Obama voters - buyer's remorse?

[Kodos]

Just curious. Among my family, although we all voted for him, it seems we're for the most part disappointed in Obama as a President. I'm curious to see what percentage of people who voted for Obama wish a different candidate had won.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

By different candidate, do you mean McCain?

[Kodos]

A different choice means anyone who ran. At this point, I wish we had voted Hillary in. At least she would have a spine.

[DaddyTorgo]

Maybe you should edit your poll choices to reflect that? Can you do that even?

[albionmoonlight]

There are, of course, things that I would change. But I think that, considering the scorched earth policies of the GOP, he has managed to get a lot done.

DADT has ended. We don't torture as an official policy anymore. Health Care Reform was not perfect, but anything to get us closer to a sane system is good. Great Depression II was diverted into a Great Recession. Osama is dead and Al Queda is on the ropes.

As shitty as things are, things could still be worse.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Maybe you should edit your poll choices to reflect that? Can you do that even?

I don't think I can do that.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I voted for Obama over McCain, and would do that again. But even in 2008 he wasn't my preferred candidate by a longshot.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

There are, of course, things that I would change. But I think that, considering the scorched earth policies of the GOP, he has managed to get a lot done.

DADT has ended. We don't torture as an official policy anymore. Health Care Reform was not perfect, but anything to get us closer to a sane system is good. Great Depression II was diverted into a Great Recession. Osama is dead and Al Queda is on the ropes.

As shitty as things are, things could still be worse.

I'll admit that he has accomplished some good things despite Republican efforts. But it seems like he has tried too hard to work with Republicans rather than push a more liberal agenda. His negotiating skills seem lacking. On health care for example, his first proposal ruled out the public option. His first proposal starts where he should be negotiating to get to in the end, rather than asking for more than he wants initially then bargaining to get to a better middle ground.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Kodos

A different choice means anyone who ran. At this point, I wish we had voted Hillary in. At least she would have a spine.

I don't buy this at all. She didn't have a spine when it was time for vote for the Iraq War or the Patriot Act. Hillary's chief strategist Mark Penn is certainly no liberal and has argued that the Dems should've moved further to the right after the midterms just like Bill Clinton did in 1994. Hilary's record shows that she is a pragmatic politician and I bet she would've governed fairly similarly to Obama.

Make no mistake about it, there is a long list of people I think would make better Presidents than Obama (with Howard Dean and Russ Feingold at the top), but Hilary certainly isn't one of them.

[DanGarion]

I don't think there are enough choices. There should be a "I voted for Obama, and don't think things would be drastically different if I voted for someone else" option.

Because that is the one I would have choose and I can't choose any other option because it doesn't fit me.

[I. J. Reilly]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I don't think there are enough choices. There should be a "I voted for Obama, and don't think things would be drastically different if I voted for someone else" option.

Because that is the one I would have choose and I can't choose any other option because it doesn't fit me.

This. Anyone with a D behind their name the last three years would have been treated the same way by the House Republicans. At times I've thought Obama was pulling his punches trying to maintain a "civil" dialogue, but in the end this hasn't been about presidential style but about GOP strategy. A strategy that has worked pretty well so far for them, just not the country.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by I. J. Reilly

This. Anyone with a D behind their name the last three years would have been treated the same way by the House Republicans. At times I've thought Obama was pulling his punches trying to maintain a "civil" dialogue, but in the end this hasn't been about presidential style but about GOP strategy. A strategy that has worked pretty well so far for them, just not the country.

Agreed, but I am even thinking broader. If it was a Rep, we'd probably still be in a very similar situation... IMO.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

There are, of course, things that I would change. But I think that, considering the scorched earth policies of the GOP, he has managed to get a lot done.

DADT has ended. We don't torture as an official policy anymore. Health Care Reform was not perfect, but anything to get us closer to a sane system is good. Great Depression II was diverted into a Great Recession. Osama is dead and Al Queda is on the ropes.

As shitty as things are, things could still be worse.

Pretty much sums up my feelings as well.

[I. J. Reilly]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Agreed, but I am even thinking broader. If it was a Rep, we'd probably still be in a very similar situation... IMO.

I'm not sure about that. If the Repub's had to run on the economy in 2012 I think they would have supported a much bigger stimulus package. Who knows how much that would have cut the unemployment rate though.

[Flasch186]

The GOP wouldve supported bigger spending?! I just want to be sure I understand their stance 2.5 years ago versus today because if you're saying that with the GOP in charge, to help save the economy it's bigger spending needed yet with the DEM in charge its derail the economy through austerity, for the eventual gain at the poll booth. Is that what you're insinuating?

