Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[Galaxy]

Good points.

[Flasch186]

um, Senator McCain, who do you think would win in a fight, Randy Couture or Brock Lesnar and Ill take your answer sitting down...thanks. Go Rebels!

[sachmo71]

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Uhhh, there is a town hall.

They can call it whatever they want, but there's still a moderator, and I'm sure the questions are still pre-screened by the candidates.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

that's so disingenuous again. He was honest, he said debate and a debate they'll have times 3.

I think that's the perfect word for Obama's statements. He does this in August:

Democratic candidate Barack Obama on Saturday backed away from rival John McCain's challenge for a series of joint appearances, agreeing only to the standard three debates in the fall.

In May, when a McCain adviser proposed a series of pre-convention appearances at town hall meetings, Obama said, "I think that's a great idea." In summer stumping on the campaign trail, McCain has often noted that Obama had not followed through and joined him in any events.

ABC News: Obama Backs Away From McCain's Debate Challenge

Then, at his convention, he calls out McCain for a debate after rejecting McCain's attempt at a debate (which he earlier agreed with):

If John McCain wants to have a debate about who has the temperament, and judgment, to serve as the next Commander-in-Chief, that's a debate I'm ready to have.

I'd say disingenuous pretty much sums up Obama's "challenge" to McCain for a debate on the above items.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

That, my friend, is awesome!

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by molson

They can call it whatever they want, but there's still a moderator, and I'm sure the questions are still pre-screened by the candidates.

And you're wrong:

The participants in the town meeting will pose their questions to the candidates after reviewing their questions with the moderator for the sole purpose of avoiding duplication.

There has to be some sort of moderator even in a town hall. Who calls on questioners? Who enforces time limits? Who gives an introduction? Brokaw may do more than that, I don't know, but you can't have a debate without some sort of moderation.

[DaddyTorgo]

Was just conversing with a coworker who brought up a great point - she said she was watching an interview with Luke Russert last week and they were talking about polling numbers, and he pointed out that traditional polling #'s (which are tied to landlines) don't accurately reflect the electorate because of the large % of the population under 30 who no longer have a landline at all, and the fact that a majority of that group are left-leaning. My coworker then said that Luke said that they did a seperate survey of cellphone users and Obama had like a 20pt lead on McCain.

Now I'm not suggesting that that 20pt lead is accurate (it seems way too huge to me), but simply raising the point and guessing that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, that perhaps Obama's lead is somewhat more secure than the raw polls give him credit for.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Arles

I think that's the perfect word for Obama's statements. He does this in August:



ABC News: Obama Backs Away From McCain's Debate Challenge

Then, at his convention, he calls out McCain for a debate after rejecting McCain's attempt at a debate (which he earlier agreed with):

I'd say disingenuous pretty much sums up Obama's "challenge" to McCain for a debate on the above items.

You do realize there are multiple definitions for "debate"? In context it seems clear Obama was calling for:

A discussion involving opposing points; an argument.

While a town hall would be:

A formal contest of argumentation in which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Was just conversing with a coworker who brought up a great point - she said she was watching an interview with Luke Russert last week and they were talking about polling numbers, and he pointed out that traditional polling #'s (which are tied to landlines) don't accurately reflect the electorate because of the large % of the population under 30 who no longer have a landline at all, and the fact that a majority of that group are left-leaning. My coworker then said that Luke said that they did a seperate survey of cellphone users and Obama had like a 20pt lead on McCain.

Now I'm not suggesting that that 20pt lead is accurate (it seems way too huge to me), but simply raising the point and guessing that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, that perhaps Obama's lead is somewhat more secure than the raw polls give him credit for.

I haven't seen that. One of the big polling outfits, I think Gallup, studied this and found a less than three point difference in a pure cell phone sample. They also stated that accounting for cell phone users was a part of their overall methodology and hence their polling numbers.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I haven't seen that. One of the big polling outfits, I think Gallup, studied this and found a less than three point difference in a pure cell phone sample. They also stated that accounting for cell phone users was a part of their overall methodology and hence their polling numbers.

fair enough - like i said - it wasn't an interview I saw or anything - it was total hearsay on my part to post that. just something i wondered if people had taken into account.

