Forks Over Knives (Or, the Western diet vs. a plant-based diet)

[Kodos]

Based on QuikSand's post below, I put Forks Over Knives in my Netflix cue a while back, and it has been sitting on our shelf for some time. Finally watched it last night. It was an eye-opening experience for me. As a guy whose preferred diet includes meat at lunch and dinner, it really made me sit up and take notice. I'm 5'10, 215 lbs. Clearly, my normal diet is not working for me. So, I'm going to give the plant-based diet a real shot. Maybe even do a dynasty about.

By coincidence, I had already started a diet (actually, my wife and I agreed to a weight-loss competition) last Friday when I stopped drinking soda and chose healthy snacks over the usual crap I eat. In the afternoon at work, I decided to go for 15-minute walks instead of grabbing a soda and candy bar on my break to wake me up. I noticed I get the same uptick in energy from the walk as I did from the caffeine/sugar fix. In the first week, I lost 3.6 pounds. A good start. I'd like to get down to 175 or 180.

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Probably worthy of its own thread, but the takeaway I have from "Forks Over Knives" (and a pretty fair exposure to the several principals behind this way of thinking) is basically along these lines:

-There is very strong evidence that a diet heavy in meat and dairy creates a much stronger opportunity for heart disease in its many forms, at least many types of cancer, and a number of other diseases. There is a great deal more to the "plant based, whole foods" dietary approach than just losing weight.

-The strongest evidence, it seems to me, is that casein (a protein found in dairy products) in particular is a pretty serious hazard. I happen to agree that there's some degree of unwarranted interpolation from casein to other animal-based proteins or diets. But I also dissent from any judgment that this possibly premature set of conclusions are inherently wrong because of the zeal some people obviously have behind them.

-The data set from the so-called "China Study" (a long term study of health and nutrition conducted across China starting in the 1970s) leads in a number of sometimes conflicting directions, and this is not a shock, but there are a pretty substantial number of very, very strong correlations that point in the same direction -- the availability and consumption of animal products in the diet is a strong indicator of the prevalence of a wide variety of serious long term diseases. There truly are case after case of afflictions that are widespread in more affluent areas and are virtually absent in poorer areas (whose citizens eat far fewer animal products, but are genetically inseparable from the others).

-Beyond the highest profile studies and the cross-national scatterplots, there are really scary tidibits that point very directly to us (the public) really not getting it right on this sort of thing. For most of my life, I've been under the impression that the heart disease in my family is just a tough hand I've been dealt, and that I am likely on a progression toward real problems there (understanding that my lifestyle choices play some role, but figuring a life with heavy medication is in my present and future no matter what). Then you learn that autopsies in youngish Americans who die of unrelated causes already show early signs of heart disease... while autopsies of people from non-animal-eating cultures show essentially *none* of these signs at any age. Great pithy statement for the debate: if you're a cardiologist and you move out into rural china where nobody eats much meat, milk, or butter... you're basically going to have to sell pencils for a living, you're not going to have anything to do.

-Probably the single most consolidated fact that is deeply hard to dispute is this one: nutritionally speaking, there's basically nothing you get from eating animal products that isn't better for you coming from plants. Yes, a completely plant-based diet may require some vitamin B12 or other modest supplements, but all in all, there's really no contest at all, and virtually everyone acknowledges this.

-Amidst all this, I think the healthful effects of a much-reduced consumption of animal proteins, especially dairy, is very strongly supported. What I don't see enough clear evidence for is the health-driven necessity of going to absolute zero. The most powerful changes seem to take place when going from "high animal" to "low animal" content in the diet. This isn't as thrilling to the animal rights side of the debate, who really really want to have strong science behind their pre-existing viewpoint... but thus far there doesn't seem to be a powerful case (to me) that an absolute vegan diet is separable from one where, say, 5% of your calories come from animal proteins (still far lower than our standard diet here, of course).

-There's a quandary in the medical and scientific and regulatory communities over what to do about this. Do you advise people that they should make seemingly radical changes to diet and lifestyle? Or do you try to get them to make less drastic changes that are admittedly more likely to take root? (This takes the shape of a doctor-patient conversation, all the way up to the development of the national "food pyramid" guidelines) I think I depart from many of the true believers on these matters in acknowledging this is a legitimately tough call in many ways.

-Politics of health care subsidies set aside for the moment, it's an almost scary notion that there might well be a fairly simple, readily/universally available, and practically dirt-cheap means to very nearly wipe out heart disease, and to at least substantially (if not massively) deplete the prevalence of many cancers and long-term diseases like diabetes, asthma, rheumatoid arthritis, and the like. Not a way to do it in Sweden or in rural China in the 70s, but right here and right now.

I think it's a very intriguing area of exploration right now. And all told, I think there's a significant chance that what our society saw with smoking over the last 30-40 years could happen next to animal consumption, at least in part.

[Subby]

Good stuff. I have probably gone back to QS' post in that thread four or five times. I have often thought through the ramifications of cutting dairy, meat and wheat from my diet. If I lived alone, I think it would be a cinch - but definitely much tougher with five other people in my house.

Of course, that's just a crazy excuse. I really should try it. Will be interested to read if you decide to go into dynasty mode.

[lungs]

I'll try to post here without the blinders of being a dairy producer, but that'd be close to impossible. The simplest way to put it is that each person needs to assess their own risk factors and adjust their diets accordingly.

I'm a firm believer that genetics plays a large role. While we may share 99.9999% DNA with all other humans that 0.0001% is actually quite an enormous amount of genetic material. Looking at the affect of diet on Chinese people doesn't necessarily mean much to somebody of Northern European stock. Speaking in evolutionary terms, the body's nutritional traits would be some of the most adaptable traits. A group of humans that moves into a certain geographic area adapts to the sources of nutrition available.

My descendants from the frigid climates of Scandinavia didn't have lots of vegetation available that are digestible to the human body compared to people from a more tropical climate. They adapted by eating animals and animal products from animals that could digest the vegetation available.

My grandfathers made 89 and 87 years old and my grandmothers are in their late 80s and going strong and all have been on a meat and potatoes diet their whole lives. I think it's pretty safe to say I'll do fine on a meat and potatoes diet (everything in moderation of course). If I had a family history of heart problems or whatever, I would definitely see the merit in reducing animal products from my diet.

