Anti-Vaxx Idiots Unite!

[Subby]

California Gov says yes to poisoning more children with mercury and aluminum in manditory vaccines. This corporate fascist must be stopped.

— Jim Carrey (@JimCarrey) July 1, 2015

California's New Law Will Make Anti-Vaxxers Flip A Table: LAist

[BillJasper]

I always find this video appropriate...

Penn and Teller on Vaccinations - YouTube

[Subby]

I hadn't seen that. So great.

[Subby]

Here's a Fairly Comprehensive List of Anti-Vaccination Celebrities

[BillJasper]

Science is scary!

[Desnudo]

Jenna Elfman is such a terrible actress yet I had such a huge crush on her in the 90s.

#celebritieswhodontunderstandtheconstution

[stevew]

How do vaccines cause autism?

[Dutch]

Alright, everybody, gather around...lets hug.

[BillJasper]

I have three kids, I've had them receive every vaccination recommended by their pediatrician. Two of them are adults and have had no issues, the third is in the third grade and is showing no issues from the vaccinations.

[Abe Sargent]

We already did this and no one cared.

[RedKingGold]

I have a four month old. I tell our pediatrician to shoot him up with anything he thinks will kill a disease or give him superpowers. When he was bitten by a spider this week, I secretly hoped he would start shooting webs out of his fingers and climbing walls.

[Kodos]

We need a vaccination against stupidity.

[digamma]

That link on how vaccinations cause autism is fantastic.

[lighthousekeeper]

i have a lot more empathy for folks who express their uncertainty about something than for people who set out to shame those who express their uncertainty.

[digamma]

Hold please. Are you saying there's uncertainty about vaccines? Just trying to understand your post.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Subby

Here's a Fairly Comprehensive List of Anti-Vaccination Celebrities

Not everyone on that list is anti-vaccination, unless what you mean is government mandated vaccinations.

[digamma]

I think I understand what you are saying, but there's a huge difference between expressing uncertainty or skepticism and discouraging others from using vaccines based on clear misinformation. See Measles Outbreak, 2014-2015.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by digamma

I think I understand what you are saying, but there's a huge difference between expressing uncertainty or skepticism and discouraging others from using vaccines based on clear misinformation. See Measles Outbreak, 2014-2015.

But there are so many sources of information from the doctor, to the information packet they give you about the injections to Google. I just don't buy someone with half a brain would need "years" to get comfortable with the idea.

We know that allowing these diseases to run amok unchecked is far more dangerous than the side effects very, very few will ever experience from vaccinations. People have to realize that they and their kids are part of society and being part of society means taking precautions that will protect society as a whole.

[digamma]

I agree with you, of course. And that's really the point, if someone is unsure and has questions, there are answers from years and years of medical research.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by digamma

I agree with you, of course. And that's really the point, if someone is unsure and has questions, there are answers from years and years of medical research.

I get aggravated because so many Americans are so wrapped up in 'personal freedom' that they can't see beyond their own front door.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

people have uncertainty. despite what some on the internet think, we are not all instantly experts on everything. i can understand someone feeling uncomfortable about being forced to do something that they have not yet been able to gain 100% certainty about. if i wanted to personally know with 100% certainty that all vaccines were safe, it would probably take over 5 years. i'd need to get some schooling, obtain grant funding for research, conduct research on the various vaccines, get my research vetted with other experts, and then know they are all safe. or of course i could just do what 99% of us do: admit we will never have the time to personally know for sure if things are safe and just trust the government and scientific community. but we know that doesn't pan out 100% of the time either. so that is just the position we find ourselves in modern society. because of that I can understand why people are hesitant.

Here's a piece of wisdom: life isn't safe. Nothing is 100% guaranteed in it except for the fact we'll all be dead from something, somewhere along our road of existence.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Here's a piece of wisdom: life isn't safe. Nothing is 100% guaranteed in it except for the fact we'll all be dead from something, somewhere along our road of existence.

You forgot taxes.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

But there are so many sources of information from the doctor, to the information packet they give you about the injections to Google. I just don't buy someone with half a brain would need "years" to get comfortable with the idea.

