2012 NFL Regular Season - Week 4: The Focus Turns to Football Now

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Apathetic Lurker

Cowboys.com is now a gay dating site....lol

Article safe for public consumption

Cowboys.com is now a gay dating site | Shutdown Corner - Yahoo! Sports

Pretty funny.

The Dallas Cowboys can still be found at DallasCowboys.com, of course, but you'd assume that the team would have liked to own the shorter and seemingly more obvious domain name as well.

Not sure I agree with that part, though. Every time I've wanted to go to a team's web site, I've typed city+mascot.com, never just mascot.com

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by molson

But it does make you wonder where the "good" refs are, I'm still trying to figure that out. Where exactly are the refs that would satisfy people, why can't we find them? If the best ones people are desperate to get back are "mediocre", I think there's an issue with the the scale, it's unbalanced or something.

I'm on record as pushing for completely changing how the game is officiated. In this day and age of high definition slow-mo replays, we need far more use of technology to call the game.

[stevew]

The old refs being back is cool, but I still wish the league would better define what a catch is. What PI is. What an acceptable hit is. Any of these 15 yard penalties need to be renewable. More players need to be ejected.

But we also need to evaluate why it's ok for Carson Palmer and others to lead their receivers into brick walls. That's at least the second WR that Carson has contributed to potential paralysis that I remember. It's as bad as Flacco chucking it up to draw cheap PI. You can't outlaw downfield coverage strategies without limiting what the offenses should be able to do.

[RainMaker]

Also why teams don't leave in running backs and tight ends to block and allow their QBs to get clobbered left and right. Or throw the ball 50 times a game. Those big hits are on the offense more than they are on the defense. That big hit on Schaub they were running a screen to the left and basically let 2 guys in untouched.

[stevew]

What if you limited routes that can be run within 10 yards of the LOS? Nobody can enter the tackle box within a certain time from snap.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Looking forward to the discussion of how awesome the officiating is this week once the games are over: no one complaining about blown calls, how much faster paced the games are. Everyone is going to be all happy and rosy now, right? Right?

It's not just about being 100% accurate. Things I would expect to improve with the new refs:

1. Knowing the rules and being able to make accurate first calls that fit within them (ie, no 27 yard personal fouls, calling a touchback when half the downing player's body is in the end zone, knowing the definition of a simultaneous catch...).
2. Being comfortable with the speed of the game. The regular refs aren't trying to make the jump in speed and skill from Division III to the NFL. They should know where to look on most plays and understand that it is possible for a 230 pound safety to run with a skilled TE.
3. Knowing the process for having the best chance to get a big call right and when it's appropriate to huddle. IE, I doubt they huddle for 5 minutes on a false start and then make a rash decision on a questionable final touchdown with conflicting calls by two officials.
4. Understanding how to handle cheap shots and after the whistle plays. I doubt we will see no penalties for receivers de-cleated on routes 15 yards down the field and first attempts at cheap shots.

Even if the "real" refs only improve the accuracy of calls by 5% - getting the above list done will make football much more watchable and improve the feeling that it's fairly reffed.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by stevew

What if you limited routes that can be run within 10 yards of the LOS? Nobody can enter the tackle box within a certain time from snap.

Should we call it the "Five Mississippi" Rule?

SI

[stevew]

We can't preach player safety an allow the offenses to act in an unsafe manner. Isolate the "dangerous" plays and address them from both sides. Maybe you only allow 4 downfield receivers. I dunno. But I think you could reduce a ton of danger without fundamentally screwing up the game.

[Passacaglia]

Nice -- since the Bears are on Monday Night, I'll get to see the Lions on TV, woot!

[stevew]

Sak's guy has the whistle tonight. Steretore's a pretty good ref iirc. Calls won't matter though, Baltimore should win by 14

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by stevew

We can't preach player safety an allow the offenses to act in an unsafe manner. Isolate the "dangerous" plays and address them from both sides. Maybe you only allow 4 downfield receivers. I dunno. But I think you could reduce a ton of danger without fundamentally screwing up the game.

League doesn't give a shit about player safety though.

[Arles]

The league cares just enough about player safety to CYA on future lawsuits. Outside of that, Rainmaker is right. If Goodell and the owners weren't looking at potential concussion lawsuits from ex-players, they would not have made the rule changes they did. Concussions were just as big a problem 10 years ago - but the NFL didn't care because no one was suing them over it.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Arles

The league cares just enough about player safety to CYA on future lawsuits. Outside of that, Rainmaker is right. If Goodell and the owners weren't looking at potential concussion lawsuits from ex-players, they would not have made the rule changes they did. Concussions were just as big a problem 10 years ago - but the NFL didn't care because no one was suing them over it.