And with the evolutionary angle, introducing an animal-heavy diet has been a disaster to nationalities of people not traditionally accustomed to animal-heavy diets. From a selfish point of view, I'm going to hope the Chinese don't figure this out as China is one of the great emerging export markets for my dairy products (SE Asia too)

[Vince, Pt. II]

I was dating a girl for a while who had a pretty crazy lifestyle, and to try to win some brownie points, I suggested we go watch this movie in the theater. It was pretty fascinating stuff. It's been a while since I watched it, and I remember being a little disappointed that they didn't explore some other options with their research (I felt it was a somewhat one-sided account), but overall I came away with a much healthier respect for the diet part of her "crazy lifestyle." The thing that struck me the most was the study of Norway during the Nazi occupation. It was over a very small period of time in the scheme of things, but the results were staggering.

I wish that it had done more to change my dietary habits (the fact that the girl and I broke up didn't help), but for now just knowing about it and applying it occasionally is a step in the right direction.

[Antmeister]

Uh wow....

Well for us, we came across this movie after trying to find solutions for my son. On top of his Autism, we found out he needed to be on a gluten-free/casein-free diet. Gluten would cause his stomach to bloat and I won't describe what casein does. Since we knew he had limitations on what he could eat, we wanted to convert over as a family. So we kept dairy, gluten as well as sugar (as much as we can) out of our diet. Was quite amazed at how many products were on the shelves that at least contained 2 of those.

But this last summer we came across Forks Over Knives and that basically changed our whole way of thinking. In the last 5 months, it was amazing to see the changes in the way we ate. We basically had to force them to eat small portions of vegetables. Now we eat some amount of leafy greens (mostly spinach and kale) everyday with other assorted vegetables and/or fruits. And for the most part I would say about 70% of our meals are raw while the other 30 is vegetarian. Stevia and Honey replaced sugar (which is not even used that much). Spirulina and tumeric have been normal things to add to some meals.

That time span also yielded some positive results to our health. At first, it was a bit strange, because it was as if my body was purging and I could not understand how 3 corn tortillas stuff with vegetables was causing this. Well in time, that went away. Apparently I was clearing stuff from my body and I dropped 20 lbs, getting down to my high school weight (165 lbs). I also noticed that this winter my bronchitis didn't flare up like it usually does when the season changes to winter. So that was a nice little surprise.

However, this changes the way you shop as well. To keep things on a similar budget, you have to know what fruits/veggies are in season. You are going to have to go to the store more often since you want to buy in smaller quantities to make sure that you food is close to fresh as possible. Luckily our stores carry a lot of organic produce and the prices are reasonable. But we do go to the local farmer markets since we can actually know where our food is coming from. I learned much about this from this book Raw Food on a Budget. This is not just for raw foodist since she gives a slew of tips on saving money eating organic foods. I believe she also sells her book through Amazon as well.

I am convinced that there is something to it since none of us has felt energy depleted not having meat in our diet. Not to say I have vowed never to eat meat again. We still ate turkey for Thanksgiving and while it had a different feeling in my stomach, there was no ill effect. I am just treating meat as I treat sweet treats. They are meant to be enjoyed once in a great while.

So yeah, Fork Over Knives was a kickstarter for us, but we did this out of necessity for my son and I don't foresee us going back.

[Kodos]

Yeah, my plan is not to drop meat entirely (as it is my favorite kind of food), but to make it an occasional treat, rather than a major staple of my diet. Thanks for your story. It's encouraging to hear what a positive effect changing your diet had for you.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm hoping I got the juicer I mentioned as a potential gift to my family. Meat has already decreased significantly as a component of my diet (and when I do have it it's 95% chicken) as part of my whole lifestyle-change.

Just feels...healthier. Although seafood is delicious too I must admit.

[thebigfert]

I've been a longtime lurker on here, since I found this board to get some tips on FOF years ago... I noticed there were far more viewers on the Off Topic page so I checked it out, and have been using this board as a major source of news from everything from the whole conference realignment fiasco to politics to music and so on and so forth... This place was kinda like a collection of blogs for stuff that interested me, before blogs were really all that common. Never felt compelled to sign up and post anything til now, but this subject is something near and dear to my heart...

I've been meat-free for about two years now, most of that being a completely plant based diet (vegan). Before this I could count on being sick to varying degrees about 6 months out of the year, as I work a job where catching germs is pretty easy. I would have mild fits of depression and lethargy. I was about 230, 35% body fat. Just physically and mentally out of shape. Within 2 months of giving up meat I had dropped down to 190, and within 5 was down to 170 and about 8-9% BF. Recently, in order to prove to myself that I could gain muscle on a plant based diet, I've gotten up to about 210 at about 8%. I haven't been sick once since, nor have I had any feelings of depression and my energy levels are higher than they were when I was in my early 20's (I'm 33 now)... At a time in my life that my strength should be decreasing I'm currently throwing up 325 on the bench which is about 25 pounds more than I could get up when I was choking down chicken breast and egg whites at the age of 21... Moving to a plant based diet has essentially improved every facet of my life. I know its not for everyone, but I felt the need to pop in with my own testimonial, so to speak, for anyone that's thinking about dabbling in the lifestyle. Its been the best decision I've made for myself in quite a long time, and I don't say that lightly...

That said, I still haven't seen "Forks over Knives." Haha... I spent a lot of time reading up on related literature when I was first getting into a plant based diet and I've just put seeing the movie on the backburner... Since I'm already a convert, I think I'm just subconsciously saving it in case I ever start to wonder to myself, "Why am I doing this?" Not that I see that ever happening at this point...

[PilotMan]

Here is my repost from the Weight Loss Dynasty:

Man, I was so embarrassed to not be back in this thread. I felt like nothing was ever going to get better. I would try and fail and give up and fail again. I was able to make some small changes right away, such as I cut I diet pop intake to 1 per day, but I never really did get things going with this until......

My wife has Fibromyalgia. For the past year and a half my wife has had to deal with some pretty intense pain with no relief in sight and no prospects for it to get any better. She was on a medicine that helped with the pain but also caused her to gain quite a bit of weight. In the meantime, she researched and researched and tried a few other relief methods.

In July she started a hard core Vegan diet plan. This was not easy, a complete life change and there was no bet that it would help at all. A little while later she quite the drugs that were causing the weight gain because she couldn't take it anymore. About a month later, her pain level was better than it had been in a long time.

I started to become easier to eat what she ate and then after watching Forks over Knives, we decided that we needed to do this for the family too. Now the rest of us aren't eating Vegan and we don't do it for any belief system, but starting around labor day we became nearly Vegetarian. Meat here or there, and for me, chicken or fish. I haven't had a hamburger since August.

