the general public. That's when things go poorly. That's what you're scared of.

Then I said it was "almost impossible" to get it from an ebola patient in a developed country that maybe only has begun to show symptoms. I said "almost" to hedge my bets, but nobody has actually gotten ebola from a patient in these early stages yet. It's theoretically possible, but it's disease has PROVEN very difficult to transmit. The Texas patient didn't infect ANY non-treatment providers in the general public. The NYC patient hasn't either, that we know of yet. I'm betting that the the final number there will also be zero, but it's certainly possible that right before he went to hospital he puked or shit somewhere and someone touched it, so I know worst case, there could be 1 or 2 transmissions as the result of that. That's what you're scared of.

The great thing about this is in a few weeks we'll definitely know which one of us is right.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Y The ebola patients at hospitals are obviously symptomatic, so of course it's possible for health providers to get ebola from them. Like I said. Also, like I said, it's extremely difficult to transmit ebola if precautions are taken, and possible or impossible to transmit it when a western developed hospital is actually doing things correctly.

An ability that seems to be lacking. The ratio of additional infections to existing cases is rather pathetic frankly.

The great thing about this is in a few weeks we'll definitely know which one of us is right.

Maybe.

But I'm not even remotely willing to accept wholly unnecessary additional risks in the meantime.

That's really what this is about: not fear, but rather about reasonable measures to minimize risk.

The federal response to the situation, thus far, has been among the most comically lacking in U.S. history afaic. When governors on BOTH ends of the political spectrum are making exponentially more sense and acting far more responsibly than the feds, it makes a great argument for removing those feds entirely.

[molson]

What is the factual scenario that could confirm your fears here? The Dallas hospital fucked up and we got 2 cases and 0 fatalities. So how do we get to 1,000 fatalities (not your number, but you seem to be along that same wave of thinking)? Wouldn't that take hundreds or thousands of new Ebola patients to get into the U.S.? Or for one ebola patient to somehow infect thousands of people? When we haven't even had ONE non-health provider catch it yet? Do you really believe that's going to happen? Edit: On what planet is that a reasonable fear? You should be much more worried about what smoking is doing to you and the price you're very likely to pay for that choice.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

What is the factual scenario that could confirm your fears here? The Dallas hospital fucked up and we got 2 cases and 0 fatalities. So how do we get to 1,000 fatalities (not your number, but you seem to be along that same wave of thinking)? Wouldn't that take hundreds or thousands of new Ebola patients to get into the U.S.? Or for one ebola patient to somehow infect thousands of people? When we haven't even had ONE non-health provider catch it yet? Do you really believe that's going to happen? On what planet is that a reasonable fear?

ONE more case from irresponsibly allowing those exposed to wander around is one too many.

Worth mentioning at this juncture I think:

You seem to be mistaking my position on that with some overriding hiding in a basement fear of contracting it. My life has carried on, to this point, pretty f'n normally. I've discussed the subject here more than anywhere else (aside from Ebola jokes tied to me fighting through a bad cold last week).

I'm simply -- truly and legitimately, utterly & completely, without a single ounce of hyperbole -- flabbergasted at the existence of pretty much anyone who thinks failing to quarantine the exposed isn't the most negligent act possible in this situation.

That ... "astonishment" I guess is the word, is the reason for my involvement in the discussion here to the extent I've engaged.

It's on par with my complete lack of understanding of why anyone would voluntarily go camping. I simply cannot comprehend how such a decision could be made.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

What is the factual scenario that could confirm your fears here? The Dallas hospital fucked up and we got 2 cases and 0 fatalities. So how do we get to 1,000 fatalities (not your number, but you seem to be along that same wave of thinking)? Wouldn't that take hundreds or thousands of new Ebola patients to get into the U.S.? Or for one ebola patient to somehow infect thousands of people? When we haven't even had ONE non-health provider catch it yet? Do you really believe that's going to happen? On what planet is that a reasonable fear? You should be much more worried about what smoking is doing to you and the price you're very likely to pay for that choice.

This is someone who finds politicians more believable/credible than doctors on this issue. Not worth your time trying to talk sense into him.

