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Old 11-08-2018, 11:12 PM   #14201
PilotMan
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Wait. Is it corruption scandal or election fraud? So confusing!
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:25 PM   #14202
Ksyrup
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larrymcg421 View Post
This is the one I saw...


If you read the instructions and then keep going down the ballot, it's actually the first race to vote on. What's the argument again?! Whatever it is, it's a huge stretch.
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:55 PM   #14203
larrymcg421
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Originally Posted by Ksyrup View Post
If you read the instructions and then keep going down the ballot, it's actually the first race to vote on. What's the argument again?! Whatever it is, it's a huge stretch.

Huh? I'm not making an argument that it's unfair or anything. I'm saying this is more likely the issue than ballots being miscounted, which would work against the Democratic argument. If what I'm saying is true, then Nelson has no chance.
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Old 11-09-2018, 03:15 AM   #14204
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Originally Posted by molson View Post
Yes, but I think Trump did well to make the "trigger" for these protests as convoluted as possible. It's been planned for months for people to take to the streets as soon as the Mueller investigation was shut down. And I think that would have been a legitimately game-changing protest (and I'm someone who is skeptical of the benefit of protests).

But Trump managed to regain some control over the investigation by a means that technically triggered the protest, but did it by firing an unpopular AG. Which led to a bunch of confusion as to whether this was "the moment" for things to really get serious. And to do it the day after the culmination of a very emotional election cycle that resulted in semi-success for Trump's opponents, and....I think, sadly, he has played this perfectly

Fair assessment, but at the same time, he's tapped a guy who's been vocal about believing the investigation should be reined in or even shut down; who wasn't confirmed by the Senate to serve in a post that requires Senate confirmation; and without being able to fall back on "recess appointment" because the Senate isn't in recess.

So whether or not you think he's "played this perfectly," he's still set himself up for a court fight that there is a non-zero chance he loses. Not over whether or not firing Sessions (and let's be clear, requesting his resignation is tantamount to the same thing) constitutes obstruction of justice, but whether he's in violation of the Appointments Clause with the selection of Whitaker.

He can defuse all of that by nominating Whitaker to the role on a permanent basis and getting Senate confirmation, and maybe he even will. There'd still be discontent, but I don't know what else really results from that.

Trying to forge ahead as if nothing's wrong risks getting smacked down in court, and having the courts ALSO throw out any action Whitaker takes in the interim as being an invalid order deriving from an unconstitutional action.
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Old 11-09-2018, 08:00 AM   #14205
Ksyrup
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larrymcg421 View Post
Huh? I'm not making an argument that it's unfair or anything. I'm saying this is more likely the issue than ballots being miscounted, which would work against the Democratic argument. If what I'm saying is true, then Nelson has no chance.

This was in your original post and is what I was referring to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by larrymcg421 View Post
Nelson's claiming that there is a tabulation error, but it seems more likely to be people leaving that race blank because they didn't see it on the ballot.

I don't understand that argument at all. It's the first race on the ballot if you simply follow the ballot by column. How does someone not see it? Also, it's one of the two most high profile races in the state. Even if someone missed it, how does one not say to themselves, "Gee, what about that Scott/Nelson race I saw approximately 5800 commercials for?"
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Old 11-09-2018, 08:44 AM   #14206
GrantDawg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksyrup View Post
This was in your original post and is what I was referring to:



I don't understand that argument at all. It's the first race on the ballot if you simply follow the ballot by column. How does someone not see it? Also, it's one of the two most high profile races in the state. Even if someone missed it, how does one not say to themselves, "Gee, what about that Scott/Nelson race I saw approximately 5800 commercials for?"




Because most people don't read the instructions, and the ones who do will stop once they change language. The first choice most people are going to see is the govenor's race in the middle. Think about people in a crowded room, that have been in line for a long time, and feel rushed. How many are just going to start filling circles as quickly as possible to get done and get out?
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Old 11-09-2018, 08:49 AM   #14207
Ksyrup
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I guess I read things differently than most people, then. Maybe it's because I'm left-handed and view things differently. I would (and did, when looking at that ballot) work from top left down the column to the end, then middle column top to bottom, then right column, then flip it over to see if anything was on the back.
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Old 11-09-2018, 08:54 AM   #14208
GrantDawg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksyrup View Post
I guess I read things differently than most people, then. Maybe it's because I'm left-handed and view things differently. I would (and did, when looking at that ballot) work from top left down the column to the end, then middle column top to bottom, then right column, then flip it over to see if anything was on the back.