Getting 'comfortable with the idea' involves trust, and people have different levels of ease in trusting. It's natural for people to distrust - it is an attempt to stay safe from unknown dangers. If the answer is "trust google", then let's just trust google: My quick google search returns these as the top 3 choices for "are vaccines safe?":

HealthyChildren.org (pro vaccine, but no links to any studies, just a general "the AAP and CDC have studied this, so just trust them)

CDC site - looks like a great source of information

Thinktwice.com - looks like lots of anti vaxxer material


Reading the 3 top sources from google and trusting them all creates instant cognitive dissonance.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

Getting 'comfortable with the idea' involves trust, and people have different levels of ease in trusting. It's natural for people to distrust - it is an attempt to stay safe from unknown dangers. If the answer is "trust google", then let's just trust google: My quick google search returns these as the top 3 choices for "are vaccines safe?":

HealthyChildren.org (pro vaccine, but no links to any studies, just a general "the AAP and CDC have studied this, so just trust them)

CDC site - looks like a great source of information

Thinktwice.com - looks like lots of anti vaxxer material


Reading the 3 top sources from google and trusting them all creates instant cognitive dissonance.

I said Google is one piece of the puzzle. There is also interaction with doctors and the information packet that came for every vaccination my kids have ever had.

It isn't like they say "just trust us". The information is there for people that want to look for it and it doesn't take years to get comfortable with it.

While a limited sample size, I had all my vaccinations, no issues. My two younger sisters had all their vaccinations, no issues. My three kids have had all their vaccinations, to date, no issues. I simply don't know anyone who had an even mild reaction from childhood vaccinations.

[revrew]

It's tempting, particularly at my place of work, to call people who oppose my opinions on issues "idiots."

But a co-worker reminded me recently that we don't know everybody's stories. That sometimes we think poorly of a person, maybe their work ethic, maybe their politics, maybe their stance on a particular issue, until we discover there's a story behind their opinions. It's often a story of grief or heartache or simply an experience they've had that has tempered their thoughts but not ours. So I hesitate on calling even people who hold idiotic positions "idiots."

In the case of vaccinations, I'm a father who had not one, but two, and maybe even three children suffer adverse reactions to childhood immunizations (and no, I'm not talking about autism). I'm the dad who held the screaming baby in his arms, who tried to comfort a panicking mother when the child stiffened in paralysis, who rushed his daughter into the hospital in the dead of the night. I'm the father who tried to reassure his teenage daughter after am immunization-triggered auto-immune disease caused her hair to start falling out in clumps. We ARE the family who falls into those "few people" who suffer adverse reactions to standard immunizations.

So forgive me if I object to the label of "idiot."

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

people have uncertainty. despite what some on the internet think, we are not all instantly experts on everything. i can understand someone feeling uncomfortable about being forced to do something that they have not yet been able to gain 100% certainty about. if i wanted to personally know with 100% certainty that all vaccines were safe, it would probably take over 5 years. i'd need to get some schooling, obtain grant funding for research, conduct research on the various vaccines, get my research vetted with other experts, and then know they are all safe. or of course i could just do what 99% of us do: admit we will never have the time to personally know for sure if things are safe and just trust the government and scientific community. but we know that doesn't pan out 100% of the time either. so that is just the position we find ourselves in modern society. because of that I can understand why people are hesitant.

Good thing lighthouses have no corners, because you would painted yourself into one if they did.

what else do you believe you must become an expert on before engaging? Car breaks? Relationships? Language? Food?

[Subby]

Well my kids reacted fine to their vaccinations, so my anecdotal evidence and your anecdotal evidence cancel each other out. So, hey, let's see what SCIENCE says!

Centers for Disease Control: Vaccines: Vac-Gen/What Would Happen If We Stopped Vaccinations

[revrew]

Originally Posted by Subby

Well my kids reacted fine to their vaccinations, so my anecdotal evidence and your anecdotal evidence cancel each other out. So, hey, let's see what SCIENCE says!

Centers for Disease Control: Vaccines: Vac-Gen/What Would Happen If We Stopped Vaccinations

You see, Subby, if our roles were reversed here ... I would have apologized.

[digamma]

revrew,

I'm sorry your kids had issues with vaccinations--that must have been incredibly traumatizing. As the CDC points out, there are side effects, some mild and common and some exceedingly rare. My kids had the mildest versions, fevers and swollen legs. Did your other kids have issues or did you stop vaccinating them? Are you truly anti-vaccination now?

[Subby]

Originally Posted by revrew

You see, Subby, if our roles were reversed here ... I would have apologized.

I take that back. If we were face to face we wouldn't be having this discussion and I would be kind to you. I apologize for hurting your feelings. That was not my intent. Sometimes my emotions get the best of me, particularly on line.

