FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[Thomkal]

Chauvin gets 22 1/2 years in jail

[tarcone]

Isnt prison easier on police officers because they cant be in general pop?

[JPhillips]

I think the sentence is just, but I'm not going to join in the dragging of his mother for trying to limit his jail time.

[Vegas Vic]

Thankfully officer Jason Raynor was extremely delicate in attempting to arrest Othal Wallace, lest we end up with another tragedy.

Body camera video shows officer being shot in Daytona Beach

[cuervo72]

So what are we to take this to mean, then? Chauvin was justified? That's what you seem to be getting at, there is no alternatives for policing other than asphyxiating all suspects.

[BYU 14]

This is exactly what we get in a society where you are basically forced to choose between supporting the police and standing for justice.

It's not mutually exclusive and if you don't have the common sense to parse out bad police behavior from piece of shit criminals that deserve every bit of the consequences of their actions then you're a fucking moron.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

It's not mutually exclusive and if you don't have the common sense to parse out bad police behavior from piece of shit criminals that deserve every bit of the consequences of their actions then you're a fucking moron.

Not exactly. And to Cuervo's point, Chauvin certainly got what he deserved.

No, what I'm talking about are the 98% of good cops who have been backed into a corner and are forced to treat everyone with kit gloves like this poor guy. As to the society you're referring to, a significant portion is now protesting every time a gang-banger with a rap sheet longer than a football field dies in a shootout with the police.

[Kodos]

And Republicans look the other way when police are killed by white supremacists who storm our nation’s capitol in an attempt to end democracy.

[cuervo72]

I wonder what, if any, coverage/outrage there will be from the recent shooting in Arvada, CO. Because there's a good deal to unpack.

Basically:

1. Aggrieved (59yo) white guy says he wants to "kill pigs", cops check it out. Guy runs after cop, kills him. Goes back to car for another gun.
2. Good guy (also white) with gun kills bad guy with gun.
3. Good guy with gun picks up bad guy's gun (AR-15). Cops kill good guy.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I wonder what, if any, coverage/outrage there will be from the recent shooting in Arvada, CO. Because there's a good deal to unpack.

Basically:

1. Aggrieved (59yo) white guy says he wants to "kill pigs", cops check it out. Guy runs after cop, kills him. Goes back to car for another gun.
2. Good guy (also white) with gun kills bad guy with gun.
3. Good guy with gun picks up bad guys gun (AR-15). Cops kill good guy.

I have heard several law enforcement officers, including family members, say the whole "good guy with a gun" concept would do way more harm than good. IF law enforcement shows up at an active shooter scene they need to know who the actual threat is, and if every yokel wanna be cowboy has their gun drawn that makes it impossible.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I have heard several law enforcement officers, including family members, say the whole "good guy with a gun" concept would do way more harm than good. IF law enforcement shows up at an active shooter scene they need to know who the actual threat is, and if every yokel wanna be cowboy has their gun drawn that makes it impossible.

Sadly that's true

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Not exactly. And to Cuervo's point, Chauvin certainly got what he deserved.

No, what I'm talking about are the 98% of good cops who have been backed into a corner and are forced to treat everyone with kit gloves like this poor guy. As to the society you're referring to, a significant portion is now protesting every time a gang-banger with a rap sheet longer than a football field dies in a shootout with the police.

And this element is exactly who I was referring to, they need to shut up with their infinite wokeness, advocating for people who deserve the end they get.

Trust me, I totally support Police, they have the toughest job in the country, and need more resources to do it correctly, but lets be honest. Police departments have brought a lot of this on themselves by ignoring/protecting the bad apples for so long. These conversations would not be infused with as much anger as they are now if this had been addressed decades ago.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Police departments have brought a lot of this on themselves by ignoring/protecting the bad apples for so long. These conversations would not be infused with as much anger as they are now if this had been addressed decades ago.

There's no question about that, and I agree.

Unfortunately, there's another elephant in the room that most people are too uncomfortable to speak about or even acknowledge:

There is a substantial portion of the population that is either indifferent or complicit with the glamorization of criminal behavior, and until that problem becomes a bigger priority I don't see a lot of progress being made on this front. There's an even larger segment of said population that thinks it's "not cool" to get an education or obey the law.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

There's no question about that, and I agree.