I am left handed, and I saw the middle column first. I probably would have eventually noticed there were votes on that bottom left, but I could easily see missing them.
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Old 11-09-2018, 08:57 AM   #14209
GrantDawg
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I will add: in 2000, I ran a poll in Alabama using optical ballots just like this. I remember having to point out a race laid out roughly like this to people all day because voters were regularly missing it.
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Old 11-09-2018, 08:58 AM   #14210
Ksyrup
This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off.
 
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Weird. It's set up in columns, meaning there's a left column, not just a center and right. *shurg*
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Old 11-09-2018, 08:59 AM   #14211
Ksyrup
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In any event, I hope Nelson loses, not because of party affiliation but because I used to work for him (indirectly), and he's the biggest empty suit I've ever personally come across.
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Old 11-09-2018, 09:13 AM   #14212
larrymcg421
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Most people didn't miss it. It's not like there's a 50% drop off, just more of one in that county than anywhere else. Some people just vote the top of ballot and don't even scan to the bottom. I think that's dumb, but it happens.

This isn't an issue for me here in GA since my counties use electronic balloting and just prompt the races in order.
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Old 11-09-2018, 09:29 AM   #14213
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Saying "I personally didn't have trouble following it (especially after being prompted there was some discord about the layout)" and translating that to "therefore absolutely nobody would (especially without any such prompting)" is quite a leap.

I'm not claiming it's a horrible thing, or a fire-able offense... but could that layout contribute to an undervote of a few percent? Absolutely. You wouldn't have to be an absolute numbskull to look at the first column, dismiss it as "the instructions" and just start with the second.
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Old 11-09-2018, 09:34 AM   #14214
Ksyrup
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I didn't make that leap, you did. Our ballot layout was exactly the same kind of 3 column layout here, which I don't think anyone had trouble following.

I'm not even saying it couldn't happen, I'm simply saying it shouldn't happen. How is that race not top of mind for anyone who bothered to vote? It's not like it was your local constable race (which we have - and no one ran for).
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Old 11-09-2018, 09:37 AM   #14215
molson
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Originally Posted by Ksyrup View Post
It's not like it was your local constable race (which we have - and no one ran for).

Your town could have had Constable Ksyrup running the show? That's an opportunity lost.
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Old 11-09-2018, 09:40 AM   #14216
Ksyrup
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I wrote-in the name of a retired Lexington cop who lives in my neighborhood. Although, I'm honestly kinda curious what happens when no one runs. Maybe a local board appoints someone, I don't know.

If I'm the only person to write in a candidate, and he gets the only vote, does he win? Is there some sort of minimum threshold?
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Old 11-09-2018, 09:49 AM   #14217
digamma
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Not sure what's worse, lying about the not knowing the guy you just appointed as acting attorney general or actually not knowing the guy you just appointed as acting attorney general.
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Old 11-09-2018, 09:51 AM   #14218
Ksyrup
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It might be true, in the sense that he's not Rosenstein.
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Old 11-09-2018, 10:19 AM   #14219
JPhillips
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Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
Saying "I personally didn't have trouble following it (especially after being prompted there was some discord about the layout)" and translating that to "therefore absolutely nobody would (especially without any such prompting)" is quite a leap.

I'm not claiming it's a horrible thing, or a fire-able offense... but could that layout contribute to an undervote of a few percent? Absolutely. You wouldn't have to be an absolute numbskull to look at the first column, dismiss it as "the instructions" and just start with the second.

Why are the instructions even on the ballot? The ballot should be clean of other text and the instructions should be separate and posted in each voting booth.
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Old 11-09-2018, 10:50 AM   #14220
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Originally Posted by Ksyrup View Post
I guess I read things differently than most people, then. Maybe it's because I'm left-handed and view things differently. I would (and did, when looking at that ballot) work from top left down the column to the end, then middle column top to bottom, then right column, then flip it over to see if anything was on the back.

