College Football offseason (non recruiting) discussion.

[CU Tiger]

Read an interesting article over the weekend and saved a few snippits, but cant find the original article to give credit to the author so my apologies.

Seems that once the cover is pulled back it is apparent that the NCAA worships at the feet of Saban and Bret Bielema rides his coat tails.

We all heard the outcries from Nick last year that fast paced up tempo offenses were a injury risk for players...and many scoffed at the abusrdity. BB quickly jumped in to agree and now we have an NCAA proposal to actually penalize teams for snapping the ball during the first ten seconds of the play clock and calling the penalty... ... ... wait for it ... ... ... DELAY OF GAME...ludicrous.

"BUT WHAT ABOUT THE KIDS?"...In the era of concussions, targeting and college player union talk we have to give significant attention to anything that is a true health detriment...so maybe slowing down these fast paced offenses and limitng play counts is a necessary evil.

Only someone did some research..

Secretary-rules editor Rogers Redding already has admitted there is little "hard data" to support the player-safety angle. Rodriguez gladly referenced the site cfbmatrix.com, which has measured pace of play vs. injuries. The site is run by Dave Bartoo, a 42-year old who works in bank and credit union mergers.

According to his data:

-- The Big 12 is the lightest (combined players' weights) among the five BCS leagues (Pac-12, SEC, Big Ten, ACC are the others). Its players have participated in the most plays among BCS conferences from 2009-2012. Lightest teams running the most plays. Bartoo found the conference is last among those five leagues in starts lost to injury.

-- From 2010-2012, Alabama was in the bottom 10 among BCS conference teams in plays per game. Saban lost a total of 30 starts to injury, 21 of those came against the bottom five teams in pace of play.

-- Everyone agrees Oregon is one of the quickest-playing teams in the country. In four seasons from 2009-2012, the Ducks lost 18 total starts on offense.

-- In 2012, the 15 fastest teams (plays per game) ran 2,700 more plays overall than the slowest 15 teams. The combined starts lost to injury of the 15 fastest teams were eight fewer than the slowest 15.

So let's call this what it is..pandering to the style of play the richest of the rich kids wants to play not some thinly veiled reference to player safety.

And as a parting shot:

Think of this brain teaser: The defense jumps offside within the first 10
seconds of the play clock. The offense then snaps the ball, as it should,
figuring it has a free play.

Who gets penalized? Defense? Offense?
Offsetting?

[MacroGuru]

The minute I saw who proposed it and who was backing it, I laughed.

In fact, I would say this much. The GFGH offensive philosophy that is out there is forcing the offensive players to be in better shape then they have every been in. I would completely understand the lack of injuries. Defenses I could see wearing down and sustaining injuries more, but the stats don't show it yet.

[cartman]

Think of this brain teaser: The defense jumps offside within the first 10
seconds of the play clock. The offense then snaps the ball, as it should,
figuring it has a free play.

Who gets penalized? Defense? Offense?
Offsetting?

I think the most likely outcome from this is that the play is blown dead, no free play for the offense, and the call is offside on the defense.

[Julio Riddols]

If they really make this a rule I'll shit myself publicly.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

If they really make this a rule I'll shit myself publicly.

Now I want them to pass this rule. Darn you, Julio.

[Dr. Sak]

I'll chime my two cents in on the matter...

I really think this uproar is much to do about nothing. First there's a chance they may not even pass this rule. Second, I don't think it will affect teams as much as everyone is making it out to be.

Look at the BCS National Title game last year. Auburn runs an up tempo offense...how many times did they snap the ball between 40 and 30 seconds? A whopping...ZERO TIMES. I know a small sample but I'll add a little more to maybe curb your fears or at least get you to step a few steps back from the ledge...

The play clock starts the moment the ball is dead (why you see the officials raise one hand). You have plays with various lengths on runs...incomplete passes, players running OOB. As an average, the officials get the ball spotted when the PC hits 32 seconds. So we are getting all fired up about 2 seconds here...and those two seconds are probably achieved when the Umpire backs out and the clock hits 30.

