(Political) To the Left wing of the Democratic party

[SirFozzie]

Do you realize how much like 13 year olds you sound right now. How "everything is ruined forever" because you didn't get the progressives dream in a national health care system.

Look, I'm thinking it was a good idea too.. but here's the thing. There's sixty of you. That is a high water mark that the democrats DREAMED about, a decade ago, or even 6 years ago. So you didn't get everything you wanted. Get what you can, and call it good.

If you can't get it now, you ain't gonna get it. And what you're doing right now is wasting an advantage you may never have again. Not just in numbers, but in grasping the center. The rival political party is split between the orthodox and the fringe.

But you're doing the same thing. A lot of the Democratic party are in the progressive side.. understandable. However, by demanding orthodoxy over practical concerns, by demanding the "Big Leap" instead of small, practical steps you are handing the momentum right back to the Republican party.

You got where you were (60 senators, and a sizable lead in the house), by the strategy of moving to the center, playing to all 50 states.Now that you've been granted this amazing difference in party size and potential power, you're playing back to your bases and forgot what got you to the dance, so to speak. The right lost the center a while ago to you.

Now you're trying to give it back.

(sorry for the ranty ravey, I think I've been exposed to one too many "Everything is ruined forever" rants from people who expected this great fundamental shift in America)

[JPhillips]

Two things. One, nobody should have expected Obama to be anything more than a center-left pragmatist. He isn't a radical and is always going to look for a consensus position. That's the guy I thought I was voting for, so I'm cool with that.

However, that doesn't excuse the incompetence around HCR. There's no reason why Reid and Obama should have defaulted to a position where every single moderate can be in charge of writing the bill. I know they need sixty votes to beat the GOP filibuster, but why did they take reconciliation off the table before they started negotiating? Why are there no consequences for committee chairs to vote against closure? Why hasn't a single Dem been screaming on TV every day about the principle of an "up or down vote"? Where's the ghost of Lyndon Johnson when you need him?

I'm not in favor of scrapping the bill, but I'm not far from that position. As it moves more and more to be little other than forcing thirty million people to buy insurance, what's the point?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Two things. One, nobody should have expected Obama to be anything more than a center-left pragmatist. He isn't a radical and is always going to look for a consensus position. That's the guy I thought I was voting for, so I'm cool with that.

However, that doesn't excuse the incompetence around HCR. There's no reason why Reid and Obama should have defaulted to a position where every single moderate can be in charge of writing the bill. I know they need sixty votes to beat the GOP filibuster, but why did they take reconciliation off the table before they started negotiating? Why are there no consequences for committee chairs to vote against closure? Why hasn't a single Dem been screaming on TV every day about the principle of an "up or down vote"? Where's the ghost of Lyndon Johnson when you need him?

I'm not in favor of scrapping the bill, but I'm not far from that position. As it moves more and more to be little other than forcing thirty million people to buy insurance, what's the point?

i'm at the point where scrapping the bill (unless you remove the mandate to purchase insurance) is what i want to see.

in its current state it's essentially a fucking handout to he health insurance companies. and frankly the "tougher rules" on denying coverage for preexisting conditions just give the insurance companies a built-in excuse to say "ohhh our costs are going up...time to jack your premiums even more!"

reforming the industry through the private sector is a fucking joke. the system here in Massachusetts isn't really all that great, but at least there's a semblance of cost-control in it - now you want to remove even that?

the health insurance companies bought and paid for a gazillion lobbyists, and they've won.

so why not pass this bill to at least (as I heard some senators say) "lay the foundation?"

because that simply gives opponents ammunition to say "oh we tried healthcare reform...it didn't work." or "oh we still need to give the last reforms time to really work."

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Two things. One, nobody should have expected Obama to be anything more than a center-left pragmatist. He isn't a radical and is always going to look for a consensus position. That's the guy I thought I was voting for, so I'm cool with that.

However, that doesn't excuse the incompetence around HCR. There's no reason why Reid and Obama should have defaulted to a position where every single moderate can be in charge of writing the bill. I know they need sixty votes to beat the GOP filibuster, but why did they take reconciliation off the table before they started negotiating? Why are there no consequences for committee chairs to vote against closure? Why hasn't a single Dem been screaming on TV every day about the principle of an "up or down vote"? Where's the ghost of Lyndon Johnson when you need him?