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I voted for Obama over McCain, and would do that again. But even in 2008 he wasn't my preferred candidate by a longshot.

This. I was very much a Hillary supporter.

[ISiddiqui]

I didn't vote for Obama in 2008, but I will over the current crop of Republicans (I would have had a hard choice if Christie entered the race, but I'm glad he didn't - Governors should at least finish their 1st term).

[Toddzilla]

I supported Obama 100% through the primaries and general election, but given how absolutely weak willed and spineless he's been standing up to the opposition party, I'd have supported another progressive candidate instead.

God only knows how deep in the shit we'd be if McCain had won

[Kodos]

If the Republicans could put forth someone who isn't insane, I'd consider voting for them. Not sure who that would be though... Powell?

[panerd]

Voted for Barr. At the time didn't mind Obama as the second best candidate. Much like the Nobel Prize committee I thought we would see a scaling back of the American Empire instead of a "cutback" that involved more troops in the Middle East. Also thought we might have some leadership on things like the Patriot Act and even the pipe dream of a candidate taking on the failed drug war and phony war on internet poker.

2012: Will vote for Ron Paul or Gary Johnson if they get the GOP nomination. (Obviously this won't happen) Will then vote for Ron Paul or Gary Johnson if they get the lib nomination. Final step will probably sit out instead of voting some token Libertarian candidate like Barr again.

Caveat: If some religious wacko like Perry gets the nod may actually consider a vote for Obama to save 4 years of that nonsense plus gridlock in DC is preferable to the GOP thinking they have any sort of mandate.

[Warhammer]

Obama should not have governed further left. Had he done so, the Dems would have suffered even more during the midterms. People forget, we are a center-right country. Obama was elected because he was not Bush. Most people thought McCain would be GWBII. No one wanted that.

Once Obama was elected, he governed left. DADT and Healthcare Reform are left initiatives. Plus, if you want to say that he averted a Depression, credit for that should probably go to Bush, since he was the one who got the ball rolling on that. Also, getting Bin Laden was something anyone else would have done in his place. That said, I think TARP and the bailouts have not helped the economy much, and that a harder fall would have been more painful, but would probably have been much more beneficial in the long run. I think we are headed for another recession (and have said so for the past 6 months at the least) in the near future (my prediction was/is 3rd/4th qtr of this year). Also, people want to give him credit for things that he merely followed the path laid out by Bush. The only credit there should be not stopping those policies.

The problem that Obama has, and it was the same problem Bush had, is he has no idea how to lead. Rather than probing and trying to change people's minds, he merely tried to ram it through Congress. I have seen very little of Obama getting out in front of an issue and selling the issue. He promised "Hope and change" and we have very little change and many have little to no hope.

Now, many will say that the Republicans have played hardball, that is no different than how the Democrats were in Bush's second term and similar to pre-9/11 during his first term.

What I find interesting is that Europe is having problems with financing their welfare states, yet we're heading down the same course.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

If McCain had won, yes the GOP would have supported bigger spending. The vast majority of the GOP leadership is still of the big spending, but hide it off the books since illegal wars don't count, neocon variety. The only reason there's been any push against that is the original, grass roots version of the Tea Party that arose from genuine concern about the economic ramifications of current spending practices. Bush, Cheney, McCain, and Palin all have histories as big spenders. Romney, Perry and most of the current GOP crop do as well.

That's the problem. When I elect a GOP nominee, I want less spending.

[cubboyroy1826]

Wow I guess I am in the minority in thinking that the Obama years have been a train wreck, and not because of the Republicans. So if a Republican had been in office and we were at the same point with the economy etc would the majority here still have the same feelings? I doubt it. Short of catching Osama which I cannot really give him 100% credit I struggle to find anything good about the Obama administration so far. Health reform is needed but not in the Obamacare version.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

The last 12 years have been a trainwreck.

[cubboyroy1826]

I will agree with part of the Bush years being a mess as well. I actually think you could back to the Clinton years as well. The free for all in financial industry got its start back then. I was not happy with a lot of what Bush did or allowed to go on as well.

[Edward64]

Definitely Obama/Biden over McCain/Palin.

Would have seriously considered Romney if he would have pushed for real Healthcare reform (but he wouldn't have even if he had won).

I think Obama has done pretty well foreign policy wise all things considering and no one jokes about being weak and lobbing over cruise/tomahawk missles anymore (ala Clinton/Gore era).

Economy wise, no doubt it sucks. Although he doesn't get all the blame this malaise and second dip happened on his watch. However, I am not convinced any other candidate could have done better.

