WikiLeaks

[molson]

I love when the left gets all anti-big-government.

Yes, wikileaks is very probably a more honest, efficient, and comptent organization than the DoD. That's not surprising at all. I'm not sure that necessarily puts wikileaks in the moral clear. ("Hey, we gave the bloated, wasteful government a chance to do a bunch of work and mitigate the damage we cause - but they didn't, so don't blame us!")

[RainMaker]

I don't see how this is a left vs right issue. Or did you just feel that the thread needed some partisian hackery to make you feel better?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by molson

I love when the left gets all anti-big-government.

I am amused by this but not as much as how the anti big-government right slurps up wasting trillions on endless war and domestic policing.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by molson

I love when the left gets all anti-big-government.

Yes, wikileaks is very probably a more honest, efficient, and comptent organization than the DoD. That's not surprising at all. I'm not sure that necessarily puts wikileaks in the moral clear. ("Hey, we gave the bloated, wasteful government a chance to do a bunch of work and mitigate the damage we cause - but they didn't, so don't blame us!")

Is the better solution to allow the government to keep secret whatever they deem necessary, without question? How else would Wikileaks know what to redact?

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Is the better solution to allow the government to keep secret whatever they deem necessary, without question? How else would Wikileaks know what to redact?

I think wikileaks might have a better handle on the war in Afghanistan than the government at this point.

I'm just saying, don't expect the federal government to be responsive. If wikileaks is fine with that, and they understand that what they put out potentially puts people at risk (and I have no idea if it really does), but that what they're doing is important enough to justify that, than fine. They're just being a little disingenuous if their stated plan is to put out tens of thousands of documents and rely on the government to clean up the mess.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by molson

I think wikileaks might have a better handle on the war in Afghanistan than the government at this point.

I'm just saying, don't expect the federal government to be responsive. If wikileaks is fine with that, and they understand that what they put out potentially puts people at risk (and I have no idea if it really does), but that what they're doing is important enough to justify that, than fine. They're just being a little disingenuous if their stated plan is to put out tens of thousands of documents and rely on the government to clean up the mess.

If you ever hear an interview with Julian Assante it is quite clear what the reason for the leaks is. He makes no bones about his opposition to the Afgan war and the American empire. Feel free to agree or disagree with him but he has never hidden behind any fake intentions of why he released all those papers. He hopes that it will cause enough furor (i.e. Pentagon Papers) to end the American empire in the Middle East.

[Scoobz0202]

Just got a text message about the founder being charged for molestation and rape in sweden

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

Just got a text message about the founder being charged for molestation and rape in sweden

I am always playing the role of the conspiracy theorist here on FOFC so I will leave this one to the rest of the board. Is he being set-up or right in the middle of the intense world media coverage and with the pentagon's watchful eye on him 24/7 did he decide to release the other documents and then to go out and commit rape?

[jeff061]

Who knows. Would be pretty damn easy to set him up, but dangerously obvious as well.

Who knows what went down. The guy is sort of a nut job, so no I wouldn't be shocked if he did this recently. But who know, maybe its something that happened years ago(if it happened at all).

[jeff061]

Warrant canceled.
BBC News - Swedish rape warrant for Wikileaks' Assange cancelled
Not really informative.

No harm no foul right . I hate authorities.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Warrant canceled.
BBC News - Swedish rape warrant for Wikileaks' Assange cancelled
Not really informative.

No harm no foul right . I hate authorities.

I honestly think the governments are having a lot of trouble spreading propaganda nowadays with the internet. I also think we are headed towards an information shutdown for "national security purposes" sometime in the near future. Twenty years ago this guy wouldn't have even made a single newspaper in the United States and would have been killed by the next day. And even had he made the news this rape thing probably would have worked. This isn't to say that they haven't found another way that I am completely oblivious to for spreading disinformation just that a lot of the old tricks don't work so well when with a computer and an internet connection you can talk to a large portion of the world instantly.

[jeff061]

Totally agree. Despite all the use, attention and awareness, the internet's true effect on mankind is still vastly underrated by most. Very interesting times.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Totally agree. Despite all the use, attention and awareness, the internet's true effect on mankind is still vastly underrated by most. Very interesting times.

I think they would love to shut it down but have no idea how to shut it down. If they just go total shutdown than all the casual facebook users, twitter followers, fantasy football players, yahoo games players will be up in arms and may actually decide to play a role in an uprising. The government doesn't want that. My guess would be some sort of cyber attack by a "terrorist" organization that makes it necessary for them to shutdown a lot of questionable sites. Or blanket regulation that to the casual news reader will seem aimed at Al Qaida and the bogeyman but will also shut down a lot of general dissent in this country. But you are right I don't think they have any control over this anymore and the internet may be the most powerful thing to have happened to the world and government oppression since the printing press. Not to say they won't try with bills like HEN10553, Protecting Cyberspace as a National Asset Act.

[Bigsmooth]

Holy balls.