I understand the points that a lot of people are making on how the Saban's of the world are doing this because they don't like the fast paced offenses. Which I can see the gripes...however, just in my opinion, I don't see it as a big deal. Especially since you can snap it whenever under 2 minutes.

[Lathum]

I have heard a few interviews with hurry up guys over this week who said they were totally blindsided about it . They said the only way it could pass this season is under the guise of player safety.

[mauchow]

It definitely favors the defense but it wont technically slow down the offenses.. like someone referenced the Auburn game already.. no snaps before 30 elapsed anyway.

The key is going to be allowing fresh legs onto the field for the defense without worry if getting a penalty.

I always thought the way the teams played was silly anyway with up tempo and playing so fast it doesn't allow subs. Wisconsin didn't have any issues getting subs in against fast paced teams but thats because they adapted.. why can't Bielema/Saban I dont know.

Re: injury study.. the teams that are faster paced are less likely to be injury prone because A) they have better athletes who are in better shape more often than not and B) the defense is more tired and less likely to make a harder hit.

The injury study above to me is pointless.. the safety argument is for defense not offense.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by mauchow

Wisconsin didn't have any issues getting subs in against fast paced teams

Though they did have trouble with a normal paced offense in Penn State

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by mauchow

The injury study is stupid.. the teams that are faster paced are less likely to be injury prone because A) they have better athletes who are in better shape more often than not and B) the defense is more tired and less likely to make a harder hit.

The injury study above to me is pointless.. the safety would need to be for the defense

The NCAA needs to tie this into player safety if they want to pass it this year. The rule book gets published every two years (2013 was the latest). Changes in even numbered years can only go through if they involve player safety (as mentioned by Lathum). That's why they are trying to use the injury angle.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Look at the BCS National Title game last year. Auburn runs an up tempo offense...how many times did they snap the ball between 40 and 30 seconds? A whopping...ZERO TIMES. I know a small sample but I'll add a little more to maybe curb your fears or at least get you to step a few steps back from the ledge...

Counter point.

Clemson snapped the ball 6 times in the Orange Bowl with more than 30 seconds on the play clock.

Gus stated several times on the record that he slowed the pace down this year intentionally to match the personnel...I dont think Auburn was a hurry up offense this year.

In fact without researching (toug on the phone) I suspect FSU averaged more plpg than AU this year.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by mauchow

The injury study is stupid.. the teams that are faster paced are less likely to be injury prone because A) they have better athletes who are in better shape more often than not and B) the defense is more tired and less likely to make a harder hit.

The injury study above to me is pointless.. the safety would need to be for the defense

-- The Big 12 is the lightest (combined players' weights) among the five BCS leagues (Pac-12, SEC, Big Ten, ACC are the others). Its players have participated in the most plays among BCS conferences from 2009-2012. Lightest teams running the most plays. Bartoo found the conference is last among those five leagues in starts lost to injury.

-- From 2010-2012, Alabama was in the bottom 10 among BCS conference teams in plays per game. Saban lost a total of 30 starts to injury, 21 of those came against the bottom five teams in pace of play.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I'll chime my two cents in on the matter...

I really think this uproar is much to do about nothing. First there's a chance they may not even pass this rule. Second, I don't think it will affect teams as much as everyone is making it out to be.

Look at the BCS National Title game last year. Auburn runs an up tempo offense...how many times did they snap the ball between 40 and 30 seconds? A whopping...ZERO TIMES. I know a small sample but I'll add a little more to maybe curb your fears or at least get you to step a few steps back from the ledge...

The play clock starts the moment the ball is dead (why you see the officials raise one hand). You have plays with various lengths on runs...incomplete passes, players running OOB. As an average, the officials get the ball spotted when the PC hits 32 seconds. So we are getting all fired up about 2 seconds here...and those two seconds are probably achieved when the Umpire backs out and the clock hits 30.

I understand the points that a lot of people are making on how the Saban's of the world are doing this because they don't like the fast paced offenses. Which I can see the gripes...however, just in my opinion, I don't see it as a big deal. Especially since you can snap it whenever under 2 minutes.