I'm not in favor of scrapping the bill, but I'm not far from that position. As it moves more and more to be little other than forcing thirty million people to buy insurance, what's the point?

+1, pretty much

Nate Silver over at 538 has been talking about this all week- mostly the same idea as Foz: there's a lot of good in this bill, quit griping because the most liberal stuff wasn't going to get done. I love Nate, but I think he also missed the big picture here.

-At this point, the bill is basically that you force everyone to buy insurance, you get rid of the pre-existing condition clause, and give a bunch of subsidies to lower income families people to get insurance and *that's it*. Not to go all fiscally conservative, but if we're spending close to $1T- I want more than that for my money.

-But what did we give up to get that? We're forcing people who can't really afford it to buy into the system and having everyone else pay for it. I'm ok with that idea in theory- we're in a social contract and I think we need to look out for the less fortunate, both as its the right thing to do and as it's in the national interest- that's why I'm one of those dirty liberals. But if we're giving the insurance industry more than 30M new customers and a giant share of $100B per year in cold, hard cash- I want something back, more than just bargaining away pre-existing conditions. You could have just made a law outlawing it in Februrary to near unanimous bi-partisan support before this even got started and then start from a new negotiating point, if you had really wanted to.

-Where are the cost savings? I know it's crazy, but even those of us on the left care about these sorts of things. How does this bill do anything but push this issue down the road? The insurance exchange is going to be just like employer based health care: strangely, everyone is going to have almost identical prices for the same coverage despite a 15% profit margin per year and grossly inflated operating costs (like most companies in this country). We're going to see some smaller companies get bought up as they might actually have tried to be price competitive to grow their share and it's going to look like every other industry here- 3~5 big players and oligopoly-controlled prices.

-And we've handed pharmaceuticals a crapload more of cash. And for what? To still get gouged as we can't negotiate as a group and can't get their "international" drug rates? Any increased regulation so we stop fast-tracking stuff that will kill people? Any requirements to provide drugs to the poor or require research on something actually beneficial to society other than helping make sure aging baby boomers can sit around in bathtubs outside as some weird euphemism for sex?

So, at the end of the day, the political capital was pretty much pissed away and there's not much to show for it in this bill. Not only did the Dems fail to actually pass something substantial by trying to head towards the middle, they also now are perceived as having done nothing as, well, they did nothing. Rather than getting a big electoral victory, they've endangered their majority for next year. And for what? To water a bill down to make it more palatable to the middle who hates it all that much more.

Where's the major victory on any fronts?

SI

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

This is a fun little game. When a fiscal conservative points out the numerous flaws in this bill and where the money is going, it's called 'hoping the bill will fail'. When a liberal points out the same issues at a later date, it's called constructive criticism from supporters.

I like this game.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

+1, pretty much

Nate Silver over at 538 has been talking about this all week- mostly the same idea as Foz: there's a lot of good in this bill, quit griping because the most liberal stuff wasn't going to get done. I love Nate, but I think he also missed the big picture here.

-At this point, the bill is basically that you force everyone to buy insurance, you get rid of the pre-existing condition clause, and give a bunch of subsidies to lower income families people to get insurance and *that's it*. Not to go all fiscally conservative, but if we're spending close to $1T- I want more than that for my money.

-But what did we give up to get that? We're forcing people who can't really afford it to buy into the system and having everyone else pay for it. I'm ok with that idea in theory- we're in a social contract and I think we need to look out for the less fortunate, both as its the right thing to do and as it's in the national interest- that's why I'm one of those dirty liberals. But if we're giving the insurance industry more than 30M new customers and a giant share of $100B per year in cold, hard cash- I want something back, more than just bargaining away pre-existing conditions. You could have just made a law outlawing it in Februrary to near unanimous bi-partisan support before this even got started and then start from a new negotiating point, if you had really wanted to.

-Where are the cost savings? I know it's crazy, but even those of us on the left care about these sorts of things. How does this bill do anything but push this issue down the road? The insurance exchange is going to be just like employer based health care: strangely, everyone is going to have almost identical prices for the same coverage despite a 15% profit margin per year and grossly inflated operating costs (like most companies in this country). We're going to see some smaller companies get bought up as they might actually have tried to be price competitive to grow their share and it's going to look like every other industry here- 3~5 big players and oligopoly-controlled prices.

