Mid-Point Band/Musician

[albionmoonlight]

Saw this elsewhere and thought it might be interesting for discussion here:

What do you consider to be the exact mid-point musical act for a given era or genre? The completely average example of that music. The band for which half of other bands are above them, and half are below.

To make it more interesting, I think that it makes sense to limit ourselves to semi-well known artists within the decade/genre (though that need not be a requirement).

I found this kind of hard b/c I either like a band (in which case I think they are better than average) or dislike a band (in which case I think they are worse than average).

But one example did spring to mind for me.

I will lead off with The Spin Doctors for 90s Pop.

[bhlloy]

Poison for 80s hair metal was the first that comes to mind. Some iconic songs but you could easily come up with a decent number of more highly regarded bands.

[albionmoonlight]

Poison for 80s hair band is a good one.

[Swaggs]

I spent a good amount of time trying to make a determination for 90's grunge and struggled because it seems like there are a handful of bands that are agreed upon as at the top: Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Alice In Chains, and Soundgarden. A decent chunk of solid bands and then a big drop off. Then there are groups like Smashing Pumpkins and Bush, that sort of dabbled in grunge before branching into different directions.

The heavyweights have all had such different careers. Nirvana and Soundgarden packed a ton of influence into a 4-5 year period (although Soundgarden did some other stuff like 15 years later). Pearl Jam and Alice In Chains, I feel like they have/had long careers, but their peaks weren't as high as what Nirvana had.

Comparing the parameters to Poison and the Spin Doctors (where most folks can name 2-3 songs, I would think), maybe the answer is Soul Asylum? They had one huge hit (Runaway Train) and a couple of other songs that I feel like people may not be able to name, but would recognize if they heard (Misery, Somebody to Shove), but they were mostly irrelevant after about a 3 or 4-year run.

Good subject - interested to hear from posters about other genres.

[PilotMan]

I think it depends on where you see the bottom at. The Screaming Trees are a great example. They are far better than gobs out there, but are the middle ground?

The Cars were the first 80s group the popped in my head, but I'll admit I am not nearly as schooled in 80s music.

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, it all depends on what the universe of bands is to determine the midpoint. Midpoint of popular bands, or a band that straddles the line between the most popular/best and the bottom half which is mostly unknown/mediocre? For me, Poison and Spin Doctors are too accomplished/popular to be the midpoint (although 90s pop/rock is quite a large pool compared to 80s hair metal). I'd go with the large pool of bands and pick a band like Trixter for 80s hair metal - recognizable name, pretty forgettable, no major hits, never rose above mediocre. For the rest of 80s metal, I'd go with a band like Armored Saint - on the cusp of joining the big names but never really rose to the occasion.

[bhlloy]

Yeah, I mean are we talking bands that the average casual top 40 listener will know, or are we talking any band that fits the genre? I thought by definition it was the former, but it’s definitely two wildly different exercises.

Another one I just thought of that might fit the casual definition would be Xzibit. Had some hits, not the worst rapper out there but very mediocre and kinda just there in the rap scene for a long time. More famous for his car show and memes at this point.

[QuikSand]

How about Foreigner as the midpoint band for "pop/rock band of the modern era" overall? I think they could be a pretty good dividing point. They are mildly terrible, imo, but there are plenty worse.

[QuikSand]

The 80s: The Bangles

[QuikSand]

Alternative: Smashing Pumpkins

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Alternative: Smashing Pumpkins

may have overshot there

will report to drunk guy thread

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Yeah, it all depends on what the universe of bands is to determine the midpoint. Midpoint of popular bands, or a band that straddles the line between the most popular/best and the bottom half which is mostly unknown/mediocre? For me, Poison and Spin Doctors are too accomplished/popular to be the midpoint (although 90s pop/rock is quite a large pool compared to 80s hair metal). I'd go with the large pool of bands and pick a band like Trixter for 80s hair metal - recognizable name, pretty forgettable, no major hits, never rose above mediocre. For the rest of 80s metal, I'd go with a band like Armored Saint - on the cusp of joining the big names but never really rose to the occasion.