While you and others I've seen make very good points, I cannot get past one thing:

It's Saban. If he's doing it, he's doing it for a purpose and it's because he thinks it gives him a better chance to win. (he doesn't give a flip if 700 players got hurt. I still say they shouldn't change the rule.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by TroyF

While you and others I've seen make very good points, I cannot get past one thing:

It's Saban. If he's doing it, he's doing it for a purpose and it's because he thinks it gives him a better chance to win. (he doesn't give a flip if 700 players got hurt. I still say they shouldn't change the rule.

I would not argue that point one bit.

[mauchow]

Originally Posted by lungs

Though they did have trouble with a normal paced offense in Penn State

Ugh. Blocked that disaster out of my memory banks already.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Counter point.

Clemson snapped the ball 6 times in the Orange Bowl with more than 30 seconds on the play clock.

Gus stated several times on the record that he slowed the pace down this year intentionally to match the personnel...I dont think Auburn was a hurry up offense this year.

In fact without researching (toug on the phone) I suspect FSU averaged more plpg than AU this year.

I admit using a extremely small sample size with that one game.

Next time you watch or are at a game, take notice at when the dead ball signal is given by the official and then look to see when the PC actually starts. I'm willing to bet you will see a 2 to 3 second delay from when the hand goes up to when the PC starts.

In theory, PC operators do this to milk time off the clock but with the hurry up offenses and with this new potential "rule" being proposed...we may very much see that practice go by the wayside. Which again brings an average of spotting the ball between 29-32 seconds. It's a way to slow down the game without making it a hard fast rule.

I understand why people are mad...especially because those coaches who are proposing the rule seem to be doing it to benefit their team. But again I don't see it affecting the game all that much.

[mauchow]

Injuries tend to be more by freak accidents than anything else.. however, fatigue is definitely going to create an issue too for injuries. If the player can't get off the field on time for a sub because the offense is moving too fast then yes there should be a rule.. all the fast paced offense is doing is taking advantage of rules written with the way "normal" offenses were run. I would think that if the fast paced offense was more prominent 30 years ago we would have seen rule changes already made.

[mauchow]

And yes..the playclock begins when the last play ends. There arent too many teams that snap within ten seconds of last play.

It just allows the team to get a player on and off the field without worry of the team snapping while someone is running off the field.

[sterlingice]

I expect that rule or no rule, Kansas will still suck this year.

But Saban's still a dick for doing this

SI

[Chief Rum]

So if the ball is almost never snapped before 30 seconds are left, why is a rule even necessary?

[mauchow]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

So if the ball is almost never snapped before 30 seconds are left, why is a rule even necessary?

Because the offense is set before ten seconds so the team can't sub. They hurry up so the team can't make changes and then they sit and survey the defense for ten more seconds. Coach calls in a play based on what they see...

[Chief Rum]

But how can the offense be set and survey the defense for an additional 10 seconds if, as Sak said, the ball is on average not even placed at the scrimmage line until 32 seconds are left on the play clock?

The offense can't be "set" without a ball and the defense can sub right up to the offense being set.

[CU Tiger]

Any time the offense subs a player, th Umpire stands over the ball until the D has a chance to substitute already. So if one team is fatigued, both are.

The snap count is the ONLY thing the Offense has. The rules tell the offense how many playrs have to be on the line, one each side of the ball, who is eligible to touch the ball, and how you can touch a defender (No grabbing the jersey) by contrast the D can line up anywhere they want, run any direction prior to the snap, move as many people any way they want and grab anyting other than a helmet they want. The only advantage the offense has is they know when to GO!...take that away and crap...

[cartman]

OMAHA

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by cartman

I think the most likely outcome from this is that the play is blown dead, no free play for the offense, and the call is offside on the defense.

At first glance sure...but remember the D can always reset prior to the snap.
So the snap is often just to trigger the offsides call.
You can argue that had the offense not snapped the ball (illegally) the D could have reset...especially if there were still multiple seconds left before the timeline

[cartman]

Then there likely would be a reworking of the neutral zone infraction rule to address that scenario. The rule already states that if a lineman moves due to a defensive player entering the neutral zone, then that is a penalty on the defense.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by cartman

Then there likely would be a reworking of the neutral zone infraction rule to address that scenario. The rule already states that if a lineman moves due to a defensive player entering the neutral zone, then that is a penalty on the defense.