Unfortunately, there's another elephant in the room that most people are too uncomfortable to speak about or even acknowledge:

There is a substantial portion of the population that is either indifferent or complicit with the glamorization of criminal behavior, and until that problem becomes a bigger priority I don't see a lot of progress being made on this front. There's an even larger segment of said population that thinks it's "not cool" to get an education or obey the law.

None of this is new. The country was founded on the concept of breaking from tradition. The glamorization of criminal behavior is nothing new, and the group that thinks education and obeying the law are 'not cool' just ransacked the Capitol.

The right loves to point out how the culture wars are new and aggressive and are ruining things, but the culture wars have been going on for a hundred and fifty years and the groups that came out on the losing side time after time just hold resentment against the progress that they can't stop.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

The glamorization of criminal behavior is nothing new, and the group that thinks education and obeying the law are 'not cool' just ransacked the Capitol.

I'll keep my eyes open to see how many platinum albums and singles are written about the Capitol insurrection, which by the way, was rightfully condemned by the majority of Americans, regardless of ideology.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

None of this is new. The country was founded on the concept of breaking from tradition. The glamorization of criminal behavior is nothing new, and the group that thinks education and obeying the law are 'not cool' just ransacked the Capitol.

Yeah, to whit:

I'm an American Bad Ass
Watch me kick, you can roll with Rock
Or you can suck my dick
I'm a porno flick, I'm like Amazing Grace
I'm gunna fuck some hoes after I rock this place
Superfly living doublewide
Side car on my Glide so Joe see can ride
Full sack to share, bringin' flash and flair
Got the long hair swinging, middle finger in the air
Snake skin suits, 65 Chevelle
See me ride in sin hear the rebel yell
I won't live to tell, so if you do
Give the next generation a big 'fuck you'
Who knew I'd blow up like Oklahoma
Said fuck high school, pissed on my diploma
Smell the aroma, check my hits
I know it stinks in here, cause I'm the Shit

[PilotMan]

{To VV}

Tiptoeing around some insinuations aren't you?

Please fill me in.

[NobodyHere]

Some people consider "The Godfather" the greatest movie of all time.

Just sayin

[miked]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

I'll keep my eyes open to see how many platinum albums and singles are written about the Capitol insurrection, which by the way, was rightfully condemned by the majority of Americans, regardless of ideology.

Man, you are nuts. Did you not see the legislature just vote against investigating this? Or people who say these were tourists, or they were just patriots, or in other states helping them in? A recent poll shows that 85% of republicans do not believe their party did enough to stop the election certification and many believe their state legislatures should have overturned things. The only thing you seem to see is color (your not-so-veiled racist remarks regarding the gangbangers). There are probably an equal number of people who would fight the cops if the situation calls for it, and the only difference is that for most of the white folks, the cops are more than happy to either de-escalate or walk away.

[JPhillips]

These guys should have more respect for law enforcement.

[cuervo72]

*insert pic of Johnny Cash flipping the bird here*

[cuervo72]

Dola - but yeah, between Jennings and Cash, I mean, look up the definition of outlaw country.

[GrantDawg]

I was in Duke country this weekend, and you can still get illegal moon-shine if you know the right people. Why, when you can buy corn=whiskey cheap at any liquor store without the risk of going blind? IDK. It is literally the same area that Marjorie Taylor Greene is elected from, so I imagine it is because of their total lack of respect for laws that affect them.

I mean, they love cops that kill "gang-banger." They have never met a law that legislates what a woman can do with her body they don't love. Laws are great, as long it affects the bad people (which they say means "Unamericans" but actually mean anyone that doesn't look, act, talk, or think exactly like themselves).

[Vegas Vic]

‘We Get Spit On. We Get Things Thrown At Us’: A Look At CPD’s Rising Retirement Numbers

Retirement numbers are broken up in two ways: Those who don’t get their pension because they’re not eligible and those who do get a pension.

Data obtained through public records shows in 2017, 37 officers left the department before being eligible for a pension. So far this year that number is nearly double with 68 officers.

[BYU 14]

There are two thoughts I have on this.

1-This is not the way to go about getting your point across in terms of Police reform, and there is no fucking excuse for it, but of course I know there are probably 1 or 2 people that will try and justify it. But spitting on an officer is basically assault.

