NCAA 09 East Coast League: Pick teams now, or wait?

DeToxRox · 06-19-2008, 03:00 PM

We've settled up on conferences, as the ACC, SEC and Big East won rather unanimously, therefore, we are at a point where we can pick teams now, before the game is out, and you're stuck with your choice, one you may not enjoy, or we wait until the game comes out, so people can test out teams and go from there.

The other option is we pick now, and if someone decides they do not like their team, they can choose an unclaimed team, but they must be in the same conference as their original squad.

So vote now, and we'll go from there.

So people know, EF27 will run the random number generator to determine the draft order in our league, and I will do likewise for the WCL.

Kodos · 06-19-2008, 03:04 PM

That's the NOFL to you, bub!

DeToxRox · 06-19-2008, 03:09 PM

I see you're from CT, Kodos.

SELLOUT

Kodos · 06-19-2008, 03:23 PM

Only recently.

Galaxy · 06-19-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

So people know, EF27 will run the random number generator to determine the draft order in our league, and I will do likewise for the WCL.

Did you two find a generator? How will that work?

BigDPW · 06-19-2008, 03:53 PM

I think we gain little from picking teams now so I voted to wait until the game comes out... However I don't have any strong feelings about waiting if people want to move forward now.

I think the main question is how long we wait to start the league after the game comes out... Do we wait for named rosters (I hope so)...

DeToxRox · 06-19-2008, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDPW

I think we gain little from picking teams now so I voted to wait until the game comes out... However I don't have any strong feelings about waiting if people want to move forward now.

I think the main question is how long we wait to start the league after the game comes out... Do we wait for named rosters (I hope so)...

I say yes to waiting for rosters. As far as how long after the game comes out? I'd like to say a week or two after. No later then August 1.

Kodos · 06-19-2008, 04:04 PM

Usually, the rosters come out pretty quickly. Sometimes even before the game is released.

Ironhead · 06-19-2008, 05:01 PM

I say wait until the game comes out.

Logan · 06-19-2008, 06:08 PM

I'm cool with waiting too.

Logan · 06-19-2008, 06:20 PM

Have we given any thought to figuring out a way where people would be able to "call" the team they want? Say everyone PMs DeTox their #1 choice (who PMs someone else his choice). If no one matches your pick, you get the team. If there's a match, that team remains unassigned and everyone who tried selecting that team goes into the draft. So maybe we end up with 9 people drafting teams and 3 teams off the board already. And chances are those 3 teams won't necessarily be the best teams available, since only one person wanted them.

Just throwing it out there...feel free to shoot it down. I'm obviously good with the full draft though.

BigDPW · 06-19-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan

Have we given any thought to figuring out a way where people would be able to "call" the team they want? Say everyone PMs DeTox their #1 choice (who PMs someone else his choice). If no one matches your pick, you get the team. If there's a match, that team remains unassigned and everyone who tried selecting that team goes into the draft. So maybe we end up with 9 people drafting teams and 3 teams off the board already. And chances are those 3 teams won't necessarily be the best teams available, since only one person wanted them.

Just throwing it out there...feel free to shoot it down. I'm obviously good with the full draft though.

Not a bad idea... But I would tweak it to say that if any team is wanted by more than one person we should just hold a draft for all teams...

DeToxRox · 06-19-2008, 10:36 PM

I am all for Logan's idea.

Mike1409 · 06-20-2008, 09:25 AM

I voted to wait.

But one benefit of picking now, is that according to everything I have read, depth charts/players equipment can be adjusted offline and will work online in the dynasty.

So if your teams starters do not match your play style you can make those adjustments before and during the season.

RedKingGold · 06-20-2008, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan

Have we given any thought to figuring out a way where people would be able to "call" the team they want? Say everyone PMs DeTox their #1 choice (who PMs someone else his choice). If no one matches your pick, you get the team. If there's a match, that team remains unassigned and everyone who tried selecting that team goes into the draft. So maybe we end up with 9 people drafting teams and 3 teams off the board already. And chances are those 3 teams won't necessarily be the best teams available, since only one person wanted them.

Just throwing it out there...feel free to shoot it down. I'm obviously good with the full draft though.

Good idea. I want Rutgers.

JetsIn06 · 06-20-2008, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Good idea. I want Rutgers.

You ass. I want Rutgers!

DeToxRox · 06-20-2008, 10:20 AM

If we do it Logan's way, we can probably start it any time as the guys who know what team's they covet can get them, then we can draft later for guys who all picked similiar teams so they have a chance to figure out potential fall back plans. Just a thought.