Just to add for clarity (and because I am anal retentive)...only if that OLineman is directly threatened by that defender. Defender head up...the OL in front and one to each side. Defender in the gap...the OL to either side.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Just to add for clarity (and because I am anal retentive)...only if that OLineman is directly threatened by that defender. Defender head up...the OL in front and one to each side. Defender in the gap...the OL to either side.

So do you care to weigh in with how the above scenario would hypothetically play out.

DE or OLB is in the neutral zone.
C snaps the ball with more than 10s on the clock with D still across the LOS (and for simplicity sake lets say clear path unabated).
Then what.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

So do you care to weigh in with how the above scenario would hypothetically play out.

DE or OLB is in the neutral zone.
C snaps the ball with more than 10s on the clock with D still across the LOS (and for simplicity sake lets say clear path unabated).
Then what.

I would think the actual wording of a potential rule would address this but think about it a different way...

If the defensive player is running off the field for a substitution, and in an effort to get to their bench, crosses the LOS, and the ball is snapped with 31 seconds on the clock, I'd very much think the penalty would be on the offense.

[mauchow]

I think you guys are worried too much about the offside/encroachment/false start issue. Players on the defensive Side arent going to be lined up and ready to rush w 30 seconds on the clock.

This will not slow the game down as if it was "taking away the shot clock in basketball" as Gundy said.

I do believe that they would do it for players safety. If the players cant get off the field quickly enough to be subbed out, that is just a silly work around that the offense is forcing by always creating the possibility that they're going to snap.

Defense gets WAAAY more tired than the offense in the spread. Thats why coaches do it. It gives them an advantage on offense when the defense doesn't have sufficient time to get off without a penalty.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Any time the offense subs a player, th Umpire stands over the ball until the D has a chance to substitute already. So if one team is fatigued, both are.

The snap count is the ONLY thing the Offense has. The rules tell the offense how many playrs have to be on the line, one each side of the ball, who is eligible to touch the ball, and how you can touch a defender (No grabbing the jersey) by contrast the D can line up anywhere they want, run any direction prior to the snap, move as many people any way they want and grab anything other than a helmet they want. The only advantage the offense has is they know when to GO!...take that away and crap...

I'm no fan of the proposed change, but this is way overblown. The offense also knows where every player is going while the defense has to read and react. You could specify the exact second the offense has to snap and there would still be points scored.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

So do you care to weigh in with how the above scenario would hypothetically play out.

DE or OLB is in the neutral zone.
C snaps the ball with more than 10s on the clock with D still across the LOS (and for simplicity sake lets say clear path unabated).
Then what.

My guess...two fouls on the play. Delay of Game (snapping the ball early) and defensive offside. Offsetting fouls replay the down.

However, if the offense jumps (without snapping) and the D moves in the neutral zone, then we have a simple defensive offsides. So if this rule goes through, coaches will teach the threatened linemen to move when the D moves in the NZ instead of having the center snap the ball.

[JonInMiddleGA]

local beat writer tweets that UGA has dismissed DB Josh Harvey-Clemons from for violation of team rules. He would have missed the first three games of the season, having served 1 game of a 4 game suspension already in place (punishment consistent with a second failed drug test)

He started 11 games last season, was 3rd on the team in tackles.

You may (vaguely) recall the follow-up to his Gator Bowl suspension, which had his grandfather/legal guardian claiming it was related to academics, only to be told by reporters that might not be the case.

[BishopMVP]

I wouldn't mind putting in a rule that the offense only has 10 seconds or so to snap the ball once they're set. Offenses that hurry to the ball, then all stop and look at the sideline to see the coach calling in a different play once he reads the defense are a bigger issue imo than offenses that actually want to run a hurry up.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I wouldn't mind putting in a rule that the offense only has 10 seconds or so to snap the ball once they're set. Offenses that hurry to the ball, then all stop and look at the sideline to see the coach calling in a different play once he reads the defense are a bigger issue imo than offenses that actually want to run a hurry up.

