Werewolf LXXXVIII: Game Thread

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I also don't necessarily want to see today turn into a game of "follow the vote of the angel" because that isn't helping us understand the motivations of the villagers/demons in the game.

I am pretty sure that right now we're just as interested in seeing other people's opinion of who are good targets, and we want to get discussion going rather than just dictate whom to go after. I would love to see who different people think are likely suspects including interested in who you think are good suspects for today.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

It is already noon (CST) and we do not have any votes or actions in. I know that Friday's can get pretty slow around here so I'm hoping we can get some movement here.

Someone earlier put a vote on Kwhit that I commented I didn't have a huge problem with. Based on traditional WW game play, looking at voting records is an ideal way to try to progress with discussion and Kwhit and yourself (Hoopsguy) are kind of singled out in the middle of a group of all trusted players. Since you seem to be providing far more input right now than Kwhit, it didn't seem like a bad place to look.

Note that I am not endorsing this vote with any other hidden knowledge, just saying that it seemed like a decent strategy of somewhere that could be looked at for votes.

[PackerFanatic]

I am willing to work on walls and it will get done.

[hoopsguy]

I think Jackal and DT putting their second votes onto the Cathedral when Telle/RealDeal was defined looks bad. Particularly Jackal, who never put out any vote. That seems like someone who is trying to avoid attention.

Both PackerFanatic and KWhit have come up, and their actions were pretty similar early on Day 2 wanting to look somewhere besides Telle. However, PF followed it up with a quick vote on RD and KWhit followed with a tying vote on Telle. I think KWhit looks better than PF out of those two.

My vote(s) will likely be on one of these people today.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

I am willing to work on walls and it will get done.

Cool, then lets each put an action down on walls now and hope one more person follows.

WORK ON WALLS

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I am pretty sure that right now we're just as interested in seeing other people's opinion of who are good targets, and we want to get discussion going rather than just dictate whom to go after. I would love to see who different people think are likely suspects including interested in who you think are good suspects for today.

Hey just noticed I'm now a "Head Coach" instead of a "Coordinator". I wasn't sure when it occured so looked at post count history, and evidently this was my 15,000th post. Guess it happened here as it should be for me.

[PackerFanatic]

WORK ON WALLS

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I think Jackal and DT putting their second votes onto the Cathedral when Telle/RealDeal was defined looks bad. Particularly Jackal, who never put out any vote. That seems like someone who is trying to avoid attention.

I can't speak to DT, but when I put in my second work order it looked like it was going to be a runaway, and I don't think reveals had been made yet. Today I will vote for someone, leaning towards KWhit, PF, or Pass.

I'm not trying to avoid attention, I just haven't had anything useful to add, nor do I have a role with great impact.

[The Jackal]

You'd think I could send my nuns out to spy on people, but no, apparently not.

[hoopsguy]

Hmm, I'm quite sure it was NOT a runaway when DT put in his second order last night.

Jackal, did you believe Telle yesterday when you were around?

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

DT's info on Telle started the action, but his play seemed weird from that point on. Like he didn't want to be revealing the info, or didn't want to be responsible for how it shook out?

First, thanks for doing that recap. Helps out a lot. Second, I was a bit confused by DT's play yesterday as well, but I can see where he was coming from. All the info he had was that Telle was lying, not that she was a demon. I would hate to be responsible for lynching an angel because of incomplete information, so I have no problem with him trying to cover his ass. I would have made the same play.

Jonathan would be getting quite a bit of pressure from me right now if RendeR had not cleared him. Late votes for people opposing Telle each of the last two days.

Agreed. I have not played well at all.

Pass committed both actions to building early in the day. Acted late D1 with double vote for work on Cathedral. Called out Telle on her bluff at end of D1, but was already committed to building.

Pass is starting to make me scratch my head. Following Telle's "reveal" he was all for lynching her and tried to get me to switch my vote to her. He couldn't vote that day because he had already submitted his work actions, but why not vote for her on the next day? If you're so sure that her reveal was fake, why put in the early work actions again to handicap yourself from voting? I understand needing to get your actions in early in case you can't check in prior to deadline, but I would at least leave myself the option to vote if I need to. Place a work action and keep your second action in reserve. Saying that you think Telle was lying and then to not vote for her (after trying to get someone to switch their vote to her the previous day) or even vote at all, is very odd to me.

[The Jackal]

When I made my second move I believe I said I didn't feel strongly one way or the other, which I didn't. By the end of the day I figured it was the right choice but at the time (I wasnt sure Id be around at deadline) I figured it would help the village more for me to just build the Cathedral instead of leaving an unsure vote hanging out there.

