Game of Thrones on HBO

[Coffee Warlord]

I'll also note - preview had two dragons flying. Looks like somehow they both made it.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by sabotai

The whole series has been building up to this epic conflict between the living and the dead. They're not going to wrap that up half-way through the final season and then spend the last 3 episodes of the series on their "B" Story.

So much for that...

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Yeah, it was a pretty bad episode. Deus ex Arya was pretty easy to call. Death count held nothing surprising either:

Edd
Jamie
Brienne
Beris
Melisandre
Lyanna ( - Awesome way to go though)
Jorah -
Theon

Did I miss anybody? Was hard to tell.

And fuck Jon. I counted at least twice where zombie dragonbreath should have scorched him, but he miraculously showed no ill effects because of that stupid fucking plot armor.

Jamie and Brienne definitely still alive.

I thought the whole episode was horribly done.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

only actually killing off one real main character (Jorah - Lyanna, Beric & Edd I like, but I'd forgot Edd even existed until last week and the other two are fringe). It's been building to the Theon redemption, but I still dislike him & Melisandre.

It was never going to live up to the theories or go as in depth as I'd like, but there was absolutely zero tying in to any of the history that made the books great. I've joked for years that Martin was waiting to see how viewers received the show finale before he wrote his last books and would change a major character death or who won the throne to fuck with people, but now I'm back to 100% hoping for him to write them and provide the backstory these writers didn't even attempt to include.

I would consider Theon just as much a main player as Jorah, if not more.

Martin is never finishing the books, never, and it is too bad.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

The only way I can think this plays out is the war starts and ends next week, and we get 3 episodes of North vs South war to wrap it. I don't have a clue how this plays out otherwise.

God I'm good.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

God I'm good.

I gave the writers way too much credit. I should know better by now.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I loved it, start to finish.

Me too.. fantastic!

Jamie and Brienne are alive.

I have a new LG 4K TV that I watched it with no lights on and although it did seem really dark, it didn't stick out to me as an issue.

[Coffee Warlord]

So....I'm not expert on military strategy, but um...maybe not send your entire elite cavalry wing to their deaths in the opening gambit?

[GoldenEagle]

So is Arya the prince who was promised?

[Atocep]

Wow

And not a good wow

Cersei is the final boss?

They're going to wrap the show up with the happy-ish ending that I've been telling my wife won't happen (because Martin) for the past 3 seasons.

The biggest and deadliest army ever on Westeros is defeated using terrible battle tactics because Arya.

I've set a low bar for the show as it's passed the books, but this went further under that bar than I thought was possible.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

So....I'm not expert on military strategy, but um...maybe not send your entire elite cavalry wing to their deaths in the opening gambit?

This is the only thing I actually agreed with. Dothraki are useless sitting in a defensive position.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Edward64

So tell me again why they fought outside the castle? Why they wasted the Dothraki?

I ORIGINALLY had an answer to the first question. That being - You have a LARGE number of skilled cavalry. They'd be wasted on the walls, give them a chance to at least stall and thin the herd for awhile. The infantry would just be supporting a retreat.

Then....they charge them and get them all killed. I got nothing.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

This is the only thing I actually agreed with. Dothraki are useless sitting in a defensive position.

That part I agree with, but maybe you don't send the entire army in completely blind.

Though, maybe they could see better than we could, who knows, it was so damn dark.

[JPhillips]

If a single flaming arrow is enough to take down a walker, all of the tactics should have revolved around fire.

Oh, and not getting anyone killed when every death is an addition to the army of the dead!

[Coffee Warlord]

It made no sense without back story, but the Night King smirking after being cooked (even though you KNEW he wasn't going to be hurt from it), was fun.

[JPhillips]

And as much shit as the humans are taking, how stupid was the NK to fight against the only defended position for hundreds of miles? Walk around it and let them starve or attack you on ground of your choosing.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

This is the only thing I actually agreed with. Dothraki are useless sitting in a defensive position.

Calvary are useless in a front line charge into superior numbers. The best use would have been as a flank after the initial charge.