[cubboyroy1826]

Being a Dem and saying you have been happy with Obamas time in office is like being a Repub and saying you were happy with the George W years. No way you can honestly say either one. Now I can understand if you still would prefer Obama over the Republican because this is just a party statement. I would have preferred GW over the Dem options even though I was not happy with a lot of what went on.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

There are, of course, things that I would change. But I think that, considering the scorched earth policies of the GOP, he has managed to get a lot done.

DADT has ended. We don't torture as an official policy anymore. Health Care Reform was not perfect, but anything to get us closer to a sane system is good. Great Depression II was diverted into a Great Recession. Osama is dead and Al Queda is on the ropes.

As shitty as things are, things could still be worse.

Add the supreme court nominees to this and it gets a big plus one from me.

[JediKooter]

Given the same choices, I'd vote for Obama.

I can't really blame Obama for all the economic woes that we have today. The problem is too multifaced to blame it on one person or party. Though a good portion of the blame, in my opinion, can be laid in the republicans lap for having a "Make Obama a one term president at all costs and damn the expense of everything else" policy. It also doesn't help that the democrats are spineless.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

There are, of course, things that I would change. But I think that, considering the scorched earth policies of the GOP, he has managed to get a lot done.

DADT has ended. We don't torture as an official policy anymore. Health Care Reform was not perfect, but anything to get us closer to a sane system is good. Great Depression II was diverted into a Great Recession. Osama is dead and Al Queda is on the ropes.

As shitty as things are, things could still be worse.

The bolded part is the key for me.

The thing is, the Republicans' scorched earth policies/insanity (take your pick) haven't been about, necessarily, policy disagreement (although there's some of that). It's been about specifically "defeating Obama." That's pretty much the prism through which you can view the Republicans' decisions in the last two years.

Whether or not those decisions have also fit the party platform has been fairly well irrelevant (as you can see with the Libya thing; odd how extended foreign adventures without a formal declaration of war wasn't an issue for the eight years before he took office, huh?).

[SackAttack]

Dola,

That doesn't mean I wouldn't vote for a 'sane Republican,' if one existed and the election were held today. What it does mean is that the Republicans, in the last two years, haven't done a damn thing to make me regret my vote from 2008.

[lungs]

Voted for him in the primary, voted for him in the general, and will vote for him again.

From a personal standpoint, I wish he would've finally tackled immigration reform but it seems like that has become a wedge issue where rhetoric gets in the way of any logical compromise (guest worker program, path to citizenship, along with a BIG increase in border security). Admittedly, with unemployment where it is, a guest worker program wouldn't be all that popular. But with unemployment where it is, we are still seeing fruits and vegetables rotting in the fields in places like Georgia and Alabama that have enacted strict immigration controls because the Feds are doing nothing (which I'm fine with, so long as it doesn't happen in Wisconsin!)

[JediKooter]

Piggy backing on what Lungs said. Lets play a game. The first person to guess the answer correctly, gets 3,000 internet points.

Regarding immigration, who said this:

Rather than talking about putting up a fence, why don’t we work out some recognition of our mutual problems? Make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit. And then, while they’re working and earning here they can pay taxes here. And then when they want to go back, they can go back. Open the borders both ways.

[cartman]

Zombie Reagan

[Dutch]

GWB

[Warhammer]

I believe that was Reagan.

I have no problem either way with immigration (we can always use lower cost labor). My problem is the half way issue we have with it. Either open the border and live with the consequences, or enforce the laws we have on the books.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Piggy backing on what Lungs said. Lets play a game. The first person to guess the answer correctly, gets 3,000 internet points.

Regarding immigration, who said this:

Rather than talking about putting up a fence, why don’t we work out some recognition of our mutual problems? Make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit. And then, while they’re working and earning here they can pay taxes here. And then when they want to go back, they can go back. Open the borders both ways.

Dick Cheney? I dunno, I know immigration was one area that I really lined up well with W on. And I think Rick Perry is reasonable on it too. Texans have a good understanding of a large Hispanic population. My grandparents used to winter in the Rio Grande Valley and the second generation Mexican immigrants have really done well. And I see it with second generation Mexicans even here in Wisconsin. They speak English, go to school and act as American as you and I. Same as my Grandmother that grew up speaking German and went to a German language school (where they also learned English and so do the Mexican kids today)

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by cartman

Zombie Reagan

Close. It was pre zombie Reagan. But, I think that qualifies for the 3,000 internet points since they are of the same flesh.