[Flasch186]

C'mon Arles, that's strategy. Youve gotta be able to look at things neutrally sometime right?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

...or a duel.

Why exactly do you think Palin's on the ticket?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by cafferty's latest blog on cnn.com

The Associated Press reports a private lawyer has been authorized to spend $95,000 dollars of state money to defend Palin in the trooper ethics probe

.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

C'mon Arles, that's strategy.

Hey, I think it's real smart for Obama. But, to call out McCain for a debate on these issues right after declining his challenge to have more debates is akin to yelling at someone and taunting him while quietly asking your friends to hold you back.

Youve gotta be able to look at things neutrally sometime right?

You've pegged me. I have no ability to look at things neutrally. Maybe one day I'll be able to separate the politics from everything and be as unbiased as you are. Well, it gives me something to strive for atleast.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Plus, he does have the military record, and unlike Kerry, he never came back from Vietnam bad mouthing his fellow soldiers...plus, who in their right mind would try to Swift Boat a POW?

Yeah, that would be like someone accusing a triple-amputee Bronze and Silver Star Vietnam Vet of a lack of patriotism in campaign ads featuring images of the Vet superimposed with images of Osama bin Laden & Saddam Hussein. Crazy talk!

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

.

So you're upset that the State is defending the govenor in a legal matter?

And you want higher taxes?? (snicker).

States outsource legal maters all the time, when there's a conflict, or if its otherwise more efficient. Otherwise she'd be defended by the Attorney General's Office (which would also use State money)

[JPhillips]

For the love of God Obama wasn't calling for any formal debate. He was talking about a discussion or argument.

As for Palin's lawyer, that's not a big deal. A governor has to be able to have legal counsel and having a limited budget from the state is reasonable. The fact that he's both the governor's attorney and Palin's family attorney could be a bit of a conflict, however.

[DaddyTorgo]

Hey i didn't say i was upset - just hadn't heard that yet and so was posting it over here. Besides, Alaska has plenty of $$ - not worried about that.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Arles

Hey, I think it's real smart for Obama. But, to call out McCain for a debate on these issues right after declining his challenge to have more debates is akin to yelling at someone and taunting him while quietly asking your friends to hold you back.


You've pegged me. I have no ability to look at things neutrally. Maybe one day I'll be able to separate the politics from everything and be as unbiased as you are. Well, it gives me something to strive for atleast.

you said it.

Arles, theyre having a debate and if you trust the rules as stated than it's closer to what you desire than youre willing to admit so you can staunchly stand in your corner. I however will continue to look at things as fairly as possible. As an example, I have no problam with a government attorney defending the governor on Alaskan tax dollars, until I hear otherwise that's what that attorney is supposed to do. Wow, Arles, can you believe it? Ability to see things from a neutral standpoint. When you stop the spin perhaps you'll be able to too.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

C'mon Arles, that's strategy. Youve gotta be able to look at things neutrally sometime right?

Who here (including myself) looks things at neutrally? We are all bias. Politics and no bias do not mix. Never have, never will.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

First, America needs to rediscover personal responsibility. You are responsible for maintaining your home. You are responsible for managing your money. You are responsible for how you react to the world around you. Etc., etc.

Second, we need to re-establish family values. Where I am from, most of the people that are from single family homes wind up in bad situations. (Just for the record, this is something that is not a government issue, it is a societal issue) We need to figure out some way to encourage people to have a stable home environment for their children. We have to restore ethical values (I am a big believer in some universal truths).

Third, we need to realize in this country that not everyone is cut out for college and encourage people to go to trade schools. We also need to improve our trade schools because many of the people that I have run across from the schools down here were not worth crap. I'm talking about machinists who couldn't read a ruler or tape measure type of stuff.