[The Jackal]

I should clarify - By the end of the day I figured it was the right choice - by that I meant lynching Telle.

[The Jackal]

And I just checked, it was not a runaway when I put in my second action (at 8:43), it was 6-4, so I'll back off that.

[The Jackal]

I think I'll lock myself into voting right now as I've only worked on the Cathedral thus far, putting each on a candidate I have suspicion in.

VOTE PF
VOTE PASS

[The Jackal]

Threadkilling ftw.

[Tyrith]

Well, I'm not really a fan of the vote splitting play because of the reduced pressure it puts on suspects. At least someone is voting, though. And I really would like to figure out what is going on with Pass.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

When I made my second move I believe I said I didn't feel strongly one way or the other, which I didn't. By the end of the day I figured it was the right choice but at the time (I wasnt sure Id be around at deadline) I figured it would help the village more for me to just build the Cathedral instead of leaving an unsure vote hanging out there.

That's the thing - I disagree that "leaving an unsure vote hanging out there" helps the village more. We had an either/or situation, so picking a side helps us understand your thought process. Working on the cathedral, while having some in-game value, doesn't help us much in trying to understand your motivations and acting accordingly.

[RealDeal]

I want to start this with the caveat that we don't have definitive information, so don't take this as gospel (no pun intended).

However, Alan T. and I believe that Hoops is a demon.

We would prefer not to use all our votes to hang him tonight, since we would prefer to work on spiritual health, but we will reserve them as necessary if the vote seems to be going sidewise.

You guys are going to have questions as to why we think the way we do, and I can already tell you now you aren't going to get very satisfying answers from us. It is possible we are wrong, and we aren't in a position to tell you exactly why we think we are right. So take this for what's it worth.

[hoopsguy]

I guess I would like to know why you guys think that I'm a demon. It isn't going to be much fun trying to argue this afternoon against the two most "cleared" players in the game.

DT, if you have the ability to scan another statement I think you can find several statements I've made this game that should be worthy of testing.

Normally I would use the argument of "scan me" but we seem to have lost a few of those roles already. So what else can I do to prove my villager status?

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

I want to start this with the caveat that we don't have definitive information, so don't take this as gospel (no pun intended).

However, Alan T. and I believe that Hoops is a demon.

We would prefer not to use all our votes to hang him tonight, since we would prefer to work on spiritual health, but we will reserve them as necessary if the vote seems to be going sidewise.

You guys are going to have questions as to why we think the way we do, and I can already tell you now you aren't going to get very satisfying answers from us. It is possible we are wrong, and we aren't in a position to tell you exactly why we think we are right. So take this for what's it worth.

First, it's worth noting that you and Alan are the two people I'm putting the most trust in this game (I said that earlier).

With that said though, I just want to make sure I have this right. Basically you want all of us to vote for hoops, but you guys don't want to do it and you don't want to tell us why we should.

I'm not ruling out that I'd still do it, but uhm, yeah that seems a tad needy

[hoopsguy]

I'm just not sure how I should respond. Normally this would have me working out scenarios where the person leading the charge is a wolf, but we're pretty certain that Alan + Real Deal are angels.

I think it is way too early in the game for them to be exercising some kind of independent "win conditions" that are anti-village.

Bottom line, if it was not me that they were gunning for I would take a flier on the vote if they say that they have good reasons for it.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

First, it's worth noting that you and Alan are the two people I'm putting the most trust in this game (I said that earlier).

With that said though, I just want to make sure I have this right. Basically you want all of us to vote for hoops, but you guys don't want to do it and you don't want to tell us why we should.

I'm not ruling out that I'd still do it, but uhm, yeah that seems a tad needy

There are three goals for today from the good guy perspective:

1) Lynch a demon if we can find one
2) Finish the work on the Walls in the Cathedral
3) Work on safeguarding the spiritual health of the village.


Of those, #2 anyone can do, and it seems like it is almost in a "safe" category. I would like to see one or two more people volunteer on the walls to ensure it gets done however.

#3 Only the Angels can do, thus if we choose to vote, we are not helping keep the village's spiritual health safe. If we can manage to keep the spiritual health safe, after a certain amount, the village will receive some unknown bonus (we are not told what it is either).

[PackerFanatic]

hoops and I are working on the walls, so they will be done tomorrow.

[RealDeal]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

First, it's worth noting that you and Alan are the two people I'm putting the most trust in this game (I said that earlier).

With that said though, I just want to make sure I have this right. Basically you want all of us to vote for hoops, but you guys don't want to do it and you don't want to tell us why we should.