My wife used to only be able to walk for 10 minutes on the treadmill at a time. By the end of summer we were walking up to 5 miles a day together. Her life is hers again and while she isn't pain free, her life is livable again.

I have never felt better either. I try and exercise and eat as right as I can. Many of you know I am a huge grilling aficionado, that has been the hardest thing for me.

As of this morning I am down to 266.6, that can fluctuate as much as 5 pounds in a day(up not down), but as long as my trend continues down, I stay happy. I have no long term goals except to keep living like this. I would like to break 250. I would like to break 235. I would like to break 220. But there are no timelines for those goals. I an able to wear my skinny jeans again. Jeans I haven't been back in, in over 5 years. I have seen inches disappear.

So, I'm down almost 25 pounds since Labor day. I wish it would come off faster. But as long as it trends down I'll be happy with it. The last few weeks have been slow. But I haven't felt this good in a very long time. If I get to 250 It'll be the lightest I've been in 10 years.

I can't emphasize this enough. After what I have seen with my wife, anyone else suffering through Fibromyalgia has to make the diet change, and Forks over Knives is a must watch for anyone.

Basically, If I hadn't seen it first hand, I'd never have believed it. This is the real deal. It's a hard truth to face, especially for me, but it is the best solution for our futures, and overall health for people all over.

[Dodgerchick]

Awww, your stories put a smile on my face, so awesome! I mentioned it in a thread somewhere but yes, this movie completely changed our lives. When my son comes home and says he chose fruits and gluten free food at a school holiday party, we know we made the right choice because he feels the difference.

[cuervo72]

One thing that I found with a low carb diet - at least when I started and was really strict - is that just having a set of foods you absolutely couldn't touch cut down on intake. Mac & Cheese left over from the kids? Can't touch it. Stray candy or desert? Can't touch it. It leads to a lot less snacking just because your options are limited. You have to seek something out rather than just munching on whatever is around, which is usually a lot.

Even outside of the merits of a diet like this, I'd assume the same would apply.

[lighthousekeeper]

fwiw, i'm living proof that it's possible to be a fat vegetarian.

[MacroGuru]

Ok, this thread has piqued my interest.

Reason being, I was diagnosed several years ago with polymyositis and as most of you know I love food. Without the travel and the constant running around I was doing, my weight gain and love for food is going to catch up with me. But I have also been experiencing my muscle issues more than usual.

My girlfriend is lactose intolerant so no true dairy is had with her. We have soy cheese and soy milk.

This would be a major change for me as I love my cheese and milk, but I think it is a change I need to make. I don't eat a ton of red meat, it's mostly chicken and fish so I need to treat it like others are saying, it's a treat.

I will be watching this within this week and as usual, the turn of the year, I will be making a shift...

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

Ok, this thread has piqued my interest.

Reason being, I was diagnosed several years ago with polymyositis and as most of you know I love food. Without the travel and the constant running around I was doing, my weight gain and love for food is going to catch up with me. But I have also been experiencing my muscle issues more than usual.

My girlfriend is lactose intolerant so no true dairy is had with her. We have soy cheese and soy milk.

This would be a major change for me as I love my cheese and milk, but I think it is a change I need to make. I don't eat a ton of red meat, it's mostly chicken and fish so I need to treat it like others are saying, it's a treat.

I will be watching this within this week and as usual, the turn of the year, I will be making a shift...

Also watch "Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead."

[Danny]

I haven't seen the specific film you are talking about, but I know Vegetables and the nutrients they provide are very healthy, but there is no need to cut out meat from your diet (when I say meat, I include the lean meats like chicken, turkey and fish). In fact, I think that it is rather unhealthy unless substituted with other proteins like eggs, milk, etc... as thin doesn't mean healthy and protein is essential for good health. And getting your protein from soy is bad for you, if you are male. It increases your levels of estrogen hormones and decreases your levels of testosterone.

For me it would be awfully difficult to obtain my daily protein intake (300 grams) without meat. A lot comes from my use of whey and casein, but I love me my meat (though, when I say meat, it's actually almost all turkey, chicken, and tuna). I only eat beef or pork maybe once a week, though I love that as well.

Right now I am 6'3 and 275. I've been bulking and while I need to cut about 15-20 pounds of fat, I am predominantly muscle. I am also in the best physical shape of my life, extremely strong and still as fast as I was when I was thinner. My cardiovascular shape is a little off as I am still getting back to where I was before I hurt my ankle, but it's still very good for someone my size and with a sedentary lifestyle (not including working out and playing sports, but general work, friends and family life).

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Kodos

when I stopped drinking soda and chose healthy snacks over the usual crap I eat. In the afternoon at work, I decided to go for 15-minute walks instead of grabbing a soda and candy bar on my break to wake me up. I noticed I get the same uptick in energy from the walk as I did from the caffeine/sugar fix. In the first week, I lost 3.6 pounds. A good start. I'd like to get down to 175 or 180.

See, this is a far better change than reducing your meat intake. Meat is good for you, and eliminating soda and things like chips and candy will give you the calorie reduction in order to lose weight. And then paired with regular exercise will leave you healthy and at a good weight.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

Ok, this thread has piqued my interest.

Reason being, I was diagnosed several years ago with polymyositis and as most of you know I love food. Without the travel and the constant running around I was doing, my weight gain and love for food is going to catch up with me. But I have also been experiencing my muscle issues more than usual.

My girlfriend is lactose intolerant so no true dairy is had with her. We have soy cheese and soy milk.

This would be a major change for me as I love my cheese and milk, but I think it is a change I need to make. I don't eat a ton of red meat, it's mostly chicken and fish so I need to treat it like others are saying, it's a treat.

I will be watching this within this week and as usual, the turn of the year, I will be making a shift...

I am not that familiar with your diagnosis, and just going off what I know, so I would definitely ask your doctor. But I can't imagine lower levels of testosterone and higher levels of estrogen would be good for a muscle related disability.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Here is my repost from the Weight Loss Dynasty:



Basically, If I hadn't seen it first hand, I'd never have believed it. This is the real deal. It's a hard truth to face, especially for me, but it is the best solution for our futures, and overall health for people all over.