[miked]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

people have uncertainty. despite what some on the internet think, we are not all instantly experts on everything. i can understand someone feeling uncomfortable about being forced to do something that they have not yet been able to gain 100% certainty about. if i wanted to personally know with 100% certainty that all vaccines were safe, it would probably take over 5 years. i'd need to get some schooling, obtain grant funding for research, conduct research on the various vaccines, get my research vetted with other experts, and then know they are all safe. or of course i could just do what 99% of us do: admit we will never have the time to personally know for sure if things are safe and just trust the government and scientific community. but we know that doesn't pan out 100% of the time either. so that is just the position we find ourselves in modern society. because of that I can understand why people are hesitant.

I have a lot of uncertainty about fixing my car, but it doesn't mean I have to go to mechanic training for 5 years to let somebody fix it. Not the best example, but you need not do the research yourself. The amazing part is that people a lot smarter than you in that area have been doing it for about a century!

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by miked

I have a lot of uncertainty about fixing my car, but it doesn't mean I have to go to mechanic training for 5 years to let somebody fix it. Not the best example, but you need not do the research yourself. The amazing part is that people a lot smarter than you in that area have been doing it for about a century!

This further reinforces my original (any only) point: "i have a lot more empathy for folks who express their uncertainty about something than for people who set out to shame those who express their uncertainty."

In this example, I do have more empathy for folks who wonder if their mechanic is giving them the best deal, versus folks who call those who have those doubts idiots.

[revrew]

Originally Posted by Subby

I take that back. If we were face to face we wouldn't be having this discussion and I would be kind to you. I apologize for hurting your feelings. That was not my intent. Sometimes my emotions get the best of me, particularly on line.

Cool. I can respect that. Apology accepted.

[nol]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

This further reinforces my original (any only) point: "i have a lot more empathy for folks who express their uncertainty about something than for people who set out to shame those who express their uncertainty."

In this example, I do have more empathy for folks who wonder if their mechanic is giving them the best deal, versus folks who call those who have those doubts idiots.

The better analogy would be if your car didn't have any brakes and you were expressing doubts about whether it would be good for your car to have brakes because you'd heard that some people have been injured because the car they were in came to a stop too quickly.

[finkenst]

Originally Posted by Subby

California's New Law Will Make Anti-Vaxxers Flip A Table: LAist

First time I've seen Jerry Brown accused of being a corporate fascist.

[dawgfan]

So I recently found out that only 76.6% of incoming kids at my son's kindergarten are fully vaccinated. And the crazy thing is, that's only 26th lowest among Seattle elementary schools.

Yay people that don't understand science!

[rowech]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

So I recently found out that only 76.6% of incoming kids at my son's kindergarten are fully vaccinated. And the crazy thing is, that's only 26th lowest among Seattle elementary schools.

Yay people that don't understand science!

What is involved in "fully vaccinated"?

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by rowech

What is involved in "fully vaccinated"?

Call it an educated guess: CDC - Vaccines - Immunization Schedules main page

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

So I recently found out that only 76.6% of incoming kids at my son's kindergarten are fully vaccinated. And the crazy thing is, that's only 26th lowest among Seattle elementary schools.

Yay people that don't understand science!

Or maybe they understand the science but are too lazy or apathetic to take care of it.

[CraigSca]

Too lazy to bring their kids in for their early childhood checkups?

[Kodos]

That's crazy lazy if you aren't giving your kids potentially life-saving shots.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Too lazy to bring their kids in for their early childhood checkups?

Lot's of adults choose to not support the one's they create at all, why would this suddenly be high on their radar?

[molson]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

So I recently found out that only 76.6% of incoming kids at my son's kindergarten are fully vaccinated. And the crazy thing is, that's only 26th lowest among Seattle elementary schools.

The numbers are probably out there, but I wonder if that's a higher or lower percentage than who vaccinated 10-20 years ago or longer. I'm sure there's always the neglectful parent factor, but I'd bet there's more people choosing not to vaccinate today, basically for political reasons. Once this became a political issue that, for some people, defined what part of the political spectrum you were on.

I understand the mocking on this and similar topics and have participated in it a million time myself, but I think its definitely true that once something becomes a "hot" social and political issue and one group aggressively expresses their superiority on an issue to another group, it causes more division, and it actually increases the numbers and passion of the opposition group. In kind of a similar way, I always thought it was weird and counter-productive when some Democrats complain about Republicans being obstructionist and hostile and not working with them, but then also generally express so much anger and hate towards that group, and portray them a certain way as if they're something less than human, or at least, way beneath them. Of course that's opinions, and this is science, but I think the impacts are the same. There's so many huge divisions and peoples' identities are all wrapped up in them.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Call it an educated guess: CDC - Vaccines - Immunization Schedules main page

If getting a flu vaccine is needed to be considered fully vaccinated then I find that not surprising. Chicken Pox vaccine maybe in the same category.