-And we've handed pharmaceuticals a crapload more of cash. And for what? To still get gouged as we can't negotiate as a group and can't get their "international" drug rates? Any increased regulation so we stop fast-tracking stuff that will kill people? Any requirements to provide drugs to the poor or require research on something actually beneficial to society other than helping make sure aging baby boomers can sit around in bathtubs outside as some weird euphemism for sex?

So, at the end of the day, the political capital was pretty much pissed away and there's not much to show for it in this bill. Not only did the Dems fail to actually pass something substantial by trying to head towards the middle, they also now are perceived as having done nothing as, well, they did nothing. Rather than getting a big electoral victory, they've endangered their majority for next year. And for what? To water a bill down to make it more palatable to the middle who hates it all that much more.

Where's the major victory on any fronts?

SI

well said sir. particuarly on the costs - i hadn't mentioned that. it's essentially just shifting the costs down the line onto us in a few more years and leaving it for another Congress to deal with. Something that our legislators are really great at.

but we don't get anything as far as actual reforms to keep costs down - like I said it's a handout to the insurance industry (which really does not need it AT ALL).

it's also going to demoralize a ton of those first-time or younger voters that they had turn out for them in such large numbers in the last election. shit, it's demoralizing to me, and i'm neither. so you run the risk of lowering your turnout in the midterm elections and losing a bunch of seats by people who are so pissed off that they just decide to stay home and not vote.

lose lose lose. lost all-around. it's a magnificent clusterfuck.

i may disagree with the Republicans ideas (particularly socially, since as has been noted i am at least fiscally responsible), but i can damn sure be a pragmatist and admire the fact that when they have legislation they want to get passed as a majority they twist arms and get their house in order and got something passed that at least somewhat resembles what they want.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

This is a fun little game. When a conservative points out the numerous flaws in this bill and where the money is going, it's called 'hoping the bill will fail'. When a liberal points out the same issues at a later date, it's called constructive criticism from supporters.

I like this game.

can you provide links to posts where you have pointed out flaws in where the money in this bill is going and then where people chided you for "hoping the bill will fail?"

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

can you provide links to posts where you have pointed out flaws in where the money in this bill is going and then where people chided you for "hoping the bill will fail?"

I'm not speaking solely of my opinion. While I certainly understand that you put a high value in what I say, there are others that have pointed out the fiscal irresponsibility of this bill and the president has certainly pointed the finger to the opposition on numerous occasions both publicly and privately that he thought they wanted the bill to fail.

As Fozzie correctly states, the ball still lies in the Democrat court with everyone staring at the ball and no one wanting to pick it up and do the best thing for their constituents rather than what is best for their political future. If they continue doing this, they may end up irritating their constituents AND jeopardizing their political future.

[ISiddiqui]

Hear Hear on the OP (and Nate Silver). There is a lot of good in the bill, but if you are going to scrap it because you can't get everything you want, then forget about ever having a national health care system. Pass a bill that extends coverage to everyone (through mandates and support for low income people) and eliminate pre-existing conditions and insurance to drop you for no reason (well, the reason is you get too expensive) and go with that. Maybe later you can get other things you want after seeing how this works. It may be done in stages, but AT LEAST get the first stage off the ground.

After all, it took 11 Apollo's to get to the moon (yes, I know, not the best analogy..)

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Anyone who took the pushback against the Republicans and election of Obama to mean America's liberal again probably deserves their frustrations.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'm not speaking solely of my opinion. While I certainly understand that you put a high value in what I say, there are others that have pointed out the fiscal irresponsibility of this bill and the president has certainly pointed the finger to the opposition on numerous occasions both publicly and privately that he thought they wanted the bill to fail.

As Fozzie correctly states, the ball still lies in the Democrat court with everyone staring at the ball and no one wanting to pick it up and do the best thing for their constituents rather than what is best for their political future. If they continue doing this, they may end up irritating their constituents AND jeopardizing their political future.