And why the hell would you put your seige equipment in front of your front line soldiers?


Edit: apparently in the post show comments it's stated the Dothraki charged in on their own because they were so pumped about having fire swords

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Calvary are useless in a front line charge into superior numbers. The best use would have been as a flank after the initial charge.

And why the hell would you put your seige equipment in front of your front line soldiers?


Edit: apparently in the post show comments it's stated the Dothraki charged in on their own because they were so pumped about having fire swords

And Jorah just said, "Oh, fuck it, here we go?" And the rest of the command staff just decided to go with it, without anyone trying to call them back? Bullshit excuse.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

And Jorah just said, "Oh, fuck it, here we go?" And the rest of the command staff just decided to go with it, without anyone trying to call them back? Bullshit excuse.

I think the writers just wanted a cool scene with the lights slowly going out and wrote that around it. Still doesn't make much sense.

[sabotai]

The Good:

I actually liked the way some of the episode was shot. Some of the shots of the dragons in the air, especially above the clouds, looked great. I liked Arya's hide and seek scene. It gave a pause to the action to give us suspense. It changed things up without dropping the intended intensity of the episode. The shot of Jon and the Night King on the burning battlefield looked great.

The Bad:

Everything else. This is what happens when people who know dick about the history of battles and war write a battle scene. Every single decision was stupid. You don't charge your cavalry into an enemy you can't see. You don't start a battle by charging your whole cavalry into the enemy to begin with.

And so many terrible, cliche shots. All of the "I'm in trouble, someone saved me, I'm going to stop and look at the person who saved me for a full second, and they're going to stop and look at me, even though we're literally surrounded by undead creatures that want to kill us" shots were hilarious. Especially since most of the time, the person who just did the saving got their ass stabbed.

Lots of deaths to minor characters (and I'd say Jorah and Theon by this point of the series are minor characters), but no major characters died (Edit: Besides the Night King). Lyanna is the only one that had a good death scene, IMO.

And how the hell did Jorah go from fighting in the middle of Winterfell to suddenly being way outside the walls to save Dany? Deus ex Jorah was way worse than deus ex Arya at the end.

And at the end, I was hoping Bran was going to pull some three-eyed raven shit to save the day. Instead we get fan service to the most popular character. I wasn't entirely disappointed with Arya killing the Night King, though.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Edit: apparently in the post show comments it's stated the Dothraki charged in on their own because they were so pumped about having fire swords

*facepalm*

Good job Melisandre!

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I think the writers just wanted a cool scene with the lights slowly going out and wrote that around it. Still doesn't make much sense.

I will give them that. It was a gorgeous, mood setting shot. But if I wanted pretty pictures that made no logical sense, I'd watch a Michael Bay movie.

[sabotai]

And I guess Ghost is dead...

[Coffee Warlord]

Couple posts on reddit say he's not, either from post show interviews (I didn't watch) or the preview (I did watch, but I didn't see ghost).

edit: I take it back, I see Ghost in the preview.

[sabotai]

Oh for fuck's sake...yeah, I see him there too. A horde of dothraki screamers charge into a horde of undead, get destroyed in under a minute, but a dire wolf somehow survives. But then again, Jorah somehow survived too, so whatever.

[bhlloy]

So much nonsense and cliche in that episode - in addition to what's been mentioned, why does the Night King wait until personally challenged by Jon to decide to raise the dead? He could have raised the dead from the crypt to start and taken down the castle from the inside surely?

[MrBug708]

Enjoyed it immensely. Loved Arya's scenes. I'll let the grumblers grumble about unimportant issues but I cheered when the NK was killed. Can't wait for next week's episode and it will be bittersweet when the show is done.

[Neon_Chaos]

All doom and gloom in here.

I loved it. I suppose I'm in the minority.

Also, with the Cavalry Charge, does that mean that Ghost is dead?

[Vince, Pt. II]

While from a popcorn-on-the-couch perspective that was a fun episode, holy crap was that disappointing from a plot perspective. Plot armor is undefeated in the last few seasons.