I double check my ballot to make sure I did not miss anything.
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Old 11-09-2018, 10:55 AM   #14221
Ksyrup
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Me too. And the whole paper ballot thing, I am always paranoid about not coloring in the boxes enough, or accidentally going outside the lines, so I usually go over them multiple times very carefully. I think I had 3 old people sit down next to me and finish before I did. I am assuming they just straight R'd it and left.
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Last edited by Ksyrup : 11-09-2018 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 11-09-2018, 11:05 AM   #14222
JPhillips
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Originally Posted by digamma View Post
Not sure what's worse, lying about the not knowing the guy you just appointed as acting attorney general or actually not knowing the guy you just appointed as acting attorney general.

It's the name the Ouija board spelled. Trump just listened to what the spirits told him.
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Old 11-09-2018, 11:12 AM   #14223
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Originally Posted by Ksyrup View Post
Me too. And the whole paper ballot thing, I am always paranoid about not coloring in the boxes enough, or accidentally going outside the lines, so I usually go over them multiple times very carefully. I think I had 3 old people sit down next to me and finish before I did. I am assuming they just straight R'd it and left.

I am almost OCD over those damn lines LOL
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Old 11-09-2018, 11:40 AM   #14224
Edward64
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But at least they're sticking with it after a pause of a few days. Keep f-ing that chicken Fox.

Started back up.

Migrant caravan to leave Mexico City for US border | TheHill
Quote:
A group of thousands of Central American migrants on Friday will leave Mexico City and continue their journey toward the U.S. as the Trump administration takes steps to limit their ability to request asylum.

The migrants, who number between 4,000 and 5,000, voted Thursday night to resume walking to the U.S. border Friday, according to USA Today.

The vote follows a Thursday declaration from the White House that it would seek to clamp down on asylum claims at the U.S.-Mexico border.

Under current law, migrants can request asylum either by presenting themselves at legal ports of entry or by sidestepping those ports and crossing the border illegally. The new rules would disallow those migrants who cross illegally from seeking asylum and instead place them in expedited deportation proceedings.
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Old 11-09-2018, 12:45 PM   #14225
CU Tiger
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This ballot thing fascinates me.
Ive only ever voted in SC. And as I think we all know, the concepts of South Carolina and technologically advanced civilization are pretty much mutually exclusive.


But since 2000, in SC they have had these electronic ballots that look like a huge glorified tablet.
The idea that places are still using a paper ballot and scantron bubble sheets is mind boggling to me.
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Old 11-09-2018, 12:53 PM   #14226
Ksyrup
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In our podunk town, in my specific precinct, we had one electronic machine and 6 desks for manual scantron ballots. You could either wait in the line for 1 machine or the line with 5 more opportunities to (theoretically) get done quicker. I wasn't in there long enough to figure out how much quicker one line was going than the other, I just did the paper ballot.
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:10 PM   #14227
stevew
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We had 4 of those iPad looking machines.
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:11 PM   #14228
BYU 14
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Originally Posted by Ksyrup View Post
In our podunk town, in my specific precinct, we had one electronic machine and 6 desks for manual scantron ballots. You could either wait in the line for 1 machine or the line with 5 more opportunities to (theoretically) get done quicker. I wasn't in there long enough to figure out how much quicker one line was going than the other, I just did the paper ballot.

We have no such excuse in Phoenix
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:30 PM   #14229
CU Tiger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksyrup View Post
In our podunk town, in my specific precinct, we had one electronic machine and 6 desks for manual scantron ballots. You could either wait in the line for 1 machine or the line with 5 more opportunities to (theoretically) get done quicker. I wasn't in there long enough to figure out how much quicker one line was going than the other, I just did the paper ballot.




I live in a town with a population of 589 (obviously not all voting age since my one neighbor has 8 kids under 18 - lol)


We had...I'm viewing the room in my head and seeing 7 ballot machines....but I remember voting "in" machine #8
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:30 PM   #14230
ISiddiqui
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Originally Posted by CU Tiger View Post
But since 2000, in SC they have had these electronic ballots that look like a huge glorified tablet.
The idea that places are still using a paper ballot and scantron bubble sheets is mind boggling to me.

I think for a lot of those places, they like having a paper copy of the votes.
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:31 PM   #14231
JonInMiddleGA
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Originally Posted by Ksyrup View Post
I wrote-in the name of a retired Lexington cop who lives in my neighborhood. Although, I'm honestly kinda curious what happens when no one runs. Maybe a local board appoints someone, I don't know.