[flounder]

It's because of your misunderstanding of exposure. Just because someone has worked with an Ebola patient, that doesn't mean they've been exposed. Exposure is a specific medical term which you're using incorrectly. Like I said above, if you want to treat everyone who has worked with an Ebola patient like they're contagious, then no one is going to treat anyone they suspect of having Ebola. Since Ebola has similar symptoms to a lot of other diseases, that's a lot of disease left untreated.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

ONE more case from irresponsibly allowing those exposed to wander around is one too many.

One "more"? The next infection occurring in those circumstances will be the first (if it even happens). And I don't believe that your fear/anger over this is based on altruism.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

This is someone who finds politicians more believable/credible than doctors on this issue. Not worth your time trying to talk sense into him.

Ahem. I did say generally more credible.

Essentially, I don't trust the medical community to respond to this in any way moreso than whatever makes their lives easiest and/or makes them look best. Too much God complex, too much refusal to accept the possibility of being wrong, too much ego, the single greatest concentration of utter hubris of any profession on the planet. A group that, on average, makes me look like the most humble person to ever walk the earth.

So,no, when it comes to making policy I don't trust them as far as I can throw them ... and the completely self-absorbed behavior we've seen on display over quarantines increases that distrust exponentially.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

One "more"? The next infection occurring in those circumstances will be the first (if it even happens). And I don't believe that your fear/anger over this is based on altruism.

Didn't say it was altruistic. Simply said I found the risk unacceptable.

Not the same thing, didn't mean to imply that it was altruism in the slightest.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It's on par with my complete lack of understanding of why anyone would voluntarily go camping. I simply cannot comprehend how such a decision could be made.

This I get....Smokey the Bear and all...

[JPhillips]

All those medical professionals with their egotistical "medical knowledge" really piss me off. I get all the medical knowledge I need from my collection of 15th century wood carvings.

[path12]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

All those medical professionals with their egotistical "medical knowledge" really piss me off. I get all the medical knowledge I need from my collection of 15th century wood carvings.

Phrenology FTW!

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

This.

I've held the following long-standing (thus, not overreacting) views:

1. Ban all firearms except for single-shot shotguns. In addition, much tougher penalties for possession of illegal firearms.

2. Vehicular manslaughter penalties should be toughened.

3. First DUI = lose license for 90 days. Second DUI = lose license for 1 year. Third DUI = lose license forever. No appeals.

4. In addition, driving with a license that's been suspended or revoked due to DUI has additional, considerably more stringent, penalties.

Just because you have long standing beliefs, doesn't mean they aren't overreacting.

1) Why the hell let people have shotguns? Home safety? You miss once, you are screwed? Will the criminals follow this gun control you speak of or will all the good guys give up their guns? What's so special about them? You are eliminating the hunting industry in a single swoop. Before anyone comes back at me, I'm not a gun owner. I'm for more gun control. I want to do something realistic though. There has been a lot of this in the thread. The believe that just wishing something to be true means it could happen. The country will NEVER be on board with this in our lifetime.

2) OK, I'm good with that.

3 and 4) Fine, I'm on board. I don't want to stop at alcohol though. Same penalties for texting.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

All those medical professionals with their egotistical "medical knowledge" really piss me off. I get all the medical knowledge I need from my collection of 15th century wood carvings.

Worked for this guy.

Originally Posted by Theodoric of York

Well, I'll do everything humanly possible. Unfortunately, we barbers aren't gods. You know, medicine is not an exact science, but we are learning all the time. Why, just fifty years ago, they thought a disease like your daughter's was caused by demonic possession or witchcraft. But nowadays we know that Isabelle is suffering from an imbalance of bodily humors, perhaps caused by a toad or a small dwarf living in her stomach.

[path12]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Just because you have long standing beliefs, doesn't mean they aren't overreacting.

1) Why the hell let people have shotguns? Home safety? You miss once, you are screwed? Will the criminals follow this gun control you speak of or will all the good guys give up their guns? What's so special about them? You are eliminating the hunting industry in a single swoop. Before anyone comes back at me, I'm not a gun owner. I'm for more gun control. I want to do something realistic though. There has been a lot of this in the thread. The believe that just wishing something to be true means it could happen. The country will NEVER be on board with this in our lifetime.

2) OK, I'm good with that.

3 and 4) Fine, I'm on board. I don't want to stop at alcohol though. Same penalties for texting.

Well thank God you've let flere have at least three of his opinions.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I get all the medical knowledge I need from my collection of 15th century wood carvings.

Studying wood carvings sounds oddly relaxing. I think I missed my calling in life.