Game of Thrones on HBO

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

Great episode, glad I ignored this thread since Thursday as Imran's post would have been little too prophetic for me to see beforehand That said, it was some nice predicting!

Ha! Thanks, but I think it just indicates how easily predictable stuff has been this season. Saying that, even though it was predictable, taking the time to tell the story (an hour and a half running time helps with that) made it really good. Now even more I wish they'd taken that 10 episode offer.

Can't Bran just see Cersei's plan?

It's strange what Greenseers can see and can't see... I wonder if they can only see that which they want to see. So Bran doesn't see Cersei's plans, because he doesn't care. He can't see Rheagar and Lyanna's wedding because he didn't know it existed, etc.

Though he probably should have seen that the Night King was leading the humans into a trap in order to get a dragon to destroy the Wall (which begs the question - if Jon & Co. didn't try to get a wight north of the Wall, would the army of the dead been stopped there with no way to get through? And if so... dammit Jon!).

[Vince, Pt. II]

Seems like there's a fairly simple explanation - he can see what is happening, not what people are thinking. So until Euron hires the Gold Company and heads back, there's nothing for Bran to see. Then again, no reason to think he couldn't have listened in on Cersei's conversations with said people...that's the problem with omniscience/visions.

[JPhillips]

Martin or HBO should have found a way to make the threat from the dead an issue in Essos as well as Westeros. All of th talk about the end of humanity is undercut by the apparent fact that Essos and all its people will be fine regardless of what happens in Westeros.

[Coffee Warlord]

The further this thing goes, the further I am filled with certainty there will never be a Martin written conclusion to this series.

Martin wrote himself into a corner and struggled mightily with getting out of it - he's said this many times. Considering how the showrunners have effectively said fuckit and warped time and space to get people / events to where they're supposed to be, it's pretty clear Martin still has no ideas on how to move shit along. I'm sure he would have at least passed some more ideas ("Hey, this event and this event are going to happen, as catalysts to get So and So to the right place.") along if he had them.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

The further this thing goes, the further I am filled with certainty there will never be a Martin written conclusion to this series.

Martin wrote himself into a corner and struggled mightily with getting out of it - he's said this many times. Considering how the showrunners have effectively said fuckit and warped time and space to get people / events to where they're supposed to be, it's pretty clear Martin still has no ideas on how to move shit along. I'm sure he would have at least passed some more ideas ("Hey, this event and this event are going to happen, as catalysts to get So and So to the right place.") along if he had them.

- 8 years ago when they met for info on what happened past the books

Martin: "And then the Night King gets an ice dragon and blows a hole through the Wall"
Writers: "….How?"
Martin: " Not sure. I’m still stuck in Meereen"
Writers: "Okay"


That's why this season is clunky at times. They had a year to come up with what he hasn't in 20.

[Arles]

Since every man who's encountered Dany has fallen in love with her (Jorah, Drogo, Jon, Dario, etc) - maybe Tyrion has a thing for her too and seeing Jon get some action makes him jealous?

I also agree that there was way too much meat on the bone for a 7-episode season. Had they done this in 10, we may have seen more of the Arya-Sansa progression, Sam react to Gilly about the reveal, more build up for the traveling and not be forced to watch a shoehorned Gendry marathon/raven/Dany using the carpool lane to rescue the magnificent 7. Still, I really enjoyed it and can't wait for the final episodes.

All that said, I could give two f*cks about Theon's redemption...

[Kodos]

Yep. He can just die, thanks.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

What was up with Tyrion and the long linger? Second thoughts?

I think Tyrion may have cut a deal with Cersei and we're witnessing the 3rd betrayal. I feel Cersei played him with the obvious pregnancy give away and making him defend himself when it comes to destroying the family. If that's the case what we saw was guilt.

Assuming that's true, it would also be way out of character for Tyrion. Cersei continuing to manipulate him and stay a step ahead of him doesn't make sense. She keeps mentioning that she was paying attention to her father, but at no point has she acted like it. She always acts on raw emotion and with vindictiveness. It was also very odd for Tyrion to offer up that Daenerys wanted to burn down Kings Landing and he had to talk her out of it after telling everyone how different she is.

Overall, a much better episode than the previous, but still nowhere close to some of the better episodes in the series IMO. The acting was on point and the writing better, but I still feel that some characters are being pulled in directions that don't make sense.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I think Tyrion may have cut a deal with Cersei and we're witnessing the 3rd betrayal.