If I'm the only person to write in a candidate, and he gets the only vote, does he win? Is there some sort of minimum threshold?

Varies by state & jurisdiction.

I believe in most cases at least at higher levels, write-in votes for candidates that have not gone through the process to be certified as actual qualified candidates are simply discarded/uncounted.

Otherwise Mickey Mouse could end up with 314 offices in 47 states.
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:40 PM   #14232
Kodos
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I think paper ballots make a lot of sense from the perspective that they can't be hacked by foreign actors. Plus, it gives you a literal paper trail if things go awry.
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:47 PM   #14233
Edward64
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I dont' remember seeing a stat like this before. Trending in the right direction but still more needed.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/09/gun-...-defy-nra.html
Quote:
After heavy spending by both sides of the issue, gun control proponents picked up seats in House midterm races as gun rights advocates lost ground.

Based on House voting records tracked by the National Rifle Association, more than two dozen gun rights proponents won't be returning to the next Congress.

Meanwhile, House Democrats expanded the number of gun control advocates in their caucus. The new new majority includes dozens of candidates who support gun control, including Lucy McBath in Georgia, whose 17-year-old son was fatally shot in 2012 and who made gun violence the centerpiece of her campaign.

At least 17 newly elected House Democrats back stricter gun laws, including Jennifer Wexton, Abigail Spanberger and Elaine Luria in Virginia, who defeated incumbents backed by the National Rifle Association. In Colorado, Democrat Jason Crow beat GOP Rep. Mike Coffman, who received an A rating from the NRA and more than $37,000 in campaign contributions from the group.
:
Sixty-one percent of voters who responded to VoteCast, a survey of the electorate conducted by The Associated Press, said they support stricter gun laws, compared with 8 percent who said they should be loosened. Eighty-six percent of those supporting Democratic candidates backed stricter gun laws, along with 34 percent of those who supported Republicans.
:
House Democrats are already promising to take action on gun control following a recent string of mass shootings, including a late-night assault at a California bar that killed 12 people. Those measures including expanded background checks and a ban on assault-style weapons are likely to reach the House floor when Democrats retake control after eight years of Republican rule.

I'll wait to see the details on the proposals but status quo is not acceptable.
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:53 PM   #14234
Edward64
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Originally Posted by GrantDawg View Post
I am left handed, and I saw the middle column first. I probably would have eventually noticed there were votes on that bottom left, but I could easily see missing them.

I'm left handed also and I also saw the middle column first.

It probably did cause some confusion for people new/not used to voting paper ballots or possibly older folks.

My county was electronic so no problem here.
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Old 11-09-2018, 03:54 PM   #14235
CrimsonFox
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https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/08/bria...ey-abrams.html

Man who orchestrated brilliant voter suppression tactics has resigned.

whee

Many voting machines were just locked up and hand ballots were not authorized.

Gotta love it.
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Old 11-09-2018, 03:56 PM   #14236
CrimsonFox
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I think paper ballots make a lot of sense from the perspective that they can't be hacked by foreign actors. Plus, it gives you a literal paper trail if things go awry.

In Washington, we were mailed our ballot along with a magazine of every candidate who pitches themselves in their blurb. It saved so much time. And you just mailed it in without having to stamp it.
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Old 11-09-2018, 04:02 PM   #14237
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Originally Posted by CrimsonFox View Post
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/08/bria...ey-abrams.html

Man who orchestrated brilliant voter suppression tactics has resigned.

whee

Many voting machines were just locked up and hand ballots were not authorized.

Gotta love it.

Well, he's gonna be the governor now so he's got much bigger suppressions to deal with now.
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Old 11-09-2018, 04:06 PM   #14238
CrimsonFox
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Well, he's gonna be the governor now so he's got much bigger suppressions to deal with now.

I wonder what happens to a state when their governor-elect is sent to prison. Asking for a friend.
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Old 11-09-2018, 04:28 PM   #14239
bronconick
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Originally Posted by Edward64 View Post
I dont' remember seeing a stat like this before. Trending in the right direction but still more needed.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/09/gun-...-defy-nra.html


I'll wait to see the details on the proposals but status quo is not acceptable.