I'm not ruling out that I'd still do it, but uhm, yeah that seems a tad needy

We want you to vote for Hoops, we believe he is a demon. We would prefer not to have to use our votes to do it because we have parallel goals which are in the interests of the humans and angels. We would rather spend our turns building spiritual health than voting, but we will use our turns to vote if necessary.

As far as reasons, remember that angels can talk amongst themselves and with Gabriel. Gabriel, however, is very restricted in what they can say because they have access to Lucifer, and all of Gabriel's communications go through Barkeep to ensure they are legal. Alan and I, however, knowing this, are able to make some conclusions based on certain interactions in the game thread and in angel chat. Sometimes what a person doesn't say reveals as much as what they do say.

We don't have hard 100% proof, but felt strongly enough we are right to make the recommendation to everyone that Hoops is the person we think should be lynched tonight.

[Tyrith]

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

hoops and I are working on the walls, so they will be done tomorrow.

Assuming, of course, you aren't both bad.

[hoopsguy]

OK, it has been forty minutes and both angels are in the thread. Can you please tell me why you want to see me lynched today? It is a little frustrating seeing the cleared players leading a charge against you without offering any reasons.

If you are playing a hunch, what led you to this idea?
If you are squeezing me for info, what do you want to know?

I do not know how to demonstrate my allegiances to you guys (hint: villager) other than having you kill me and then say "oops" at the end of the day.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

all of Gabriel's communications go through Barkeep to ensure they are legal.

This is not true. Lucifer and Gabriel may ask for guidance in an area, but I trust in their discretion and common sense about what to say. I have asked all people with PM ability, however, to CC me on communications.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

hoops and I are working on the walls, so they will be done tomorrow.

If you believe that I'm a demon then it makes sense to have at least one more person back us up. I wanted three earlier to apply enough pressure here that the demons would not volunteer for this work or be able to manipulate people away from the work.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

We want you to vote for Hoops, we believe he is a demon. We would prefer not to have to use our votes to do it because we have parallel goals which are in the interests of the humans and angels. We would rather spend our turns building spiritual health than voting, but we will use our turns to vote if necessary.

As far as reasons, remember that angels can talk amongst themselves and with Gabriel. Gabriel, however, is very restricted in what they can say because they have access to Lucifer, and all of Gabriel's communications go through Barkeep to ensure they are legal. Alan and I, however, knowing this, are able to make some conclusions based on certain interactions in the game thread and in angel chat. Sometimes what a person doesn't say reveals as much as what they do say.

We don't have hard 100% proof, but felt strongly enough we are right to make the recommendation to everyone that Hoops is the person we think should be lynched tonight.

OK, so you think that I'm not just a demon, but that I'm Lucifer?

I'm not Lucifer.

I'll rattle off the names of each and every one of the ones listed on the front page if that helps you feel better.

I obviously have no idea what is said (or not said) in angel chat, so that is a tough one for me to address.

[RealDeal]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

This is not true. Lucifer and Gabriel may ask for guidance in an area, but I trust in their discretion and common sense about what to say. I have asked all people with PM ability, however, to CC me on communications.

To be precise, all of Gabriel's communications with the other angels are cc'd to barkeep, and our assumption, which I think is correct, is that it is at least partially to monitor those communications.

I did not mean to imply that Gabriel and Lucifer have to pre-clear with barkeep every communication they have.

Barkeep doesn't screen communications, but he does get to see them all.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

OK, it has been forty minutes and both angels are in the thread. Can you please tell me why you want to see me lynched today? It is a little frustrating seeing the cleared players leading a charge against you without offering any reasons.

If you are playing a hunch, what led you to this idea?
If you are squeezing me for info, what do you want to know?

I do not know how to demonstrate my allegiances to you guys (hint: villager) other than having you kill me and then say "oops" at the end of the day.

It is not as much about what we want you to do as it is about what you have already done.

Your reaction yesterday to PurdueBrad was the first thing that tipped me off. I don't know how many people caught his hints (I don't really need a rollcall of those who did and those who didn't), but you are a pretty bright player and to react the way you did to his voting of me seemed off (and was actually opposite of the way I reacted based on the same information seemingly). I have a hard time believing that you missed his hints completely.

Your reaction to the Telle situation yesterday felt to me like someone who was hedging their bets. Really in a win-win situation, you argued the correct side (the mathematical probability of Telle being good), yet did not really commit to it until the "juicy" spot for a vote. As previously discussed the location of your and Kwhit votes both seemed pretty demonish from my point of view, especially for someone who seemed to have decided on their stake in the issue well before the actual vote was cast.