But the difference is the CBO and many experts think a public option will reduce the deficit and overall spending on healthcare. Just shoveling money from the treasury to the insurance companies without means in place to reduce costs is a far worse option.

[lynchjm24]

The fiscal part of the bill is a joke. All it does is create huge deficits in the future.

Much of the way they go ten years without creating a bigger deficit is just a ridiculous shell game.

The bill includes a public long term care plan. This plan would cost something like $175 a month to join and there would be no government subsidy. When you needed long term care it would pay $75 a day towards it. Here is the shell game: You have to pay premiums for 5 years before you can collect the benefits. So they will collect premiums for 5 years before they pay a claim, of course you can make the 10 year financial picture make sense.

This ignores a couple of problems:
A. $75 a day is a worthless benefit today, nevermind 15-20 years from now. That won't pay to get your ass wiped once.
B. They will take an absolute bath in the long term based on underestimating how long the average person will live and how upside down our demographics are. As soon as the writing is on the wall and the plan is a disaster who is going to join, because there is provisions that allow the premiums to be raised, but the benefit seems to be set at $75 a day.

Yes, it sounds great in sound bites to talk about taking care of the elderly and the disabled and how it will change lives. It is a noble cause. It's an impossible bill that is going to come due in the future and can't be paid.

[panerd]

There is one political party. They go by different names but they do the exact same things in power, spend your money. They both love the state, they both believe that government benefits they will provide outweigh their costs even though this is proven over and over to not be true. There used to be a saying that one party believes in welfare and the other in warfare but now both parties believe in both. One party will deflect blame by talking about George W Bush and blatantly doing exactly what Bush did. The other party will talk about fiscal responsibility while spending out their ass when they are in power. Continue your partisan bickering if you like but if you can't see this then you truly are disillusioned. The Republicans will bring change in 2010, the Democrats will bring change in 2012, the Republicans will bring change in 2014, etc...

2024: US President "We must win this war in India. People may have doubts about our wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Yemen, Turkey... But the security of the United States has never been more at risk. We must also fix health care it is broken and we can’t keep spending tax money to get us out of this mess."

2024 FOFC poster: "He's right. I know I doubted the previous president in 2020 with their war in Algeria, but he must be right since he is on our side! Now let’s go argue some unimportant side issue!"

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But the difference is the CBO and many experts think a public option will reduce the deficit and overall spending on healthcare. Just shoveling money from the treasury to the insurance companies without means in place to reduce costs is a far worse option.

I don't disagree with your second point. But as Fozzie stated so well, the weak stances from the Democrat party are causing disappointment on both sides of the issue from a constiuent standpoint. If you're a Democrat supporter, you're disappointed that the large majority that your party has received hasn't reinforced to them that they should put a policy in place that does what's needed rather than a watered-down bill that does nothing. If you're a GOP supporter, you're wishing the Democrats would have enough balls to push their agenda full-bore and define their policy stances come hell or high water. Instead, you're left with a majority that isn't really sure what they're doing and don't even act like a majority should.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Two things. One, nobody should have expected Obama to be anything more than a center-left pragmatist. He isn't a radical and is always going to look for a consensus position. That's the guy I thought I was voting for, so I'm cool with that.

+1

I expected Obama to be a center-left pragmatist, and a realist, and he hasn't disappointed me on that front so far.

However, that doesn't excuse the incompetence around HCR.

+2

I know life in the Senate is difficult, but to come out of an electoral cycle with good majorities in both the House and the Senate, and ownership of the White House, and then give up as much ground as they have, is somewhat ridiculous.

Everything isn't "ruined forever", but Reid and Pelosi (Reid especially) have squandered the kind of golden chance that doesn't come around very often. I mean, they couldn't even use Ted Kennedy's death to shame some people into voting for the bill.

I'm not in favor of scrapping the bill, but I'm not far from that position. As it moves more and more to be little other than forcing thirty million people to buy insurance, what's the point?

I always wanted Universal Healthcare, but never figured I'd get it, even with the Democrats in this kind of strong political position (or at least the strong political position they had about a year ago). I did not, however, figure that I'd get as little as this bill is going to give us, especially considering all the crap that's also going to go into this bill that I'd rather not have.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by panerd

They go by different names but they do the exact same things in power, spend your money. They both love the state, they both believe that government benefits they will provide outweigh their costs even though this is proven over and over to not be true.