Yeah, Poison feels like they're welllll past the midpoint for their era.

[Carman Bulldog]

For Alternative, I was thinking Live. Throwing Copper was a solid outing and then a few solid hits after that. Bush (previously mentioned) were very similar. I'd probably put Stone Temple Pilots and Hole in the category above.

Unless I'm thinking of it all wrong and mid-point is more along the lines of a Blind Melon or Jane's Addiction.

[QuikSand]

Jane's Addiction came to me there as well, but I think I like Live better.

[cuervo72]

America?

[albionmoonlight]

In my head, this was more of a "mid point of bands you've heard of," but it could go any way people want.

If we broaden the pool, then I suspect that almost every band that I've heard of (I'm just an average fan) will be above average just b/c that means they were good enough to make me aware of them :-)

But even that criteria is variable b/c, say, Jon's universe of bands he's heard of is going to be much much bigger than mine.

I think of this as more fun for the discussion than maybe the exact right (unknowable) answers.

[Qwikshot]

Isn’t the answer always Frank Stallone?

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

How about Foreigner as the midpoint band for "pop/rock band of the modern era" overall? I think they could be a pretty good dividing point. They are mildly terrible, imo, but there are plenty worse.

Isn’t Foreigner a better Bad Company?

[Sweed]

.38 Special in the 80's.

Head East for 70's? One or two semi hits is all I can think of. Might be a stretch to put them middle but, they played all over and were pretty well known when I graduated HS and for years after.

[Ksyrup]

I feel like the answer for any particular genre/time period is a band/artist on the edge of popularity/relevance after whom other artists below them are unknown/mediocre/terrible. The only problem with that is I feel like it might end up being a one-hit wonder list, which is not the intent.

QS's comment about Foreigner raises another question. Foreigner was hugely successful and nowhere near the midpoint. But QS seems to be judging this solely from a "do they suck?" viewpoint. I think popularity/name recognition has to play a role here, but critical acclaim (or lack thereof) can be a part as well.

When I saw QS's post, my first thought was he was setting up a standard by which he could judge Billy Joel as below the midpoint...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

Isn’t the answer always Frank Stallone?

Half of recorded artists were NOT below Frank Stallone.

(the bar to get recorded was, admittedly, higher back then)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yeah, Poison feels like they're welllll past the midpoint for their era.

Upon more reflection, I'll tell you a couple bands that might be closer to midpoint: Warrant and/or Slaughter.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Sweed

.38 Special in the 80's.

Head East for 70's? One or two semi hits is all I can think of. Might be a stretch to put them middle but, they played all over and were pretty well known when I graduated HS and for years after.

I think something like a whole decade is too broad. I thought this was about a type of music, like Hair Metal, Alternative, Disco, etc. There was way too much music made in the 80's to name one band/artist as midpoint, unless it was Bryan Adams.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I think something like a whole decade is too broad. I thought this was about a type of music, like Hair etal, Alternative, Disco, etc. There was wat=y too much music made in the 80's to name one band/artist as midpoint, unless it was Bryan Adams.

Now that you mention it, he IS pretty middie

[Breeze]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

How about Foreigner as the midpoint band for "pop/rock band of the modern era" overall? I think they could be a pretty good dividing point. They are mildly terrible, imo, but there are plenty worse.

I like this one, was one of the first bands that popped into my head.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Upon more reflection, I'll tell you a couple bands that might be closer to midpoint: Warrant and/or Slaughter.

I see Warrant as definitely better than Slaughter. More hits across multiple albums, and even some stuff on their less popular albums was pretty good. Slaughter basically was Stick It To Ya, right?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I see Warrant as definitely better than Slaughter. More hits across multiple albums, and even some stuff on their less popular albums was pretty good. Slaughter basically was Stick It To Ya, right?