Highlights:

• The Dothraki scene at the beginning (from Melisandre lighting the swords to their charge), was stupid, but it led to an amazing cinematic shot with all the lights going out.
• Beric's death was pretty great.
• As much as we all saw it coming and it was the Deus Ex Machina, Arya killing the Night King was badass.
• Sansa + Tyrion being cordial to one another was phenomenal, I thought.
• Lyanna Mormont and the Giant was another excellent moment.
• As much as I hated what ended up happening with them at the end, most of the Dragon scenes were pretty fantastic.

That being said...the bad was terrible.

• Deus Ex Jorah was obnoxious; as someone mentioned before, how the hell (and why) did he get out there?
• Not sure we needed the Hound to be a scaredy cat again.
• The dead rising in the crypts seemed like a token gesture that was simply thrown in.
• Jon vs. Undead Dragon went on for approximately 25 minutes too long.
• Speaking of Dragons, how in the world can you do what you did to the two living Dragons in that episode and let them both come out alive?
• Plot armor in droves. The fact that we only lost Beric, Theon, Jorah, and Lyanna Mormont out of that insanely large cast in that battle is ridiculous.

[stevew]

Insane amounts of plot armor.

[Chief Rum]

I don't disagree with pretty much anyone's complaints in the thread. Nonetheless, I still think that it was a fantastic episode. I suppose I'm more forgiving.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I don't disagree with pretty much anyone's complaints in the thread. Nonetheless, I still think that it was a fantastic episode. I suppose I'm more forgiving.

I was having a lot of problems with it throughout, then came around with the ending, but then it only took about 10 minutes of post-show reflection to get annoyed by everything all over again. And I tend to be really forgiving too.

Brienne and Jamie were just wasted, backed up against walls killing an onslaught of dead save for 10 seconds of a life saving scene between them. Sam survives all of that while virtually the entire Dothraki army gets wiped out immediately.

There was just so much that was really illogical, both in terms of how they played out the battle and the storyline itself, and at the end of the day I'm disappointed that's all we got from the Night King even if we got a great death.

[bob]

My general thoughts (from someone that has not read the books):

- Way too dark to tell what was going on for much of the episode.

- It seemed pretty clear that Arya was going to be the one given the "and blue eyes" and "Not today" comments with Red Woman. So I had no problem with her doing it, but more how. She just appeared out of nowhere.

- Lots of bad movie cliches. So the Night King needs to kill Bran (for some reason I still can't exactly figure out. He can see the past and glimpses of the future - why does that make him so important to the Night King?) to win the whole war - why does he do the super villain move of taking forever to kill him? Might as well have broken into a speech or built a slow moving trap with laser sharks.

- Personally I just didn't like how easily the Night King was dealt with in a single episode. Sure, lots of red shirts died but only one or two major characters, no dragons, and little sacrifice otherwise. I kept hearing how great the last two episodes were because it was a final goodbye to all these characters that were about to die. Well, now they seem more like the filler I thought they were.

Just my thoughts.

One more thing - I didn't like the Lyanna Mormont epic death. Didn't feel earned. Even if she is the 1 in a billion 11 year olds that wouldn't have cowered in fear during the attack, it felt like a lot of fan service to girl power. A death like that should have been given to a more important character.

Oh, I guess two more things - I did like Theon finally running to danger vs away from it, as futile a gesture as it was.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

And Jorah just said, "Oh, fuck it, here we go?" And the rest of the command staff just decided to go with it, without anyone trying to call them back? Bullshit excuse.

To be fair it didn't appear like there was any senior command staff. Some units had leaders, but overall everyone appeared to be on their on.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Enjoyed it immensely. Loved Arya's scenes. I'll let the grumblers grumble about unimportant issues but I cheered when the NK was killed. Can't wait for next week's episode and it will be bittersweet when the show is done.

Agreed. The Arya scenes were fantastic. In general, I enjoyed the episode, save for the universal complaints about how dark it was. We finally turned off all the lights and could somewhat see what was going on.