The less Congress 'accomplishes' the better off we all are.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by panerd

2024: US President "We must win this war in India."

Ah, the Curry Powder Invasion of 2024.

[lynchjm24]

On pre-existing conditions. You can't require companies to drop pre-existing condition requirements and not require everyone to buy insurance. There would be no individual market within 3 years if you didn't. The rates would get so highly so quickly that anyone who wasn't chronically ill could even consider insurance.

If you could purchase collision insurance AFTER you totaled your car how would anyone afford car insurance?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

The less Congress 'accomplishes' the better off we all are.

Exactly. The best situations are years where the Democrats control one part of Congress and the Republicans the other, both with weak majorities. Or when the president is a different party than Congress. A lot of bickering and theatrics and fortunately not a whole lot gets done.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

This is a fun little game. When a fiscal conservative points out the numerous flaws in this bill and where the money is going, it's called 'hoping the bill will fail'. When a liberal points out the same issues at a later date, it's called constructive criticism from supporters.

Conservatives never wanted this bill to pass so yes, they've been hoping the bill would fail.

Liberals wanted some sort of reform bill to pass, but now that it's a clusterfuck, they're pointing out the many elements (including fiscal ones) that make it a clusterfuck.

It's a difference of starting context.

Really, this isn't a difficult concept, MBBF.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

On pre-existing conditions. You can't require companies to drop pre-existing condition requirements and not require everyone to buy insurance. There would be no individual market within 3 years if you didn't. The rates would get so highly so quickly that anyone who wasn't chronically ill could even consider insurance.

I agree, and this is a big part of the problem with the half-measures made in the name of Health Care Reform, like this bill - the whole thing isn't thought through.

Of course, my answer would be to just go to a UHC system, in which case this particular issue of "having to insure" pre-existing conditions goes away.

Further, in light of the money we're going to spend on the dubious benefits of this particular bill, one really has to wonder if, in the end, it would have been cheaper to go to UHC and just cover everything in one fell swoop. Economies of scale and all that....

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Conservatives never wanted this bill in its current form to pass so yes, they've been hoping the bill would fail.

Fixed.

Republicans don't inherently have a problem with health care reform. They just differ on how they'd do it. A small clarification, but a very important one. While the tactic is used to villianize the minority party, there's nothing wrong with wanting a bill to fail if you don't believe that it's the best way to structure a policy. It just depends on where you stand as you correctly state.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by panerd

There is one political party. They go by different names but they do the exact same things in power, spend your money. They both love the state, they both believe that government benefits they will provide outweigh their costs even though this is proven over and over to not be true. There used to be a saying that one party believes in welfare and the other in warfare but now both parties believe in both. One party will deflect blame by talking about George W Bush and blatantly doing exactly what Bush did. The other party will talk about fiscal responsibility while spending out their ass when they are in power. Continue your partisan bickering if you like but if you can't see this then you truly are disillusioned. The Republicans will bring change in 2010, the Democrats will bring change in 2012, the Republicans will bring change in 2014, etc...

2024: US President "We must win this war in India. People may have doubts about our wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Yemen, Turkey... But the security of the United States has never been more at risk. We must also fix health care it is broken and we can’t keep spending tax money to get us out of this mess."

2024 FOFC poster: "He's right. I know I doubted the previous president in 2020 with their war in Algeria, but he must be right since he is on our side! Now let’s go argue some unimportant side issue!"

what's your point though? we should all wake up and vote libertarian? the problem with the libertarian party (well okay there are several) from my viewpoint:

1 - in national elections they put up candidates who are not comitted libertarians, but rather as LINO's

2 - i just think you have a fundamental problem trying to get the vast majority of Americans to buy into a political philosophy that embraces
a) minimally regulated markets (especially today - we've seen how well that worked out)
b) minimal border controls (yay terrorism...scary...oooh!!! muslims!!! 9/11!!! 9/11!!!!)
c) non-interventionism (see (b) )

3) the vast majority of Americans, while frustrated with inaction on the "pet issues" of the day clearly like their tax-supported government programs (from public education to medicare)

4) there isn't a working country in the world that is "Libertarian" that Libertarians can point to as a model and say "See...we can throw out everything we've got and it'll still be okay. We won't go to hell in a handbasket and totally fuck everything up." That's a massive risk to ask people to take, particularly when there are incremental steps that could be taken instead (100% public financing with caps for all elections, term limits, etc).

