Werewolf LXXXVIII: Game Thread

[Danny]

And Good job Alan, sucks you had to go, but you nabbed us Lucifer in the process

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Danny

I feel better about Kwhit now. I was pretty sure one wolf was between the two of them, but I don't think two wolves make that mid-late vote on Telle.

I never really felt KWhit was that strong of a candidate (yet, at least).

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Why would Alan and Real Deal have lied about that unless they were demons?

And, now, of course, Alan is proven to be an Angel. Well done, Mr. Cleared Villager.

yes of course alan's death is my fault. Please. He was dead either way in this scenario.
How is anything I did or said changing the outcome? hm?? its not. based on what I read nothing we did would have changed it even IF they'd have voted right away.

the only thing that would have changed is this argument, since if they'd just fucking voted ahead of time it never would have happened.

[Chief Rum]

Not MY shortlist, of course. But no one else will ignore me on theirs, I think.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

So Alastor selected both Alan (angel) and Pass (BG) at the start of the game and that's why they're both dead? Man, talk about some horrible luck.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

But we have lost both the BG and the Seer, and RD is almost certainly dead tonight. And we still don't really have a clue who the demons are.

I can make some educated guesses. I am on the short list, actually, among those uncleared who are left.

Did we lose the BG, I thought he was a guard, but his ability was to kill a player. I think we still have the BG.

And we still have likely 9 players right now on the good side with one remaining demon having their power used up. And while we hopefully can find the demons, we still have the added pressure of the cathedral.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RendeR

yes of course alan's death is my fault. Please. He was dead either way in this scenario.
How is anything I did or said changing the outcome? hm?? its not. based on what I read nothing we did would have changed it even IF they'd have voted right away.

the only thing that would have changed is this argument, since if they'd just fucking voted ahead of time it never would have happened.

I didn't blame his death on you. Re-read what you quoted.

[Barkeep49]

We're at the weekend. Everyone needs to take a deep breath. A deep deep breath.

[Danny]

Nevermind, I only scanned Pass' pm, he was the BG.

[RealDeal]

1. Suspicious List (in order)

Packerfan
Jheinz
Jackal

2. Semi Suspicious list

Kwhit
Chief Rum

Note: based on the choices made by Alastor, I suspect Alastor is at least a fairly experienced player

[DaddyTorgo]

I prescribe for everyone a nice WW-free weekend so everyone can take a chill pill.

[RealDeal]

Ok you guys have my last will and testament.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I prescribe for everyone a nice WW-free weekend so everyone can take a chill pill.

I think most of us stayed pretty calm .

[Danny]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

Ok you guys have my last will and testament.

Next deadline is monday morning, so you'll at least have a couple days in the hospital.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

So Alastor selected both Alan (angel) and Pass (BG) at the start of the game and that's why they're both dead? Man, talk about some horrible luck.

Reading BK's post again, it looks like only Pass was selected by Alastor, leaving Alan to fall victim to hoops' brutal kill.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I didn't blame his death on you. Re-read what you quoted.

I know what I quoted. The "well done" bit was a real polite "up yours" chief. Nice.

The fact is I DID believe them, I simply wanted them to support their own position, not sit back and say "go do this so we can play in our own sandbox" It isn't enough to give some unsubstantiated reasoning and expect people to do the dirty work for you.

I'm done with this argument. If you can't see why Alan pissed me off in this situation you never will. So be it.

[Chief Rum]

Wait a sec, I think we were just handed a big prize by the demons, unintentionally. Well, nothing certain, but it's more gristle for the mill.

Here is Alastor's description, per the game rules.

Alastor – At the start of the game may designate 3 players. If those players vote for a demon on the day that demon is lynched, those players will automatically die, except if that player is St. Gabriel or a particular player on the villager side.

Alan died because he was one of the three picked. This makes sense. Alastor already knew who the demons were, and it's logical he would have picked Alan as one of his three, since Alan is a dangerous villager (and already known by Alastor to not be a demon).

There were a lot of votes on hoops. And those three selected would die when hoops was lynched. Alan was the only one. hoops had to use his action changing ability (the one he also used on hoops to change his work action on Day One, see my reasoning late last night that that action could only be one of Lucifer's abilities).