Hmmmm... the 'once for love' treason was also the trickiest and you could be right with Tyrion. I wonder if the love is Tyrion's love for Jamie. Who else would betray Daenerys 'for love'?

[sabotai]

As far as Bran goes, I think he's still in the "bits and pieces" phase of becoming the 3 eyed raven. Still a season left to go (even if it will just be 6 episodes). Can't have him being an all-knowing greenseer yet.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Hmmmm... the 'once for love' treason was also the trickiest and you could be right with Tyrion. I wonder if the love is Tyrion's love for Jamie. Who else would betray Daenerys 'for love'?

I was thinking love for family with Tyrion.

[ISiddiqui]

Speaking of Tyrion's family, it strikes me that Cersei is playing the right card. As it's pointed out to her if the army of the dead comes South, everyone is dead. BUT, if Jon and Daenerys destroy the Night King then their next move is going to be to wipe Cersei out. So basically the only deal that's offered her is call a truce and we'll let you live for a little while longer than we would have prior to this. The only move you have at that point is to lie about a truce, while trying to solidify your position when/if the Dragon and the Wolf come back.

One would think that they may have wanted to offer Cersei something other than we'll kill you later - though, as said, maybe Tyrion did offscreen.

[Coffee Warlord]

Yeah. Theon dying at the hands of Random Ironborn #1230 would have actually been a good ending to that character.

[stevew]

Theon can probably defeat Euron and then redirect the golden company northward, right?

[Coffee Warlord]

I honestly wonder if Euron doesn't betray Cersei and take the Golden Company north. That could be a super interesting twist.

[ISiddiqui]

If you are going to betray Cersei, why take the Golden Company north? Just use them to take the Iron Throne.

[larrymcg421]

I can't imagine the Golden Company agreeing to go north for any price.

[whomario]

Last scene was weirdley cheesy ... Personally i would have just let it happen in vision-view, make it real brief with detached snippets "broadcast" to us via Bran.

I really liked the scenes in King's Landing and the demise of Littlefinger was well done. I for one was doubting Sansa and so i think ultimately the writers did a good job there: Making her turning on Littlefinger in character as seen during the first few episodes of the season, but make us (well, me at least) doubt her enough based on the last couple.

I actually also was at least half-way fooled by the Cersei double-cross. Mostly because of the pregnancy as a universally accepted game-changer when it comes to behavior/morality (imo). I would have found it totally understandable if after rehashing her kids death she would be willing to act for the child's survival, not her family's titles. Because of that i totally understood her telling Daenery's that perhaps she'd remember her help was actually genuine, if not for her than for the unborn child ...


I think Tyrion was just realizing the importance here, nothing more or less.

I think the forshadowing last week with the whole "line of succession" thing has to be read differently than "Daenerys will die prematurely" now. I think she either gets pregnant now after all (as predicted by Jon, loved that line) or after they both find out about them being related they make a decision to stop knocking boots (not wanting to affront Westerosi customs at the very least) and Jon agrees to let her be Queen while she names him her successor in light of her inability to have children, thus going for a different route as Tyrion pressed her to do.

Then again, right now i think there is no way to tell how and at which point the whole series will end. After the war against the dead, leaving the War of the leaving either up in the air or have the dead win ? Or will it become a convuluted multi-front-war ? Or do we get 2 great wars within one shortened season one after another ?

Or we have a time jump now and jump into the middle of the first, then Cersei dies while giving birth and that's that.

[whomario]

Also: As it went down, i think not having Jaime be captured makes a lot more sense. Might be a small thing for that much of being roundabout, but now he made a conscious decision that has kinda been prepared by the writers for a good while.

I have also come around on Jon and think that just maybe Martin/the Writers are simply not as cynical as we though. Maybe it is not a bad thing if the good and moral guys win at some point. I mean, it is not just a rarity in Westeros, but also in out modern TV/Movie landscape. 20 years ago the cliche would be the good guys winning, now the opposite would be more true imo.

[MrBug708]

I think the Theon-Jon interaction was basically Jon saying who raised you is more important than your last name. Basically foreshadowing Ned Stark raising Jon Snow meant Ned was the father and the man Jon aspired to be, not the Mad King

[whomario]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I think the Theon-Jon interaction was basically Jon saying who raised you is more important than your last name. Basically foreshadowing Ned Stark raising Jon Snow meant Ned was the father and the man Jon aspired to be, not the Mad King

Yeah, but he also told Theon that he is/should/can be both Greyjoy and Stark Don't see Jon laying claim on the throne in any way, doesn't mean he can't be both Stark for now/in attitude and Targaryen in a hypothetical future. Plus for that whole dragon-riding thing everybody can't wait for ...

