Will the Jacksonville Jaguars move to London?

[Galaxy]

NFL eyes London's Olympic Stadium for franchise, possibly Jags | FOX Sports on MSN

[Suicane75]

Moving off continent is the dumbest of all the dumb ideas.

[Lathum]

this thread is useless without a poll

[Lathum]

but I would say no, logistically it would be a mess. And good luck getting FAs to sign or stay with the teams. Also, hope they never want to host a game that doesn't start at 1:00 EST. The list goes on.

[BillJasper]

So their going to make fans of one of the teams watch the Super Bowl starting at 11:30pm local time? If London gets a Super Bowl, it would be kicking off at the latest, 3PM EST, which I'm sure their billion-dollar American broadcast partners are going to love.

There is nothing about moving a team to London which makes sense for the NFL.

[BillJasper]

I guess another consideration would be players with "colorful" pasts being able to get work visas in Britain.

[CAsterling]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Moving off continent is the dumbest of all the dumb ideas.

I agree - at the moment playing one or two games each year over there is a novelty so people from all over Britain and Europe go to the games.

However more than that people will not be so responsive and travelling to London is an expensive pain for most people. Added to that the competition for sports fans in London on a weekend will be a challenge.

Of course this would also mean that all the players and staff would have to move over there. Which would cause Family and Tax implications for all of those people.

How would a team be able to compete in free agency for top players. Selling them on moving to cold rainy England and being away from everything they know and love to an environment where they won't get much recognition and adulation would be hard to sell as a positive.

I know the NFL wants to dominate the globe, but NFL Europe failed for a reason and those reasons haven't been addressed yet.

[Alf]

1:00 EST is 6pm UK time (7pm rest of Europe time) and is pretty convenient.

The big thing is :
- logistics (that's international travel + jet-lag several times a week)
- getting FAs to sign

But I am looking at this with interest.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Alf

1:00 EST is 6pm UK time (7pm rest of Europe time) and is pretty convenient.

It is, but that means you never get a prime time home game.

[CAsterling]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I guess another consideration would be players with "colorful" pasts being able to get work visas in Britain.

That is a very good point, I hadn't thought about this.
And not just players with colorful pasts. The wait time for actors/singers/Soccer Players can be weeks or months to get an entertainers visa.

so the draft happens, then the club has to apply for a visa for everyone of those players and the undrafted players they sign. Then they have to wait for weeks before they can join the team. OTAs and Training camp could be badly disrupted unless they moved thos activities to the USA in the off-season.

I can see this being a logistical nightmare for whichever team tries to do it.

[Ryan S]

Tax will be a huge problem.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ryan S

Tax will be a huge problem.

Yeah. They'd have to put in a workaround where the salary cap/etc. were all calculated on after-tax dollars.

Which would make it all even massively more expensive for the owner.

[Kodos]

London sounds even worse than L.A.!

Why not give Toronto a team?

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by CAsterling

That is a very good point, I hadn't thought about this.
And not just players with colorful pasts. The wait time for actors/singers/Soccer Players can be weeks or months to get an entertainers visa.

so the draft happens, then the club has to apply for a visa for everyone of those players and the undrafted players they sign. Then they have to wait for weeks before they can join the team. OTAs and Training camp could be badly disrupted unless they moved thos activities to the USA in the off-season.

I can see this being a logistical nightmare for whichever team tries to do it.

Then your window is going to be compressed with talk of moving the draft to May. Then what happens if you need to fill a roster spot during the season?

Will people in Britain pay to watch a bad team year after year after year?

[Logan]

Have there been studies done yet on what the estimated franchise value would be for a team over there? Not the overall impact for the NFL (which would have a ton of assumptions/projections built into it), but the day 1 value and where it would fall between the Cowboys, Redskins, etc.

I just feel like it makes much more sense to commit the resources to expanding the game into Europe through technology, not a physical presence.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

How would Jacksonville feel as a community? Congrats, you're the first team in NFL history to get outsourced!

[Julio Riddols]

Between this and the push for an 18 game season I am hoping Goodell is forced out somehow soon. I think he is really fucking up the game.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Logan

I just feel like it makes much more sense to commit the resources to expanding the game into Europe through technology, not a physical presence.

