That Ref Call (end of Super Bowl Spoilers)

[SirFozzie]

Alright. Let's break it out here. Was that a penalty?

I think it's on the low end as in "If you're calling that constantly, fine, but to pull it out only at a pivotal moment is going to cause strife"

[Kodos]

I was rooting for the Chiefs, but that was a rough call. And it took all of the excitement out of the end.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just watched a replay with zero context beyond knowing in advance what occurred/what it meant.

Garbage call.

That's trash in the 1st quarter, it's trash in the 4th quarter.

[larrymcg421]

I don't think it should be different based on quarter. Anyone not willing to make the same call in the 4th quarter that they would in 1st quarter should not be a ref.

[NobodyHere]

Maybe it was just a bad angle but I didn't see anything that warranted a penalty.

[sterlingice]

No one has "it was holding all the way"

SI

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Just watched a replay with zero context beyond knowing in advance what occurred/what it meant.

Garbage call.

That's trash in the 1st quarter, it's trash in the 4th quarter.

Yup.

This isn't a "let 'em play" thing because it was the end of the game.

It was just not defensive holding.

[albionmoonlight]

dola, and I say that without much rooting interest for either team.

Though I did have a rooting interest in wanting to see a team down by 3 with one timeout try and score as opposed to watching 2 kneeldowns and a short field goal.

[BYU 14]

Forget the fact that it was the superbowl and the stage of the game, that kind of stuff goes on in every single NFL game, without a call and was happening all night here too.

Terrible call and the moment just magnified it that much more.

[Solecismic]

They kept stopping the tape just as JSS was making his break. What I'm looking for, and didn't see, is whether there's that little puff of jersey showing that Bradberry held, even for an instant, right there. Until then, normal contact. Without a jersey-grab, and I didn't see it at all, that's not a penalty.

However, until then, I was concerned the ref-breaks were a bit Philly-sided. Not that make-up calls are a good idea.

[SirFozzie]

Apparently the Philly Defender admitted in the post game that (paraphrasing) "Yeah, I grabbed him a little bit. I was hoping the ref would let it slide."


edit:

https://twitter.com/MySportsUpdate/s...81004724076547

[sterlingice]

#Eagles CB James Bradberry said in the locker room that he held JuJu Smith-Schuster:

“It was a holding. I tugged his jersey. I was hoping they would let it slide."

— Ari Meirov (@MySportsUpdate) February 13, 2023

SI

[Brian Swartz]

The fact that Bradberry said that and the majority of the poll said that the 'refs decided the game' is just such a perfect commentary.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

The fact that Bradberry said that and the majority of the poll said that the 'refs decided the game' is just such a perfect commentary.

A lot of them voted pre-Bradberry saying that, and I'm not sure I set it up so you can change votes.

[stevew]

Gronk actually made that field goal. Not sure what the ref saw

[MIJB#19]

The referees also are in that game for 4 hours and like the players on the field also won't get through it mistakefree. If there's one specific time frame they have to be at their highest awareness of what's going on and make sure they are spot on in their calls, it's during the final 2 minutes of a close game, in particular when it's the national championship game. Then and there is the exact moment in time every penalty must be called.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by stevew

Gronk actually made that field goal. Not sure what the ref saw

You know, I thought it looked good, but I just assumed I was wrong.

[Ksyrup]

There was a slight grab, nothing egregious, and certainly there had to be 2 dozen of those not called during the game up to that point.

[QuikSand]

The camera angle shown on the broadcast had me really peeved. Olson's commentary likely helped that, but he saw the same thing. There's another angle with a still that has been going around, showing the jersey clearly being tugged.

Bradberry's comment plus that still shot have me eating my words. It was a penalty, and while it's questionable whether that gets called every quarter of every game, it's far less outcry from me. I've turned my mic off on it now.

[PilotMan]

Guys get their jersey's pulled all game long. A quick tug there is missed or not called far more than it's actually called. To call that, in that moment, was not right. You can jam a guy at the line, this was less of an impediment than that. He wouldn't have tried to do it, if it wasn't part of his regular (and nearly all CB's) process.

It had zero impact on the play itself. Shouldn't have been a thing.

[QuikSand]

...so the continuation of the argument that it had no effect on the play must also be that Mahomes just flubbed the crucial to-win-the-game pass and threw it 40 feet too far. Right?

I mean the pass went to a spot, and the receiver's pattern was designed to go to that spot, but the timing was wayyyyy off, for some reason that is either connected to, or unconnected to, the guy getting visibly held by the corner who said point blank that he got beat and held the receiver.

[Sweed]

Sounds to me like the DB did a "risk reward" calculation in his head and hoped for a result in his favor. He didn't get it.

If we want the refs to be "on top of their game" at the end shouldn't we expect it of the players too? Maybe the DB should have been thinking "I have to play this clean and not give a reason to throw a flag"?

I don't want the ref to swallow the whistle if they see a penalty. I don't want them thinking in those milliseconds.

If the ref saw the jersey stretch and doesn't call it we're having the same conversation about how KC got screwed and the refs decided the game.

Maybe the most impressive thing about the whole situation is the DB stepping up and admitting he held.