I am trying to work this around in my mind to see if this gives us clues as to the identities of the other two they picked, who would then also not be demons (or they're dead). I haven't finished my thought process on it, but I wanted to toss it out there for public consumption to see if anyone else has any thoughts.

One thing muddying the waters--I am pretty sure the other demons are not on hoops currently. No way they vote for hoops. This vote was too close (which would also put weight to clearing people who did vote for hoops, at least when it was still up in the air).

And this clears JE and Render in my mind for sure. JE made the vote that really got hoops lynched, double-voting to really put him in the lead. No way JE is a wolf. You're thinking "well, duh, of course he's not a wolf, Render and he, lovers, etc.", but really we had no real serious evidence until now that they were being honest, and with the "helpful villager" Render has been playing, it seemed reasonable before now to consider that JE and Render were playing an elaborate ploy as demons to garner trust.

Now that JE, in my mind, is pretty much cleared, that for sure clears Render, too.

There is a TON to analyze in this game. And I am very good at that.

I will put some more thought into this before the demons come after me (and I have all weekend, ha ha).

[RealDeal]

Two things just for the record with Hoops.

I haven't played WW in a while, but the last game I was in, I was a wolf with Hoops. Having played on that side with him was really the biggest factor in sniffing out that he was a wolf. Particularly when he started doing all the posts earlier today that were sort of categorizing information. It reminded me of exactly what he did when he was a wolf with me.

Alan and I started discussing it and noticed that Gabriel was completely silent. So I asked Gabriel point blank "What do you think about Hoops". Gabriel took forever to respond, and then the answer we got was incredibly clunky and non-commital. (Note: I think the Gabriel and Lucifer know each other mechnism is unnecessary and very clunky. Puts those two people in some impossible situations.)

Alan and I were intending to lay low this round and build spiritual health, but when we felt strongly we had Lucifer, we decided to go for it. As soon as we named Hoops and he didn't reveal a role, we were 99.9% sure we were right. Also, if he had been a human, we were expecting the demons to pile on him pretty quickly and that didnt happen. It felt like the demons were scrambling for a bit trying to figure out what to do.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I know what I quoted. The "well done" bit was a real polite "up yours" chief. Nice.

The fact is I DID believe them, I simply wanted them to support their own position, not sit back and say "go do this so we can play in our own sandbox" It isn't enough to give some unsubstantiated reasoning and expect people to do the dirty work for you.

I'm done with this argument. If you can't see why Alan pissed me off in this situation you never will. So be it.

Glad you can read through my Chief speak. I thought maybe I was being too subtle.

This is about your ego, about being challenged. That sucks. I understand not liking being told what to do. But, really, it had nothing to do with that, but some macho pissing match you got into, where you fell into your M.O., seeing some "slight" no one else does, going off the handle as you often have, and then being too proud and stubborn to calm yourself down and return to the logic that told you to believe them in the first place.

You rip Alan for his doggedness and tunnel vision, but you regularly do exactly the same thing, and on top of that, you're insulting to people, too.

Being done with the argument doesn't much matter now. I wish you had been "done" with the argument hours ago--it would have caused a lot less damage to this thread and this game.

I will do what you did not. I will not say anything more about this. Take your shot if you want. I won't address it further, and my apologies to BK for deciding to take this one last post before desisting.

[Danny]

Chief, you said AlanT was Alastor and Pass was brutal kill. But Jonathan said the opposite, which one is right?

[Danny]

You know, it would have been hysterical if AlanT was St. Gabriel, the PM's between the two would have been something Im sure.

[Danny]

I'm pretty sure Pass was killed by Alastor. On BK's writeup I just noticed Pass' attacks were switched to Hoopsguy. I'm assuming Hoops did this knowing Pass was on Alastor's list. There is also no mention of brutal powers for Hoops, so both kills were from Alastor.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Danny

Chief, you said AlanT was Alastor and Pass was brutal kill. But Jonathan said the opposite, which one is right?

No, I think I was unclear. Sorry about that.

Alastor is still in the game, and we don't know his identity (yet).

He had the ability to name three players, presumeably non-demons, who would die if they voted for a demon on the day that demon was lynched. Alan was one of those players selected, which is why he died when hoops died. Pass was also selected, but he did not vote for hoops. So hoops, as Lucifer, used his ability to change Pass's vote from wherever it was (I forget) to hoops.