All these fad diets are so interesting, it still comes down to calorie intake vs. calorie's burned. Veggie diets work for weight loss because it significantly reduces your calorie in take. But again, you would be far better off long term by eating more and exercising more. And again, for purposes of people on here, who are almost all men, there are differences between men and women's bodies. An all veggie diet is healthier for women because they can supplement their loss of protein with soy. That is not healthy for men.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Danny

All these fad diets are so interesting, it still comes down to calorie intake vs. calorie's burned. Veggie diets work for weight loss because it significantly reduces your calorie in take. But again, you would be far better off long term by eating more and exercising more. And again, for purposes of people on here, who are almost all men, there are differences between men and women's bodies. An all veggie diet is healthier for women because they can supplement their loss of protein with soy. That is not healthy for men.

With all due respect - you're not in the weight loss dynasty thread and you're not a weight-loss expert. "Eat more and exercise more" isn't going to help someone that wants or needs to lose a significant amount of weight lose that weight.

And the changes PilotMan is making aren't part of a "fad diet" - they're part of a lifestyle change and a change in his relationship with food.

"Meat here or there" isn't an unhealthy lifestyle necessarily. It may work better for some people than for others.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

With all due respect - you're not in the weight loss dynasty thread and you're not a weight-loss expert. "Eat more and exercise more" isn't going to help someone that wants or needs to lose a significant amount of weight lose that weight.

And the changes PilotMan is making aren't part of a "fad diet" - they're part of a lifestyle change and a change in his relationship with food.

"Meat here or there" isn't an unhealthy lifestyle necessarily. It may work better for some people than for others.

I am not claiming to be an expert, just sharing some thoughts. Oh and I struggled with my weight throughout my childhood and early adult life. And even now, I have to always be conscious of it. I have always had a slow metabolism and obesity runs on my moms side of the family. Her dad died of heart problems in his 50's as he weighed over 450 pounds. I personally weighed 300 pounds and was obese when I was 14. And after losing weight doing extreme calorie reduction that was unsustainable, weighed back at 325 pounds and was obese when I was 20.

But oh forgive me, I have not posted in the dynasty thread

[Danny]

Again, I have a chronic slow metabolism, but have built it up to a normal level with some of the things I have mentioned. Regular weight lifting, 6-7 meals throughout the day, high protein in take, plenty of vitamins, drinking plenty of water.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Danny

All these fad diets are so interesting, it still comes down to calorie intake vs. calorie's burned. Veggie diets work for weight loss because it significantly reduces your calorie in take. But again, you would be far better off long term by eating more and exercising more. And again, for purposes of people on here, who are almost all men, there are differences between men and women's bodies. An all veggie diet is healthier for women because they can supplement their loss of protein with soy. That is not healthy for men.

It's more more than simply calorie intake and burning calories. The two main people in "Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead" are two overweight men and they do a vegetarian diet. "Fork Over Knives" pretty much takes care of the "we need meat for the protein" debate.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

"Eat more and exercise more" isn't going to help someone that wants or needs to lose a significant amount of weight lose that weight.

Sorry if my posts have come off as acting as if I know everything. That is not my intention. Issues regarding diet and weight are a topic I care very much about due to my life experience.

And that part you quoted, is the thing that has helped me the most, by far. It may not work for everyone, but I know personally that the linek of thinking that one needs to severely restrict one's own diet can be very tough to sustain and often results in at the very least, an unhealthy approach to diet and exercise and sometimes eating disorders.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Matthean

It's more more than simply calorie intake and burning calories. The two main people in "Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead" are two overweight men and they do a vegetarian diet. "Fork Over Knives" pretty much takes care of the "we need meat for the protein" debate.

I should probably watch it then and see what they have to say. Do they advocate not eating meat? Or do they simply say you don't need to eat meat? Cause that is a big difference. While protein is important, you can get protein from things like eggs, fish, milk etc...

This diet probably does work for some, but for those like me, if I tried to go on vegetarian diet at some point (and I did something similar), it can work for weight loss, but is not something that can be sustained and results in ending up at or beyond your original weight (again, for those similar to me).

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Danny

I should probably watch it then and see what they have to say. Do they advocate not eating meat? Or do they simply say you don't need to eat meat? Cause that is a big difference. While protein is important, you can get protein from things like eggs, fish, milk etc...

This diet probably does work for some, but for those like me, if I tried to go on vegetarian diet at some point (and I did something similar), it can work for weight loss, but is not something that can be sustained and results in ending up at or beyond your original weight (again, for those similar to me).

"Fork over Knives" is straight up endorsing a vegan diet without really hammering the word vegan. It's hardly spoken in the movie all things considered. The key phrase is a plant based diet. They do cover dairy as well. One of the two main guys grew up on a farm and was taught milk being the perfect food. The movie also shows a MMA fighter who is a vegetarian/vegan.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Matthean

"Fork over Knives" is straight up endorsing a vegan diet without really hammering the word vegan. It's hardly spoken in the movie all things considered. The key phrase is a plant based diet. They do cover dairy as well. One of the two main guys grew up on a farm and was taught milk being the perfect food. The movie also shows a MMA fighter who is a vegetarian/vegan.

So they are vegan and advocate not consuming animal products like milk? Or they are vegetarian and say milk is ok? You seem to be using vegan and vegetarian interchangeably when they are very different.

[Danny]

And not to completely discount the mma fighter cause he may be clean, but I don't really trust the results of those in profession where probably at least half and likely more take steroids.

[sabotai]

I suppose "plant-based diet" could be taken as a code-phrase for vegan, but if you really just pay attention to the studies that are referenced in the documentary, none of them are "OMG Vegan is good and everything else sucks".

One of the main studies that's referenced a few times is one showing the difference between two groups. One group had 20% of their consumption from animal products while the other was at 5%. The 20% showed long term health issues while the 5% showed few if any at all.

It goes back to what was quoted from QS in the first post.

"-Amidst all this, I think the healthful effects of a much-reduced consumption of animal proteins, especially dairy, is very strongly supported. What I don't see enough clear evidence for is the health-driven necessity of going to absolute zero. The most powerful changes seem to take place when going from "high animal" to "low animal" content in the diet. This isn't as thrilling to the animal rights side of the debate, who really really want to have strong science behind their pre-existing viewpoint... but thus far there doesn't seem to be a powerful case (to me) that an absolute vegan diet is separable from one where, say, 5% of your calories come from animal proteins (still far lower than our standard diet here, of course)."

So while the documentary might advocate a vegan diet (implicitly or covertly), the research it cites doesn't quite go that far, nor do many (or any...it's been awhile since I watched it) of the experts that appear in the film.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I suppose "plant-based diet" could be taken as a code-phrase for vegan, but if you really just pay attention to the studies that are referenced in the documentary, none of them are "OMG Vegan is good and everything else sucks".