Finally, we need to revamp our public school system. It is absolute crap. I was lucky enough to have a wonderful kindergarten teacher for my son. Unfortunately, what happens in first grade? They put many of the smart kids in a class with a second year teacher. Bless her heart she is nice. But she does not yet know how to challenge students. The result is that my child is not getting the most out of his education. He can do better, but he is not challenged at all. Compared to last year when his teacher repeatedly challenged him to write and sing songs. The result is that he is used to performing in front of his peers, his hand writing is excellent for his age, and he has a great creative side as far as making up music. (But he doesn't want to be a rock star because then he would have to smoke)

Another thing regarding education is make ethics and civics classes mandatory. Additionally, we need to show kids why they need to develop skills.

But, all that said, we still need trash collectors, janitors, etc. We need to make unskilled labor more profitable so that people will work in those jobs rather than sit on their ass, which I see all too often about a mile from where I live.

An old post, but I like this.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Who here (including myself) looks things at neutrally? We are all bias. Politics and no bias do not mix. Never have, never will.

Well Ill refer you back to my DT supported list of things I want and I think most everyone can agree that that is a pretty good starting bloc.

[Jas_lov]

New state polls are out and they look good for Obama:

Iowa: Obama 55 McCain 40
Minnesota: Obama 53 McCain 41
Ohio: Obama 47 McCain 45

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Arles, theyre having a debate and if you trust the rules as stated than it's closer to what you desire than youre willing to admit so you can staunchly stand in your corner.

I'm not really sure what you are saying here, but my point was the picture of it all. Declining debates (that Obama agreed to in principle earlier) and then stating you want more discussion with your opponent and calling him out seems little disingenuous to me.

I however will continue to look at things as fairly as possible.

You keep playing this game of acting like you are completely impartial when you've been nothing of the sort in this thread. Neither have I or pretty much any other poster, but we aren't sticking our nose up at everyone else when they argue their point of view. If you think you are being completely impartial, there's obviously nothing I can say to change that in your mind. So, we'll just leave it to the readers of this thread to decide if this image you've made of yourself in your own mind is accurate.

As an example, I have no problam with a government attorney defending the governor on Alaskan tax dollars, until I hear otherwise that's what that attorney is supposed to do.

How gracious of you. I think most on the left feel this way. What's interesting is that even when you try and be impartial, you still need to throw out a qualifier when taking the McCain/Palin side.

I'm biased, most in this thread are biased. I could puff smoke up your butt to show how impartial I am and state how I think Obama was correct in situation Y or the press was unfair to him in situation Z (there are many examples of both), but I choose not to insult everyone's intelligence who's reading.

Wow, Arles, can you believe it? Ability to see things from a neutral standpoint. When you stop the spin perhaps you'll be able to too.

You just keep telling yourself that. There are two types of people in this thread: those that acknowledge their bias and those lying to themselves. I'll leave it to you to decide which camp you want to belong to. No skin off my back either way.

[Flasch186]

by no means do I mean to denegrade anyone else's view or attempt to make anyone think like me unless I can convince someone that the facts are overwhelming and they change their opinion of their own volition. Ive stated clearly and concisely to you that things should be allowed to run their course, that the questions from both sides are legitimate, that the lying shouldnt be allowed on either side, that family issues should remain private if thats what the family wants, etc. So at what point is that a biased view and Im sure you want those things too, right? I will call a spade a spade and my view is my own but I do think when I have an opinion, that it is my opinion, until it's changed by more info to justify a flip or a flop. Edit to add: Now if I can change your opinion with info. or through debate than great but at least I will attempt to base it on truthyness and honesty in stuff i post.

In regards to puffing smoke and being able to show when person A is right about X and person B wrong about X and then be vice versa is an ok thing to be. I do not think anyone in this thread HAS TO follow the straight line in support of or against their player...if anything that's the problem with this country.