Mike1409 · 06-20-2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

If we do it Logan's way, we can probably start it any time as the guys who know what team's they covet can get them, then we can draft later for guys who all picked similiar teams so they have a chance to figure out potential fall back plans. Just a thought.

I agree with that, but with only using 3 conferences, it might not be as easy as picking just your team.

DeToxRox · 06-20-2008, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike1409

I agree with that, but with only using 3 conferences, it might not be as easy as picking just your team.

I do agree there. We'll need a think tank to figure this out.

Mike1409 · 06-20-2008, 03:34 PM

Maybe we could pick teams on the conference basis i.e. I want only team A in the big east, and if i cant get them I don't want to be in that conference. Or I want team A in the big east but I want to be in the Big East no matter which team I get?

Logan · 06-20-2008, 04:43 PM

Good luck to anyone who takes Rutgers. No one knows their weaknesses and how they can be beat more than me

.

Logan · 06-20-2008, 04:52 PM

Do you guys think there would be any value to selecting our teams now, so when the game comes out, you have a focus on what team to play a few games with to see if you like them (as opposed to a group of 16 teams that you may end up with)?

I guess that's my long way of saying I'm changing my vote from option 2 to option 3.

Grammaticus · 06-21-2008, 11:15 AM

Isn't there a limit to a max of 4 of us being in one conference too?

DeToxRox · 06-21-2008, 12:30 PM

Each conference has to have 4 human teams, so doing it Logan's way may have it's problems. A draft is probably the only way to go about it.

What I am going to suggest is we do a preliminary draft now. Guys get their teams and then the game comes out. We have a week or two before the league starts for people to use their teams. We then go through a roll call with the owners to see if they want to stick it out with their team. Those who do not will go back into a draft with the remaining teams.

Mike1409 · 06-21-2008, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Each conference has to have 4 human teams, so doing it Logan's way may have it's problems. A draft is probably the only way to go about it.

What I am going to suggest is we do a preliminary draft now. Guys get their teams and then the game comes out. We have a week or two before the league starts for people to use their teams. We then go through a roll call with the owners to see if they want to stick it out with their team. Those who do not will go back into a draft with the remaining teams.

I agree with this in principle, but there could be a situation where a player doesn't like his team and doesn't have any option to change due to conference or team limitations such as I have the 4th SEC team I have to take an SEC team. I do not have a preferrence to a specific team but I do have a few of the available teams that I do not want based on RL rivalries and locations.

I am curious as to how the preliminary draft would fall. I might also then be open to the idea of having 4 conferences with 3 teams per.

DeToxRox · 06-21-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike1409

I agree with this in principle, but there could be a situation where a player doesn't like his team and doesn't have any option to change due to conference or team limitations such as I have the 4th SEC team I have to take an SEC team. I do not have a preferrence to a specific team but I do have a few of the available teams that I do not want based on RL rivalries and locations.

I am curious as to how the preliminary draft would fall. I might also then be open to the idea of having 4 conferences with 3 teams per.

4 three team leagues might work best, I do agree. Only because the more options the better. We'll see what everyone thinks.

DeToxRox · 06-21-2008, 01:04 PM

Dola, perhaps we do a preliminary draft with three 4 team leagues and see how it goes. If people have a problem with their teams and options are slim, we then re-open the vote on the # of conferences and re-draft (but allowing people happy with their teams to keep them)

Mike1409 · 06-21-2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Dola, perhaps we do a preliminary draft with three 4 team leagues and see how it goes. If people have a problem with their teams and options are slim, we then re-open the vote on the # of conferences and re-draft (but allowing people happy with their teams to keep them)

That sounds great. Lets do a draft!!!

DeToxRox · 06-22-2008, 10:21 AM

Bumpity bump

RedKingGold · 06-22-2008, 11:38 AM

I'm down for a preliminary draft.

I don't really foresee that many problems between owners among teams we select (conferences maybe)....

DeToxRox · 06-22-2008, 12:09 PM

We'll see if a couple other guys are down with that, and if so, we'll do it pretty quick coming up.

Mike1409 · 06-22-2008, 02:24 PM

I'm down!

Logan · 06-22-2008, 03:35 PM

Also in for an early draft. And Detox, don't worry about the PMs...it's a good idea cause I forget to stop by here every now and then.

