When is a Band No Longer That Band?

[JPhillips]

Hearing about the upcoming 60th anniversary of the Rolling Stones got me thinking. When is a band no longer the same band? Or to put it another way, how much of the original lineup does a band need to retain to still be that band?

And, to be clear, I think the Stones are still the Stones even with the loss of Watts. Would, though, Paul McCartney and Ringo be enough to be The Beatles?

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Hearing about the upcoming 60th anniversary of the Rolling Stones got me thinking. When is a band no longer the same band? Or to put it another way, how much of the original lineup does a band need to retain to still be that band?

And, to be clear, I think the Stones are still the Stones even with the loss of Watts. Would, though, Paul McCartney and Ringo be enough to be The Beatles?

It's a good discussion point.

I think the McCartney and Ringo could reform and label it the "Beatles", I mean that's what the Who did right. But I think most people would consider it sacrilege because of John Lennon (apologies to George Harrison). Because John and Paul were pretty much the heart and soul of the Beatles.

The Stones are still the Stones because you have Jagger and Keef. And I think that it's all pretty much Jagger wanting it to still be the Stones, I think if he would drop dead tomorrow, Keef would wrap it up.

I mean we see it with most of the 80's and 90's acts, like Stone Temple Pilots, INXS, Journey, Alice in Chains, etc, that the death of a front man tends to stunt those bands to tribute acts, nobody but diehards are scrambling for their new material. Dave Grohl kind of broke the formula by making his own band out of the ashes of Nirvana.

Older bands seemed to be the outliers to this. I think AC/DC is the outlier as well as Pink Floyd who did it twice. Genesis was successful once with it and then failed at it until Phil Collins returned (Remember "Calling All Stations" apparently no one answered).

Van Halen seemed to be hit or miss with it's lead singer choices, I'm doubtful they'll continue without their primary namesake.

So I think the boomer generation bands could kind of get away with it, but Gen X and beyond seem to be more on the fence with band identity.

[Critch]

A couple of months ago my wife and I were planning on going to see The Guess Who in DC, but when we checked out the lineup the only original member was the drummer, none of the others had been in the band pre-1990. If the only original member is the drummer, it's not the same band. They're not The Guess Who anymore, they're a Guess Who tribute band.

Similarly, I saw a documentary about some hobbyists getting a World War II Spitfire into the air. By the end they got it into the air, but there was only a handful of original parts still in the plane. Surely it needs more than a few bolts to still be a World War II Spitfire.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Critch

A couple of months ago my wife and I were planning on going to see The Guess Who in DC, but when we checked out the lineup the only original member was the drummer, none of the others had been in the band pre-1990. If the only original member is the drummer, it's not the same band. They're not The Guess Who anymore, they're a Guess Who tribute band.

Similarly, I saw a documentary about some hobbyists getting a World War II Spitfire into the air. By the end they got it into the air, but there was only a handful of original parts still in the plane. Surely it needs more than a few bolts to still be a World War II Spitfire.

Sounds like the Ship_of_Theseus

[Groundhog]

Yeah interesting topic. For me with most bands I like there tends to be a specific thing about them that I like - vocalist, bass player, etc. and once those have been replaced, I don't really view it the same. Like with Chris Squire passing away recently, I think seeing a live Yes show without the original vocalist (Anderson) or Squire on bass would not feel like a Yes show to me.

[thesloppy]

I had this discussion with friends recently, when one of them was going to see Three Dog Night with only one dog.


I would like to offer the list of Blood Sweat and Tears past members:

Blood, Sweat & Tears - Wikipedia

[bob]

If Jerry Cantrell is still there, it’s still Alice In Chains.

[GrantDawg]

Can I piggy back a question? At what point is seeing a performer play not really seeing that performer? That is weird way to put the question, but my wife and I were just having this discussion a few days ago. Is going to see someone in concert when they are way past thier prime really all that great? There are many performers that still get huge money for tickets when they really can't preform that well anymore.

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[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Can I piggy back a question? At what point is seeing a performer play not really seeing that performer? That is weird way to put the question, but my wife and I were just having this discussion a few days ago. Is going to see someone in concert when they are way past thier prime really all that great? There are many performers that still get huge money for tickets when they really can't preform that well anymore.

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Both of these questions falls under "it varies" to me.

I have a great example of your question I think: I saw Sinatra at Chastain in 1991. He was using a teleprompter heavily to get him through the set. We knew he wasn't anywhere near the Frank of legend ... but at the same time, I left feeling like I'd seen him. There was enough of the magic still there that you could get it (and maybe your brain filled in some of the gaps)

Now in the more current sense, you couldn't give me tickets to some of the popular 80s rock nostalgia tours that are underway. I've seen enough to know that I'd be nothing but disappointed by people who simply don't have anything left in the tank.