[cthomer5000]

I really wish Theon would have just been beaten to death. I find it hard to believe anyone cares about his story at this point.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It's strange what Greenseers can see and can't see... I wonder if they can only see that which they want to see. So Bran doesn't see Cersei's plans, because he doesn't care. He can't see Rheagar and Lyanna's wedding because he didn't know it existed, etc..

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Seems like there's a fairly simple explanation - he can see what is happening, not what people are thinking. So until Euron hires the Gold Company and heads back, there's nothing for Bran to see. Then again, no reason to think he couldn't have listened in on Cersei's conversations with said people...that's the problem with omniscience/visions.

He also apparently decided to watch the whole Tower of Joy scene, but not listen to his aunt saying her son's name until it became convenient for the writers, so either he's an asshole or the writers don't have it wholly thought through. Or both!

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Yeah. Theon dying at the hands of Random Ironborn #1230 would have actually been a good ending to that character.

+1 He's too far gone to have any real redemption, and to waste that much screen time on him in such a shortened season is just dumb. I'm not even sure why characters are letting him hang around important talks - he has no power base in the Iron Islands, he's betrayed them, he's proven himself a coward over and over, etc.

[BishopMVP]

Like others pointed out, it's like the writers had the scene between Jon & Theon just to set up Jon's motivations after he finds out his heritage. Last we saw those two interacting Jon was telling him he still wanted to kill him on the beach, and only his attempt to save Sansa was preventing him from doing so. Going from that to kind words and saying Theon was still a Stark? Get out of here.

[sabotai]

I think what's going to happen with Theon is that he dies, but sacrifices himself and takes down Euron while doing to so to save Yara.

However it happens, I don't see Theon making it to the end of the series. And the sooner they wrap that part of it up next season, the better.

[stevew]

Geez. How are they possibly going to wrap this up in 6 more hours?

[stevew]

Nobody else thought the CGI at the end was abysmal? Maybe I need to watch on a better TV cause it looked like some Masters of the Universe type cheese.

[stevew]

Also after the Scooby Doo reveal of Jon's true parents, I halfway expected both Bran and Samwell to get killed by an earthquake. Nobody who ever knows Jon's true lineage gets to live long enough to have that conversation with him.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by stevew

Geez. How are they possibly going to wrap this up in 6 more hours?

They'll do what they did this season and quickly wrap up multiple stories each episode that had taken years upon years to build up.

This season had some fun stuff but the show was great at slow-building stories and making you care about characters good and bad. The big moments just didn't feel that big because every episode had a handful in them. The Night King getting a dragon and burning down the wall that had stood for ages was a throw-in at the end of the final episode.

It feels like a show that the writers now hate and just want to finish up as quickly as possible.

[RainMaker]

And why was Theon at this big meeting? Who was he representing? Yara is captured and their fleet was mostly destroyed.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It feels like a show that the writers now hate and just want to finish up as quickly as possible.

Not sure about hate, but I kinda get the feeling that there are a lot of folks involved in GoT that are looking forward to moving on. Don't think that point can be understated re: why things are wrapping up when they are.

[thesloppy]

I'm glad to see pretty much everybody in the world has no patience left for Theon's bullshit.

[SteveM58]

Originally Posted by stevew

Also after the Scooby Doo reveal of Jon's true parents, I halfway expected both Bran and Samwell to get killed by an earthquake. Nobody who ever knows Jon's true lineage gets to live long enough to have that conversation with him.

Hehe...yeah they both should be very afraid.

One thing I found sloppy about that wedding scene is they must have used the same wig for Rhaegar as they did for Viscerys (sp?). Come on....make Rhaegar look cooler than that twerp.

[SteveM58]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I'm glad to see pretty much everybody in the world has no patience left for Theon's bullshit.

Yeah when you feel let down by the Greyjoy thug....it's pretty apparent Theon's character arc didn't go over as intended.

[Chief Rum]

Personally, I'm still interested in the Theon arc.

Sure, it's not at the top of my interest list, but I would still like to see him redeem himself and prove useful.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by SteveM58

Hehe...yeah they both should be very afraid.