So Pass and Alan were two of the three players Alastor selected. There is a third, and whoever it is, it is a villager who is potentially cleared and who did not vote for hoops today--or that person is dead.

It will be a veteran, experienced wolf. Frankly, I am probably a strong candidate to be that third player, which means I could die if I vote for a demon who is lynched that same day. It could be a player who was dead before (Lathum would be a good choice), but I would tend to discount wolf kills as the last Alastor choice, since it's likely a demon would be outed and all three players would end up on the demon. Why would the wolves throw away free kills? They would kill people not chosen by Alastor and hope that the three vote for a demon on their own. They would only go after one of Alastor's three if that person clearly demonstrated he was an Angel or a villager with a significant role.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Danny

Chief, you said AlanT was Alastor and Pass was brutal kill. But Jonathan said the opposite, which one is right?

Sorry, I'm confusing even myself. Upon further review (i.e. reading Page One more carefully), Alan and Pass were both killed by Alastor's power.

[RendeR]

Yup, its just my asshole quality screaming out into the universe. Simple enough to look at that than consider there might be an issue with anyone else. Good one. Run with that logic. Blinders make horses calmer too.


/End topic.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Danny

I'm pretty sure Pass was killed by Alastor. On BK's writeup I just noticed Pass' attacks were switched to Hoopsguy. I'm assuming Hoops did this knowing Pass was on Alastor's list. There is also no mention of brutal powers for Hoops, so both kills were from Alastor.

Yup, you posted this while I was pointing it out in a much longer post, lol.

I earlier was thinking one Alastor choice died tonight, until I thought on it some more and realized Pass had to have been on the list, too.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

Sorry, I'm confusing even myself. Upon further review (i.e. reading Page One more carefully), Alan and Pass were both killed by Alastor's power.

Don't be confused. You and Danny (and myself) are all correct.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

It will be a veteran, experienced wolf.

This is assuming that Alastor was not able to speak to the other demons before he had to put in that list.

[The Jackal]

Lucifer dying = good day in my book.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

PF – Jackal (665), KWhit (769), Hoops (810)
Pass – Jackal (665), Packer (691), Render (773)
Heinz – CR (770), CR (770), DT (779)
Hoops – Heniz (687), Danny (729), Danny (729), JE (787), JE (787), DT (779), Alan (799), Alan (799), Real (800), Real (800), Pass, Pass, Unknown 1, Unknown 2

Walls – Hoops (655), Packer (657), Heinz (686), Tyrith (803), Tyrith (803)
Capentry – Kwhit (754)
Roof – Render (783)

Walls - Repaired
Roof - 6 shifts
Windows - 7 shifts
Artwork - Repaired
Carpentry - Repaired

Here's the final vote count without the color commentary.

Here are the surviving voters on hoops: heinz, Danny, JE, DT and Real.

None of these three were selected by Alastor as the third choice. I am also of the strong opinion none of them are demons, except maybe DT, who could have reasonably figured hoops was a goner at the time that he voted. RD was cleared anyway, and I am pretty certain JE is cleared.

That means the third choice by Alastor is either dead or one of the following:

Jackal, KWhit, PackerFanatic, Render, Chief Rum, Tyrith

Lathum and PB were killed by the wolves. I don't think they were selected. If Lathum were still alive, he would be a strong candidate to be the third choice.

Not trying to toot my own horn, because the above list has some WW vets, but my guess is, having just played a game with hoops as a wolf, that he would have strongly recommended I be one of the three picked. If not me, KWhit would probably be a good guess. But, really, there's nothing here to hang your hat on, because any of the above six might have been chosen, since all of them are proven WW vets with strong histories.

I am pretty certain there is at least one demon in this group, and quite likely two, depending on how everyone feels about DaddyTorgo. Render is already cleared.

For me personally, I take myself out, and my gut says Tyrith is okay. That leaves me with a choice of KWhit, The Jackal and PackerFanatic (two of them) as likely demons. Everyone else will no doubt (and rightly) include me as a possible demon (I am just a butcher, though, with no abilities, unfortunately, you would think my skill with knives would make a candidate to get a free demon kill, for shame...).