[RainMaker]

For a TV episode, the special effects and overall entertainment levels were high. That was some pretty epic shit.

With that said, the show is more like the Avengers than the original Game of Thrones at this point. Tons of plot armor and mostly based around fan service. It lost that aura it had where you really felt the stakes were high for everyone.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Agreed. The Arya scenes were fantastic. In general, I enjoyed the episode, save for the universal complaints about how dark it was. We finally turned off all the lights and could somewhat see what was going on.

She is awesome.

One thing I liked was the night king realized Jon was behind him from about 150 feet away, but never knew Arya was coming until a second before. Illustrates how much of an assassin she is.

All the keyboard warriors on Twitter saying people need to get better TVs are cracking me up. If 85% of people have a problem with it then its not the TVs.

[MrBug708]

In hindsight, it was dark, but I didn't realize it was a thing (being dark) until I read this thread

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

For a TV episode, the special effects and overall entertainment levels were high. That was some pretty epic shit.

With that said, the show is more like the Avengers than the original Game of Thrones at this point. Tons of plot armor and mostly based around fan service. It lost that aura it had where you really felt the stakes were high for everyone.

Yeah, said the same thing to my wife. Felt like a marvel movie, especially when we had Jon Snow, Daenerys, Tyrion+Sansa, and Bran all about to kick the bucket at once, mentally I'm just thinking "ok, here comes Arya any second now to kill the Night King and save the day". Ruined the suspense, and I don't think the writers have the balls to kill a major character unexpectedly at this point.

Still, I enjoyed the episode for what it was. We've gone from gritty dark fantasy to swords and sorcery. If this was season 1 I'd probably get bored and move on, but I'm invested.

[RainMaker]

What killed it for me is watching the dead absolutely shred the Dothraki and Unsullied. Then like 6 of the main characters fight off a thousand or so by themselves inside Winterfell. Did the dead just get tired in the end?

[Groundhog]

Catching up on social media now that I've finally finished the episode and I feel like GoT has maybe reached the point that sport video games did years ago, where the better and more life-like they look, the higher people's expectations of realism are. Despite the dragons and undead and such.

[spleen1015]

It was hard to see what was going on, but I think it was part of the fear effect they were going for. It added some excitement to what was happening for me.

[Groundhog]

One other thing I'll say is that as dumb as the Dothraki charge may have been tactically, it was worth it for the cinematography. Best scene of the episode. They've had all the personality of one of Cersei's scorpions for years anyway, epic way for them to go out.

[MizzouRah]

Should be a simple final battle if the dragons survived.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Plot armor in droves. The fact that we only lost Beric, Theon, Jorah, and Lyanna Mormont out of that insanely large cast in that battle is ridiculous.

More major characters died in a wedding than in an all night battle against the dead.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

With that said, the show is more like the Avengers than the original Game of Thrones at this point. Tons of plot armor and mostly based around fan service. It lost that aura it had where you really felt the stakes were high for everyone.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What killed it for me is watching the dead absolutely shred the Dothraki and Unsullied. Then like 6 of the main characters fight off a thousand or so by themselves inside Winterfell. Did the dead just get tired in the end?

Indeed. I will say for that one of the reasons I think many of us are disappointed is because this was once one of the more intelligentally plotted shows out there. The Game of Thrones required the moving pieces to make smart decisions. Or they'd die. And once a year there would be spectacle (Blackwater, Hardholme, etc). It seems in the last few seasons spectacle has been focused on while intelligent plotting has been dispensed with completely. This is not the same show it once was. It is still entertaining (mostly), but it's not on the level of the Sopranos anymore, which I used to think it was from seasons 1-3.

[AnalBumCover]

I loved the episode. But there's something that's leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I fear that from this point on, all the major and secondary character deaths will be a "Heroic Death".

All the major deaths in this episode were Heroic Deaths.

Lady Mormont killed a Giant while being crushed by his hand.
Jorah died protecting Dany.
Theon charged NK.
Beric died holding back the wights.
Edd died saving Sam.