Mike1409 · 06-22-2008, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

ACC:

Florida State - 94
Clemson - 89
Miami - 86
Virginia Tech - 84
Georgia Tech - 81
Maryland - 81
---------------------
Virginia - 79
North Carolina - 79
Boston College - 77
Wake Forest - 77
NC State - 77
Duke - 77

Big East:

Cincinnati - 84
West Virginia - 84
---------------------
USF - 79
Rutgers - 79
Pittsburgh - 79
Louisville - 79
Connecticut - 74
Syracuse - 72

SEC:

Georgia - 99
Florida - 94
LSU - 91
Tennessee - 89
South Carolina - 89
Auburn - 84
Ole Miss - 84
Alabama - 84
---------------------
Arkansas - 79
Kentucky - 77
Mississippi State - 74
Vanderbilt - 72

Here are the teams we have to choose from. 14 teams for 12 spots.

Grammaticus · 06-22-2008, 04:39 PM

I'm okay with an early draft.

I say add another conference though.

DeToxRox · 06-22-2008, 04:51 PM

If most people are fine, we'll go open up the vote for a fourth conference. I think it'll wind up being the Big 12 judging on votes so far, but I am all for it. The more options the better.

KWhit · 06-22-2008, 06:15 PM

I voted for 4 conferences in the beginning, so I'd be up for that.

And a prelim draft would be fine by me.

JetsIn06 · 06-22-2008, 07:52 PM

I'm fine with whatever the masses think is a good idea.

Eaglesfan27 · 06-22-2008, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Did you two find a generator? How will that work?

Random.org has a variety of random number generators that claim to be more random than usual computer random number generators which aren't really random. I'm thinking that assigning each person position 1 to 12 based on their screen name arranged alphabetically and then generating 12 random numbers should work well. Low number to high number to generate the order. You can set the generator from 1 to whatever. I think 1 to 1000 would work well.

wade moore · 07-01-2008, 07:54 AM

Ok.

I'm BAFFLED right now.

How the hell does this vote mean we pick teams now? I see a 7-5 vote in favor of waiting.

Why do we even vote for shit for this league?

We vote for # conferences and vote for 3. Somehow someone decides we're magically going to 4, and we just do. (keep in mind I voted for 4 initially).

We vote for whether to pick teams now and 5 votes of 12 people means of course - let's draft now!

Seriously.

What the fuck?

Logan · 07-01-2008, 08:22 AM

I deleted my original response as it sounded harsher than I meant...

But note how the thread progressed. I think I originally threw out the idea of doing it now so we could "focus" on a team when the game came out, and others came up with similar ideas and other points to support it. I came out and said I would like to do an early draft, after initially voting to wait. A quick look shows at least one, Mike, did the same thing. So your 7-5 vote in favor of waiting becomes a 7-5 vote in favor of drafting now.

BigDPW · 07-01-2008, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore

Ok.

I'm BAFFLED right now.

How the hell does this vote mean we pick teams now? I see a 7-5 vote in favor of waiting.

Why do we even vote for shit for this league?

We vote for # conferences and vote for 3. Somehow someone decides we're magically going to 4, and we just do. (keep in mind I voted for 4 initially).

We vote for whether to pick teams now and 5 votes of 12 people means of course - let's draft now!

Seriously.

What the fuck?

Not the words I would have chosen to make the same point but I am a little baffled by the way we have gone from 3 conferences to 4 without anyone really favoring the 4 conference idea other than the commish?

That being said I just wanna get this league up and running and have a good time with it... I hope we can keep a solid group of guys interested. The NOFL seems to really be clicking already and alot of the guys I am used to playing online with in the past are in that league (EF27 and Kodos mostly)...

DeToxRox · 07-01-2008, 02:56 PM

What happened was the evolution of the people voting. People have taken it stride. Yes it has been somewhat clusterfucky but it happens. Ideas in theory sounded better then they were headed, and the other league's flow with a similiar structure helped change people's minds.

Everything I can change. This is all preliminary. When the game comes out everything is under review. But I have been PM'ing everyone with everything along the way so I'd assume you'd know about it.

Kodos · 07-01-2008, 03:09 PM

EVERYTHING IS SET IN STONE!

Ironhead · 07-01-2008, 05:25 PM

For what it is worth I also originally thought it would be crazy to pick a team without playing with them first and voted to wait. But the more I thought about it, and quite frankly the more the league seemed to be losing some steam, I wanted to go ahead and pick.

Sun Tzu · 07-01-2008, 05:36 PM

If this were a pro game, I'd understand if you were absolutely set on wanting to play with a team before choosing...some guys are locked in to long term contracts, and just in general it's hard to change the face of a pro football team in a short amount of time. Since this is college, it shouldn't make that much of a difference. You can completely change your team around to play the kind of style you like to play in just 2 seasons.

wade moore · 07-02-2008, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

What happened was the evolution of the people voting. People have taken it stride. Yes it has been somewhat clusterfucky but it happens. Ideas in theory sounded better then they were headed, and the other league's flow with a similiar structure helped change people's minds.