Interestingly enough, PF had a lot of attention on him, and KWhit and The Jackal both drew votes and interest as well.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

This is assuming that Alastor was not able to speak to the other demons before he had to put in that list.

Why would you assume this? Maybe Real Deal can confirm if he was able to converse with the other Angels right away. If so, it stands to reason the demons were, too.

Actually, even if Alastor couldn't speak to other demons, but only knew their identities, he would still likely pick experienced veteran non-demons. There aren't any newbies in this game. Everyone knows the various reps of the other players in this game. He wouldn't need to communicate with the other demons to pick dangerous villagers.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Here's the final vote count without the color commentary.

Here are the surviving voters on hoops: heinz, Danny, JE, DT and Real.

None of these three were selected by Alastor as the third choice. I am also of the strong opinion none of them are demons, except maybe DT, who could have reasonably figured hoops was a goner at the time that he voted. RD was cleared anyway, and I am pretty certain JE is cleared.

That means the third choice by Alastor is either dead or one of the following:

Jackal, KWhit, PackerFanatic, Render, Chief Rum, Tyrith

Lathum and PB were killed by the wolves. I don't think they were selected. If Lathum were still alive, he would be a strong candidate to be the third choice.

Not trying to toot my own horn, because the above list has some WW vets, but my guess is, having just played a game with hoops as a wolf, that he would have strongly recommended I be one of the three picked. If not me, KWhit would probably be a good guess. But, really, there's nothing here to hang your hat on, because any of the above six might have been chosen, since all of them are proven WW vets with strong histories.

I am pretty certain there is at least one demon in this group, and quite likely two, depending on how everyone feels about DaddyTorgo. Render is already cleared.

For me personally, I take myself out, and my gut says Tyrith is okay. That leaves me with a choice of KWhit, The Jackal and PackerFanatic (two of them) as likely demons. Everyone else will no doubt (and rightly) include me as a possible demon (I am just a butcher, though, with no abilities, unfortunately, you would think my skill with knives would make a candidate to get a free demon kill, for shame...).

Interestingly enough, PF had a lot of attention on him, and KWhit and The Jackal both drew votes and interest as well.

I pretty much feel the same way as Chief except I would put Jeheinz in the there with PF, Kwhit and The Jackal.

I'm really hoping CR is good this game

[PackerFanatic]

Wow - I missed a lot on Friday night. Almost got chopped and wasn't around to defend myself. And the fact I voted for Pass (another cleared villager) hurts my chances even more. Should be interesting to see what happens tonight (well, tomorrow morning, but you know what i mean)

[Danny]

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

Wow - I missed a lot on Friday night. Almost got chopped and wasn't around to defend myself. And the fact I voted for Pass (another cleared villager) hurts my chances even more. Should be interesting to see what happens tonight (well, tomorrow morning, but you know what i mean)

Just get yourself ready, you're likely to be one of the people on the chopping block Monday .

[RealDeal]

Packerfan seems like a good choice to me right now, as far as lynching. Jheinz the other: why would he split his vote on a close race like that? Casting two votes but splitting them is as good as not voting at all. Looked to me like one cover your ass vote on Hoops and the other two ensure that Hoops didn't get too far ahead.

One thing to keep in mind, the vote on Hoops probably has all the information we need to find the other demons. Their goal was to keep the vote close so Alan T would have to cast his vote, since they knew Alan T's vote would kill him.

Think about it, you had two confirmed angels telling everyone they were confident that Hoops was a demon, probably Lucifer. Anyone who didn't vote for Hoops in light of that fact is suspicious. Why would someone vote for Pass or whoever else, when two confirmed angels said to vote for someone else? In this case, there was a reason. It was no accident that the voting was muddled and close between multiple people, that was the demons' plan. But the price was that they had to give us a lot of information.

I want to get this out because I think i will be dead soon. So don't forget my suspicion list and don't forget the Hoops vote. I think your answers will be there.

[Danny]

RealDeal, Jackal is the one who split his vote. Jeheinz actually put one vote on hoops and worked with his other vote.

[Danny]

One thing I am surprised about is why the wolves didn't jump more on my initial vote of Kwhit. I mentioned I felt strongly there was a wolf between he and Hoopsguy and I think it would have made some sense to go after Kwhit had he not been a wolf.