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Fixed.

Republicans don't inherently have a problem with health care reform. They just differ on how they'd do it. A small clarification, but a very important one. While the tactic is used to villianize the minority party, there's nothing wrong with wanting a bill to fail if you don't believe that it's the best way to structure a policy. It just depends on where you stand as you correctly state.

That would be a more effective argument if the GOP and/or fiscal conservatives actually put together an alternate plan that was anything but a cipher, but as we've pointed out to you again and again, they did no such thing, despite how many of Huckabee's or Jindal's "10 point plans" you care to post.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

On pre-existing conditions. You can't require companies to drop pre-existing condition requirements and not require everyone to buy insurance. There would be no individual market within 3 years if you didn't. The rates would get so highly so quickly that anyone who wasn't chronically ill could even consider insurance.

If you could purchase collision insurance AFTER you totaled your car how would anyone afford car insurance?

the fact that you're posting that from Hartford doesn't escape me.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

That would be a more effective argument if the GOP and/or fiscal conservatives actually put together an alternate plan that was anything but a cipher, but as we've pointed out to you again and again, they did no such thing, despite how many of Huckabee's or Jindal's "10 point plans" you care to post.

I totally agree. They're playing the same game at some level by not offering up a real alternative outside of the talking points which is frustrating to people like me who support their ideas on health care. With that said, the onus here is on the majority party to make something positive happen. The current bill they'd like to pass just so they can say they reformed health care could hurt them much worse than taking a stand with a true reform bill that actually puts forth what the Dems believe is the best way to change the system, even if it means not passing a bill.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I totally agree. They're playing the same game at some level by not offering up a real alternative outside of the talking points which is frustrating to people like me who support their ideas on health care. With that said, the onus here is on the majority party to make something positive happen. The current bill they'd like to pass just so they can say they reformed health care could hurt them much worse than taking a stand with a true reform bill that actually puts forth what the Dems believe is the best way to change the system, even if it means not passing a bill.

Stop the world - I want to get off. I AGREE WITH YOU MBBF!

[Warhammer]

I think there are a few points to be made:

1) I think the Dems erred in believing that they had a mandate from the last election. Rather than a mandate, I believe it was a voter revolt from the Republican party.

Using myself as an example, I voted for Bush, not because I liked him, but because he was better than Gore and Kerry. Bush used the term conservative, but he was not. The only conservative things that Bush did was in the social arena, but even that was limited, and I really do not worry about those items.

The result was an alienated party after 8 years and it cost them in the elections.

2) Due to this misjudgement, the Dems felt they needed to push through their agenda. They did this without shoring up any support from those who put them in office. Rather than starting small, building consensus, and then going for the big enchilada, they followed the South Park model of 1) Get Elected 2)????? 3) PROFIT!

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

the fact that you're posting that from Hartford doesn't escape me.

Oh I work in the industry, I don't hide that. It doesn't change the fact that you can't force carriers to cover people but not require everyone to participate if you want any chance for success. You don't need to be a genius to see how quickly a few sick people can drive the healthy people out of a risk pool. It happens in employer groups and it creates issues, in the individual market it's unsustainable.

There certainly needs to be coverage for everyone and to do that the government is going to have to get somewhat involved. This bill is a total shitshow though and makes things much much worse not better.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

the fact that you're posting that from Hartford doesn't escape me.

So what did it mean when I was posting from the Medicare IT offices in Baltimore in 2005?

[Kodos]

I don't understand why the democrats aren't stripping Lieberman of everything including his parking spot at this point.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

So what did it mean when I was posting from the Medicare IT offices in Baltimore in 2005?

It means you were wasting taxpayer's dollars.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Does lynchjim's IP ping back to Joe Lieberman's office in Hartford?

Also, the GOP had total control of Congress and the Presidency from pretty much 2000 to 2006. From 9/11 to about 2003, they could've passed anything because Democratic politicians were too scared of being called traitors. Yet, they did zip on health care aside from the massive give away to pharmaceutical companies called Medicare Part D.