The way that today has played out where you have presented a boatload of information without providing hardly any direct opinions on players feels pretty much like a lawyer trying to bury the opposing side in overload of data so the important pieces kind of get filtered out in the mass storm at some point. It feels very similar to how you have played as a bad guy in the past.

As a good guy, when you do not have an important role you tend to play agressively. You tend to want to push the vote to get people moving even in a game that requires other actions that might conflict with the need for voting (See Spawn 3 game). In this game you have not been taking a hard stance on any vote, and often (as seen in both day 1 and day 2 and even somewhat today) seem to be begging your way out of the vote in a sense to allow others to do the work for you. If you truly did not have a very important role, historically you have used that advantage to try to take a chance, to stir things up to try to see if you can get a pulse on people. That is even more important then ever in a game with the seer already dead and no bodyguard.

So it is not really as much what we want you to do to prove yourself, even though if you have some way of doing so I am all ears.. but more how you have reacted almost every step of this game thus far.

[RealDeal]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

OK, so you think that I'm not just a demon, but that I'm Lucifer?

I'm not Lucifer.

I'll rattle off the names of each and every one of the ones listed on the front page if that helps you feel better.

I obviously have no idea what is said (or not said) in angel chat, so that is a tough one for me to address.

We're confident you are a demon. You may be Lucifer.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm busy at work this afternoon and I may not be around much from 5:30-9ish, so let me try to be brief and address at least one thing I saw related to me up above

I cast my second vote for work last night because I didn't want to vote-split and put one vote on both. I knew I could still move my vote if I had to and that would have even more of an effect than vote-splitting, plus it helped us get work done on the cathedral.

[hoopsguy]

On the Telle situation, if I was a demon I had no reason to hedge my bet. The players involved were an angel and the cultist. I think I would bury the angel in that case if I thought I could get away with it. The reason I held off on the vote from 4PM (leaving work) until 8PM (arriving home) was to see how other people would react to it. I've had pretty good success with that in recent games, putting votes in later and putting down my arguments later in the day. Our moderator can attest to that, as I smoked him pretty hard in a recent game using exactly that tactic.

I put out the data today because I had the time to do it early today (unlike the last couple of days) and because I wanted to get a read on a few people. I've posted on each and every one of them in the thread. There was no "bury people in information" ... if anything, I was hoping to spark some conversation.

At this point I have to hold onto my vote to try and stay alive because that is the only way you are getting a demon today. But putting my initial action on the walls, and tying myself to it, is a crappy way to keep my options open.

[jeheinz72]

Ok, well I'll bite. I'd still like to see at least one of you vote for him too. Like a show of good faith in a way. I'll also be the 3rd person on the walls in case he's faking

Work Walls

[jeheinz72]

Vote hoopsguy

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

At this point I have to hold onto my vote to try and stay alive because that is the only way you are getting a demon today. But putting my initial action on the walls, and tying myself to it, is a crappy way to keep my options open.

Right now you are in a four way tie for lead in votes. Who would you put up as your idea of the best lynch choice for today? you seem to have alot of choices to choose from that would also help try to keep you alive by putting them ahead of you in votes.

[PackerFanatic]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

If you believe that I'm a demon then it makes sense to have at least one more person back us up. I wanted three earlier to apply enough pressure here that the demons would not volunteer for this work or be able to manipulate people away from the work.

I don't know what I believe yet - but if you ARE a demon and fake your work, then we will still complete the work, as I will not be faking.

[Tyrith]

Yeah, I'm just a little out of it when it comes to this game, it seems. I can't really blame you for wanting to chase him, but I'm not just sure. I'll be around this evening so I will wait, for now.

[PackerFanatic]

VOTE PASS

I am not sure how much I want to jump on the RD/AT bus that is going towards Hoops yet, and Pass is the only other one with a vote right now (besides myself) I won't be around tonight, so hopefully I don't end up biting it

Go villagers

[RendeR]

I'll be in and out from here on out.

Yesterday I reacted initially to RD's overreaction, it really hit me as a wolf trying to force the issue. His further explanations (with my initial feeling in mind) just made him look worse and worse.

My mind started to change when I looked at the situation from Alan's PoV and then went back and re-read some things. My initial reactions had never really taken the cultist into account, when I went back through everything along that line then I came around to the correct conclusion.

For today I'm really not set on anyone. I was so wraped up in the Rd/telle thing that others just weren't on my scope.

meh.

[jeheinz72]

Well I'm outta here until Monday morning. PEACE!

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Right now you are in a four way tie for lead in votes. Who would you put up as your idea of the best lynch choice for today? you seem to have alot of choices to choose from that would also help try to keep you alive by putting them ahead of you in votes.