Originally Posted by Dutch

GWB

No. But his dad said this:

"Look, I’d like to see something done about the illegal alien problem that would be so sensitive and so understanding about labor needs and human needs that that problem wouldn’t come up. But today, if those people are here, I would reluctantly say I think they would get whatever it is, you know, that society is giving to their neighbors. But the problem has to be solved. The problem has to be solved. Because, as we have made illegal some kinds of labor that I’d like to see legal, we’re doing two things, we’re creating a whole society of really honorable, decent, family-loving people that are in violation of the law and secondly we’re exacerbating relations with Mexico. [...] If they’re living here, I don’t want to see six and eight year old kids being made totally uneducated and made to feel like they’re living totally outside the law. These are good people, strong people."


Both quotes were from the same 1980 GOP debate. Don't exactly know which one though.

[lungs]

I do think the parties kind of split when immigration gets brought up. There are xenophobic elements in both parties. Republicans play on the immigrants are criminals angle while Democrats use the immigrants steal your jobs and drive down wages angle. An odd coalition but they've done a good job at blocking anything and everything from getting done.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by lungs

I do think the parties kind of split when immigration gets brought up. There are xenophobic elements in both parties. Republicans play on the immigrants are criminals angle while Democrats use the immigrants steal your jobs and drive down wages angle. An odd coalition but they've done a good job at blocking anything and everything from getting done.

It is weird indeed. I guess the reason that immigrant workers don't really bother me is, I've known some (granted small sample size) and all they wanted was a better life for them and their families. And, I don't really see anyone fighting each other to get those farm worker jobs, even in this down economy or see high school kids complaining that all the summer jobs picking tomatoes are taken by illegals.

[Raiders Army]

Well, Obama has certainly set himself up for success in the future past his presidential reign. He has already won the Nobel Peace Prize. Kudos to him.

[lungs]

Didn't mean to turn this into a immigration thread, but I think it's one area Obama could've found consensus across aisles.... but obviously the economic situation kind of sucked the life out of that idea.

Just kind of sucks for me, having to work in a grey area of the law all the time. For those that don't know, I employ Hispanics on my farm. They all turn in proper documentation to me that I know is likely fake. But I turn that all in to the government, and they do nothing at all. Counterfeit documentation is REALLY good, and almost impossible to distinguish.

Total number of Americans to stop by looking for work in the past few years: 2

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by lungs

Total number of Americans to stop by looking for work in the past few years: 2

Out of curiosity, how many eastern europeans?

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Out of curiosity, how many eastern europeans?

Zero, we used to employ Russians during the 1990's but the visas dried up after 9/11 and almost all Eastern Europeans in the area work in tourism (Wisconsin Dells).

FWIW our crew that deals with crops is 100% American as Americans absolutely LOVE driving heavy machinery. It's getting people to help me on my end dealing specifically with cows. A lot of guys I hire actually come from farms in Mexico and Nicaragua and/or use their experience from working for me and start farms there.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by lungs

Zero, we used to employ Russians during the 1990's but the visas dried up after 9/11 and almost all Eastern Europeans in the area work in tourism (Wisconsin Dells).

FWIW our crew that deals with crops is 100% American as Americans absolutely LOVE driving heavy machinery. It's getting people to help me on my end dealing specifically with cows. A lot of guys I hire actually come from farms in Mexico and Nicaragua and/or use their experience from working for me and start farms there.

Ahhhh ok. I talked to a pistachio farmer from Fresno a couple of years ago and he was telling me the big influx of workers was from eastern europe. Looks like that has changed then.

Come on. Red necks love driving big noisy things.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Come on. Red necks love driving big noisy things.

Oh, they do for sure! They don't like being abused by animals though! (and in turn are more likely to abuse them back)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cubboyroy1826

like being a Repub and saying you were happy with the George W years.

I was pretty darned happy with his performance in the first term, does that count?

[TroyF]

I did not vote for Obama. (nor McCain)

I think this is a train wreck. We had health care reform we can't pay for. His stimulus package worked miserably anfd now he wants to replicate it in the new jobs bill. Him (along with most other people) blame the Republicans scorched earth policy without taking into account it's the same damned strategy the deems hav used for 8 years now. (Anyone but Bush, right?)

I fully understand he came into a tough situation, but I really don't see anything to indicate that situation is any better. Is that really too much to expect? At the time of his election, dems controlled the house (256-178) and the senate (55-41-2). Bush never held that type of majority in either section.

I don't think GW was great, good, or even average. But o pretend the Republicans arethe only ones who play dirty pool is more than disingenuous. Just my opinion for what it is worth.