One of the main studies that's referenced a few times is one showing the difference between two groups. One group had 20% of their consumption from animal products while the other was at 5%. The 20% showed long term health issues while the 5% showed few if any at all.

It goes back to what was quoted from QS in the first post.

"-Amidst all this, I think the healthful effects of a much-reduced consumption of animal proteins, especially dairy, is very strongly supported. What I don't see enough clear evidence for is the health-driven necessity of going to absolute zero. The most powerful changes seem to take place when going from "high animal" to "low animal" content in the diet. This isn't as thrilling to the animal rights side of the debate, who really really want to have strong science behind their pre-existing viewpoint... but thus far there doesn't seem to be a powerful case (to me) that an absolute vegan diet is separable from one where, say, 5% of your calories come from animal proteins (still far lower than our standard diet here, of course)."

So while the documentary might advocate a vegan diet (implicitly or covertly), the research it cites doesn't quite go that far, nor do many (or any...it's been awhile since I watched it) of the experts that appear in the film.

And that seems a much more reasonable approach. Again for me though, while it may better for my long term health if I had a more plant based diet, I know having eating habits that I can stick to and keeps me in good physical shape and at a better weight will be far better for my health and happiness than going with diets that I wouldn't stick to and would constantly struggle with.

[thebigfert]

Originally Posted by Danny

I haven't seen the specific film you are talking about, but I know Vegetables and the nutrients they provide are very healthy, but there is no need to cut out meat from your diet (when I say meat, I include the lean meats like chicken, turkey and fish). In fact, I think that it is rather unhealthy unless substituted with other proteins like eggs, milk, etc... as thin doesn't mean healthy and protein is essential for good health. And getting your protein from soy is bad for you, if you are male. It increases your levels of estrogen hormones and decreases your levels of testosterone.

For me it would be awfully difficult to obtain my daily protein intake (300 grams) without meat. A lot comes from my use of whey and casein, but I love me my meat (though, when I say meat, it's actually almost all turkey, chicken, and tuna). I only eat beef or pork maybe once a week, though I love that as well.

Right now I am 6'3 and 275. I've been bulking and while I need to cut about 15-20 pounds of fat, I am predominantly muscle. I am also in the best physical shape of my life, extremely strong and still as fast as I was when I was thinner. My cardiovascular shape is a little off as I am still getting back to where I was before I hurt my ankle, but it's still very good for someone my size and with a sedentary lifestyle (not including working out and playing sports, but general work, friends and family life).

Its ironic that you claim that soy will increase your levels of estrogen, while you yourself admit you get a lot of your protein from dairy based products... Soy does contain phytoestrogens, but these do not effect the actual estrogen levels in your body and certainly do not decrease testosterone. Dairy cows on the other hand are pumped full of estrogen, so that they can start producing milk earlier, which in turn ends up in dairy products. This is why over the last couple of generations girls are starting to mature earlier and earlier than they ever have, among other problems... so if you're actually, concerned about your testosterone/estrogen balance, you are much better off getting rid of dairy than soy.

Also, on the whole protein consumption argument. Even for an extremely active athlete 300 grams seems a bit excessive. Your body can only process about 30-40 grams every 3-4 hours anyway, and everything beyond that is stored as body fat or burned away as energy. You could probably easily get by with half of what you are taking in, and experience no loss of muscle (and you will lose body fat, provided you don't replace the protein with other foods). I'm currently sitting at about 215 lbs. right now at about 7-8% bodyfat and am lifting more than a lot of the dudes that are much bigger than I am at the gym, and I get by just fine on about 100-130 grams a day... Everyone is different, of course, but most people have had more protein equals more muscle driven into their heads repeatedly, and at a certain point this just isn't true. I could get into the effects of extreme levels of protein on your liver, kidenys, bones, etc, but I'll digress for now...

Because... the whole point of the movie, from what I've heard, isn't about weight loss or body composition, but on total health... People who consume little to no meat live longer, don't get heart disease, have lower cancer rates, and are just generally more healthy... A very small part of this probably has something to do with vegetarians and vegans having far, far less cases of obesity than meat eaters, but it is mostly because the human body isn't built to process the large amounts of meat that people try to cram into our bodies. For example, true carnivores have mechanisms in their bodies to deal with the high amounts of cholesterol in a meat based diet. Humans, however, weren't designed to eat a mostly plant based diet, so when we consume high amounts of cholesterol, it builds up in our arteries, and the complications go on from there...

What you want to put in your body, is your own choice, but to say that not eating meat is unhealthy is simply ignoring study after study that says the exact opposite is true.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by thebigfert

Its ironic that you claim that soy will increase your levels of estrogen, while you yourself admit you get a lot of your protein from dairy based products... Soy does contain phytoestrogens, but these do not effect the actual estrogen levels in your body and certainly do not decrease testosterone. Dairy cows on the other hand are pumped full of estrogen, so that they can start producing milk earlier, which in turn ends up in dairy products. This is why over the last couple of generations girls are starting to mature earlier and earlier than they ever have, among other problems... so if you're actually, concerned about your testosterone/estrogen balance, you are much better off getting rid of dairy than soy.

Also, on the whole protein consumption argument. Even for an extremely active athlete 300 grams seems a bit excessive. Your body can only process about 30-40 grams every 3-4 hours anyway, and everything beyond that is stored as body fat or burned away as energy. You could probably easily get by with half of what you are taking in, and experience no loss of muscle (and you will lose body fat, provided you don't replace the protein with other foods). I'm currently sitting at about 215 lbs. right now at about 7-8% bodyfat and am lifting more than a lot of the dudes that are much bigger than I am at the gym, and I get by just fine on about 100-130 grams a day... Everyone is different, of course, but most people have had more protein equals more muscle driven into their heads repeatedly, and at a certain point this just isn't true. I could get into the effects of extreme levels of protein on your liver, kidenys, bones, etc, but I'll digress for now...

Because... the whole point of the movie, from what I've heard, isn't about weight loss or body composition, but on total health... People who consume little to no meat live longer, don't get heart disease, have lower cancer rates, and are just generally more healthy... A very small part of this probably has something to do with vegetarians and vegans having far, far less cases of obesity than meat eaters, but it is mostly because the human body isn't built to process the large amounts of meat that people try to cram into our bodies. For example, true carnivores have mechanisms in their bodies to deal with the high amounts of cholesterol in a meat based diet. Humans, however, weren't designed to eat a mostly plant based diet, so when we consume high amounts of cholesterol, it builds up in our arteries, and the complications go on from there...