[bhlloy]

The thing is, not to beat the dead horse conversation that we have been having for 15 years or more, but there is offensive holding on almost every play. There is contact past 5 yards on almost every play. Offensive linemen go further downfield than they are supposed to and receivers interfere on almost every screen pass. We accept that to get an outcome that doesn’t fundamentally break the game, we accept it unless it’s absolutely egregious, has a huge impact on a play or if in the flow of the game the refs feel the need to call it.

Was that technically a penalty - sure. Was it in the flow of how the game had been called to that point or so egregious that it’s obvious to everybody the second the play ends? I’d argue clearly not on both cases. I don’t think most people are saying that they want to see refs call everything and then swallow the whistle in the last 2 minutes just because, but with the way that game was called to then go and call that and decide the game was horrible IMO. It’s big that Bradberry has come out and said it was technically a penalty but equally, that doesn’t change how I feel about it at all.

[albionmoonlight]

I, too, have come down a bit. The CB admission plus the other angle have now put me in the camp of it could have gone either way.

[Dutch]

I’ll join the camp that the DB likely felt it wasn’t going to be called because it hadn’t up to that point. The lack of consistency can set teams up for failure at any time. The timing of when they decided to call what they had already seen and what the players likely felt was okay, is dubious at best.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

...so the continuation of the argument that it had no effect on the play must also be that Mahomes just flubbed the crucial to-win-the-game pass and threw it 40 feet too far. Right?

I mean the pass went to a spot, and the receiver's pattern was designed to go to that spot, but the timing was wayyyyy off, for some reason that is either connected to, or unconnected to, the guy getting visibly held by the corner who said point blank that he got beat and held the receiver.

I'm not sure I agree. It looked to me like the WR was curling back inside and then tried to readjust to get to the outside throw. He didn't run a corner route.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

It’s big that Bradberry has come out and said it was technically a penalty but equally, that doesn’t change how I feel about it at all.

This.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

The thing is, not to beat the dead horse conversation that we have been having for 15 years or more, but there is offensive holding on almost every play. There is contact past 5 yards on almost every play. Offensive linemen go further downfield than they are supposed to and receivers interfere on almost every screen pass. We accept that to get an outcome that doesn’t fundamentally break the game, we accept it unless it’s absolutely egregious, has a huge impact on a play or if in the flow of the game the refs feel the need to call it.

IMO we can only accept that if we are also willing to say that refs see the infractions and actively choose that the incident is not worthy of being penalized because it did not fit the criteria that you or the league laid out. That is not what we do for what I think are obvious reasons. Instead, we say that the refs made a mistake or just did not see the infraction. Those two perspectives are not mutually exclusive. Refs do make mistakes and do just not see infractions. They are human and they will not be perfect. But they are not making mistakes on every play. They are not missing the calls on every play. They are also seeing the infractions that could draw a flag and choosing not to throw the flag based on their own judgement, points of emphasis/guidance from the league or because the officials just hate team X.

[RainMaker]

By letter of the rules, it was holding. If you look online, there are better angles of it where the jersey is obviously pulled. Fox replays didn't do a good job of catching it.

With that said, they weren't calling that all game. And it sucks for a player to go 59 minutes where refs are "letting them play" and then call a really ticky-tack holding in the biggest play of the season.

My issue with refs all season is consistency. I have no idea what a roughing penalty is. I have no idea what pass interference or holding is. Heck, the refs will just randomly throw out a taunting flag when they're bored but ignore 90% of other taunts.

League needs to figure out what is and isn't a penalty and enforce it equally during the season.

[RainMaker]

Should add that the play by Bradberry was really bad. The worst outcome was the Chiefs getting a 1st down, not a touchdown. You'd be better off getting beaten and giving up the 6 than take a penalty. Just not worth the risk at all.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Sounds to me like the DB did a "risk reward" calculation in his head and hoped for a result in his favor. He didn't get it.

That was my take on that quote, too.

[Carman Bulldog]

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it here as well: Bradberry was beat clean on a double move. It was a timing route and the hold significantly threw that timing off. I think we all agree that it made the ending a bit anti-climatic, but I just don't get anyone that can't see that.

I appreciate the ball landed about 5 yards in front of Smith-Schuster, which means that he needed to probably be around 3 yards ahead of where he ended up to have a shot at catching it. He can probably run about 4 yards per second if not faster in those circumstances. Watching that play, between the jersey grab - and the follow-up jam - I would say he was slowed down at least 3/4's of a second. It probably would have at least been close and the hold took that away.

Really, Bradberry commits holding twice on that play. First the jersey grab to pull himself back into position and then jamming the right arm around Smith-Schuster and wrapping him up to slow him down further.

He had to do the jersey grab as he was burned going the other way. Honestly though, if Bradberry just did the grab and didn't jam Smith-Schuster up right after that with his right arm, I think he probably gets away with it. But the fact that he essentially slowed him down twice there is likely what necessitated the call.

[molson]

The NFL Films footage of the hold, looks like it was a hold. And not the type of coverage that happens on every play, which I keep seeing repeated as fact without any support.

https://v.redd.it/90lrbdbd2hia1/DASH...e=fallback.gif