We have a winner. The NFL cares about player safety only as much as it keeps them out of the courthouse.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by stevew

Sak's guy has the whistle tonight. Steretore's a pretty good ref iirc. Calls won't matter though, Baltimore should win by 14

When I did my study on officiating four years ago, Steretore led the league by a wide margin in "discretionary" calls like pass interference. Schuster, the umpire on his crew, was among the lowest in the league in making calls against the line.

Coaches know far more than I do about these things, but it wouldn't surprise me to see more passing offense tonight than you'd expect from this matchup.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Arles

The league cares just enough about player safety to CYA on future lawsuits. Outside of that, Rainmaker is right. If Goodell and the owners weren't looking at potential concussion lawsuits from ex-players, they would not have made the rule changes they did. Concussions were just as big a problem 10 years ago - but the NFL didn't care because no one was suing them over it.

They weren't being sued, but the players, fans, and sponsors weren't complaining either. Do people really think now they should have cracked down in that environment? They certainly weren't saying so at the time. For decades and decades sports injury lawsuits went nowhere because players consented to participate in the sports. And that's how society generally viewed it as well.

[RainMaker]

They aren't cracking down. They are putting teams into more Thursday night games and are still pushing an 18 game season. These are far more dangerous than some dumb bounties.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They aren't cracking down. They are putting teams into more Thursday night games and are still pushing an 18 game season. These are far more dangerous than some dumb bounties.

A league with fewer neck injuries and QB injuries and less legal liability is unquestionably better for them. People can disagree how to best accomplish that, while balancing things with money and quality of play, but I'm not sure exactly what your point is. You want no Thursday games, a 16-game schedule (or shorter?), and no punishment for bounties? That's one way to approach it, but it's not necessarily the only way.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

A league with fewer neck injuries and QB injuries and less legal liability is unquestionably better for them. People can disagree how to best accomplish that, while balancing things with money and quality of play, but I'm not sure exactly what your point is. You want no Thursday games, a 16-game schedule (or shorter?), and no punishment for bounties? That's one way to approach it, but it's not necessarily the only way.

I just think they are trying to make the league more dangerous. We were talking about ways to make it safer and I was just saying that they don't really care about that.

[Sun Tzu]

I think the thing we should all be watching out for this weekend is which players will be wearing MLB gear before/after games.

Atrocity.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

When I did my study on officiating four years ago, Steretore led the league by a wide margin in "discretionary" calls like pass interference. Schuster, the umpire on his crew, was among the lowest in the league in making calls against the line.

Coaches know far more than I do about these things, but it wouldn't surprise me to see more passing offense tonight than you'd expect from this matchup.

I understand where you are coming from but you will never see Gene throw an OPI or DPI from the Referee position. I know he has had the same Side Judge for 3 years now, but the BJ and FJ have moved around. So I don't think that saying that Steratore himself leads the league is quite accurate, however, I think I understand where you are coming from.

Personally I think he is on the game because of his demanour and respect he gets from the players. I will probably be eating my words come 11pm tonight, but I don't see a game getting out of hand on his watch. He really preaches Game Management to us...how to efficiently administer penalties, dead ball officiate, and keep the game flowing.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I just think they are trying to make the league more dangerous. We were talking about ways to make it safer and I was just saying that they don't really care about that.

You don't think they care about legal liability and injuries to star players?

Not every single decision someone makes can be 100% related to safety. If it was, you'd never leave the house. If you can increase revenue $x billion by increasing the amount of on-field time during the regular season by 12.5%, and increasing the odds of an on-field fatality/paralysis by about that amount, that might be a tricky risk/reward call. But if you can mitigate that 12.5% risk by changing the rules, increasing the roster sizes, cutting back on practice time, reducing the amount of kickoff returns, then maybe it's worth it. Same with Thursday nigh games, or expanding the playoffs, or expanding the number of teams. Everything has a risk. Every game itself carries some risk.

I just don't really get this "they don't care about safety" or "they don't care about safety except for lawsuits." What difference does it make? Unless you're saying they should have made sweeping changes back in the 80s when nobody was calling for them, just because should have felt like it was the right thing to do. They do have a complicated problem now, with issues of liability, public perception, risk of on-field fatalities and paralysis, and I think they're at least trying to address those things. Statistically, probably the best thing they did was reduce the amount of kickoff returns. It wasn't popular with the fans, but that's the most dangerous play there is, and (last I checked) there's fewer of those plays now.