2-There is also a point to be made that if Chicago had addressed the issue with corruption long ago when they should have, there would not be so much hostility towards the police leadership needs to take a good hard look at themselves.

And in addition, gangs in Chicago have such a strong footprint that I don't know at this point ho you gain control back in some areas of the city. It is like fighting a Hydra. I can't speak for activists there, but here in Phoenix I do a lot of work with inner city and groups that support them, and sadly there are more and more you just can't reach and they are getting younger too. A lot of this emanates from the home environment and there needs to be a lot of reflection there as well.

[GrantDawg]

No one should assault anyone. There is no excuse for spitting on police, just as there is no excuse for police brutality.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

2-There is also a point to be made that if Chicago had addressed the issue with corruption long ago when they should have, there would not be so much hostility towards the police leadership needs to take a good hard look at themselves.

At this time, there is no longer a need for proactive measures from the "defund the police" movement. Chicago, along with many police departments across the country, is doing a superb job in defunding itself.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

At this time, there is no longer a need for proactive measures from the "defund the police" movement. Chicago, along with many police departments across the country, is doing a superb job in defunding itself.

Spoken like someone who doesn't really understand what defund the police means.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

‘We Get Spit On. We Get Things Thrown At Us’: A Look At CPD’s Rising Retirement Numbers

There are over 13000 police officers in Chicago. How many of those retirees were caught at the Capitol?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Spoken like someone who doesn't really understand what defund the police means.

Chicago has also tripled per capita police spending over the past few decades. It is an enormous part of the budget with some pretty shitty results.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

There's no question about that, and I agree.

Unfortunately, there's another elephant in the room that most people are too uncomfortable to speak about or even acknowledge:

There is a substantial portion of the population that is either indifferent or complicit with the glamorization of criminal behavior, and until that problem becomes a bigger priority I don't see a lot of progress being made on this front. There's an even larger segment of said population that thinks it's "not cool" to get an education or obey the law.

There's like a hundred shows on TV showing cops in a positive light for routinely breaking the law. Its an entire genre of film where the cop who doesn't play by the rules gets justice. I'm a Law and Order junkie and I would say most of the episodes show the protagonist cop doing something illegal to solve the case.

Have you turned on a TV in 40 years?

[GrantDawg]

Defund the police is still a dumb term that is never going to get wide spread support. The name should represent what it is doing, which is giving police support by taking work load they are undertrained to handle off their plate.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[Vegas Vic]

Chicago cops give cold shoulder to Mayor Lightfoot at hospital after two officers shot

Mayor Lori Lightfoot was given the cold shoulder by CPD rank and file about midnight Saturday at the University of Chicago Medical Center when she approached them on the 7th floor as they grappled with the shootings of two fellow officers.

Chicago Police Officer Ella French was shot and killed during a traffic stop Saturday night in West Englewood, while her partner continues to fight for his life at the hospital. Three people are in custody.

Just moments before about 30 officers turned their backs on the mayor, Lightfoot tried to talk to the male officer’s father, who himself is a retired Chicago police officer. He clearly wanted nothing to do with Lightfoot, according to two sources who were there. The father excoriated the mayor and blamed her for what had happened. One source said Lightfoot handled herself well as the father yelled at her. She listened and treated him with respect.

It was then suggested that Lightfoot say a few words to nearby grieving officers, but as she approached, they all walked away from her and to the other side of a bank of chairs — and turned their backs, the sources said.

“They did the about-face — it looked like it had been choreographed,” said one of the sources present, calling it “astounding.”

Lightfoot appeared shaken, according to one source. Then she went downstairs to speak to reporters at a news conference about the shooting.

“The police officers’ decision to turn their backs on the mayor while waiting with the family on the 7th floor was significant,” FOP President John Catanzara told me in an interview. “Turning their backs on the mayor was an excellent example of how the hundreds of police officers felt waiting outside the hospital,” Catanzara said. Officers no longer support Lightfoot’s leadership, Catanzara said. “They have had enough and are no longer going to remain silent anymore.”

Cops ‘at the breaking point’ turned their backs on Lightfoot

The officers were there to pray for French, 29, who was shot and killed during a traffic stop in West Englewood, and for her critically-wounded partner, still fighting for his life.

