WW XCIII - Mine Wars - Battle of Blair Mountain - SYMPATHIZERS WIN!!!

[Danny]

Alright I'm leaving now, I will check in about 45 minutes from campus and assess a possible vote change before actually going to class.

[Poli]

VOTE THE JACKAL

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Poli

VOTE THE JACKAL

And.. why?

[dubb93]

Finally caught up.

[The Jackal]

Well, I can't give Render anymore time to show up, I need to put my vote out as much for self defense now, but I was already leaning to him.

VOTE RENDER

[The Jackal]

thanks for that hit and run vote poli, very helpful

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by RendeR

And all I'm saying is that AT THAT TIME, it was not that clear. IMO. Obviously after the fact I was wrong, but remember also that on day 1 the MISSION guaranteed victory in the camp, part of my belief in the missions is the fact that this can happen again. If one of us had recovered an item that guaranteed victory in the camps AGAIN, we wouldn't be being bitched about, no?

By the discussion yesterday and by my own belief I'm not sure anyone thought there was any chance at all of finding a guarantee victory item. I thought it was pretty straight forward that yesterday was all about finding an item for personal use as far as the mission went.

[The Jackal]

render 3 (lathum 1134, autumn 1190, Jackal 1205)
Jackal 2 (Danny 1172, Poli 1202)
PB 1 (EF 914)
Autumn 1 (heinz 1063)
Pass 1 (clap 1116)
clap 1 (Pass 1154)

[dubb93]

Render without quoting your back and forth with Autumn earlier you make it pretty clear that you feel the wolves could have won yesterday without arresting Eaglefan AND with all three of you mission goers on town duty? I agree they probably could have but you sound confident they could have done so with only one faking? Keep in mind with Eaglefans arrest we ended up just 2 units short with three people on the mission.

I agree it is possible, however I think the reason they arrested Eaglefan was because they did not want to have to fake. Had we had everyone on the town it would have forced them to fake, possibly multiple fakes to win the town. That would have narrowed the search today down.

I don't like your arguments today Render, and I don't like your actions yesterday, as such I will:

Vote Render

[Poli]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

thanks for that hit and run vote poli, very helpful

I don't like what I've seen out of you...call it a vibe. I get the feeling you are suggesting one of the three of us that went searching was a sympathizer. I know I'm good, I feel that Render is as well...so that leaves me wondering about you.

It might be like Danny and just be a feeling, but I figure if you're going to use that approach, I should be able to as well.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Poli

I don't like what I've seen out of you...call it a vibe. I get the feeling you are suggesting one of the three of us that went searching was a sympathizer. I know I'm good, I feel that Render is as well...so that leaves me wondering about you.

It might be like Danny and just be a feeling, but I figure if you're going to use that approach, I should be able to as well.

So I've got two people with vibes on me that I can't argue against.. cool. And btw, a lot of people have suggested that one of us is a sympathizer.. it's kind of the reason people have us on their suspect lists, you know? I've said multiple times I hope none of us are, but to rule it out would be foolish.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I'm kind of with you there, Autumn. I forgot that RendeR never revealed his item, that really hasn't gotten much attention.

Really? You think that a wolf getting an item would be so foolish as to be the one of 3 people with an item to not disclose what it does?

C'mon bro.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

Really? You think that a wolf getting an item would be so foolish as to be the one of 3 people with an item to not disclose what it does?

C'mon bro.

Exactly for the reason why you dismiss it, it's the perfect wolf move.

[The Jackal]

Well, not perfect, as it has raised doubts.. but you know what I mean

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Exactly for the reason why you dismiss it, it's the perfect wolf move.

Hogwash.

[jeheinz72]

Unvote Autumn
Vote Jackal

Not a gigantic fan of this vote, but I see RendeR as just being his standard RendeR self so far. Between the two, I think Jackal has been a touch more suspicious. Additionally, I have more trust for the two people on Jackal right now than many of the ones on RendeR.