One thing I found sloppy about that wedding scene is they must have used the same wig for Rhaegar as they did for Viscerys (sp?). Come on....make Rhaegar look cooler than that twerp.

Yeah. My eyes rolled a bit at the wig as well. I know he's the dude's brother but it just reminded me of that twat.

[bob]

I haven't read the book and have only watched each episode once, so I tend to forget some things. Can someone explain why Baelish wanted Lysa to kill Jon Arryn? That action pretty much triggers everything that happens in Westeros in the series outside of prepping for the white walkers and the invasion from Essos.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It feels like a show that the writers now hate and just want to finish up as quickly as possible.

I don't get that. They'll probably never again work on a show as popular as this one. I'd want to savor it if I was working on this show.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by bob

I haven't read the book and have only watched each episode once, so I tend to forget some things. Can someone explain why Baelish wanted Lysa to kill Jon Arryn? That action pretty much triggers everything that happens in Westeros in the series outside of prepping for the white walkers and the invasion from Essos.

I dont believe it was ever explained in the books.

I think Littlefinger just wanted chaos, as he said, chaos was a ladder. We know his main intention was to trigger a Stark-Lannister conflict, since he orchestrated the poisoning and the letter from Lysa to Cat that the Lannisters poisoned Jon.

I believe everything after that, he was just making up on the fly, adjusting to every situation. He didn't count on Cat getting killed, though.

[stevew]

Chaos is a ladder, Bob.

So internet theory seems to be that Tyrion brokered a deal that was basically the following.

-re-fortify your positions Cercei
-agree with Dany to make her happy
-once the war is over, surrender the throne to Dany and go back to Casterly Rock
-Dany is incapable of producing a successor, so if you do all that I will counsel her to name your offspring as the heir to the throne

And then he was like "oh shii...they're boning, hope he doesn't knock her up"

That was certainly an A+ line that Jon had- "Are you sure she's a reliable source" referring to the witch. Nice little nod to the current Infowars type garbage. Between that and the rowing line about Gendry, the writers did a few nice nods this year. Even though I'm also convinced that B&W are both disinterested in the project and ready to GTFO Dodge. I mean it's been a 10 year thing for them, but probably most viewers have come on within the last 3 years or so. While they're out looking forward for new projects, the wave of late coming viewers are going to be disheartened at how quickly this wraps up.

[bob]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

I dont believe it was ever explained in the books.

I think Littlefinger just wanted chaos, as he said, chaos was a ladder. We know his main intention was to trigger a Stark-Lannister conflict, since he orchestrated the poisoning and the letter from Lysa to Cat that the Lannisters poisoned Jon.

I believe everything after that, he was just making up on the fly, adjusting to every situation. He didn't count on Cat getting killed, though.

Fair enough, thanks. I was just hoping the book gave a little more detail on his purpose behind the Stark-Lannister conflict.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I don't get that. They'll probably never again work on a show as popular as this one. I'd want to savor it if I was working on this show.

Although true, they don't get to enjoy it like us fans do. It's a completely different beast on the other side of the table. Creative types especially are going to be less likely to want to stick with the same formula.

[bob]

Ok, another possibly dumb question.

So Robert's Rebellion basically happens because Rhaegar Targaryen annuls his marriage to Elia Martell, secretly marries Lyanna Stark (and has Jon Snow / Aegon Targaryen), but everyone thinks Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Rickard and Brandon Stark go to protest, get executed, and based on that and other stuff the Mad King was doing, the rebellion from the Baratheon's, Stark's, and others is on. Do I have that right?

Why was Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage a secret? Why not say, nope, no kidnapping, they just got married?

Edit: Seems like plot convention to trigger the rebellion and allow there to be a secret Targaryen without him being a bastard. Unless an annulment and remarriage would have really pissed off Dorne to some level I don't understand without having read the book.

[AnalBumCover]

Lyanna was betrothed to Robert, no?

[bob]

Yes, she was.

Just seems like "hey, we got married instead" is better than saying nothing which results in all out war. Although "we got married instead" might have done that as well (see Wedding, Red).

[SteveM58]

Originally Posted by bob

Yes, she was.

Just seems like "hey, we got married instead" is better than saying nothing which results in all out war. Although "we got married instead" might have done that as well (see Wedding, Red).

Its a good question and maybe we'll find out a few more details next season.