“They’re at a breaking point. Clearly, our police officers have been under siege, under-appreciated and thrown under the bus for the last year and a half. They feel — and rightfully so — that leadership across this country, across this city do not have their back,” O’Shea told the Sun-Times.

“Anybody who was working Saturday night as those calls came over the radio and they learned of what had happened to their colleagues — that’s a tipping point. And it’s a tipping point that many of us have been waiting to happen as the unbelievable violence we see in communities all across this city, where criminals have absolutely no regard for human life, no fear of the consequences of their actions. To shoot at point-blank range two Chicago police officers. We are a city in crisis.”

[JPhillips]

Cops that can't accept civilian leadership are a big part of the problem.

[cuervo72]

Yeah, trying to imagine the military trying that with the President.

[sterlingice]

They definitely got media attention for this. I mean, it was a clearly choreographed political stunt using a critically wounded officer. If ever there was a time to make a point, this could be it.

But what was the point? Like there's no demands, nothing they want (no, "we're not appreciated" is not a demand). It just feels like lashing out:

“They’re at a breaking point. Clearly, our police officers have been under siege, under-appreciated and thrown under the bus for the last year and a half. They feel — and rightfully so — that leadership across this country, across this city do not have their back,” O’Shea told the Sun-Times.

SI

[PilotMan]

I remember that time that Ronald Reagan didn't have air traffic controllers backs either. They all lost their jobs.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Chicago cops give cold shoulder to Mayor Lightfoot at hospital after two officers shot


Cops ‘at the breaking point’ turned their backs on Lightfoot

Just a reminder that the FOP President quoted held fundraisers with the Proud Boys, boogaloo guys, and other white nationalists years ago. He also defended the actions of the terrorists on January 6th. And has a history of threatening citizens on social media. He is a fairly unapologetic white supremacist.

I don't know exactly what their beef is with Lightfoot. She hasn't been particularly tough on the police. She did fire the former police superintendent after he was caught drunk driving with a woman who worked under him (who he was having an affair with) and had other cops cover it up. He didn't even get in trouble for that.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

They definitely got media attention for this. I mean, it was a clearly choreographed political stunt using a critically wounded officer. If ever there was a time to make a point, this could be it.

But what was the point? Like there's no demands, nothing they want (no, "we're not appreciated" is not a demand). It just feels like lashing out:

Not big fans of a black woman running the city.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I remember that time that Ronald Reagan didn't have air traffic controllers backs either. They all lost their jobs.

He fired all 11,000 of them, and had no problem getting replacements. Last time I checked, people weren't exactly beating down the door to fill all of the vacant police positions across the country. What person in their right mind would want to be a police officer in a large metropolitan area these days?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

He fired all 11,000 of them, and had no problem getting replacements. Last time I checked, people weren't exactly beating down the door to fill all of the vacant police positions across the country. What person in their right mind would want to be a police officer in a large metropolitan area these days?

Why would you not want the job? Making $75k a year in just over a year with an incredible pension. Next to no oversight and impossible to be fired.

I know you have to toss out the propaganda, but there is no issue finding people who want to be cops in Chicago. Whether they are the desired race of the leadership is another story.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

He fired all 11,000 of them, and had no problem getting replacements. Last time I checked, people weren't exactly beating down the door to fill all of the vacant police positions across the country. What person in their right mind would want to be a police officer in a large metropolitan area these days?

Look, I'm sure there are officers within the ranks that aren't assholes too. Surely they all can't be assholes, but the ones that 'ride or die' with the amount of corruption and double dealing bullshit that some in the force are a part of isn't going to endear them many fans. Anytime the union has the chance to take advantage of a publicity stunt for attention they will use it, it doesn't make it right. Why are there still jobs that get pensions anyway? There are next to no private sector jobs with pensions, it's far beyond time for that to go away from the public sector, teachers, military, police, whomever....move on and join the real world. This would be another good chance to reform the overall system into something that resembles a functioning system. The police don't set the agenda, they either need to figure their shit out or disappear from the line of duty.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Rainmaker

Why would you not want the job? Making $75k a year in just over a year with an incredible pension. Next to no oversight and impossible to be fired.