I'll be around for another 5-10 minutes, then gone until the AM.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

Hogwash.

I really don't understand how that's hogwash, man. Since when do wolves not try and do what the village will perceive as a villager move? Common.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I really don't understand how that's hogwash, man. Since when do wolves not try and do what the village will perceive as a villager move? Common.

I'm saying he's not going to be the lone person of the 3 not to reveal when he's being questioned like he was earlier for even going on said mission. Not if he's a wolf. If he's a wolf, he would've copped the item or used it as a way to deflect and desist the attention.

RendeR's smarter than that.

[jeheinz72]

Basically, as I'm about to leave, it's shaping up as you vs RendeR.

I detest being an outlier vote if I can avoid it, so if I'm picking a horse, it's you.

[The Jackal]

That's a fair opinion, but I think dismissing the possibility that he's a wolf because he made a play that anyone could have made is downright foolish. Who's to say he didn't just give it to another wolf and hope it blew over?

[The Jackal]

i'm out for a bit, ill be back before deadline to answer anything

[dubb93]

I must say I had expected lots of Barkeep votes today. Why has Barkeep gotten the pass today when everyone was all over him the last couple of days.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

I'm saying he's not going to be the lone person of the 3 not to reveal when he's being questioned like he was earlier for even going on said mission. Not if he's a wolf. If he's a wolf, he would've copped the item or used it as a way to deflect and desist the attention.

RendeR's smarter than that.

Either a great point or great wolf cover.

[Danny]

I happen to agree with Jeheinz' thoughts about Render and will not be voting him today. Since it's looking like it's between those two, I will keep my vote where it is.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I must say I had expected lots of Barkeep votes today. Why has Barkeep gotten the pass today when everyone was all over him the last couple of days.

I still want to look at him at some point, but developments today really focused on the events surrounding those who went on the mission yesterday.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

UNVOTE POLI
VOTE CLAPHAMSA


I'll move over to clap, since that vote seemed like he was trying to get a run started at a time when there a lot of outcry against me.

I haven't forgot about this...I could still get behind a Clap vote as well.

[Passacaglia]

Geez, so all day at work, I get crap for being too aggressive on the searchers, and what happens when I leave for a while? Everyone starts voting for searchers!

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Poli

I haven't forgot about this...I could still get behind a Clap vote as well.

Sounds good, I'll leave my vote there for a while just in case.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I don't particularly like clap's vote, but I'm not really getting a read off of him. And if I'm deciding between Poli/RendeR/PB, I'd lean towards RendeR.

Why? What have I done thats actually wolfish? I have a skill that makes me better at searching than others. I used it when I believed we had the camp covered. In hindsight we were pretty well screwed on the camp either way now that we know they could abduct one of our key people. Give us a good reason?

Originally Posted by Autumn

Yeah, and certainly it could be a villager play. Keep it quiet from the wolves. But I have to assume the wolves did, or really tried to, send a wolf for an item. Render has given me the worst vibe out of you, him, Purdue and Norm. I certainly am not very good at reading villager/wolf though so I'm going to keep seeing what other people think.

I'm still not seeing how or where I garnered so much attention? When overall I made the best possible choice with my action yesterday. Getting SOMETHING is still far better than getting NOTHING and having a 1 in 5+chance of lynching a sympathizer. Where is the suspicion coming from?

Originally Posted by dubb93

By the discussion yesterday and by my own belief I'm not sure anyone thought there was any chance at all of finding a guarantee victory item. I thought it was pretty straight forward that yesterday was all about finding an item for personal use as far as the mission went.

There was nothing about finding a guarenteed win item or personal use item, it was about having a chance to find AN item, we all claim to have done so. Poli admits his was a shotgun, Jackals is a weapon which he won't describe and mine is NOT a weapon that I won't describe. There is nothing suspicious about trying to do what our skills tell us we're good at doing. Everyone's getting their panties in a bunch because we chose to use our skills to their fullest instead of adding overkill to the work. Work I remind everyone that even WITH our help was probably NOT going to get completed. Even if we all covered food they could have arrested someone from the others and failed us as well.