Depends on how you parse the question I think.

Warrant was easily the most successful and popular of the two bands, but speaking generally, I'd say members of Slaughter are held in higher regard as musicians.

[Ksyrup]

Warrant was the point at which most people realized hair metal had jumped the shark and become a parody of itself (Cherry Pie specifically).

How about Bullet Boys?

[Kodos]

Yeah, Cherry Pie helped hasten the death of pop metal.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Warrant was the point at which most people realized hair metal had jumped the shark and become a parody of itself (Cherry Pie specifically).

How about Bullet Boys?

They actually were one I considered but honestly, I think they were probably -- overall -- lower than the midpoint, closer to one (or two) hit wonders than anything more meaningful.

[Ksyrup]

I'm thinking of a whole collection of mediocre bands I'd put below nearly every band mentioned in this thread so far, so it's hard for me to think of some of these as midpoint bands, other than midpoint of popular bands. Like, Sleez Beez, Roxx Gang, Killer Dwarfs, Shark Island, Butch Walker's old band Southgang, etc. Someone popular/known but not all that great and not too popular has to be the midpoint between all of the dreck and the bands that were super popular and/or critical successes.

Tora Tora, Steelheart, Firehouse, Britny Fox? All treading the mediocre line.

[Kodos]

XYZ probably belongs with those bands. Never had a breakout hit.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I'm thinking of a whole collection of mediocre bands I'd put below nearly every band mentioned in this thread so far, so it's hard for me to think of some of these as midpoint bands, other than midpoint of popular bands. Like, Sleez Beez, Roxx Gang, Killer Dwarfs, Shark Island, Butch Walker's old band Southgang, etc. Someone popular/known but not all that great and not too popular has to be the midpoint between all of the dreck and the bands that were super popular and/or critical successes.

Tora Tora, Steelheart, Firehouse, Britny Fox? All treading the mediocre line.

Tora Tora were bangers live.

Britny Fox is an interesting contender but unless you get into regional bands / bar bands / etc I'm not sure they're up to the halfway mark.

As discussed up the thread somewhere, the criteria for scope makes this tough. They DID have two songs that (rock) charted in the 30s briefly, but if the criteria is simply "bands" then they probably get over halfway on that alone .. but if the criteria is "bands who got national airplay" then I dunno if they reach the midpoint.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

QS's comment about Foreigner raises another question. Foreigner was hugely successful and nowhere near the midpoint. But QS seems to be judging this solely from a "do they suck?" viewpoint. I think popularity/name recognition has to play a role here, but critical acclaim (or lack thereof) can be a part as well.

So... i guess I'm guilty of answering the question here in the way that I find most interesting.

I fall we are doing is measuring volume/sales/popularity, and the "universe" includes everyone who ever made any effort to be part of the genre, then what is the midpoint band of the 1980s? Shalamar? Or maybe they would be too big? So, maybe a band that nobody heard of, since the truth is that if you count every regional bar band that took its shot, you'd have an incalculable field of entries, and the midpoint of infinity is still infinity.

So yeah, I'm looking instead at acts that are well known, meaningful, and fairly well understood and remembered as part of their genre. And from that pool, subjective I realize, I am basically looking for a midpoint based on "greatness" that is some amalgamation of quality and enduring renown.

That's how I arrived at Foreigner. Not sure there are tons of true deep fans out there of theirs, but they made a mark in pop music, still get a bit of airplay here and there, and are... basically fine. They turned out to be much greater than... idano...Men Without Hats... but far lesser than Journey.

[Ksyrup]

That's fair. For me, it's much more interesting to find that band that was on the dividing line between well-known/successful/critically acclaimed and barely known/mediocre.

[JPhillips]

Winger?

[QuikSand]

Fun, anyway. John Cafferty and the Beaver Brown Band now submitted for your consideration as the midpoint of some ill-defined universe.