And the commentary about the attorney is vanilla as it can be, I wasnt trying to be gracious but continue to participate in this thread and that current issue. I have no idea the rules that a government attorney is supposed to follow so as far as I know theyre playing by them. Until someone tells me or shows me that something isnt above board why shouldnt it go through and she be able to use him/her?

Hit the reset button, one time and re-read what I said without a slant, JimGA is able to do this IMO. It's not a biased jab or anything....Im not a lawyer nor work for the government.

can I still buy your next game?

[Jas_lov]

I don't think those inside the Republican Party are too happy about the Palin pick even though they say so on the air. Mike Murphy and Peggy Noonan are caught discussing Palin off air:

YouTube - Noonan and Murphy on Palin

Noonan said this today in her WSJ article today: "She is a real and present danger to the American left, and to the Obama candidacy. She could become a transformative political presence. So they are going to have to kill her, and kill her quick." And then in the clip she says "It's over." Are conservatives really as happy with Palin as they claim to be?

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

An old post, but I like this.

Looks like the last part of Obama's acceptance speech....

Warhammer, do you do speech writing?

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

I don't think those inside the Republican Party are too happy about the Palin pick even though they say so on the air. Mike Murphy and Peggy Noonan are caught discussing Palin off air:

YouTube - Noonan and Murphy on Palin

Noonan said this today in her WSJ article today: "She is a real and present danger to the American left, and to the Obama candidacy. She could become a transformative political presence. So they are going to have to kill her, and kill her quick." And then in the clip she says "It's over." Are conservatives really as happy with Palin as they claim to be?

As I said in the other thread, I really don't see a difference in the next four years regardless of who's president (again, given I am not motivated to vote on social issues). So, before the Palin pick, I wasn't really all that interested in the election. After the Palin pick, I see more of a reason to vote for McCain as I like her. Not sure what that means, but the pick has certainly got me more interested in the election.

[ace1914]

Good or bad, here comes your next Palin/Obama comparison.


Palin's Church May Have Shaped Controversial Worldview

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by ace1914

Good or bad, here comes your next Palin/Obama comparison.


Palin's Church May Have Shaped Controversial Worldview

I dont think her quoted statement is good or bad although I'd like to see religion kept out of politics. Granted, I didnt watch the video but she should stand by her beliefs so I have no problem with the quote. Better to know someone than not when having to cast a ballot for or against.


/graciousness

[Flasch186]

Well now it seems a couple of the talking heads got caught on an open mike and were expressing their true (because the cameras were off) feelings on the Palin selection:

Noonan, Murphy trash Palin on hot mic: 'It's over' - Yahoo! News

Arles, Im not painting it one way or the other.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Her quote is fine, it's more this one (if confirmed) that would be interesting:

That is nothing worse than the emails I get forwarded by my mother-in-law and what alot of the ultra-religious-right pretty much believe. There are extremest of all kinds, and I try to stay away from all of them (both the left and the right) when I can.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

New state polls are out and they look good for Obama:

Iowa: Obama 55 McCain 40
Minnesota: Obama 53 McCain 41
Ohio: Obama 47 McCain 45

That Ohio poll is far from good for Obama. He got a 6-8 point boost in nationwide polls overall, but only a 2 point boost in Ohio. We'll have to wait to see what it shows after the RNC convention to see if it evens out (Ohio was a dead heat before the conventions).

[Flasch186]

now they count?

[Noop]

[Noop]

I submit with no comment.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Noop

I submit with no comment.

I am shocked that an underaged teenager is drinking. Shocked

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I am shocked that an underaged teenager is drinking. Shocked

Family values.

[Noop]

[Flasch186]

yeah, no biggie to me....now if she were preggo at the time it'd be completely different

[Noop]

[Noop]

No biggie? Being 16 it is conceivable that she might have a drivers license and car.

Just Saying.

[astrosfan64]

Originally Posted by Arles

You keep playing this game of acting like you are completely impartial when you've been nothing of the sort in this thread. Neither have I or pretty much any other poster, but we aren't sticking our nose up at everyone else when they argue their point of view. If you think you are being completely impartial, there's obviously nothing I can say to change that in your mind. So, we'll just leave it to the readers of this thread to decide if this image you've made of yourself in your own mind is accurate.