I think if the NFL wants to go global, it'll need to begin seeding other continents. But, I think moving a single team there would be a huge mistake. You would need to move at least two franchises there (possibly four, all in the same division) in order for them to have a natural rivalry that Europeans are going to care about.

If you put four teams in a "Europe Division", then you cut back the number of times those teams would have to fly back to the States from eight to five. Plus, it would give you a larger number of unemployed players with work visas to look at.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

Between this and the push for an 18 game season I am hoping Goodell is forced out somehow soon. I think he is really fucking up the game.

I agree that both of those items are dumb, but like Goodell overall.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

You would need to move at least two franchises there (possibly four, all in the same division) in order for them to have a natural rivalry that Europeans are going to care about.

That's what we did at IHOF, we have a European Division

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Alf

That's what we did at IHOF, we have a European Division

You guys were forward-thinking!

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

If you put four teams in a "Europe Division", then you cut back the number of times those teams would have to fly back to the States from eight to five. Plus, it would give you a larger number of unemployed players with work visas to look at.

It also means a larger number of games against crappy teams that nobody wants to buy tickets for.

[chadritt]

If london gets a team before LA then something just feels wrong.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Kodos

London sounds even worse than L.A.!

Why not give Toronto a team?

1) Toronto "belongs" to Buffalo. Might be the future permanent home of the Bills.

2) Toronto hasn't exactly been in a frenzy over the Bills or the NFL.

[Super Ugly]

I've been to a couple of the Wembley games and I'm very happy for it to continue, but a London franchise would be a disaster. I live 30 minutes from London, but I'm not going to stop supporting the Jets just because the Jaguars (or whoever) have relocated here. I suspect a lot of British football fans feel the same way. In fact, I find it a little insulting that the NFL assumes that the British will drop everything and start supporting a London team just because it's here.

If the NFL was really serious about growing the game over here, they'd invest some money into the domestic leagues. Last time I checked, there are some 40 teams playing contact football, and participation is going up. The domestic league has exported some very good players and we're seeing British players (and other Europeans) on college and NFL teams. Develop the grass roots, build up the interest, and maybe in a few years a professional franchise will make sense.

[Super Ugly]

Originally Posted by CAsterling

I know the NFL wants to dominate the globe, but NFL Europe failed for a reason and those reasons haven't been addressed yet.

What are those reasons? Just curious to hear what you think. I see this sort of thing being mentioned all the time.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Super Ugly

I've been to a couple of the Wembley games and I'm very happy for it to continue, but a London franchise would be a disaster. I live 30 minutes from London, but I'm not going to stop supporting the Jets just because the Jaguars (or whoever) have relocated here. I suspect a lot of British football fans feel the same way. In fact, I find it a little insulting that the NFL assumes that the British will drop everything and start supporting a London team just because it's here.

If the NFL was really serious about growing the game over here, they'd invest some money into the domestic leagues. Last time I checked, there are some 40 teams playing contact football, and participation is going up. The domestic league has exported some very good players and we're seeing British players (and other Europeans) on college and NFL teams. Develop the grass roots, build up the interest, and maybe in a few years a professional franchise will make sense.

I'm sure everyone wouldn't drop everything, and many wouldn't care at all, but wouldn't any NFL franchise in London outdraw, say, the Jaguars in Jacksonville? I would think that would be a huge attraction for locals and European tourists in London for 8 dates a year. The daily grind of a baseball or basketball season might kill the novelty pretty fast, but I'd think for football, there would be plenty of interest. (though the logistics might be a whole different issue)

[ColtCrazy]

Not that I would mind if I could snag a yearly ticket to the Colts - Jags/Monarchs game but I just don't see how the logistics will work

[Super Ugly]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm sure everyone wouldn't drop everything, and many wouldn't care at all, but wouldn't any NFL franchise in London outdraw, say, the Jaguars in Jacksonville? I would think that would be a huge attraction for locals and European tourists in London for 8 dates a year. The daily grind of a baseball or basketball season might kill the novelty pretty fast, but I'd think for football, there would be plenty of interest.