What do you mean when you say "bigger issue"? Pace of play? From a fairness perspective?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Logan

What do you mean when you say "bigger issue"? Pace of play? From a fairness perspective?

From a BishopMVP enjoyment perspective. Although it is a little unfair if they are using it to prevent defensive substitutions with no intention of running a hurry-up play - Sak probably knows the rules a lot better than I on how that plays out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

NCAA Football Rules Committee's Troy Calhoun backtracks on slowdown proposal - ESPN

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

NCAA Football Rules Committee's Troy Calhoun backtracks on slowdown proposal - ESPN

I really don't think he had a choice. With the number of teams running this offense now and the fact Saban didn't, you know, bring any factual data to the plate, this was destined for failure. This was always about substitution. Saban knows he's deeper than any team in the country, so rotating his guys eliminates the biggest asset of the spread. This isn't even mentioning his defense was simply torched three different times he played against that style of offense last year.

A&M 600+ yards, 42 points
Auburn 393 yards, 34 points (I realize some points were on a return)
OU 400+ yards, 45 points

Against those three teams, Alabama gave up 121 points and 1,448 yards or 40 points, and 482 yards per game

The other 10 teams they played? 60 points, 2,275 yards or 6 points and 227 yards per game


Gee George, wonder why he wanted rules changes? Sure, safety, sure, sure. If the NCAA does pass this rule, it will face a firestorm they don't want. Stay classy Nick.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I wouldn't mind putting in a rule that the offense only has 10 seconds or so to snap the ball once they're set. Offenses that hurry to the ball, then all stop and look at the sideline to see the coach calling in a different play once he reads the defense are a bigger issue imo than offenses that actually want to run a hurry up.

I agree, although I'm not sure that's the way to stop it. I might favor an illegal procedure call for audibles coming from the coaching staff.

[mauchow]

Oregon averaged 26 minutes T.O.P per game in 2013. They averaged 76 plays per game, (Just over 20 seconds per play). Subtract 5(?) seconds for the actual plays themselves. Then factor in incomplete passes when the clock is stopped(I think). I would venture to guess it took them about 17 seconds to snap the ball per play.. if not longer.

Texas Tech 28:28 average per game with 90 plays. 18.66 seconds per play. After the adjustment for the play and incomplete passes, the fastest team in the country is still probably averaging over 15 seconds per play to snap anyway. What's the reason for the complaint? Defense actually allowed to sub without worry, which in my opinion should fully be allowed to begin with.

Am I going about this incorrectly? Teams are not snapping within ten seconds anyway, so what's the problem with adding a rule that basically allows defenses to get in a sub without repercussions. Watch a Texas Tech, Oregon, Auburn game. These guys are getting to the line so fast that the defense cannot substitute a player without getting penalized because the offense will snap it for a free five yards and a free play.. someone already said it but I hate when I see the offense run to the line only to have everyone relax once they know the defense is in place with no subs made. All 11 offensive guys look at the sideline and read the signs for the next play then get set and go.

Although, as I stated earlier, Wisconsin was able to get in subs just fine against BYU who ran 81 plays that game. So why can't teams just adjust to the existing rules? I have no idea what the compromise would be.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by mauchow

Although, as I stated earlier, Wisconsin was able to get in subs just fine against BYU who ran 81 plays that game. So why can't teams just adjust to the existing rules? I have no idea what the compromise would be.

Here is where it happens, BYU rotates WR's and OL constantly, so because they sub, the defense gets to sub. They would hurry to the line though, call the play and snap asap...

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

Here is where it happens, BYU rotates WR's and OL constantly, so because they sub, the defense gets to sub. They would hurry to the line though, call the play and snap asap...

I'm not sure many people realize that BYU was one of - if not the - fastest teams on offense last year. Faster than Oregon or Arizona or A&M.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by mauchow

Oregon averaged 26 minutes T.O.P per game in 2013. They averaged 76 plays per game, (Just over 20 seconds per play). Subtract 5(?) seconds for the actual plays themselves. Then factor in incomplete passes when the clock is stopped(I think). I would venture to guess it took them about 17 seconds to snap the ball per play.. if not longer.