[Logan]

I'm no lawyer, but if the NFL was trying to employ "CYA" rules to improve player safety in response to lawsuits they are currently facing, wouldn't changing the practices now (in response to then) actually hurt their case?

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by stevew

The old refs being back is cool, but I still wish the league would better define what a catch is. What PI is. What an acceptable hit is. Any of these 15 yard penalties need to be renewable. More players need to be ejected.

But we also need to evaluate why it's ok for Carson Palmer and others to lead their receivers into brick walls. That's at least the second WR that Carson has contributed to potential paralysis that I remember. It's as bad as Flacco chucking it up to draw cheap PI. You can't outlaw downfield coverage strategies without limiting what the offenses should be able to do.

Also why teams don't leave in running backs and tight ends to block and allow their QBs to get clobbered left and right. Or throw the ball 50 times a game. Those big hits are on the offense more than they are on the defense. That big hit on Schaub they were running a screen to the left and basically let 2 guys in untouched.

Hmmm.... I thought they were playing tackle football, not flag football...

[molson]

Originally Posted by Logan

I'm no lawyer, but if the NFL was trying to employ "CYA" rules to improve player safety in response to lawsuits they are currently facing, wouldn't changing the practices now (in response to then) actually hurt their case?

I don't know how it would work in something as complicated as the concussion suits, but generally, remedial measures taken after the fact are inadmissible at a civil trial so people aren't discouraged from improving things. Like, if a building owner is sued because someone falls down the stairs, we want them to be able both fix the stairs, and defend themselves in the lawsuit, so evidence that they fixed the stairs afterwards would not inadmissible.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Logan

I'm no lawyer, but if the NFL was trying to employ "CYA" rules to improve player safety in response to lawsuits they are currently facing, wouldn't changing the practices now (in response to then) actually hurt their case?

I think what the NFL is trying to do is to say to the lawsuits "we believe this is a serious issue and have gone above and beyond the normal responsibility to show this". It's not "admitting they were wrong", it's more trying to show they are doing more than they are required to do.

Either way, there's no way a league with a primary concern about player safety can:

1. Make teams play a Sunday night game and then a Thursday game the next week.
2. Employ replacement refs for 8+ weeks when it was apparent the replacement refs were not policing after the play activity and leading to more cheap shots on other players.
3. Continue to push for an 18 game schedule without any change to roster restrictions or player "minute limits".

It's a bit of a farce to suspend Payton for the year for a bounty system (that did not result in any known injuries) that may or may not have been employed, but there's no problem with using two months of replacement refs and adding Thursday night games every week where 2 teams often have less than 4 full days to recoup.

Just imagine if Houston was playing tonight and Schaub took a season ending hit to the head because his injury hadn't fully healed from Sunday. Forcing the team to make a quick decision on injured players to keep competitive balance is much more dangerous than whether or not a few Saints players had bonuses for if they could hit someone a little harder than normal.

[Logan]

Thanks.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I understand where you are coming from but you will never see Gene throw an OPI or DPI from the Referee position. I know he has had the same Side Judge for 3 years now, but the BJ and FJ have moved around. So I don't think that saying that Steratore himself leads the league is quite accurate, however, I think I understand where you are coming from.

Personally I think he is on the game because of his demanour and respect he gets from the players. I will probably be eating my words come 11pm tonight, but I don't see a game getting out of hand on his watch. He really preaches Game Management to us...how to efficiently administer penalties, dead ball officiate, and keep the game flowing.

Right. I made that clear in my referee study. I can't separate who made individual calls - it's probably closest with the Umpire. When Steretore was new to the position, the number of PI calls from his crew was out of line with the rest of the league, but sample sizes are difficult to establish when you're dealing with different judges.

[Buccaneer]

I read the article on Patriots releasing Winslow Jr. and I think I've become a fan of Schiano, despite my strong dislike for Rutgers. Probably doesn't mean I'll become a Bucs fan again but I do like what he's doing in Tampa.

And although the Bucs shipped Winslow to the Pacific Northwest because he didn't fit new coach Greg Schiano's team-first style,

Players like Winslow should not be even be in the league, imo.

[Sun Tzu]

What does everybody drink when they watch the game? Do you have a traditional beverage of choice, or do you just drink whatever your wife/hubby/gf/bf/subby brings you?