Maybe, but you need to define 'local'. Would there be enough interest in London and the south east of England to sell out the stadium on a regular basis? I seriously doubt it. Is there enough interest in the wider UK and continental Europe? Most certainly, but the UK's transit system is, not to put too fine a point on it, utterly fucked. I don't see northern or Scottish fans making the lengthy (and costly) trip down to London on a fortnightly basis for that reason alone. And forget about the continental Europeans. Air travel within the EU is relatively inexpensive, but it'd still be too much of a headache for most people to do it for anything other than the marquee matchups.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Ryan S

It also means a larger number of games against crappy teams that nobody wants to buy tickets for.

I think I would counter with a couple points here:

1. A "Europe Division" would guarantee a non-American team a spot in the playoffs every year.

2. If say London was 4-11, would a game be more interesting to English fans if they were playing say Frankfurt or Barcelona instead of the Arizona Cardinals? I don't really know, I don't know those markets at all.

Originally Posted by Super Ugly

I've been to a couple of the Wembley games and I'm very happy for it to continue, but a London franchise would be a disaster. I live 30 minutes from London, but I'm not going to stop supporting the Jets just because the Jaguars (or whoever) have relocated here. I suspect a lot of British football fans feel the same way. In fact, I find it a little insulting that the NFL assumes that the British will drop everything and start supporting a London team just because it's here.

If the NFL was really serious about growing the game over here, they'd invest some money into the domestic leagues. Last time I checked, there are some 40 teams playing contact football, and participation is going up. The domestic league has exported some very good players and we're seeing British players (and other Europeans) on college and NFL teams. Develop the grass roots, build up the interest, and maybe in a few years a professional franchise will make sense.

Could this end up mirroring the trouble MLB had when they expanded to Florida? So many people were already fans of other teams because of Florida being the spring training home of many teams that the Florida teams ended up having (and still have) trouble drawing fans.

[Julio Riddols]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I agree that both of those items are dumb, but like Goodell overall.

I just feel like there is something extremely disingenuous about him. It's like he is trying to brainwash the public into thinking his ideas were theirs by saying people want to see more games and people want to see a team in London, etc. I can't stand people who manipulate others knowingly to achieve personal goals.

[nilodor]

Wouldn't the NFL season go head on against the Premier League? Isn't that a losing mission?

[molson]

They got 83,000+ for two games with bad match-ups this year, involving teams that have no connection to them whatsoever. It's hard to believe they couldn't draw decently for just 6 more games than that, with a local team covered all year by the local media.

People aren't going to be traveling all over Europe just to see this team, but isn't London filled with tourists and business travelers? I would think whatever local fanbase they can muster would be supplemented by people from all over who were traveling through, and came to see what would be a pretty unique event - Europe's only team in a U.S. professional league. Major European soccer friendlies draw pretty well in places like NYC, even with almost zero discernible mainstream interest, just because NYC is international and diverse, and those games are relatively unique events. If there were 8 real premiere league games in NYC every year, I have no doubt they'd do well at least attendance-wise.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Super Ugly

Maybe, but you need to define 'local'. Would there be enough interest in London and the south east of England to sell out the stadium on a regular basis? I seriously doubt it. Is there enough interest in the wider UK and continental Europe? Most certainly, but the UK's transit system is, not to put too fine a point on it, utterly fucked. I don't see northern or Scottish fans making the lengthy (and costly) trip down to London on a fortnightly basis for that reason alone. And forget about the continental Europeans. Air travel within the EU is relatively inexpensive, but it'd still be too much of a headache for most people to do it for anything other than the marquee matchups.

And you don't want to put a billion dollar stadium into the ground and hope to sell a good portion of those seats to people who are coming into town for a weekend. You want season ticket sales, hopefully long term complete with PSLs, in order to justify the cost.