Everything I can change. This is all preliminary. When the game comes out everything is under review. But I have been PM'ing everyone with everything along the way so I'd assume you'd know about it.

Yeah, I saw the PM's about voting, etc.

I'm just not understanding why we bothered voting.

It's a lot harder to undo something once it is done than it is to add it in later. There's no way we go back on this draft now. People who have their teams have them, no way they are ok with giving them up.

Again, just not understanding why we bothered voting.

Logan · 07-02-2008, 12:40 PM

We did vote, and as I said, don't go by the results up top as they changed. It was (at least) 7-5 in favor of going now.

Mike1409 · 07-02-2008, 02:48 PM

We did vote and then WE discussed the problems and limitations and ammended the rules.

wade moore · 07-02-2008, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan

We did vote, and as I said, don't go by the results up top as they changed. It was (at least) 7-5 in favor of going now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike1409

We did vote and then WE discussed the problems and limitations and ammended the rules.

If we means a limited number of people, then sure - I agree.

I know I'm being a pain in the ass and pissing people off here, but I just have serious problems if this is how we are starting - by the majority voting for something and then a small minority discussing it and deciding to change it.

Not a good sign for the future.

View Poll Results: When is the best time to draft?
Right f'ing now!	2	16.67%
Let's wait for the game to come out	7	58.33%
We draft now but have the ability to change teams (within certian guidelines) later	3	25.00%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

06-19-2008, 03:04 PM	#2
Kodos Resident Alien Join Date: Jun 2001	That's the NOFL to you, bub! __________________ Author of The Bill Gates Challenge, as well as other groundbreaking dynasties.

06-19-2008, 03:23 PM	#4
Kodos Resident Alien Join Date: Jun 2001	Only recently. __________________ Author of The Bill Gates Challenge, as well as other groundbreaking dynasties.

06-19-2008, 04:04 PM	#8
Kodos Resident Alien Join Date: Jun 2001	Usually, the rosters come out pretty quickly. Sometimes even before the game is released. __________________ Author of The Bill Gates Challenge, as well as other groundbreaking dynasties.

06-19-2008, 06:20 PM	#11
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	Have we given any thought to figuring out a way where people would be able to "call" the team they want? Say everyone PMs DeTox their #1 choice (who PMs someone else his choice). If no one matches your pick, you get the team. If there's a match, that team remains unassigned and everyone who tried selecting that team goes into the draft. So maybe we end up with 9 people drafting teams and 3 teams off the board already. And chances are those 3 teams won't necessarily be the best teams available, since only one person wanted them. Just throwing it out there...feel free to shoot it down. I'm obviously good with the full draft though. Last edited by Logan : 06-19-2008 at 06:21 PM.

06-19-2008, 03:09 PM	#3
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	I see you're from CT, Kodos. SELLOUT

06-19-2008, 03:53 PM	#6
BigDPW College Prospect Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Raleigh, NC	I think we gain little from picking teams now so I voted to wait until the game comes out... However I don't have any strong feelings about waiting if people want to move forward now. I think the main question is how long we wait to start the league after the game comes out... Do we wait for named rosters (I hope so)...

06-19-2008, 05:01 PM	#9
Ironhead College Prospect Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Barnegat, NJ	I say wait until the game comes out.

06-19-2008, 06:08 PM	#10
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	I'm cool with waiting too.

06-19-2008, 10:36 PM	#13
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	I am all for Logan's idea.

06-20-2008, 09:25 AM	#14
Mike1409 High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: St. Pete, FL	I voted to wait. But one benefit of picking now, is that according to everything I have read, depth charts/players equipment can be adjusted offline and will work online in the dynasty. So if your teams starters do not match your play style you can make those adjustments before and during the season.

06-20-2008, 10:20 AM	#17
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	If we do it Logan's way, we can probably start it any time as the guys who know what team's they covet can get them, then we can draft later for guys who all picked similiar teams so they have a chance to figure out potential fall back plans. Just a thought. Last edited by DeToxRox : 06-20-2008 at 10:22 AM.

06-20-2008, 03:34 PM	#20
Mike1409 High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: St. Pete, FL	Maybe we could pick teams on the conference basis i.e. I want only team A in the big east, and if i cant get them I don't want to be in that conference. Or I want team A in the big east but I want to be in the Big East no matter which team I get?

06-20-2008, 04:43 PM	#21
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	Good luck to anyone who takes Rutgers. No one knows their weaknesses and how they can be beat more than me .

06-20-2008, 04:52 PM	#22
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	Do you guys think there would be any value to selecting our teams now, so when the game comes out, you have a focus on what team to play a few games with to see if you like them (as opposed to a group of 16 teams that you may end up with)? I guess that's my long way of saying I'm changing my vote from option 2 to option 3. Last edited by Logan : 06-20-2008 at 04:52 PM.