Originally Posted by dubb93

Either a great point or great wolf cover.

Yes, I'm sure its a great wolf cover when there is nothing to cover. After being the subject of everyone's scorn today I'm going to continue bringing negative attention on myself (as a sympathizer) by not admitting what my items does. Makes perfect sense. really.


I don't know who to vote for currently. I want to vote Autumn because his entire argument today was specious and badly formed and held a whole lot of "if I say it this way it sounds worse" type posts. but I have to hold my vote for now because Jackal is the only one really close to me vote wise and I have to have a self preservation vote.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Even if we all covered food they could have arrested someone from the others and failed us as well.

We were two short counting EF's arrest. EF was +2, there were 3 of you. Even if they arrested a +3 there were 3 of you.

Are you saying they could have arrested two of us? How do you know this?

[Schmidty]

There is a zero percent chance of me catching up today. I feel really bad because I didn't realize how busy my first week would be.

I have no idea who to vote for.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by dubb93

We were two short counting EF's arrest. EF was +2, there were 3 of you. Even if they arrested a +3 there were 3 of you.

Are you saying they could have arrested two of us? How do you know this?

What the fuck are you talking about?

They could have arrested someone from a DIFFERENT task. holy hell.

we were only 1 over on everything without the searchers. WITH the searchers we could have protected the food AND been 2 over on one other task, which leaves them TWO tasks to arrest someone with a +3 from to screw us.

WHy is this such a hard concept for everyone to grasp?

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by RendeR

What the fuck are you talking about?

They could have arrested someone from a DIFFERENT task. holy hell.

we were only 1 over on everything without the searchers. WITH the searchers we could have protected the food AND been 2 over on one other task, which leaves them TWO tasks to arrest someone with a +3 from to screw us.

WHy is this such a hard concept for everyone to grasp?

Is your math right? Without the searchers and with EF he had 29 of 29 hours required. With the searchers and EF we would have had 32 of 29 hours. Why is simple math so hard to grasp?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by RendeR

What the fuck are you talking about?

They could have arrested someone from a DIFFERENT task. holy hell.

we were only 1 over on everything without the searchers. WITH the searchers we could have protected the food AND been 2 over on one other task, which leaves them TWO tasks to arrest someone with a +3 from to screw us.

WHy is this such a hard concept for everyone to grasp?

Not to put words in his mouth, but I believe what he's saying is:

We had one extra man-hour available as the mission deadline approached (up one). We lost three of them in EagleFan, so we were down two. If they had arrested someone else, we would have been down two in a different area. If you three hadn't gone on the mission, you would have been able to switch your work to whatever area we lost work in.

[dubb93]

29(required) - 2(eaglefan) = 27(our total work done yesterday)

29(with eaglefan) + 3(the searchers) = 32 - 3(someone they could have arrested) = 29(required)

Am I missing something?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Is your math right? Without the searchers and with EF he had 29 of 29 hours required. With the searchers and EF we would have had 32 of 29 hours. Why is simple math so hard to grasp?

]Because you obviously can't think past someone working on FOOD being arrested.

Why couldn;t they arrest someone in the OTHER two areas?

All three items had to be complete to succeed.

If we went +3 on food, they simply arrest someone from one of the other TWO areas and that area fails and so does the camp.

Is that clear enough now? its not as simple as having 32 units to cover 29, its having the units to cover EVERYthing in full, and if any one thing fails then the whole camp fails.

This is how I understand the camps working, ABE feel free to correct me here.

[dubb93]

I thought Eaglefan said he was +2 not +3?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by dubb93

29(required) - 2(eaglefan) = 27(our total work done yesterday)

29(with eaglefan) + 3(the searchers) = 32 - 3(someone they could have arrested) = 29(required)

Am I missing something?