Well, technically I'm not in a four way tie for the lead as you and RealDeal have five votes between you, along with any additional angel votes. But I'll play along.

I noted earlier who I thought were the ones that looked most suspicious. PF has made me feel a little better by volunteering to do the walls. I do not think that a wolf under duress would want to give up a vote. So I'll take him from the list. That leaves DT, Jackal, and KWhit.
- KWhit tied the vote on Telle, when it was not remotely clear that there was going to be a big swing. I'll give him a little more leeway than the other two.
- DT came forward with info on Telle that made her life more difficult. I don't see the upside in doing that as a demon, so even though I do not understand his play (wrong side of vote, late action to work on building) I'll put him ahead of The Jackal.
- That leaves Jackal, who has not voted this game and acted in a manner that I think made the most sense for demons in a cultist/angel showdown.

VOTE THE JACKAL

[hoopsguy]

The piece I'm really struggling with here is that Alan + RealDeal both seem pretty convinced of the rightness of this action but do not have an argument and are not committing votes to it. Don't get me wrong, I do not want votes today, but it is not like we are having a two way conversation either where they are discussing their suspicion. That might allow me to persuade angels and villagers alike to look in other directions.

Heck, I've changed my mind on my earlier vote. I'll guess that the demons are actually eager to jump on me in this spot. Heinz can always fall back on the "my schedule didn't allow me to get back and change" when it shows up wrong. So I've now convinced myself that he is a more likely demon than The Jackal.

UNVOTE THE JACKAL
VOTE JEHEINZ72

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Well, technically I'm not in a four way tie for the lead as you and RealDeal have five votes between you, along with any additional angel votes. But I'll play along.


- KWhit tied the vote on Telle, when it was not remotely clear that there was going to be a big swing. I'll give him a little more leeway than the other two.

I am glad that you did respond, I was beginning to worry that you just disappeared which is unlike you both as a good guy or a bad guy.

I filtered out only two of your comments though to hilight. I appreciate the first as you are correct that you can't necessarily say you are tied if there are plenty of pending votes that could go your way.

However if you choose to argue down that street, you can't then turn it around when it suits you either with Kwhit. Sure he officially tied the vote, but it was after PurdueBrad had pushed me to officially commit one way or another and I had already stated for the record that I was placing both of my votes on Telle.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Don't get me wrong, I do not want votes today, but it is not like we are having a two way conversation either where they are discussing their suspicion.

I don't really think this comment is very fair. I have posted quite a bit on my suspicions and even line-itemized them for everyone. I actually have had the ability to be fairly available most of today in which I have responded to the majority of the questions. Unfortunately that is not possible once we get to about 5:55 (35 minutes from now) but I don't think your comment is very fair nor accurate at all.

[hoopsguy]

I'll withdraw it if you are going to participate in the thread.

I've had a particularly challenging client engagement this week. Today was the first day I've had much in the way of free time during the day. However, I'm still onsite and still getting called into some meetings. In no way did I want to disappear ... as you noted, I'm willing to mix it up on either side of the fence.

[hoopsguy]

However, take a look at the amount of time that elapsed from when RealDeal first put out the charge and when you responded. RealDeal never outlined a case despite multiple inquiries from me to do so.

In the end, do what you guys think you have to do. I'm going to argue against a vote on me because it is good for the village to get demons, not villagers.

I think I'm in the position today that you were with PurdueBrad yesterday, where you thought he was seeing something that wasn't there but did not doubt his intentions. Well, I do not think that you guys are running some kind of nefarious plot. I have zero reason to think that you are demons. So that leaves me to conclude that you are just wrong.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I'll withdraw it if you are going to participate in the thread.

I've had a particularly challenging client engagement this week. Today was the first day I've had much in the way of free time during the day. However, I'm still onsite and still getting called into some meetings. In no way did I want to disappear ... as you noted, I'm willing to mix it up on either side of the fence.

Once again, I have been participating in the thread in from my perspective you are the one that was not. I posted my thoughts in much depth at 3:38 ET, you responded only to parts of it at 3:42pm ET. I responded a little bit later at 3:52pm and then you disappeared.

From my vantage point you were the one that stopped participating in the thread.

Either way this is a pretty rediculous subject to harp on when I already stated I only have 25 minutes left till I need to go. So either you have a very warped perspective of this afternoon's conversations or you are trying to set things up for a different agenda that you are going to push.

I absolutely do not believe there is any way you can say at all that no one had accusations based on anything and you can't frame this as a one way conversation that you did not receive responses to. In fact, I feel that you have been the one avoiding the conversation today.