Texas Tech 28:28 average per game with 90 plays. 18.66 seconds per play. After the adjustment for the play and incomplete passes, the fastest team in the country is still probably averaging over 15 seconds per play to snap anyway. What's the reason for the complaint? Defense actually allowed to sub without worry, which in my opinion should fully be allowed to begin with.

Am I going about this incorrectly? Teams are not snapping within ten seconds anyway, so what's the problem with adding a rule that basically allows defenses to get in a sub without repercussions. Watch a Texas Tech, Oregon, Auburn game. These guys are getting to the line so fast that the defense cannot substitute a player without getting penalized because the offense will snap it for a free five yards and a free play.. someone already said it but I hate when I see the offense run to the line only to have everyone relax once they know the defense is in place with no subs made. All 11 offensive guys look at the sideline and read the signs for the next play then get set and go.

Although, as I stated earlier, Wisconsin was able to get in subs just fine against BYU who ran 81 plays that game. So why can't teams just adjust to the existing rules? I have no idea what the compromise would be.

Not sure why this continues to be missed. It doesn't matter how long it takes the ref to spot the ball or the offense to snap it. The hurry up means the offense CAN snap the ball when it is placed and force either a too many men on the field penalty or catch the defense out of position.

This is why it is such a popular offense. It puts pressure on the defense, forces them out of their normal sets and doesn't allow for deep defenses to simply rotate players in on a single series. Some teams have adjusted just fine to dealing with these offenses. (Stanford comes to mind as one who does a pretty good job handling the spread) Others haven't been as lucky. (Hello Alabama)

You really hit the nail on the head. If the ball is snapped this late anyway, why is anyone worrying about it? Saban (and other coaches) are blaming injuries on the offense without any proof. Everything the guy does is calculated. He knows this will give HIM an advantage and put some of these new fangled offenses in their place. If he can replace his 5 star DL with other 5 star defensive lineman, he has a massive advantage in keeping guys fresh.

Please, NCAA, just cut it out. Don't let this dirtbag dictate policy based off of lies. He's pissed because he didn't stop it last year, not because he's worried about injuries. FWIW, he's a great coach and I have no doubt he will adjust anyway. He'll get it figured out. But this just reeks of sour grapes to me. He didn't lose to Aubrun or OU because they were injuring his players. He lost to them because they beat the hell out of him.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I'm not sure many people realize that BYU was one of - if not the - fastest teams on offense last year. Faster than Oregon or Arizona or A&M.

When it was working (unfortunately all too well in the first half against GT), that offense was a thing of beauty to watch. They get to the line so fast and look so smooth doing it.

[digamma]

The Nkemdiche brothers are being sued for $2 million over a campus fight. Seems like an attempted money grab, but there also appears to have been a real fight.

[dawgfan]

For fun I went to cfbstats.com and calculated time per play:

BYU: 19:27 per play
Baylor: 19:48
Oregon: 20:29
Arizona: 21:35
Washington: 21:52
Texas A&M: 21:52

I didn't do all teams, so there may have been faster offenses, but BYU was right at the top.

[Kodos]

Indiana might be up there too.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

For fun I went to cfbstats.com and calculated time per play:

BYU: 19:27 per play
Baylor: 19:48
Oregon: 20:29
Arizona: 21:35
Washington: 21:52
Texas A&M: 21:52

I didn't do all teams, so there may have been faster offenses, but BYU was right at the top.

Maybe I'm misreading your stat, but what is the measure exactly? Is it supposed to be a period rather than a colon, so 19.27 seconds per play?

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by digamma

Maybe I'm misreading your stat, but what is the measure exactly? Is it supposed to be a period rather than a colon, so 19.27 seconds per play?

Sorry, yeah. I had my spreadsheet cells set to time-code, and I forgot the change the colons to periods when I transcribed the results.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Pinkel getting new deal at Mizzou, reportedly bumps his pay to around $3M annually.

PowerMizzou.com - New deal in place for Pinkel