What you want to put in your body, is your own choice, but to say that not eating meat is unhealthy is simply ignoring study after study that says the exact opposite is true.

On the first part, I have read a lot of studies that say too much soy does increase estrogen levels. In fact I read a long one recently that advocated for soy, but still admitted that it does raise estrogen levels slightly. And I have read a lot about isolated whey and casein and have never read any research stating they raise estrogen levels (but if you have some, I would be interested in reading).

For the second paragraph, you are probably right that I don't need 300 grams a day (I actually average 240-300, but I had read a lot that stating it is good to take in 1 gram per pound of body weight, so I try for that and have had excellent results. Additionally, doing that keeps me content with my diet and helps me feel full throughout the day. If some of it is converted to energy then that is fine. And it's certainly not stored as fat. Before my bulking phase I had lost 35 pounds while consuming that amount of protein. But like you said, everyone is different. I didn't start with that amount, but have found that I have the best results with that. Regarding the negative impact of protein on your kidneys, liver etc... all the research I have read states that there is absolutely no negative health impacts on either of these as long as you drink enough water (with the 250-300 gram range I mentioned). I do know there are some people who take in 400+ grams a day and even I would admit that is way overboard.

I think a large issue is lumping in meat together. All these studies talk about animal products, but don't seem to be differentiating between the dozens of individual products. Yes, if you eat a lot of beef, pork, dark meet chicken, that is definitely bad for you. I exclusively eat white meat chicken, tuna and white meat turkey on a daily basis which has very little cholesterol. My cholesterol levels are good, at this point at least.

I have read a lot that says eating lean chicken, turkey and fish is good for you. None ofthe studies I have seen pointed out in this thread seem to specifically study the effects of specific animal products independently. If in the one study just talked about that extra 15% of animal products included whole milk, eggs with yolk, beef, etc... (as I would bet they did) then of course results would indicate that lowering animal products from 20% to 5% would be good

It sounds like you are in fantastic shape and and have a much better overall life after going with no meat, so well done. For me, having been significantly overweight much of my life, I am very happy with the results that I have had (even if I never reach 8% body fat). And again, this is something I've been dealing with since I was 6, so it's not like I don't have a body of work to measure the kind of results I have had. I think each person needs to do what works for them and I definitely don't think one thing works the same for everyone.

[Danny]

And by the way, I think it is fascinating that there is research that supports what both of us are saying. I know I have read A LOT about protein consumption. I'm sure you have as well. It just shows how easily researchers can manipulate results by conducting studies in a certain way.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by thebigfert

Because... the whole point of the movie, from what I've heard, isn't about weight loss or body composition, but on total health... People who consume little to no meat live longer, don't get heart disease, have lower cancer rates, and are just generally more healthy... A very small part of this probably has something to do with vegetarians and vegans having far, far less cases of obesity than meat eaters, but it is mostly because the human body isn't built to process the large amounts of meat that people try to cram into our bodies. For example, true carnivores have mechanisms in their bodies to deal with the high amounts of cholesterol in a meat based diet. Humans, however, weren't designed to eat a mostly plant based diet, so when we consume high amounts of cholesterol, it builds up in our arteries, and the complications go on from there...

Many of these studies and fad diets have the same thing in common. If you eat less calories you will live longer. Atkins diet helped a lot of people because if you severely limit carbohydrates, it's pretty tough to overeat. Just as if you avoid all animal products and fill up on a ton of veggies, you'll probably have a tough time eating too many calories.

And all these fads try and manipulate data to make it seem like their particular fad is causing this. But it still boils down to the fact that these fad diets are about tricking you into lowering your calorie consumption. That in and of itself is the most important thing someone can do. Not some shitty pseudoscience claiming all these little things cause all our ailments. If people enjoy the diet and can follow through on it, then I'm all for it.

I think the film does offer good advice. We should be eating less animal products and more veggies. Our diets have gotten a bit out of whack. But it also mixes in a lot of pseudoscience and misrepresents the China Study to scare people into it.

It makes broad sweeping judgements on things that have many variables. Saying "we started eating more meat and thus we started seeing more diseases" is as open ended as saying "we started using home computers and thus we started seeing more diseases". There are a lot of factors in play for why the country has become unhealthy.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by thebigfert

Dairy cows on the other hand are pumped full of estrogen, so that they can start producing milk earlier, which in turn ends up in dairy products. This is why over the last couple of generations girls are starting to mature earlier and earlier than they ever have, among other problems..

LOL this is 100% not true, not even close to true.

[thebigfert]

Originally Posted by Danny

On the first part, I have read a lot of studies that say too much soy does increase estrogen levels. In fact I read a long one recently that advocated for soy, but still admitted that it does raise estrogen levels slightly. And I have read a lot about isolated whey and casein and have never read any research stating they raise estrogen levels (but if you have some, I would be interested in reading).

For the second paragraph, you are probably right that I don't need 300 grams a day (I actually average 240-300, but I had read a lot that stating it is good to take in 1 gram per pound of body weight, so I try for that and have had excellent results. Additionally, doing that keeps me content with my diet and helps me feel full throughout the day. If some of it is converted to energy then that is fine. And it's certainly not stored as fat. Before my bulking phase I had lost 35 pounds while consuming that amount of protein. But like you said, everyone is different. I didn't start with that amount, but have found that I have the best results with that. Regarding the negative impact of protein on your kidneys, liver etc... all the research I have read states that there is absolutely no negative health impacts on either of these as long as you drink enough water (with the 250-300 gram range I mentioned). I do know there are some people who take in 400+ grams a day and even I would admit that is way overboard.

I think a large issue is lumping in meat together. All these studies talk about animal products, but don't seem to be differentiating between the dozens of individual products. Yes, if you eat a lot of beef, pork, dark meet chicken, that is definitely bad for you. I exclusively eat white meat chicken, tuna and white meat turkey on a daily basis which has very little cholesterol. My cholesterol levels are good, at this point at least.

I have read a lot that says eating lean chicken, turkey and fish is good for you. None ofthe studies I have seen pointed out in this thread seem to specifically study the effects of specific animal products independently. If in the one study just talked about that extra 15% of animal products included whole milk, eggs with yolk, beef, etc... (as I would bet they did) then of course results would indicate that lowering animal products from 20% to 5% would be good

It sounds like you are in fantastic shape and and have a much better overall life after going with no meat, so well done. For me, having been significantly overweight much of my life, I am very happy with the results that I have had (even if I never reach 8% body fat). And again, this is something I've been dealing with since I was 6, so it's not like I don't have a body of work to measure the kind of results I have had. I think each person needs to do what works for them and I definitely don't think one thing works the same for everyone.