[jeff061]

For now the West is in a place where it still functions extremely well as a propaganda machine towards our rival's citizens. For the most part pure and self generated by the populace.

But the second our way of life changes and becomes less desirable, if the economy spirals towards catastrophe, there will be the risk of that advantage flipping sides. The question is if their attempt to regain control and lock things down is overt or covert. My feeling is the government will predict this change well before the public does and will covertly begin putting cotrols in place. We very well may already be at that point.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

i wouldn't be surprised if he wins a nobel peace prize

Posthumously I hope.

[jeff061]

Is Assange the target of a U.S. smear campaign? – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs

I only post this because cnn.com quoted a user from the something awful forums, even linked to it. Which I found fantastic.

[Greyroofoo]

Ah yes, this whole US smear campaign has the makings of a good conspiracy.

"Unless they can prove an event is NOT true then I must assume it IS true."

Intellectually lazy IMO.

[jeff061]

"Unless they can prove an event is NOT true then I must assume it IS true."

What are we talking about, him being a rapist or there being a conspiracy.

It's not exactly JFK, moon landing or 9/11 here. I am not going to go right out and say, yeah, the US is behind it. But it's not like they'd have to try hard or expend many resources to make it happen.

I wish they gave a few more details on both why they went public with the accusation and then why they pulled it. The government can't say "Fucking rapist get in here", then make it go away with "Oops, NM, my bad." The only thing that does point to a smear is how bizarre and nebulous it's been thus far. Weird for such a major accusation with an internationally known person.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

"Unless they can prove an event is NOT true then I must assume it IS true."

Intellectually lazy IMO.

Extremely lazy.

Russell's teapot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

Ah yes, this whole US smear campaign has the makings of a good conspiracy.

"Unless they can prove an event is NOT true then I must assume it IS true."

Intellectually lazy IMO.

Saw this on another board and shows my viewpoint about whether the benefit of the doubt goes to the governement or individuals.

"That government provides concentrated power and access to (other's) wealth in almost unlimited supplies, that it enjoys a monopoly of force and violence, that those employed and favored by it are not subject to the same laws as the rest of us, that rules are changes whenever desired -- even after the fact -- are all facts out in the open and cannot be disputed. No conspiracy theory needed.

Which is more of a stretch -- that those favored by such rules only think the whole day through of how they can help their fellow man in a kind, loving, altruistic manner, with all considerations fully transparent to public scrutiny -- in other words, every one of them more of a Christ-like character than Christ; or that they are spending their time in secret meetings closed to public view, considering ways to utilize their special "power" to further consolidate their own power and wealth?

Yes, one of these two camps is truly populated by the tin-foil-hat brigade. "

[JPhillips]

Washington (CNN) -- The online leak of thousands of secret military documents from the war in Afghanistan by the website WikiLeaks did not disclose any sensitive intelligence sources or methods, the Department of Defense concluded.

"The initial assessment in no way discounts the risk to national security," Gates wrote. "However, the review to date has not revealed any sensitive intelligence sources and methods compromised by the disclosure."

The defense secretary said that the published documents do contain names of some cooperating Afghans, who could face reprisal by Taliban.

But a senior NATO official in Kabul told CNN that there has not been a single case of Afghans needing protection or to be moved because of the leak.

.

[molson]

That's the good news, the bad news is that he's not allowed to live in Sweden (though it probably has nothing to do with wikileaks - Sweden just understands that its easier to provide abundant government services if you know who the hell is in the country).

Also, he might have a thing for raping Swedish women....

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2010/1...s-founder.html

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Iraq war logs: secret files show how US ignored torture | World news | The Guardian

Take 2.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Iraq war logs: secret files show how US ignored torture | World news | The Guardian

Take 2.

Tortured detainees, civilian deaths, nothing new there.

The parts about Iran funding the insurgency, and that those hikers were actually arrested in Iraq - sounds like they were leaked by the U.S.

[cartman]

Sounds like the UK police are going to take the unprecedented step of entering the Ecuadorean embassy and take Assange into custody.

UK police descend on Assange's embassy refuge

[panerd]

Originally Posted by cartman

Sounds like the UK police are going to take the unprecedented step of entering the Ecuadorean embassy and take Assange into custody.

UK police descend on Assange's embassy refuge

Eh the US and UK only force other countries to follow international law. If it doesn't jibe with what they want to do fuck it. If someone else doesn't follow the same laws though who cares about a stupid thing like sovereignty?

[Dutch]

Assange's supporters say the charges are trumped up and believe the US has secretly indicted him and would extradite him from Sweden.

This was curious, so I checked wikileaks and can confirm that the US hasn't secretly indicted him.

[JediKooter]

Don't piss off the Ecuadorians...

[panerd]

I know that I stand on the opposite side of the fence as a lot of you guys on all of the NSA/Wikileaks/PRISM controversies but articles like this one just me wonder if we really have just lost our way with our priorities as a country. Sadly this will get just as much if not more play than the whole debate over the 4th amendment. This isn't news it belongs on TMZ or the National Enquirer. Who cares? Why is this front page news?