I know you have to toss out the propaganda, but there is no issue finding people who want to be cops in Chicago. Whether they are the desired race of the leadership is another story.

Every study I can find says this isn't the case. I read repeatedly that hirings are down slightly, resignations are up significantly, and vacancies/retirements are up sharply. Including in Chicago.

Do you have any information that contradicts this?

[thesloppy]

We are seeing this issue, among many others, with police in Portland.



The existing cops are retiring. Nobody wants to be a cop. Many/most of the city's cops did not live within the city. Cop unions are forever at odds with city government. Crime has increased, but cop response also become selective & slow out of apparent spite/resentment. Cops are expected to handle all of the city's crime, homelessness AND drug addiction issues, but also get insulted/abused by the public regularly.


I like to think those kind of growing pains are unavoidable if any real kind of police reform is ever going to happen, but it's probably just as likely that all of that just gets baked into the already broken system and becomes some new, even more dysfunctional flavor of normal.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Every study I can find says this isn't the case. I read repeatedly that hirings are down slightly, resignations are up significantly, and vacancies/retirements are up sharply. Including in Chicago.

Do you have any information that contradicts this?

Hirings are down because there is no money to hire. The last two Mayors have placed hiring freezes and been more willing to pay heavy overtime than add more people to the broken pension system. Retirements are up because there was a lot of ramping up of police in the 90's and those people are coming upon their 20+ years.

There are people who are applying, but the police department has shown a reluctance to hire black or women applicants (you can Google the Federal consent decree here). So if they are struggling, it's because they've narrowed their pool to a certain demographic.

As for "respect", remember that the police here have a long history of civil rights abuses. They recently covered up a murder by an officer. Have had a number of other high-profile cases involving cops doing illegal things (even the Superintendent!). And pay out hundreds of millions in taxpayer funds for their decades of fuck-ups.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There are people who are applying, but the police department has shown a reluctance to hire black or women applicants (you can Google the Federal consent decree here). So if they are struggling, it's because they've narrowed their pool to a certain demographic.

There's obviously something I'm missing somewhere. I don't see anything in the consent decree, the supporting DOJ investigation, etc. that reflects this. There's a lot of material on the other items; use of force, community interaction, etc.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Retirements are up because there was a lot of ramping up of police in the 90's and those people are coming upon their 20+ years.

This only explains part of the rise, it's not nearly enough to explain all of it. I also looked up the best info I could find on demographics of the city and breakdown of the police force; they aren't quite identical but they are very close in terms of the ethnic proportions of each. So basically I see a lot of information backing up the expected conclusions of civil rights, excessive force etc. issues but nothing on the hiring practices etc.

[Glengoyne]

I was going to suggest that officers might be upset about the termination of the officers involved in the Rayshard Brooks shooting. Then I realized that was a different female mayor. I'll agree that the quote from the FOP does come off as whiny. If you're going to make an impactful statement like turning your back on a political leader, you should actually have something to say.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Not big fans of a black woman running the city.

Also, they're probably not big fans of Lightfoot's response to Ella French's murder, when she tweeted that "guns and the violence they bring" were responsible for Officer French's death, in an obviously callous attempt to deflect blame from the perpetrator to push her anti-firearm political agenda.

One final thought: Neither of the officers had their weapons drawn on the perpetrator. This was the very same kind of traffic stop that some people think police should never draw their weapons on. The same kind of traffic stops that are portrayed as acts of racism. The same kind of traffic stops that are portrayed as not dangerous and risk-free.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

The same kind of traffic stops that are portrayed as not dangerous and risk-free.

Quote citation please. I have never seen anyone say that traffic stops are not dangerous. Just that having guns drawn on a traffic stop just because the occupants are young black people is racist.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

There's obviously something I'm missing somewhere. I don't see anything in the consent decree, the supporting DOJ investigation, etc. that reflects this. There's a lot of material on the other items; use of force, community interaction, etc.

This only explains part of the rise, it's not nearly enough to explain all of it. I also looked up the best info I could find on demographics of the city and breakdown of the police force; they aren't quite identical but they are very close in terms of the ethnic proportions of each. So basically I see a lot of information backing up the expected conclusions of civil rights, excessive force etc. issues but nothing on the hiring practices etc.[/quote]

Sorry, it's an Inspector General report.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...iring-n1273431