Is the difference as simple as "I never saw otherwise" vs "I saw when they were at their peak"? Maybe.

[thesloppy]

Yeah, I have no desire to see the octogenarian Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney, Bob Dylan or Brain Wilson, but I have plenty of friends that are still willing to pay big bucks "to see the greats". I don't see the value at this point, even though I love that music, but to each their own.

[GrantDawg]

McCartney was the one in particular we were discussing. I absolutely love the man, but I just can't see paying $200-$700 to see him at this point. It just not worth that to me to say I was in the same building as him.

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[tarcone]

When Sammy Hagar joins.

[PilotMan]

When is a boy band no longer a boy band?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

McCartney was the one in particular we were discussing. I absolutely love the man, but I just can't see paying $200-$700 to see him at this point. It just not worth that to me to say I was in the same building as him.

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We saw him in 2014 and he was great live. Granted, 8 years ago, but he was still old.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Sounds like the Ship_of_Theseus

This was what I was thinking about, too

SI

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Now in the more current sense, you couldn't give me tickets to some of the popular 80s rock nostalgia tours that are underway. I've seen enough to know that I'd be nothing but disappointed by people who simply don't have anything left in the tank.

I'm thinking Motley Crue here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I'm thinking Motley Crue here.

They were shit live in their prime and it sure ain't go no better.

But I have less than zero interest in seeing Def Lep live for at least a decade or so either so it ain't like it's just Vince that's an issue.

[QuikSand]

a case study as an outlier perhaps:

any group of suitably buffed and dressed men put onto stage in appropriate singing and gyration appropriately are The Village People, all letters capitalized to signify the proper noun

[CrimsonFox]

of courfse it is. whoever owns the name can flog it to dewath....SOOOOOOO many bands of the 60, 50s, 70s, 80s, 90s still touring with 1 or 2 members.

Styx with only Tommy and JY with occasional Chuck

Yes with ONLY Steve Howe

Fleetwood MAC once had a lineup that had none of the members except Fleetwood

Genesis did an album without Phil Collins, Just Bank and RUtherford

Has always been the case really

The Temptations toured 2 groups at once. one with Eddie Kenrick/David Ruffin and the other with Otis and Melvin

Then management merged them back together...

[Ksyrup]

Foreigner with only Mick Jones and 4 hair metal alums is way better than the last time Mick and Lou and whoever else performed together.

[Mota]

Whenever the main songwriters leave, it's a different band. I think the singer would be #2 priority.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Foreigner with only Mick Jones and 4 hair metal albums is way better than the last time Mick and Lou and whoever else performed together.

In terms of performance, they might just be the best of the "heavily revised lineup" bands from the 70s 80s or 90s. One of the relative few I wouldn't have a big problem seeing (though I haven't actually bothered to actually do so, so that's kinda fwiw I guess)

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Mota

Whenever the main songwriters leave, it's a different band. I think the singer would be #2 priority.

That's pretty much my take, as well. But there are going to be plenty of outliers because there are plenty of unique bands out there.

For instance, would Heart be Heart without one of the Wilson sisters? Could it work with Ann but not Nancy? Vice versa?

I would have considered Rush to still be Rush (in concert, at least) with Taylor Hawkins on drums to replace Neil Peart, but now if they toured it would be Geddy Lee, Alex Lifeson and Random Drummer for me.

[thesloppy]

On the other hand, in the early '90s I saw David Lee Roth solo with three random dudes in a tiny club playing Van Halen songs, and it was one of the best shows I have ever been to.

[CrimsonFox]

It's just not CHeap Trick without Bun E Carlos

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

On the other hand, in the early '90s I saw David Lee Roth solo with three random dudes in a tiny club playing Van Halen songs, and it was one of the best shows I have ever been to.

Depending on the exact year & tour, his band was generally a little more than "random". DLR Band members in the 80s & 90s included Steve Vai, Billy Sheehan, John 5 (on bass)and Edgar Winter. Not to mention Matt & Gregg Bisonette, Steve "The Deacon" Hunter, Ray Luzier, and some top studio musicians who rarely toured otherwise.

It really wasn't until into the 2000s that the star power in his band tailed off noticeably

[GrantDawg]

Would it Milli without Vanilli?

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Depending on the exact year & tour, his band was generally a little more than "random". DLR Band members in the 80s & 90s included Steve Vai, Billy Sheehan, John 5 (on bass)and Edgar Winter. Not to mention Matt & Gregg Bisonette, Steve "The Deacon" Hunter, Ray Luzier, and some top studio musicians who rarely toured otherwise.

It really wasn't until into the 2000s that the star power in his band tailed off noticeably

The internets tells me it was July '94

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

The internets tells me it was July '94

Guitar(s) were pretty anonymous in '94, bassist was a Peter Frampton longtime band member, drummer was largely anonymous (one of the few years where that would have been true for DLR), keyboard player John Tuggle was longtime stage member of Fleetwood Mac.