The NRA was claiming near bankruptcy over the last year, meaning unless they're using Rubles they couldn't buy as many seats.
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Old 11-09-2018, 04:29 PM   #14240
bronconick
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I wonder what happens to a state when their governor-elect is sent to prison. Asking for a friend.

Probably have to ask Illinois for advice.
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Old 11-09-2018, 08:43 PM   #14241
Thomkal
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Sinema's lead now up to 20,000 in AZ, but still more to count there and she may lose some of that lead. Rouda has been declared the winner against Rohrbacker. Another CA Democrat, Josh Harder has pulled ahead of his opponent after being behind most of the tally.
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Old 11-09-2018, 09:10 PM   #14242
bronconick
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GOP: Stop counting the ballots in Florida, where we're ahead, but count every last ballot in Arizona, where we're behind.
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Old 11-10-2018, 12:55 AM   #14243
RainMaker
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She does have something to gain. She would be a "hero" to the #metoo movement, the Dems will hold her up (for at least a while), lots of attention, probably a nice book deal etc.

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Originally Posted by Edward64 View Post
You repeatedly say "she has nothing to gain from this". I'm pointing out she does. You may not think the pros outweigh the cons but I personally would be willing to take your above con-list in exchange for $1M and to be face/darling of a major movement.

(Add the gofundme to the list of pros also but not sure how much $ is in there right now).

Now - I am not saying she is doing this for money. I don't think she has proven her allegation however I can easily believe an intoxicated Kavanaugh did what she said he did. I'm just saying she does have "pros" from going public.

These posts aging real well.


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Old 11-10-2018, 03:27 AM   #14244
CrimsonFox
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Originally Posted by bronconick View Post
GOP: Stop counting the ballots in Florida, where we're ahead, but count every last ballot in Arizona, where we're behind.



"uh oh , Doctor it seems we've traveled back to 2000. There are people protesting and banging on things shouting for them to stop counting ballots of some sort. Why would they want to STOP counting ballots in an election?"
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Old 11-10-2018, 05:29 AM   #14245
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The one thing I do agree with Trump on is that it is an absolute shower that they are not able to count the votes within 24 hours, let alone 4 days.

The rest of his comments are the usual blinkered invective, but something needs to be done to prevent any possible inference of manipulation (either way). With district gerrymandering such as that posted earlier and delayed votes, it does emit echoes of Tammany Hall era politics.
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Old 11-10-2018, 08:07 AM   #14246
Edward64
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Originally Posted by RainMaker View Post
These posts aging real well.

It's been < 2 months. Let's have it really age and come back to revisit in 2-3 years.

There were the RCP and Slate links in the NPR artcle which also provided more context. Admittedly the RCP is something a right-winger would write but it does lay out some "facts". The Slate is more balanced while referencing the RCP article.

(Thanks for including the last sentence in the second quote. I still stand by that)
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Old 11-10-2018, 08:16 AM   #14247
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Originally Posted by AlexB View Post
The one thing I do agree with Trump on is that it is an absolute shower that they are not able to count the votes within 24 hours, let alone 4 days.

Anyone know why isn't there electronic voting in FL/Broward?
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Old 11-10-2018, 08:57 AM   #14248
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Originally Posted by AlexB View Post
The one thing I do agree with Trump on is that it is an absolute shower that they are not able to count the votes within 24 hours, let alone 4 days.

The rest of his comments are the usual blinkered invective, but something needs to be done to prevent any possible inference of manipulation (either way). With district gerrymandering such as that posted earlier and delayed votes, it does emit echoes of Tammany Hall era politics.

This happens every election, it's just that the margins are great enough that it doesn't effect the outcome. There's currently no evidence suggesting anything other than a typical election tally in both AZ and FL.
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Old 11-10-2018, 09:25 AM   #14249
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dola

So far today Trump has threatened to pull federal firefighting funds from CA and cancelled a trip to the American WW1 cemetery because it is raining.
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Old 11-10-2018, 09:47 AM   #14250
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Originally Posted by JPhillips View Post
This happens every election, it's just that the margins are great enough that it doesn't effect the outcome. There's currently no evidence suggesting anything other than a typical election tally in both AZ and FL.

Just because it happens in every election doesn’t mean it is acceptable in a developed nation.
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