Bradley Manning wants to live as a woman, be known as Chelsea - CNN.com

[SackAttack]

I don't think that's even new info; I want to say there were stories along those lines when he was first arrested.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by panerd

I know that I stand on the opposite side of the fence as a lot of you guys on all of the NSA/Wikileaks/PRISM controversies but articles like this one just me wonder if we really have just lost our way with our priorities as a country. Sadly this will get just as much if not more play than the whole debate over the 4th amendment. This isn't news it belongs on TMZ or the National Enquirer. Who cares? Why is this front page news?

Bradley Manning wants to live as a woman, be known as Chelsea - CNN.com

Just like how we found out everything nonsensical and pointless about Edward Snowden in the 72 hours after the leak, rather than focusing on the more important issues it illuminated.

SI

[Kodos]

Just like we've spent Obama's entire presidency with people questioning if he was an American citizen. People like sensational crap, and it unfortunately is now channeled to us through supposedly legitimate news sources who have to fill 24 hours of coverage with something.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by panerd

Why is this front page news?

A month from now it probably isn't, but 24 hours (+/-) after the sentencing? And based on a statement released by the convicted criminal himself?

Following up would have been among the lead stories today regardless, this just happens to be the freshest angle about it.

Add in at least the possibility of the hormone therapy being at federal government expense (it could be) AND questions about whether this would get him out of Leavenworth for a women's prison (very doubtful) and there's stuff here that a sizable number of people want to know about.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Just like how we found out everything nonsensical and pointless about Edward Snowden in the 72 hours after the leak, rather than focusing on the more important issues it illuminated.

SI

Yep. And like I said I don't even mind people on the government side on these issues. (I disagree but the debate is healthy ) Sadly though the only thing the press gives us is Assange the rapist, Manning the transgender, Snowden's girlfriend the stripper. Is it what we want or what sells?

(And who knows if it is more the fault of the media or the consumer all I know is that it is sad either way)

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

A month from now it probably isn't, but 24 hours (+/-) after the sentencing? And based on a statement released by the convicted criminal himself?

Following up would have been among the lead stories today regardless, this just happens to be the freshest angle about it.

Add in at least the possibility of the hormone therapy being at federal government expense (it could be) AND questions about whether this would get him out of Leavenworth for a women's prison (very doubtful) and there's stuff here that a sizable number of people want to know about.

I am sure our tax dollars are paying for all sorts of stupid things so I would have to say that paying for Bradley Manning's hormone therepy is not making me lose sleep at night. (Some of the stuff revealed in those documents... different story)

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by panerd

Yep. And like I said I don't even mind people on the government side on these issues. (I disagree but the debate is healthy ) Sadly though the only thing the press gives us is Assange the rapist, Manning the transgender, Snowden's girlfriend the stripper. Is it what we want or what sells?

(And who knows if it is more the fault of the media or the consumer all I know is that it is sad either way)

And then one can argue if the media should be held to a higher standard than just "what is most profitable" but I know that one falls on deaf ears a lot

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

And then one can argue if the media should be held to a higher standard than just "what is most profitable" but I know that one falls on deaf ears a lot

You don't even have to settle for that one.

If you made all the content equally profitable there's still the issue of "what will people watch".

The most high-minded presentation in the world accomplishes little if few people give a big enough damn to watch.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Just like how we found out everything nonsensical and pointless about Edward Snowden in the 72 hours after the leak, rather than focusing on the more important issues it illuminated.

SI

Wouldn't this just inspire more leakers?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Mike D

Wouldn't this just inspire more leakers?

Depends. If you're whistleblowing for altruistic reasons, you wouldn't care about getting your name in the press (and the fact that it might would be a deterrent). You want the notoriety to go to the story and what you are trying to warn the public about.

But if you just want 15 minutes of fame, yes.

SI

[Dutch]

The biggest problem I have with giving this guys "objective" the limelight is that there are a lot of idiots in the government (and a few) that might think they are doing the right thing by going to China or Russia. The media won't care what is leaked and will be damned sure to print it first and question the logic of it later.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Depends. If you're whistleblowing for altruistic reasons, you wouldn't care about getting your name in the press (and the fact that it might would be a deterrent). You want the notoriety to go to the story and what you are trying to warn the public about.

But if you just want 15 minutes of fame, yes.

I think most leakers these days want the 15 minutes. Snowden and Manning are massive narcissists.

[sterlingice]

I suspect both of you are probably true. However, I don't think we have a really good view of either as things get so distorted in the public media view.

SI

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Thousands of documents release showing spending of Saudi monarchy.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-10334541.html

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Thousands of documents release showing spending of Saudi monarchy.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-10334541.html

I had a good friend who grew up all over the Middle East and Europe (his Dad was a contractor). Says Saudi Arabia is by far the worst country he's ever been in from a humanity perspective.