[Julio Riddols]

I could see 7-8 games a year in London with the caveat that no team can play more than one game overseas and an extra bye week is added to the schedule with teams only playing in London after a bye week. This way, London effectively gets as many local games as any other city and it showcases a lot more of the teams in the league. Fans in London most likely have a good mix of favorite teams and this seems like it would probably be the best way to serve the NFL interest in London and give the fans in London more of what they want instead of pushing a terrible team on them.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

I could see 7-8 games a year in London with the caveat that no team can play more than one game overseas and an extra bye week is added to the schedule with teams only playing in London after a bye week. This way, London effectively gets as many local games as any other city and it showcases a lot more of the teams in the league. Fans in London most likely have a good mix of favorite teams and this seems like it would probably be the best way to serve the NFL interest in London and give the fans in London more of what they want instead of pushing a terrible team on them.

Yeah, if they do 8 games, then London would see every team within two years. Set it on a rotating schedule so each team would know ahead of time which season they would only play 7 true home games, which would happen once every four years.

[Julio Riddols]

Originally Posted by cartman

Yeah, if they do 8 games, then London would see every team within two years. Set it on a rotating schedule so each team would know ahead of time which season they would only play 7 true home games, which would happen once every four years.

I think this is the sweet spot. It sets up a perfect rotation and I don't think fans would be too disappointed in losing one game every 4 years. I think the NFL would probably make even more money on it because if there was a designated London team and they perpetually suck, you're probably going to lose fans pretty quick.

[flere-imsaho]

Putting a team in Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver, Montreal or Mexico City makes a lot more sense.

[CAsterling]

Originally Posted by Super Ugly

What are those reasons? Just curious to hear what you think. I see this sort of thing being mentioned all the time.

Just some of the reasons I see.

Teams tend to get local support (Scottish Claymores. Frankfurt Galaxy etc), would have gotten most of their fans from local areas. Very few people would have traveled to these games from any great distance. You can get people to travel once or twice a year as a special occasion, but not regularly. Hence London as a permanent venue might sell out games for 2-3 years for curiosity value after that people will stop going, that is what happened to a lot of the NFL Europe teams, once the casual fan has seen a couple of games they stop attending.

The sports media is heavily soccer based. The media that tried to publicize NFL Europe was the fringes of the mainstream sports media. NFL Europe got little TV coverage and what it did get was on minor or cable channels that are not heavily watched. NFL Europe needed a major TV network to back it to get it into as many households as possible - it never got that. An NFL team in London will have the same problem.

Trying to run American Football in the same cities as major soccer teams has a problem. People have a finite cash flow, and Soccer is always going to command most of the money. Especially in bad weather.

Players in NFL Europe got little personal publicity, so no-one new who the QBs or skill players were, so nobody cared about them (there were a couple of exceptions, but just a couple). Tennis/Cricket/lawn bowls/darts/egg and spoon race players got more publicity than starting NFL Europe QBs received. The same would happen with NFL players, they are trained to talk in cliches, and in England especially people don't like that. European sports like "characters", not polished media savy players - hence people like William Perry are still looked upon fondly over there, but 99% of the current NFL would be ignored.

As I don't have time to write a thesis today on this subject I will stop now, but there are more reasons.....I haven't even got to the "bad" football that most of NFL Europe's teams played.

However I will say, if the NFL want to do this then they should move a team to Spain or Southern Germany. Both locations are more central, have better weather, less sports competition, they also actually have more NFL fans than England and much better weather.

[Kodos]

Seems like playoff games in London would be difficult for visiting teams.

[Super Ugly]

Originally Posted by CAsterling

Just some of the reasons I see.

Teams tend to get local support (Scottish Claymores. Frankfurt Galaxy etc), would have gotten most of their fans from local areas. Very few people would have traveled to these games from any great distance. You can get people to travel once or twice a year as a special occasion, but not regularly. Hence London as a permanent venue might sell out games for 2-3 years for curiosity value after that people will stop going, that is what happened to a lot of the NFL Europe teams, once the casual fan has seen a couple of games they stop attending.

The sports media is heavily soccer based. The media that tried to publicize NFL Europe was the fringes of the mainstream sports media. NFL Europe got little TV coverage and what it did get was on minor or cable channels that are not heavily watched. NFL Europe needed a major TV network to back it to get it into as many households as possible - it never got that. An NFL team in London will have the same problem.

Trying to run American Football in the same cities as major soccer teams has a problem. People have a finite cash flow, and Soccer is always going to command most of the money. Especially in bad weather.