Gone are the Martin days where they kill off a major character for doing something stupid, or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Something even plot armor cannot overcome. That's what made Ned's death and the Red Wedding so great. I'd even put Oberyn's death in this group.

But now, it's all fan service. D&D are looking for the most satisfying outcome for the end of each of these characters. And they'll dig up every cliche and trope available to them to get that outcome.

[hollmt]

I enjoyed the episode. My friends who avoid forums enjoyed the episode.

I had my theories about what I thought would happen and they all didn't come true and I STILL ENJOYED the episode.

I think a lot of people get their fan theories/desires of what should happen or what they want to happen and it doesn't go that way and then they are disappointed. I guess they have that right.

There are still 3 episodes to go where major stuff will happen. I also think someone said the major point A is the battle of living vs evil and point B is the rest of the stuff. I disagree. The rest of the stuff is the 'Game of Thrones' or basically just the Game and is point A. The living vs. evil was point B and is now wrapped up.

Key things I thoroughly enjoyed:
The first 5-10 minutes of tension building.
The fires burning out on the Dothraki charge. While I agree the charge was silly, the slow lights burning out was awesome.
The different scenes taking us away from constant fighting, which can get tiring i.e. Arya's hide and seek going back to the first season. Sansa and Tyrion interactions. Jon chasing NK.
The final 5-10 minute musical score. Loved it.

[Atocep]

We

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Indeed. I will say for that one of the reasons I think many of us are disappointed is because this was once one of the more intelligentally plotted shows out there. The Game of Thrones required the moving pieces to make smart decisions. Or they'd die. And once a year there would be spectacle (Blackwater, Hardholme, etc). It seems in the last few seasons spectacle has been focused on while intelligent plotting has been dispensed with completely. This is not the same show it once was. It is still entertaining (mostly), but it's not on the level of the Sopranos anymore, which I used to think it was from seasons 1-3.

It's frustrating. Tyrion has become a bad decision making B character and the 2 characters that have combined to make more poor decisions than everyone else combined are off to face Cersei in the final battle. Varys has become a C-list character. Arya is the only one that's consistently had a brain and is still in the spotlight.

What the show runners are doing is entertaining but not what ASoIaF has ever been about. Fantasy tropes are what Martin has been steadfastly against and one of the reasons he started writing the books. The show has lost its edge. It's not willing to kill off major characters without a heroic death and it's not willing to punish bad decision making. Which is a shame because we have 3 episodes left and they seem to have more characters alive than they know what to do with.

What frustrates me the most now, looking back at the last episode, is the fact that outside of the Jon and Danny tag team and Arya the episode mostly focused on making sure the B-list characters that were going to die got their screen time. Bran sat around doing all of dick until he got bored and decided to warg. Jamie and Breinne did nothing but save one another and fight in a corner for the last 30 minutes. Sansa was hiding in the crypt with tyrion. Tormund is a b-list character that the show has turned a-list and we saw little of him. Spending the last several seasons convincing us the 3 eyed raven is important only to watch Bran used as a plot vehicle to get Theon his redemption and Arya her moment sums up the show at this point.

As I said, what they're doing makes for great television, but it's no longer the show you can joke about characters you're attached to dying at any time. You're not going to see YouTube reactions to Ned Stark's death, the red wedding, Joffry dying, or Tywin dying on the shitter. It's reactions to Lyanna Mormont dying heroically while killing a giant.

[PilotMan]

I did enjoy the episode. It was dramatic and entertaining.

Having said that, each and every one of you are correct about the writing, and overall storytelling of the show. I was going over in my head all the characters who could die, listing the ones who couldn't because of the plot and I can't believe that they wrapped up this entire storyline in this episode. Feels like the entire plotline for the couple years is now washed clean and then what?

For the book lovers, the story is ho-hum. It's an entertaining tv show, it's clearly way out of the water in terms of heavy writing, or even having anything to go off of. It's too big to wrap up, they have to cut too many corners to fit everything in, and they have to please too many people now that it's a grade A hit.