[tarcone]

As long as your unvaccinated kid doesn't bring a peanut product to school, its all good

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Subby

I take that back. If we were face to face we wouldn't be having this discussion and I would be kind to you. I apologize for hurting your feelings. That was not my intent. Sometimes my emotions get the best of me, particularly on line.

I love ya Subby. You are a good man and a great father. You are also honest. I like that combo.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by rowech

If getting a flu vaccine is needed to be considered fully vaccinated then I find that not surprising. Chicken Pox vaccine maybe in the same category.

It's not just those - it's polio, measles and whooping cough among others.

http://kuow.org/post/seattle-schools...-neighborhoods

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by molson

The numbers are probably out there, but I wonder if that's a higher or lower percentage than who vaccinated 10-20 years ago or longer. I'm sure there's always the neglectful parent factor, but I'd bet there's more people choosing not to vaccinate today, basically for political reasons. Once this became a political issue that, for some people, defined what part of the political spectrum you were on.

I understand the mocking on this and similar topics and have participated in it a million time myself, but I think its definitely true that once something becomes a "hot" social and political issue and one group aggressively expresses their superiority on an issue to another group, it causes more division, and it actually increases the numbers and passion of the opposition group. In kind of a similar way, I always thought it was weird and counter-productive when some Democrats complain about Republicans being obstructionist and hostile and not working with them, but then also generally express so much anger and hate towards that group, and portray them a certain way as if they're something less than human, or at least, way beneath them. Of course that's opinions, and this is science, but I think the impacts are the same. There's so many huge divisions and peoples' identities are all wrapped up in them.

I'm sure the rates of parents opting out of vaccinations is higher now than in the past. Overall vaccination rates may be higher in certain populations as social programs have improved their coverage in getting vaccinations to populations that might not have had access to them in the past, but the percentage of parents actively declining vaccinations has certainly risen.

As for why, I think you're partly right. I think there are a lot of factors that have gone into it. There is certainly a strain of thinking that is very skeptical of anything that isn't perceived as "natural". You have folks that have come to not trust western medicine and medical practices, and then you add in people cynical about big business and completely distrust "big Pharma", add in ability of the internet to spread opinions faster and farther than ever before and then mix in a bullshit study (since fully discredited) that tried to link vaccinations and autism and some air-headed celebrities that loudly spread this bullshit around the mainstream, and there you have it.

Yes, those who are aghast at anti-vaxxers (such as myself) don't do our cause any favors by approaching this the wrong way. If you have an understanding of psychology, it's no surprise that studies have shown that presenting facts to a group that contradicts the beliefs of a group can actually serve to harden their disbelief in those facts. I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine the other night about Dale Carnegie and his approach to influencing people, and it's something all of us would do well to consider.

You're not going to win over someone by telling them "You're wrong about vaccines - there's no connection to autism, etc". You have to take a much more gentle approach and guide them in a way that allows them to feel like they themselves come to the conclusion. When someone says "Those vaccines contain toxic chemicals!" you can calmly reply "Did you realize that all things in the world are toxic at a certain dose? Even water?"

I'm actually sympathetic to some of the core things that I think drive much of the anti-vaxxer movement. I have no doubt that industries - including Pharma - behave in ways that benefit themselves even if it means harming the rest of us. I get that sometimes the scientific community produces studies that are bullshit, and less nefariously studies that simply are poorly constructed or incomplete and conclusions are drawn from them that are not correct. I get that people don't trust every scientific advance and strive for more natural approaches (I generally support organic farming). But I also understand the scientific process, I can see the clear connection between vaccination and the dramatic reduction in some terrible diseases and I trust that there's been enough scientific cross-checking on all the factors that go into vaccines that I'm not actually poisoning my kids.

It'll be interesting to see how the inevitable court challenges to California's new law on opt-outs fare. I certainly hope to see Washington enact similar legislation.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

It's not just those - it's polio, measles and whooping cough among others.

http://kuow.org/post/seattle-schools...-neighborhoods

I know. What I was saying was that if in order to be considered "fully vaccinated" one would need to have the flu vaccine then there are going to be parents who did not have that one done and I don't think that makes the school any more unsafe.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by rowech

I know. What I was saying was that if in order to be considered "fully vaccinated" one would need to have the flu vaccine then there are going to be parents who did not have that one done and I don't think that makes the school any more unsafe.

If you read the link provided though, it's the relatively low rates of measles, whooping cough and polio vaccinations that stand out and are worrisome.