[Sun Tzu]

When I'm watching the Niners, I only drink scotch. When I'm watching any other team, I drink pretty much whatever. If it's an early game, it might be a mimosa. If it's an afternoon game, it might be a cold brewsky. If it's an evening game, it might be a vodka martini.

Brews: Sapporo, Sam Adams Oktoberfest, Bass

[Vince, Pt. II]

I usually only drink scotch on special occasions...mostly because I have expensive taste when it comes to scotch. For me at football time, it's a Bloody Mary or a Bruschi. Typically Sierra Nevada, Bass or Newcastle. Black and Tan if I'm feeling frisky.

[mckerney]

If I'm buying beer for a game I'd usually go for either Dales Pale Ale, Bells Two Hearted or something from Summit or Surly.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by stevew

Sak's guy has the whistle tonight. Steretore's a pretty good ref iirc. Calls won't matter though, Baltimore should win by 14

I kinda hope the game comes down to a controvercial Hail Mary pass.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

We have a winner. The NFL cares about player safety only as much as it keeps them out of the courthouse.

And fans don't care either as long as they can ooh-ahh and high five whenever a highlight film/Madden hit has been made.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by Arles

It's not just about being 100% accurate. Things I would expect to improve with the new refs:

1. Knowing the rules and being able to make accurate first calls that fit within them (ie, no 27 yard personal fouls, calling a touchback when half the downing player's body is in the end zone, knowing the definition of a simultaneous catch...).
2. Being comfortable with the speed of the game. The regular refs aren't trying to make the jump in speed and skill from Division III to the NFL. They should know where to look on most plays and understand that it is possible for a 230 pound safety to run with a skilled TE.
3. Knowing the process for having the best chance to get a big call right and when it's appropriate to huddle. IE, I doubt they huddle for 5 minutes on a false start and then make a rash decision on a questionable final touchdown with conflicting calls by two officials.
4. Understanding how to handle cheap shots and after the whistle plays. I doubt we will see no penalties for receivers de-cleated on routes 15 yards down the field and first attempts at cheap shots.

Even if the "real" refs only improve the accuracy of calls by 5% - getting the above list done will make football much more watchable and improve the feeling that it's fairly reffed.

Yeah, but can they get the coin toss right 100% of the time? How quickly we forget............

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

We have a winner. The NFL cares about player safety only as much as it keeps them out of the courthouse.

Same with the players. When they start wearing all appropriate padding and picking helmets for safety instead of looks, I'll listen to their crying.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Same with the players. When they start wearing all appropriate padding and picking helmets for safety instead of looks, I'll listen to their crying.

+1

[spleen1015]

Holy shit.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Holy shit.

...

[CleBrownsfan]

That did not look good..


Edit: My kids are never playing this sport!

[Logan]

It's really getting to the point where I don't know if I can watch this stuff anymore. Jesus.

[cschex]

For the first couple of second he was on the ground it didn't look like he was breathing. Looks like he got knocked out

[bhlloy]

Fuck fuck fuck that looked bad

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by Logan

It's really getting to the point where I don't know if I can watch this stuff anymore. Jesus.

Yea. I remember somebody posting in the past that the NFL we all know and love today will not be around in the next decade or two due to the increasing violence of the game. I hate to think it will happen but i think it is very plausible to think it is only a matter of time before somebody passes away on the field.

[stevew]

What happened

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Yea. I remember somebody posting in the past that the NFL we all know and love today will not be around in the next decade or two due to the increasing violence of the game. I hate to think it will happen but i think it is very plausible to think it is only a matter of time before somebody passes away on the field.

funny cause off the field it is responsible for a lot and no one gives a crap.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by stevew

What happened

Joshua Cribbs took a bad hit to he head. His helmet flew off, his head bounced off the carpet and he got KO'd.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Yea. I remember somebody posting in the past that the NFL we all know and love today will not be around in the next decade or two due to the increasing violence of the game. I hate to think it will happen but i think it is very plausible to think it is only a matter of time before somebody passes away on the field.

I used to think this was the case as well. Then I think about the 1000s of people who die every year because they smoked and that's still legal because of how much money is involved.

NFL makes 9 billion a year or some crazy ass amount like that.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

funny cause off the field it is responsible for a lot and no one gives a crap.

Very true

[stevew]

Fuck

I wish Cribbs would hang the cleats up. He's a good guy, I think he could pretty much do anything He wants post football. Off the charts intangibles.