Tuggle passed away last month at the age of 70 after a career that saw him also play extensively with Steppenwolf and Rick Springfield, as well as being a primary songwriter for DLR for most of the 3-4 albums.

[thesloppy]

It was fun. It was probably a low point for Roth cuz that seems like a relatively anonymous bunch & the space he was playing is pretty tiny, but it was all the better for me.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Depending on the exact year & tour, his band was generally a little more than "random". DLR Band members in the 80s & 90s included Steve Vai, Billy Sheehan, John 5 (on bass)and Edgar Winter. Not to mention Matt & Gregg Bisonette, Steve "The Deacon" Hunter, Ray Luzier, and some top studio musicians who rarely toured otherwise.

It really wasn't until into the 2000s that the star power in his band tailed off noticeably

Yeah, I dream of seeing the Eat 'Em and Smile years DLR band in concert. I love that album so much! Such a group of incredible musicians at the top of their game.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

That's pretty much my take, as well. But there are going to be plenty of outliers because there are plenty of unique bands out there.

For instance, would Heart be Heart without one of the Wilson sisters? Could it work with Ann but not Nancy? Vice versa?

I would have considered Rush to still be Rush (in concert, at least) with Taylor Hawkins on drums to replace Neil Peart, but now if they toured it would be Geddy Lee, Alex Lifeson and Random Drummer for me.

I guess that's why there isn't a fixed answer for all bands. The soul of every band is different.

Sometimes a major change is even for the good. Genesis lost their leading man Peter Gabriel, Phil Collins took over the lead spot and it became a completely different, and more commercially successful band.

I'm a huge Dream Theater fan. Mike Portnoy quit in 2010, he wasn't the main songwriter or leading man, but he definitely was the soul of the band. They went from being a heavily bootlegged band, with different shows in every city, and special sets, to a band that plays the exact same set every night to a click track. The musicianship is still amazing, but the "magic" is gone in my opinion.

[NobodyHere]

When Jake Blues died the band just wasn't as good. Although Blues Brothers 2000 had a stronger lineup of musical guests.

[Edward64]

When Steve Perry left, it was no longer Journey.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

That's pretty much my take, as well. But there are going to be plenty of outliers because there are plenty of unique bands out there.

For instance, would Heart be Heart without one of the Wilson sisters? Could it work with Ann but not Nancy? Vice versa?

I would have considered Rush to still be Rush (in concert, at least) with Taylor Hawkins on drums to replace Neil Peart, but now if they toured it would be Geddy Lee, Alex Lifeson and Random Drummer for me.

dude, you should see the "Rush Tribute Project" They are amazing

They played for 4 hours

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Edward64

When Steve Perry left, it was no longer Journey.

Pinel is amazing

I'm just pissed that Neal Schon kicked out Vallory and Smith

[Ksyrup]

When we last saw Journey, Steve Augeri was the vocalist and they were good. But honestly, the drummer, Deen Castronovo, has a better voice than any of the replacements, including Pinel. He sang Mother Father and absolutely stole the show.

[Edward64]

Pinel is amazing, what a "rags to riches" story.

I didn't think Steve Augeri was that great.

[Ksyrup]

Speaking of which, the definition of "not the same band" would be the reported 2023 reunion tour for Pantera - minus the 2 dead brothers who founded it, of course. I thought Phil did a decent job on the Slayer tour playing Pantera covers with his band, but that's as far as it should go.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Pinel is amazing, what a "rags to riches" story.

I didn't think Steve Augeri was that great.

I generally consider him the best full-time replacement vocalist since Brian Johnson

[thesloppy]

Is Fleetwood Mac the best example of a successful replacement band? There are a few examples, just in this thread, of bands that have replaced a singer and gone on to great success, but FM were a super popular blues band, replaced three crucial members, changed their sound entirely & most (American) folks have probably never heard of Peter Green.

[RainMaker]

My Dad was in a band with Jonathan Cain back in high school. They met up recently at a book signing (my Dad was in the book) which was cool.

I'm usually against paying big money to see older bands past their prime, but I was dragged to a Rolling Stones show years back (who I was never a big fan of anyway) and they absolutely kicked ass. One of the best shows I've ever been to.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Is Fleetwood Mac the best example of a successful replacement band? There are a few examples, just in this thread, of bands that have replaced a singer and gone on to great success, but FM were a super popular blues band, replaced three crucial members, changed their sound entirely & most (American) folks have probably never heard of Peter Green.