I'd put my list suspect list as
PackerFanatic
Jackal
Jeheinz
Kwhit

Not necessarily in that order btw.

I'd have CR, Tyrith and DT a notch lower.

[Tyrith]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

One thing to keep in mind, the vote on Hoops probably has all the information we need to find the other demons. Their goal was to keep the vote close so Alan T would have to cast his vote, since they knew Alan T's vote would kill him.

This is the absolute key to us figuring out this puzzle.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

UNVOTE JEHEINZ
VOTE PACKERFANATIC

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I think that move was futile, but I would certainly welcome a bail out.

These were two of hoops' last posts before the lynch, and includes his final vote. They were two minutes before deadline and three minutes after the AT and RD votes that pretty much put him out of reach.

My guess is the early heinz vote by hoops (which I followed him with two of my own) was a real attempt to keep from getting lynched, or allowing a fellow demon to get lynched. Even as he stuck with his heinz vote, with no support (I hadn't voted yet) as late as Post #751, just a half hour before the lynch, PF was sitting there with an equal three votes against him to hoops' three votes.

Given the above move, a futile move made when hoops knew he was a goner, his unwillingness to move to PF earlier when a run could have been made against another very real lynch candidate, and my own analysis above that shows PF as a highly likely suspect based on where his voting was in the hoops vote, I have to think PF is a demon. This last vote above was an attempt to give PF some space.

I was going to do further vote and work shift analysis, but, frankly, I am as concerned with revealing Gabriel, as I am finding demons. So I am going to stick with the analysis above, and let that speak for me.

The night shift has not yet come to pass, but I need to vote now, as tomorrow is a two-job day. So I will not be back until late Monday night.

Happy hunting, folks. And don't forget to continue to work on the cathedral.

VOTE PACKERFANATIC
VOTE PACKERFANATIC

[Barkeep49]

Everyone gathers in the morning. This is met with some momentary happiness until the crew enters the Cathedral and sees that the artwork which had been done yesterday is sitting in tatters today.

Walls - Repaired
Roof - 6 shifts
Windows - 7 shifts
Artwork - 12 shifts
Carpentry - Repaired

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Heinz can always fall back on the "my schedule didn't allow me to get back and change" when it shows up wrong. So I've now convinced myself that he is a more likely demon than The Jackal.

UNVOTE THE JACKAL
VOTE JEHEINZ72

Oh hush hoops. That's a weak argument if there ever was one. It's not like my schedule is any different if I am/am not a bad guy in any WW game.

(catching up now)

[Danny]

Hmm, seems like an odd choice for the wolves to go after the cathedral.

[Danny]

I'm off to work, will be back around 6 eastern.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

1. Suspicious List (in order)

Packerfan
Jheinz
Jackal

I'd like to know why I'm on here. I mean I say I trust you guys, you guys say vote for hoops, I vote for hoops, hoops is a demon and I'm the bad guy here?

Don't get me wrong, I mean it's about as legit as death and taxes that you're an angel, but I don't see how I get flack for doing what you asked and then being gone over the weekend (as always, not that you'd know, this is I think the first time we've played in the same game)

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Danny

Hmm, seems like an odd choice for the wolves to go after the cathedral.

Originally Posted by the rules

The Demons cannot do the same night action more than two days in a row.

I think that explains it. I had to go look for it myself in the first post, but i thought i had remembered something about it.

[RealDeal]

I just scrubbed the thread and I'm going back and forth between packerfan and kwhit now as the folks most likely to be a demon.

[PackerFanatic]

I am not really sure if I have anything to say that is going to save me today. I haven't gotten very lucky on my voting at all.

[PackerFanatic]

I would like to work on the Cathedral today, since it does need a lot of work, but I will likely save my two votes to try to save my own ass.

[Tyrith]

I think CR's logic for PF is correct, and I suspect we should off him today. That said, I'm hoping we can do it with about half the actions available voting, as we do need to work as much as possible as quick as possible...12 units of damage is a lot more than I expected the wolves to be able to do in one night.

[jeheinz72]

As far as work, is it also wise to focus on the wall-dependent sections now while we can? Artwork we can do any day, right?

So maybe it's wise to get working on roof and windows a good amount today.

I plan on working once and voting once, as I've done I think every day.