Players in NFL Europe got little personal publicity, so no-one new who the QBs or skill players were, so nobody cared about them (there were a couple of exceptions, but just a couple). Tennis/Cricket/lawn bowls/darts/egg and spoon race players got more publicity than starting NFL Europe QBs received. The same would happen with NFL players, they are trained to talk in cliches, and in England especially people don't like that. European sports like "characters", not polished media savy players - hence people like William Perry are still looked upon fondly over there, but 99% of the current NFL would be ignored.

As I don't have time to write a thesis today on this subject I will stop now, but there are more reasons.....I haven't even got to the "bad" football that most of NFL Europe's teams played.

However I will say, if the NFL want to do this then they should move a team to Spain or Southern Germany. Both locations are more central, have better weather, less sports competition, they also actually have more NFL fans than England and much better weather.

Grand, thanks. Definitely agree that the NFL needs to show Germany or Spain some love.

[molson]

Even the U.S. doesn't care about minor league football (except if college counts as minor league), so course NFL Europe wasn't going to be successful. At the very least, an NFL team would have to have more interest than an NFL Europe team.

[CAsterling]

Originally Posted by molson

Even the U.S. doesn't care about minor league football (except if college counts as minor league), so course NFL Europe wasn't going to be successful. At the very least, an NFL team would have to have more interest than an NFL Europe team.

I agree that an NFL team would have more interest than an NFL Europe team.
However remember that Europeans do care about minor league teams, hence the 10,000 people that turn up every other weekend to watch the home game for their 3rd tier soccer teams.

It a minor league NFL league was going to survive, Europe was the logical choice.

There are just so many problems I see with London as the choice for the NFL. I do like the 7-8 games by rotating teams idea, because it will be different players coming in to generate interest that will help sustain the interest. However once it becomes familiar rather than a special event I still see interest waning in England within a few years.

[Marmel]

Would they make Houston, Indy and Tennessee play a game over there every season? I can't see the teams within that division being happy at all. So then are you going to scrap all home/home series within all the divisions to make it fair? The logistics are terrible.

[MartinD]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

So their going to make fans of one of the teams watch the Super Bowl starting at 11:30pm local time? If London gets a Super Bowl, it would be kicking off at the latest, 3PM EST, which I'm sure their billion-dollar American broadcast partners are going to love.

There is nothing about moving a team to London which makes sense for the NFL.

Quite a few people on this side of the Atlantic stay up to the wee hours to watch the Super Bowl live, almost irrespective of the teams that are playing - it wouldn't be ideal, but people will find a way, if they want something badly enough.

Originally Posted by Super Ugly

Maybe, but you need to define 'local'. Would there be enough interest in London and the south east of England to sell out the stadium on a regular basis? I seriously doubt it. Is there enough interest in the wider UK and continental Europe? Most certainly, but the UK's transit system is, not to put too fine a point on it, utterly fucked. I don't see northern or Scottish fans making the lengthy (and costly) trip down to London on a fortnightly basis for that reason alone. And forget about the continental Europeans. Air travel within the EU is relatively inexpensive, but it'd still be too much of a headache for most people to do it for anything other than the marquee matchups.

'Costly' is a pretty good description... I looked into going to one of the London games a couple of years back - tickets were a little expensive, but not too bad for a one-off. The problem was getting down to London (from just outside Edinburgh) - the options were to drive (around 8 hours each way at best, with the drive home catching rush hour on the Monday morning or afternoon), fly (at least 3 hours each way when you take into account getting to the airport and the stadium, and probably not much change out of £200) or take the train (about 6 hours each way when you include getting to the station, and not much cheaper than flying). Add in somewhere to stay overnight (and a day off work on the Monday), and it ends up being a pretty expensive day trip, and a lot of time spent travelling for a 3-hour game.

As a result, I wasn't even tempted to apply for tickets this year, even with the 49ers making the trip to London...

Originally Posted by CAsterling

However I will say, if the NFL want to do this then they should move a team to Spain or Southern Germany. Both locations are more central, have better weather, less sports competition, they also actually have more NFL fans than England and much better weather.