The GOP acted much less like a party in control then the Dems are currently.

Regarding Libertarians, the response regarding market regulation is that with the regulations that were being enforced, you wound up with a bigger screw up than you did otherwise. You have to be willing to let those who screw up fail. It sucks short term, but in the long term you are in a much healthier situation. As it stands now, you are going to have the banks continue to run risks. The problem is, they feel if they are big enough the government will bail them out.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I don't understand why the democrats aren't stripping Lieberman of everything including his parking spot at this point.

Would it be a better bill if he wasn't opposed to it?

[Kodos]

They wouldn't have had to neuter it so much, so yes.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

It means you were wasting taxpayer's dollars.

Atta boy! Actually, it was allowed during breaks. I just wanted to find out if creating a system to handle government payouts made me a big-government liberal since living in Hartford makes Jim a GOP shill.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Kodos

They wouldn't have had to neuter it so much, so yes.

He's not forcing them to neuter it in any way. If the bill is good enough and you believe it is what's best for the people, you should stick to your guns. He's a senator who has the right to voice his approval or opposition just as much as any other. He's just villianized because he's the one the Dems can often sway. When he doesn't, he's an easy political football to toss around as an excuse.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Atta boy! Actually, it was allowed during breaks. I just wanted to find out if creating a system to handle government payouts made me a big-government liberal since living in Hartford makes Jim a GOP shill.

I am certainly no GOP shill and support health care reform in baby steps to see what works and what doesn't work. I am against bills that just increase future deficits and think that as important as health care is, the economy needs to be a higher priority since without the economy working there is no way to make anything else work. If you 'fix' health insurance but break the economy further, then shortly health insurance will be broken again.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Lynchjim's an insurance shill, not a GOP shill.

Thanks for the clarification.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I totally agree. They're playing the same game at some level by not offering up a real alternative outside of the talking points which is frustrating to people like me who support their ideas on health care.

Agreed. And nice post, by the way.

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

With that said, the onus here is on the majority party to make something positive happen. The current bill they'd like to pass just so they can say they reformed health care could hurt them much worse than taking a stand with a true reform bill that actually puts forth what the Dems believe is the best way to change the system, even if it means not passing a bill.

Yep. As I argued from the beginning (in the other threads), better to state clearly what you believe in and (ironically) put it to an "up-or-down" vote, going down in flames if necessary, than compromising the bill to the point that it's little more than a complicated way to shovel public money at insurance companies to cover people who could be covered for less via another method.

Heck, I wonder, at this point, if simply having people who earn below some threshold submit their insurance premium bills to the government for reimbursement might be cheaper.

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

It doesn't change the fact that you can't force carriers to cover people but not require everyone to participate if you want any chance for success. You don't need to be a genius to see how quickly a few sick people can drive the healthy people out of a risk pool. It happens in employer groups and it creates issues, in the individual market it's unsustainable.

And this is why we need UHC. Public health is a public good. Forcing private entities (even non-profit ones, such as BCBS) to compromise their financial operating models in pursuit of a public good almost never works, and certainly doesn't work on a long-term basis.

Heck, even companies who supplied military equipment for WWII didn't do so at a loss or with unacceptable financial risk, and that was a finite endeavor.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Lynchjim's an insurance shill, not a GOP shill.

Does this make you a Jesse Ewiak shill?

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Lynchjim's an insurance shill, not a GOP shill.

Ok, you a shill for the socialists? Anyone can call someone names and not deal with the issues. I'm sorry that I have been immersed in the subject for a decade and understand it much better then you do.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

And this is why we need UHC. Public health is a public good. Forcing private entities (even non-profit ones, such as BCBS) to compromise their financial operating models in pursuit of a public good almost never works, and certainly doesn't work on a long-term basis.

Might need it, but there is no way to pay for it and would need an immense shift in the behavior of our culture. You'll see over the next decade how quickly many of the European models that are held up as a standard begin to fall apart. Some are already starting to show the strain.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

He's not forcing them to neuter it in any way. If the bill is good enough and you believe it is what's best for the people, you should stick to your guns. He's a senator who has the right to voice his approval or opposition just as much as any other. He's just villianized because he's the one the Dems can often sway. When he doesn't, he's an easy political football to toss around as an excuse.