Probably, just given the complete change in style. But in the 70s, you had a few examples, although not as extreme. Genesis was mentioned above (although Collins was in the band). There's also Doobie Brothers after the addition of Michael McDonald. Chicago, with Peter Cetera taking over the band following the death of Terry Kath (although he was always in the band, they completely changed their sound once he took control). Black Sabbath replaced Ozzy with Dio (the first in a long string of replacement singers before Ozzy returned).

Replacement singers seem to have the most success. Paul DiAnno was replaced by Bruce Dickinson in Iron Maiden, and they took off. Mike Patton replaced Chuck Mosely with Faith No More, and they blew up.

[Groundhog]

The "classic" era Yes also swapped out the original drummer, guitarist, and keyboardist over their first 3 albums before Fragile sort of locked in what I guess most would consider their classic lineup... before I guess sort of having a 2nd "classic" lineup with their 90125 lineup in the early 80s.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Probably, just given the complete change in style. But in the 70s, you had a few examples, although not as extreme. Genesis was mentioned above (although Collins was in the band). There's also Doobie Brothers after the addition of Michael McDonald. Chicago, with Peter Cetera taking over the band following the death of Terry Kath (although he was always in the band, they completely changed their sound once he took control). Black Sabbath replaced Ozzy with Dio (the first in a long string of replacement singers before Ozzy returned).

Replacement singers seem to have the most success. Paul DiAnno was replaced by Bruce Dickinson in Iron Maiden, and they took off. Mike Patton replaced Chuck Mosely with Faith No More, and they blew up.

Chicago is a good example, cuz they did totally change their sound after Kath shot himself. I always forget that Bill Ward was also gone for one (or more?) of those Dio Sabbath records.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

The "classic" era Yes also swapped out the original drummer, guitarist, and keyboardist over their first 3 albums before Fragile sort of locked in what I guess most would consider their classic lineup... before I guess sort of having a 2nd "classic" lineup with their 90125 lineup in the early 80s.

Yeah, that's a good one.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Speaking of which, the definition of "not the same band" would be the reported 2023 reunion tour for Pantera - minus the 2 dead brothers who founded it, of course. I thought Phil did a decent job on the Slayer tour playing Pantera covers with his band, but that's as far as it should go.

As you'd imagine, this has been a pretty popular topic in my socials.

My reaction is leaning toward being, umm, pretty harsh. BUT I will note this much for now: most media coverage uses the word "reunion", a few opted for "tribute"

I think the latter is going to be received relatively well ultimately, particularly if the tone is consistently respectful. The former? These two m'fers will become the worst exampe of moneygrabbing since Wendy "Hologram Bitch" Dio.

Everything today so far stems from a press release by their booking agent. The only things Rex and Phil have ever said themselves (previously) focused on the "tribute" aspect.

So while I do have the tar bubbling in the cauldron, I'm not gathering feathers until we see how it plays out.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

As you'd imagine, this has been a pretty popular topic in my socials.

My reaction is leaning toward being, umm, pretty harsh. BUT I will note this much for now: most media coverage uses the word "reunion", a few opted for "tribute"

I think the latter is going to be received relatively well ultimately, particularly if the tone is consistently respectful. The former? These two m'fers will become the worst exampe of moneygrabbing since Wendy "Hologram Bitch" Dio.

Everything today so far stems from a press release by their booking agent. The only things Rex and Phil have ever said themselves (previously) focused on the "tribute" aspect.

So while I do have the tar bubbling in the cauldron, I'm not gathering feathers until we see how it plays out.

I love Pantera. Not really interested in seeing this tribute though.

About 20 years ago, I went to a King's X show in Toronto. It was a pretty small show, in the hundreds, not thousands. Small club. During the show Dug welcomed a few friends and pointed right beside me, and then I realize that I've been watching the show right beside Pantera and never noticed. I was right beside Rex, and we had a few cool moments when we were loving the music. After the show I got Dimebag's autograph on my King's X setlist that I grabbed.

[Young Drachma]

This happens so often when a person takes the name and keeps them playing with different people. I like to think of band reboots like television shoot reboots. But it really depends on the act, some acts really benefit from refreshing the membership especially if their new output feels part of the same story arc.

Most times though, they'd be better off just starting with a new name and working from there. I do understand financially why most would not do that.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Mota

I love Pantera. Not really interested in seeing this tribute though.

About 20 years ago, I went to a King's X show in Toronto. It was a pretty small show, in the hundreds, not thousands. Small club. During the show Dug welcomed a few friends and pointed right beside me, and then I realize that I've been watching the show right beside Pantera and never noticed. I was right beside Rex, and we had a few cool moments when we were loving the music. After the show I got Dimebag's autograph on my King's X setlist that I grabbed.

You had me at King's X.

Stoked to hear the new album in about a month and a half, even if they're not what they used to be. I've had tickets to 3 shows canceled/postponed 4 or 5 times due to Jerry's heart attacks and Covid.