Soy does contain phytoestrogens, or isoflavens, which effect the way estrogen acts inside your body, but don't actually increase the levels of estrogen in your body. All the studies that I've read about soy and estrogen pretty much focus on this effect on women, and dismiss the effects on men. In particular, breast cancer has been linked to high levels of soy consumption, but I've seen studies say there is no connection. Even so, a vegan diet, as a meat eating diet, should strive to get its protein from as many different sources as possible, so I get a good chuck of mine from nuts, grains, veggies, legumes, etc, and of course some soy products... I read casein and whey and just assumed dairy products, so I'm not quite sure of the effects of isolated casein and whey or if hormones in dairy would get transferred in the process of isolating the protein from the milk, so I'll hafta plead ignorance on this one. I do assume that any animal products that aren't organically raised and drug free are going to have hormones in them that will increase your estrogen levels. I would assume protein powders would be the same, but I really don't know for sure...

That's awesome that you're seeing such good results with that high of a protein intake. My point is that its not entirely necessary to get all that protein to still build muscle and/or lose weight. I used to be firmly in the one gram per pound camp when I first got into fitness, and I got good results as well. But more recently I've found that I have more energy and better results without a diet that's skewed so heavily toward protein consumption. I figured out that if I can replace some of that protein with a raw veggie or fruit or something, I'm going to reap the benefits of that food, while still providing my body with enough protein to build and repair my muscles. At the end of the day, however, a calorie is a calorie, and if you're doing something to burn that calorie off, it doesn't matter where it came from...

Its definitely true that a lot of these studies lump meat as one category, and there's most certainly differing levels in the healthiness of certain meats. Especially, if you're choosing organically raised animals. Factory farms = hormones which messes up the natural balance of the chemicals in your body. I don't necessarily believe that meat is in and of itself is bad for you, but I do believe that the way we as a society produce and consume meat (and other animal products) is.

and I agree with everything in that last paragraph. Every single person reacts to different stimuli differently, and while the basic concepts of diet, fitness, and wellness its up to each person to figure out what works best for them and do it...

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Danny

And by the way, I think it is fascinating that there is research that supports what both of us are saying.

I don't find it fascinating at all, I find it par for the course. Wait 2 years, there will be an entire new set of guidelines on what we should or should not be eating more or less og.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Danny

All these fad diets are so interesting, it still comes down to calorie intake vs. calorie's burned. Veggie diets work for weight loss because it significantly reduces your calorie in take. But again, you would be far better off long term by eating more and exercising more. And again, for purposes of people on here, who are almost all men, there are differences between men and women's bodies. An all veggie diet is healthier for women because they can supplement their loss of protein with soy. That is not healthy for men.

Again this isn't about losing weight. Basically the idea that heart disease, cancer and a host of other maladies are avoidable without the consumption of animal proteins.

I say this as I watch my wife go through days with greatly reduced pain, days from having to walk with a cane when her mid 30's body is perfectly healthy, to days where she can walk 5 miles at a time with manageable pain. Until you watch the total transformation of a loved one for the better with no more than a dietary change you won't understand.

It all sounds good on paper. I have given little thought and care to what is actually in our food. I figured that it was really overblown, overhyped. I grew up a meat and potatoes person. But the science doesn't lie. The research is solid. Why does America have all these health problems? Why are our incidence rates for these diseases so high and rising? It may not answer all the questions but the stats do show some very strong relationships that cannot be denied.

Like Quick said at the outset:

-Politics of health care subsidies set aside for the moment, it's an almost scary notion that there might well be a fairly simple, readily/universally available, and practically dirt-cheap means to very nearly wipe out heart disease, and to at least substantially (if not massively) deplete the prevalence of many cancers and long-term diseases like diabetes, asthma, rheumatoid arthritis, and the like. Not a way to do it in Sweden or in rural China in the 70s, but right here and right now.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Again this isn't about losing weight. Basically the idea that heart disease, cancer and a host of other maladies are avoidable without the consumption of animal proteins.

I had a heart attack scare (I'm 40) a couple of weeks ago and have slowly reduced what meat I'm eating and I have to say that I am feeling better. Been on blood pressure medicine for the last two years and eating better has done far more to control it than the medicine ever has (201/110 when I went to the hospital, 144/78 when I went to the doctor last Thursday).

I'm also down to 290 from 302 two weeks ago.

EDIT: Still having a problem cutting down the sodium in my diet though. It seems like anything that is processed has tons of it.

[Desnudo]

I tried the paleo diet for a while. Too hard to stick to when your wife isn't also on it, but it was great. Felt my energy levels stabilize and definitely lost weight and gained definition (while continuing to work out). I noticed a huge difference in cutting out dairy and grains. Although I was probably also simply consuming fewer calories a day as well.

I don't believe it's simply # of calories in - # of calories out. Timing and type of food definitely changes the impact the quantity of calories has. For example, I will guarantee that you would gain more weight eating five big macs right before bed as opposed to when you first wake up in the morning.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I don't believe it's simply # of calories in - # of calories out. Timing and type of food definitely changes the impact the quantity of calories has. For example, I will guarantee that you would gain more weight eating five big macs right before bed as opposed to when you first wake up in the morning.

But your arteries are going to harden either way.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I tried the paleo diet for a while. Too hard to stick to when your wife isn't also on it, but it was great. Felt my energy levels stabilize and definitely lost weight and gained definition (while continuing to work out). I noticed a huge difference in cutting out dairy and grains. Although I was probably also simply consuming fewer calories a day as well.

I don't believe it's simply # of calories in - # of calories out. Timing and type of food definitely changes the impact the quantity of calories has. For example, I will guarantee that you would gain more weight eating five big macs right before bed as opposed to when you first wake up in the morning.

I was just thinking about the paleo diet in the context of this thread. I don't think it's simply net calories either, but I don't think it's as simple as meat is evil either. I'm sure excluding meat gets people thinking more about what they're putting in their body - they're probably not replacing meat with soda, for example. I think for most regular people, that's the most important thing, thinking about it, making actual decisions, avoiding the universally condemned kind of stuff. Paleos can get in heated arguments with vegans, and with vegetarians, and with the meat and potatoes in moderation people, and with everyone else, but if you're making conscious decisions based on your health and what works for you, you're already doing really well.