He's not a democrat in any sense at this point, so why treat him like he is? Take away everything you can, and kick him out of the democrat caucus. He is forcing them to neuter it so that they can actually get to the magical 60 number, since no clearly republican's dare break the ranks of the Waterloo plan.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

This is a fun little game. When a fiscal conservative points out the numerous flaws in this bill and where the money is going, it's called 'hoping the bill will fail'. When a liberal points out the same issues at a later date, it's called constructive criticism from supporters.

I like this game.

Yeah, the difference is- the more we like the bill, the more you hate it. If there were a strong public option to reign in costs, some import cost control measures to reign in pharma, and a chunk of money taken out of all parties in fees and taxes to keep them from charging more- I'd be happy with it and you'd be talking about it as if it were the end of days.

So, yeah, you are just hoping the bill will fail whereas this is constructive criticism.

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

Oh I work in the industry, I don't hide that. It doesn't change the fact that you can't force carriers to cover people but not require everyone to participate if you want any chance for success. You don't need to be a genius to see how quickly a few sick people can drive the healthy people out of a risk pool. It happens in employer groups and it creates issues, in the individual market it's unsustainable.

There certainly needs to be coverage for everyone and to do that the government is going to have to get somewhat involved. This bill is a total shitshow though and makes things much much worse not better.

sorry, i wasn't trying to attack you on that or anything, or even point it out, i just kinda thought it was worth a little chuckle.

i agree that you can't force carriers to cover people but not require everyone to participate. we are on agreement there.

but i think in order to ensure that insurance companies don't take the "oh we have to cover all these sicker people now so everyone's rates are going to go up even more" tack you have to have some method for keeping prices competitive - hence a public option. even if limited in size+scope at first.

i found your last couple sentences to be interesting and somewhat...refreshing i guess you'd say? that you think the bill is a total shitshow and you agree there needs to be government involvement.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

So what did it mean when I was posting from the Medicare IT offices in Baltimore in 2005?

i just thought it was worthy of a chuckle that's all. i wasn't trying to attack him or point it out with huge flashing neon lights or anything.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Atta boy! Actually, it was allowed during breaks. I just wanted to find out if creating a system to handle government payouts made me a big-government liberal since living in Hartford makes Jim a GOP shill.

wasn't really calling him a shill (as i said). just thought it was kinda...worth a chuckle.

does anyone else still chuckle, or just me?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Agreed. And nice post, by the way.

Yep. As I argued from the beginning (in the other threads), better to state clearly what you believe in and (ironically) put it to an "up-or-down" vote, going down in flames if necessary, than compromising the bill to the point that it's little more than a complicated way to shovel public money at insurance companies to cover people who could be covered for less via another method.

BTW, the lack of a firm GOP bill option is because it could easily strengthen the Democrats. A bill option by the GOP would allow the Democrats to say "See, I told you they were full of crap. This bill is a mess." At this point, the Democrats don't have an opposition bill to argue against, leaving the full target and scrutiny on the Dems bill. .

That's part of being the majority party. You have to take that spotlight and bask in it like you want it. Right now, it just feels like the Democrats are withering under the intense heat of that spotlight. I think that this would be going well for the Obama administration if they had good majority leaders in Congress. Reid and Pelosi are doing Obama and his supporters an extreme disservice.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

Might need it, but there is no way to pay for it and would need an immense shift in the behavior of our culture.

Disagreed on the former (I've seen models that indicate not only can we pay for it, but in the long-term it would be cheaper than our current model), agreed on the latter (I believe that U.S. culture is much less inclined to pay for "public good" programs than most other first world countries).

You'll see over the next decade how quickly many of the European models that are held up as a standard begin to fall apart. Some are already starting to show the strain.

Strain due typically to egregious financial mismanagement and/or bungled attempts at partial privatization by (typically) conservative governments. The model itself isn't bad, it's the management of the model in certain specific instances that leaves much to be desired.

Now, if you want to argue that the U.S. government couldn't possibly manage a big UHC system, then you may have a point. But I ask you:

What better? U.S. government trying to administer a simple "You get sick, we pay for it" system, or trying to work with the extraordinarily complex system we get as a result of this bill?