[Ksyrup]

I was thinking along those same lines... John Parr, who was probably topped only by Kenny Loggins for number of soundtrack songs in the 80s and early 90s.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Warrant was the point at which most people realized hair metal had jumped the shark and become a parody of itself (Cherry Pie specifically).

How about Bullet Boys?

Or Damn Yankees. I just listened to their first album today, and it had one of the most soaring ballads ever (High Enough), and some amazing harmonies in their other songs, but it also had quite a bunch of filler, and came out in 1992 right before Grunge music basically wiped out the entire genre. They only came out with one more album, in 1993.

And I love the Bullet Boys album Za Za, it was so good!

I would consider bands like Warrant, Winger, Slaughter and Poison to be at the top end of the Glam Metal genre, not really mid-point bands. Bands like Winger and Warrant did attempt to recreate themselves once Grunge hit (and honestly it was already happening just before), and their albums were definitely getting a bit dirtier and harder hitting, but it didn't matter, there was absolutely no market for them at the time. I still enjoyed their stuff though.

The excess was getting to be too much, as a lot of the copycat bands were just piling on and making the genre more and more tired. I was in a hard rock band in the early 90's myself, and I completely stopped playing guitar solos because it was just overdone.

[thesloppy]

I will forever rail against the idea that grunge killed hair metal. Balladry killed hair metal.

[Ksyrup]

It was already dying from the same thing that put the final nail in the coffin: record companies. They oversaturated the market with 3rd and 4th rate clones by around 89/90, and then when grunge came along in 91, they dropped 95% of those bands like a hot potato within a year or two.

[QuikSand]

“Pain Lies on the Riverside” popped on the radio, first I’ve heard it in many years. Heh.

I was sure Live was tossed out here but cannot find it via quick phone look.

Original band name was Club Fungus, sez my local DJ.

[Lathum]

Hair band junky here.

Poison is WAY in the upper tier of hair bands. Multiple hits across multiple albums. Warrant is also above Slaughter by a large margin. There were a ton of clones that you can drop in a bottom tier, many mentioned already.

Haven't seen this one mentioned as a good mid point- Dangerous Toys. A couple others that come to mind at Extreme, Mr. Big, Saigon Kick, and Trixter. All had some level of success but nothing like GnR, Skid Row, Motley Crue, Def Leppard, Bon Jovi, etc...

Also where does Queensryche fall into this category?

[Ksyrup]

Queensryche - although certainly over budget in the hair spray department on Rage For Order - are most definitely a prog metal band, not hair metal.

[Ksyrup]

Also, I mentioned Trixter above - I think that's a good one. Dangerous Toys is too. No one would be sportin' a woody to put them in the top tier...

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Queensryche - although certainly over budget in the hair spray department on Rage For Order - are most definitely a prog metal band, not hair metal.

I guess, there is a lot of crossover with them as opposed to a Dream Theater.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Alternative: Smashing Pumpkins

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Jane's Addiction came to me there as well, but I think I like Live better.

50%, Quik, not 95%.

Each of these bands produced arguably one of the top 100 rock albums ever made and are examples of the very best of the genre, not the middle.

[Ksyrup]

They are considered the forerunner of the Dream Theater era of bands. Operation Mindcrime was a prog masterpiece. Even Rage, which had hair metal elements, was extremely experimental (and my personal favorite) - but yes, back then they certainly had the look, not so much the sound.

[Toddzilla]

This is a tough topic to judge, since if you've heard of the Spin Doctors for example, and can even name one or two of their songs, that by default places them in the top 25% of all bands, since a massive majority of bands you'd never heard of.

However, I'll nominate Silverchair and Seven Mary Three as 2 mid-level alt bands for the sake of argument.

[Kodos]

Those are probably good examples. I've heard of both bands, but could not name a song or tell you anything of substance. I think Silverchair was known as a bit of a Pearl Jam ripoff maybe?