I can say that both you and flasch are FAR from being impartial, but at least arles admits it. I would like to state that I am only partial to logic.

My journey on this election.


I wanted Rudy for Republican and President

I wanted Obama for Democrat over Hillary

I wanted Obama for the president

I heard Obama having to think on his feet (and I realized he sounds just like George Bush) Great Speaker unlike George, but sounds even worse then George if you catch him unprepared on a topic.

I saw Obama go back on some key points that made me think he wasn't the "agent of change he claimed to be" (turning down campaign reform e.g. public funds) (turning down the town hall style of debates)

I decided to go with McCain

McCain is going to pick Joe Liberman ( I'm really excited that he is crossing party lines and picking his choice)

They announce Palin

I read about Palin's history and stances and hear how McCain really wanted Liberman but they talked him out of it.

I throw up on myself

I'm back to Obama - he would really have to screw up for me to change at this point. If he does get that bad, I would just throw in the towel and go back vote independent.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Noop

No biggie? Being 16 it is conceivable that she might have a drivers license and car.

Just Saying.

If people want to argue that it is not a good idea to have a VP in office that believes in ultra-conservative right wing religious views, then I'll 100% agree with them. If you're wanting to talk about pictures of underaged drinking, I can point you to facebook or myspace where you can find all kinds of example of this I am sure.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Alan T

If people want to argue that it is not a good idea to have a VP in office that believes in ultra-conservative right wing religious views, then I'll 100% agree with them. If you're wanting to talk about pictures of underaged drinking, I can point you to facebook or myspace where you can find all kinds of example of this I am sure.

To my knowledge none of those kid's parent is potentially one heartbeat away from being president of the United States of America. If she can not keep her house in order, how can she potentially run a country.

[SirFozzie]

Real Clear Politics just released snippets of tonight's speech by Palin:

On her experience as a public servant:

"I had the privilege of living most of my life in a small town. I was just your average hockey mom, and signed up for the PTA because I wanted to make my kids' public education better. When I ran for city council, I didn't need focus groups and voter profiles because I knew those voters, and knew their families, too. Before I became governor of the great state of Alaska, I was mayor of my hometown. And since our opponents in this presidential election seem to look down on that experience, let me explain to them what the job involves. I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a 'community organizer,' except that you have actual responsibilities."

On why she is going to Washington, D.C.:

"I'm not a member of the permanent political establishment. And I've learned quickly, these past few days, that if you're not a member in good standing of the Washington elite, then some in the media consider a candidate unqualified for that reason alone. But here's a little news flash for all those reporters and commentators: I'm not going to Washington to seek their good opinion - I'm going to Washington to serve the people of this country."

On energy policies that the McCain-Palin administration will implement:

"Our opponents say, again and again, that drilling will not solve all of America's energy problems - as if we all didn't know that already. But the fact that drilling won't solve every problem is no excuse to do nothing at all. Starting in January, in a McCain-Palin administration, we're going to lay more pipelines...build more nuclear plants...create jobs with clean coal...and move forward on solar, wind, geothermal, and other alternative sources. We need American energy resources, brought to you by American ingenuity, and produced by American workers."

On John McCain:

"Here's how I look at the choice Americans face in this election. In politics, there are some candidates who use change to promote their careers. And then there are those, like John McCain, who use their careers to promote change.

[VPI97]

Is it just me or does the girl in those pictures look nothing like Bristol Palin?

Just sayin...

[Noop]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Is it just me or does the girl in those pictures look nothing like Bristol Palin?

Just sayin...

I have read that and that's why I removed the other photos, according to the site I got the photo's from these two photos are indeed her.

Not 100% sure though.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Is it just me or does the girl in those pictures look nothing like Bristol Palin?

Just sayin...

Stunt double.