Edit: It's kind of like religion in a way. All the strict rules, etc, aren't necessarily critical on their own, it's how they change your perspective and actions. If I could do a study about people who can only eat foods starting with the letter D, or whatever, I'd predict some modest health and eating habit improvements as people are forced to think carefully about the food choices, what they're not getting nutrition wise, what they need to get, etc. It's not a perfect example, obviously some foods are considered universally healthier than others, I just think where get into debates about various healthy ways to eat, there's probably no perfect answer. And I'm certainly not ready to meat in the "universally bad" category.

[johnnyshaka]

Interesting thread.

Here's an interesting read...rather long, but interesting, nonetheless.

http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/for...-and-critique/

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Danny

Again, I have a chronic slow metabolism, but have built it up to a normal level with some of the things I have mentioned. Regular weight lifting, 6-7 meals throughout the day, high protein in take, plenty of vitamins, drinking plenty of water.

That's cool - I'd love to hear more about how you've managed to do that actually. My metabolism is slow...I'd love to boost it sensibly.

[QuikSand]

Just saw this thread for the first time. Have a bit to add, and lots and lots of links for anyone interested, will share in time.

I have been 100% plant based for about six months, and have been working on increasing the overall good health of my diet from "pretty good" to "very good" even further lately. I'm still making progress.

I'm the textbook case of the guy who needs to do this, or at least something like this. I'm in my early 40s, just lost my dad to heart disease, have had struggles with weight, and have small kids I'd really like to be around to see. And I have a very committed wife who wants to eat this way, and likes to cook together. I'm in about as good a position possible to do this.

So far, so good. I'm not the perfect spokesperson, but I *know* what I'm doing is better, and it might actually be very powerfully better for me and anyone else.

[QuikSand]

Among many observations, I will offer this -- I wouldn't really claim that weight loss is the primary motivation for switching to a plant-based whole-foods diet. It's about saving your life. In most cases, the dietary change will result in weight loss, but also a dramatic drop in heart disease contributors, blood pressure, and (it appears) both cancer and a variety of other diseases, many of which seem nearly untreatable otherwise. Losing weight may be an immediate goal, and it surely helps to sell more books, but the "movement" here is that there's a very compelling all-health argument behind the diet that goes beyond the counting of calories, fad diets, or other strictly weight loss driven approaches.

[QuikSand]

For those confused by the terminology, here's a quick guide:

"Plant based" is basically a less nutty way of saying vegan. No meat, poultry, fish, dairy, eggs or any other animal product. (There are subtle differences with "true believer" vegans who won't eat honey and so forth, but that's an aside here)

"Whole foods" is the premise that most foods are far better off consumed close to their natural state, as little processing as possible. In practice, this means (some variability here): use whole grains rather than processed "white" grains, no refined sugars, reduce as much as possible your use of oils (even "healthy" oils like olive oil), and in general stick to the fewer-ingredient, less-processed options whenever possible.

What is generally implied by the use of both phrases together (essentially the message of "Forks Over Knives") is that you eat a diet nearly exclusively derived from plants, and get rid of nearly all the processed foods and chemical additives. There are derivatives of this general direction from author to author and site to site, but the principle is the same -- the over-processed, over-animaled, over-advertised and over-subsidized American diet is based on a lie, appeals to our worst side, and is largely what's making us obese and sick as a country.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

That's cool - I'd love to hear more about how you've managed to do that actually. My metabolism is slow...I'd love to boost it sensibly.

Sorry if my earlier post came off sarcastic. I think many of us are sensitive regarding this issue and I was grumpy at the time.

The main things that have really worked for:

1. Eating 6-7 times throughout the day instead of 3. This includes eating less at each meal (holidays withstanding), but overall more. With each meal, I make sure to have a protein source, but veggies and nuts and the like are all great to include as well.

2. Regular weight lifting. While I've increased the intensity of my workouts as I became stronger, even lifting a few times a week for 30 minutes is huge. It increases your resting metabolic rate. Also, I have a set of Ironmaster dumbells with the extra weight additions and a super bench with attachments and I can get a good workout on any part of my body. To start out even just doing a combo of pushups and squats with your body weight can help a lot.

3. I kind of mentioned it, but protein consumption. I am sure you don't need what I do, but just making sure I have consistent protein sources throughout the day helps me a lot.

4. low carb count in the evening. You can have some with dinner, but assuming you eat 6 and go to bed at 11 or so, very little or no carbs at all after your dinner.

5. Limit junk food. And if you do have some of these, eat them in the morning or early afternoon. Working in a school they always have junk food around, but try to avoid eating it and or have a little if its early in the day. I also dont keep any junk food at all in the house. It's important you get your calories from quality foods.

6. Drink plenty of water, and no soda, juice, etc... I have an occasional diet soda which I know isn't good for me, but predominantly drink water or the 10 calories version of vitamin water if I want something flavored.

[Danny]

Oh the last thing I was going which helped a lot was I found a sport I really enjoyed to play that was good exercise. Before I hurt my ankle I played floorball twice a week for two hours each time. This alone probably burned a pound each week cause there is a lot of running and moving while playing. And while my ankle still isn't 100%, I started playing regularly again in November, though games are down for a few weeks during the holidays.

[BYU 14]

Ordered this book earlier today and will watch the movie tomorrow on Netflix. My diet is pretty good most of the time, but I like to weekend/holiday binge and that really kills me. My main fear has always been getting some of the essential vitamins and enough protein with this type of diet, without having to eat tons of Soy.

Currently I am pretty much back to the level of activity I was at pre Achilles tendon rupture last March. Strength training 4-5 times a week and 8+ miles on an eliptical trainer 5 times a week. Will probably resume Jiu Jitsu as well over the next couple of weeks, so obviously I want to maintain a good enough protein intake to feed my muscles.

Anybody doing this diet or something similar, but still using a whey protein supplement? I use Lean One from nutrition 53 for the aminos and various other things and was considering following this diet while keeping the Lean One as part of it.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by lungs

LOL this is 100% not true, not even close to true.

I googled this and the very first article that came up was a news item from the Harvard Gazette.

Hormones in milk can be dangerous

Cows are milked up to 300 times per year and are often pregnant while being milked. The farther along into pregnancy a cow is, the higher its estrogen levels are, and this is passed along through the milk. We get 60-80% of our estrogen from dairy sources.

Pregnant cows produce up to 33x more estrogen than non-pregnant cows.

The takeaway is that - even if lungs is right and cows are not being pumped full of estrogen, they still produce enough in their own right to have some cause for concern.