06-21-2008, 11:15 AM	#23
Grammaticus Pro Rookie Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Tennessee	Isn't there a limit to a max of 4 of us being in one conference too?

06-21-2008, 12:30 PM	#24
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	Each conference has to have 4 human teams, so doing it Logan's way may have it's problems. A draft is probably the only way to go about it. What I am going to suggest is we do a preliminary draft now. Guys get their teams and then the game comes out. We have a week or two before the league starts for people to use their teams. We then go through a roll call with the owners to see if they want to stick it out with their team. Those who do not will go back into a draft with the remaining teams.

06-21-2008, 01:04 PM	#27
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	Dola, perhaps we do a preliminary draft with three 4 team leagues and see how it goes. If people have a problem with their teams and options are slim, we then re-open the vote on the # of conferences and re-draft (but allowing people happy with their teams to keep them)

06-22-2008, 10:21 AM	#29
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	Bumpity bump

06-22-2008, 11:38 AM	#30
RedKingGold College Starter Join Date: Oct 2002	I'm down for a preliminary draft. I don't really foresee that many problems between owners among teams we select (conferences maybe)....

06-22-2008, 12:09 PM	#31
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	We'll see if a couple other guys are down with that, and if so, we'll do it pretty quick coming up.

06-22-2008, 02:24 PM	#32
Mike1409 High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: St. Pete, FL	I'm down!

06-22-2008, 03:35 PM	#33
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	Also in for an early draft. And Detox, don't worry about the PMs...it's a good idea cause I forget to stop by here every now and then.

06-22-2008, 04:39 PM	#35
Grammaticus Pro Rookie Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Tennessee	I'm okay with an early draft. I say add another conference though.

06-22-2008, 04:51 PM	#36
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	If most people are fine, we'll go open up the vote for a fourth conference. I think it'll wind up being the Big 12 judging on votes so far, but I am all for it. The more options the better.

06-22-2008, 06:15 PM	#37
KWhit Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Conyers GA	I voted for 4 conferences in the beginning, so I'd be up for that. And a prelim draft would be fine by me.

06-22-2008, 07:52 PM	#38
JetsIn06 Pro Rookie Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Rahway, NJ	I'm fine with whatever the masses think is a good idea.

07-01-2008, 08:22 AM	#41
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	I deleted my original response as it sounded harsher than I meant... But note how the thread progressed. I think I originally threw out the idea of doing it now so we could "focus" on a team when the game came out, and others came up with similar ideas and other points to support it. I came out and said I would like to do an early draft, after initially voting to wait. A quick look shows at least one, Mike, did the same thing. So your 7-5 vote in favor of waiting becomes a 7-5 vote in favor of drafting now. Last edited by Logan : 07-01-2008 at 08:31 AM.

07-01-2008, 02:56 PM	#43
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	What happened was the evolution of the people voting. People have taken it stride. Yes it has been somewhat clusterfucky but it happens. Ideas in theory sounded better then they were headed, and the other league's flow with a similiar structure helped change people's minds. Everything I can change. This is all preliminary. When the game comes out everything is under review. But I have been PM'ing everyone with everything along the way so I'd assume you'd know about it.

07-01-2008, 03:09 PM	#44
Kodos Resident Alien Join Date: Jun 2001	EVERYTHING IS *SET IN STONE! __________________ Author of The Bill Gates Challenge*, as well as other groundbreaking dynasties.

07-01-2008, 05:25 PM	#45
Ironhead College Prospect Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Barnegat, NJ	For what it is worth I also originally thought it would be crazy to pick a team without playing with them first and voted to wait. But the more I thought about it, and quite frankly the more the league seemed to be losing some steam, I wanted to go ahead and pick.

07-01-2008, 05:36 PM	#46
Sun Tzu Pro Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: In the thick of it.	If this were a pro game, I'd understand if you were absolutely set on wanting to play with a team before choosing...some guys are locked in to long term contracts, and just in general it's hard to change the face of a pro football team in a short amount of time. Since this is college, it shouldn't make that much of a difference. You can completely change your team around to play the kind of style you like to play in just 2 seasons. __________________ I'm still here. Don't touch my fucking bacon.

07-02-2008, 12:40 PM	#48
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	We did vote, and as I said, don't go by the results up top as they changed. It was (at least) 7-5 in favor of going now.

07-02-2008, 02:48 PM	#49
Mike1409 High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: St. Pete, FL	We did vote and then WE discussed the problems and limitations and ammended the rules.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)