The German NFL Europe teams had really strong support (which is why there were five teams in Germany at the end before the plug got pulled) - in terms of getting consistent high attendances after the honeymoon period for a new team, it seems to me that putting a franchise in Germany would make a lot more sense than London if the NFL is serious about putting a team in Europe.

[CAsterling]

Originally Posted by MartinD

'Costly' is a pretty good description... I looked into going to one of the London games a couple of years back - tickets were a little expensive, but not too bad for a one-off. The problem was getting down to London (from just outside Edinburgh) - the options were to drive (around 8 hours each way at best, with the drive home catching rush hour on the Monday morning or afternoon), fly (at least 3 hours each way when you take into account getting to the airport and the stadium, and probably not much change out of £200) or take the train (about 6 hours each way when you include getting to the station, and not much cheaper than flying). Add in somewhere to stay overnight (and a day off work on the Monday), and it ends up being a pretty expensive day trip, and a lot of time spent travelling for a 3-hour game.

I still have friends in Swindon (yes I know, I pity them for living there too), which is just 75 miles west of London, who looked at going this year. Trains ran too infrequently and were too expensive to make is feasible. Driving was inconvenient, expensive and parking would be a nightmare, so that option was out. So like you they looked at an overnight stay and in the end decided it was too much hassle and expense. So even much closer fans have much the same problems.

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by molson

They got 83,000+ for two games with bad match-ups this year, involving teams that have no connection to them whatsoever. It's hard to believe they couldn't draw decently for just 6 more games than that, with a local team covered all year by the local media.

The games this season featured the Steelers and the 49ers. Both of those teams are amongst the most popular in the UK. Next year London is getting two more popular (in the UK) teams in the Dolphins and the Cowboys. London Franchise v Cleveland Browns is a much harder sell.

The attendance figures for the current London games are not a good indication of how a London franchise will do. Most people are not going to multiple games and will treat it as a one off experience.

The London franchise will have minimal local media coverage. We don't have local sports networks in the UK, so all TV is national, and outside of game coverage and highlights we get about 1 hour a day of NFL Network programming.

Speaking as an NFL fan living in the UK (who might be moving to London in the next year or two), I think that it would a terrible idea for the NFL.

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

I could see 7-8 games a year in London with the caveat that no team can play more than one game overseas and an extra bye week is added to the schedule with teams only playing in London after a bye week. This way, London effectively gets as many local games as any other city and it showcases a lot more of the teams in the league. Fans in London most likely have a good mix of favorite teams and this seems like it would probably be the best way to serve the NFL interest in London and give the fans in London more of what they want instead of pushing a terrible team on them.

Before they consider a London franchise they need to try something like this for a few years. Figure out if the attendance is going to collapse when the novelty wears off.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by MartinD

Quite a few people on this side of the Atlantic stay up to the wee hours to watch the Super Bowl live, almost irrespective of the teams that are playing - it wouldn't be ideal, but people will find a way, if they want something badly enough.



'Costly' is a pretty good description... I looked into going to one of the London games a couple of years back - tickets were a little expensive, but not too bad for a one-off. The problem was getting down to London (from just outside Edinburgh) - the options were to drive (around 8 hours each way at best, with the drive home catching rush hour on the Monday morning or afternoon), fly (at least 3 hours each way when you take into account getting to the airport and the stadium, and probably not much change out of £200) or take the train (about 6 hours each way when you include getting to the station, and not much cheaper than flying). Add in somewhere to stay overnight (and a day off work on the Monday), and it ends up being a pretty expensive day trip, and a lot of time spent travelling for a 3-hour game.

As a result, I wasn't even tempted to apply for tickets this year, even with the 49ers making the trip to London...



The German NFL Europe teams had really strong support (which is why there were five teams in Germany at the end before the plug got pulled) - in terms of getting consistent high attendances after the honeymoon period for a new team, it seems to me that putting a franchise in Germany would make a lot more sense than London if the NFL is serious about putting a team in Europe.

Didn't the German teams get a boost from the US military bases?

[cthomer5000]

I would imagine work visas for the entire goddamn team would make this a non-starter. Either that or they will be 0-16 every year while relying on nothing but European talent.