See previous post. its not that simple.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by RendeR

]Because you obviously can't think past someone working on FOOD being arrested.

Why couldn;t they arrest someone in the OTHER two areas?

All three items had to be complete to succeed.

If we went +3 on food, they simply arrest someone from one of the other TWO areas and that area fails and so does the camp.

Is that clear enough now? its not as simple as having 32 units to cover 29, its having the units to cover EVERYthing in full, and if any one thing fails then the whole camp fails.

This is how I understand the camps working, ABE feel free to correct me here.

As far as I know the +3 people on food could have simply typed

unwork food
work where they were needed and we would have been covered.

[Chief Rum]

Okay, like Schmidty, I have no chance of catching up and getting a good read on things until later tonight. I am going to have to submit my work and vote now, though.

From what I can tell, we still need another Treasury, so I'll do that.

WORK TREASURY

Still considering my vote.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Not to put words in his mouth, but I believe what he's saying is:

We had one extra man-hour available as the mission deadline approached (up one). We lost three of them in EagleFan, so we were down two. If they had arrested someone else, we would have been down two in a different area. If you three hadn't gone on the mission, you would have been able to switch your work to whatever area we lost work in.

thats MY point, no matter HOW we would have placed our work all they had to do was arrest ONE person in whichever work area was shortest to make THAT area fail.

This is why I said in hindsight earlier that we were pretty much fucked either way.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I thought Eaglefan said he was +2 not +3?

He does 3 instead of 1....that is technically +2, but we've been calling it x3.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by dubb93

29(required) - 2(eaglefan) = 27(our total work done yesterday)

29(with eaglefan) + 3(the searchers) = 32 - 3(someone they could have arrested) = 29(required)

Am I missing something?

Different skill sets needed today. Not quite so simple, as Render noted.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by RendeR

See previous post. its not that simple.

How is it not that simple?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by dubb93

As far as I know the +3 people on food could have simply typed

unwork food
work where they were needed and we would have been covered.

At which point someone would have faked work in food and then where are we? 10 people working on food, who do we vote?

Think folks, its not that damn convoluted, really.

[RendeR]

Dubb you're arugument is understandable, but its like you're wearing blinders, there isn't a limited "if we covered it all we were fine, they had the warrent to use, they most likely could have faked work as well, there is no reason to believe they couldn't.

Either way you want to think about it this still does not in absolutely any way make me look any more suspicious than anyone else. its like I'm being voted for because I dare to have a brain. THINK people.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by RendeR

At which point someone would have faked work in food and then where are we? 10 people working on food, who do we vote?

Think folks, its not that damn convoluted, really.

I never once argued they couldn't have faked. I was just trying to figure out why you think anyone they would have arrested was death to us if we had the 3 searchers on town duty.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Dubb you're arugument is understandable, but its like you're wearing blinders, there isn't a limited "if we covered it all we were fine, they had the warrent to use, they most likely could have faked work as well, there is no reason to believe they couldn't.

Either way you want to think about it this still does not in absolutely any way make me look any more suspicious than anyone else. its like I'm being voted for because I dare to have a brain. THINK people.

No I think you are being voted because you insisted all day that we couldn't have covered the work had you three been on it. You really never brought the faking into it all day which is a point well taken and one I knew before. Yes they could have faked. Did they want to? Obviously not since they arrested EF.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I never once argued they couldn't have faked. I was just trying to figure out why you think anyone they would have arrested was death to us if we had the 3 searchers on town duty.

Umm maybe because it was because they COULD FAKE WORK TOO?

if we covered everything they arrested someone and fake ONE work item and we lose.

How is what I'm saying not plainly obvious here?

[dubb93]

Unvote RendeR
Vote Barkeep

He went UTR the day of the vote after pushing his agenda the last couple of days(and drawing heat from lots) when there was no vote.