I suspect that maybe Ned and/or Benjen knew the situation with Lyanna when she left with Rhaegar (voluntarily) but thought they could eventually convince her otherwise and do 2 things...(a) preserve her honor/dignity/whatever from being "Rhaegar's whore" and (b) save the entire kingdom from a Robert/Rhaegar battle.

So perhaps Robert actually knew Lyanna left voluntarily, but did not accept it gracefully. Meanwhile, Rickard and Brandon believed Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and protested to the Mad King...who was clearly not playing with a full deck by that point. One misdeed begets another, begets another type of thing. Not unlike Littlefinger's plot which blew up in unexpected ways.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by stevew

So internet theory seems to be that Tyrion brokered a deal that was basically the following.

-re-fortify your positions Cercei
-agree with Dany to make her happy
-once the war is over, surrender the throne to Dany and go back to Casterly Rock
-Dany is incapable of producing a successor, so if you do all that I will counsel her to name your offspring as the heir to the throne

And then he was like "oh shii...they're boning, hope he doesn't knock her up"

That makes very little sense for Dany to do that. I could see the deal being for Tyrion to convince Dany to let Cersei and her child(ren) after her go to Exile or at the most get Casterly Rock upon strong limitations (no standing army f.E. and not being "warden" of anything). Makes no sense at all that Dany would (or even that Tyrion believes she would) ever consider essentially giving Westeros back into the same situation as before. That's not her ...

So yeah, i agree the deal made has sth. to do with that child and Cersei's remarks at the meeting support that there was a deal, but i think it being for the throne is going overbord.

Tyrion was merely realizing the dangers here. They are off to fight for everybody's live, this is a terrible distraction if nothing else.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by bob

I haven't read the book and have only watched each episode once, so I tend to forget some things. Can someone explain why Baelish wanted Lysa to kill Jon Arryn? That action pretty much triggers everything that happens in Westeros in the series outside of prepping for the white walkers and the invasion from Essos.

Jon Arryn was close to discovering the truth about Cersei's children (that they were Jamie's, not Robert's). The middle half of S1 was Ned Stark following in Jon's footsteps (reading the book about how EVERY Baratheon had dark hair, finding the remaining bastards like Gendry & confirming they had dark hair etc).

Also, while Baelish really wanted to marry Cat (god knows why), he also knew that he could marry Lysa or at least control her (and thus the Vale) if Jon was dead. Which shouldn't have been possible for someone as low born as him.

[bob]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Jon Arryn was close to discovering the truth about Cersei's children (that they were Jamie's, not Robert's). The middle half of S1 was Ned Stark following in Jon's footsteps (reading the book about how EVERY Baratheon had dark hair, finding the remaining bastards like Gendry & confirming they had dark hair etc).

I remember this, but can't see why exactly Baelish would care enough to have Jon killed. How does this directly affect him?

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Also, while Baelish really wanted to marry Cat (god knows why), he also knew that he could marry Lysa or at least control her (and thus the Vale) if Jon was dead. Which shouldn't have been possible for someone as low born as him.

This part makes sense, but not sure why he'd want to pin it on the Lannister's specifically.

Unrelated question - when Robert's Rebellion was successful and the Targaryen dynasty was deposed, a new ruler and line of succession took over. Who cares if Jon Snow is a Targaryen and would have been next in line under different circumstances? The Targaryen are out of power...

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by bob

I remember this, but can't see why exactly Baelish would care enough to have Jon killed. How does this directly affect him?

I don't think Baelish would've necessarily killed him for it, but once Cersei found out she would've used Baelish (or Varys) to pull off her plans.

(I think they also clumsily implied that Baelish was the implement Cersei used to try and assassinate Bran when he was in his coma too.)

This part makes sense, but not sure why he'd want to pin it on the Lannister's specifically.

Turn the sisters even more against the Lannisters, isolate unstable Lysa in the Vale out of fear, imply to everyone he was on their side.

Unrelated question - when Robert's Rebellion was successful and the Targaryen dynasty was deposed, a new ruler and line of succession took over. Who cares if Jon Snow is a Targaryen and would have been next in line under different circumstances? The Targaryen are out of power...

Well presumably the part of Dany that believes it to be her birthright will need to rationalize it away.

I'm sure we'll get some dumb scenes where he's worried Northern Lords will think he's a pawn of Daenerys & threaten to desert his cause before remembering that he still has Stark blood, he's been raised in Winterfell by Starks, they chose him as a leader when it wasn't technically the correct line of succession, and oh yeah, shit, the white walkers are south of the Wall.