Why wasn't a bigger deal made of Bonds joining the 500-500 Club?

[ISiddiqui]

Apparently, I've just been informed that Barry Bonds, on Monday, stole a base to become the first player in baseball history to hit 500 Home Runs and Steal 500 Bases. To put this into perspective there isn't even anyone in the 400-400 Club. And there is NO active player even in the 250-250.

While everyone was focusing on Clemens winning 300 and striking out 4000 (which has been done by Nolan Ryan and Steve Carlton before), Bonds was doing something which may never be equaled.

It seems a shame that this monumental achievement wasn't recognized.

[tucker342]

Barry Bonds is my all time favorite baseball player, so it was a big deal for me. But most people don't really like Barry Bonds, plus he's not very popular with the press. It's sad that it didn't get anymore press than it did...

[Anrhydeddu]

For the same reason his historical homerun ball fetched only $450,000.

[tucker342]

That probably had alot more to do with the economy than anything would be my guess...

[ISiddiqui]

Bonds will be remembered as the most un-appreciated player in his ball playing days. When he's through, he'll easily be in the Top 10 players of all time. Shame that most people don't want to see this. Hell, remember Ted Williams was thought to be a jerk during his career too.

[dacman]

ESPN did a short bit on it both on Baseball Tonight and on Sportscenter, so it's not like they ignored it or anything. The rest was indeed the media being cool on Bonds (and vice versa for that matter).

The thing that interested me was the Peter Gammons thought that no current player will ever duplicate it. Frankly, considering the proliferation of home run hitting, I think someone who is a decent base-stealer will eventually repeat the feat. After pouring over a bunch of stats, I did find one candidate I thought may have a chance. Care to venture a guess?

[TroyF]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Bonds will be remembered as the most un-appreciated player in his ball playing days. When he's through, he'll easily be in the Top 10 players of all time. Shame that most people don't want to see this. Hell, remember Ted Williams was thought to be a jerk during his career too.

He's one of the top 10 players to ever play the game right now, if he never takes another swing of the bat.

TroyF

[clintl]

Originally posted by dacman
Frankly, considering the proliferation of home run hitting, I think someone who is a decent base-stealer will eventually repeat the feat. After pouring over a bunch of stats, I did find one candidate I thought may have a chance. Care to venture a guess?

The fact that HRs have been up in recent years makes it less likely that another 500-500 player will emerge from today's active players - base stealing always goes down in eras where HRs go up. You have to remember that when Bonds entered MLB, base stealing was a lot more common (it was the heyday of Whitey ball), and Bonds racked up a lot of steals as a leadoff hitter in his early years. In fact, it wasn't until a few years ago that his HR total passed his SB total, despite the fact that he has pretty consistently had more HR than SB throughout his Giants career.

If I had to guess, I would guess that you're thinking of Alfonso Soriano. It would have to be someone like that (still very early in his career, so he's under the radar at this point for career numbers). But he plays a position that makes him a lot more susceptible to injury, so we'll have to wait and see.

[bosshogg23]

dacman I agree with clintl that you are thinking of Soriano. ARod is wayyyyyyyy too far off the pace in SB's.

TroyF he is definitely a top 10.....probably top 5. One of the greatest of all time no question. I wish he wasnt an ass alot of the time but that doesnt change what he has done on the field.

When I was younger I used to root for Bonilla on the Pirates and not Bonds....he always came across as an ass. I wish I would have realized I was watching such a great player at the time.

[Chief Rum]

dacman: I'm thinking you're either looking at Guerrero or Soriano, although maybe ARod, too.

Vlad will probably end up hitting 500 HRs, since he's over 200 right now, going strong and just 27 years old. His stolen base totals aren't so hot for his career (low 100s), but he has really turned it on and averaged nearly 40 each of the past two seasons. The only problem here is that stealing bases is best done while young, as speed is one of the first skills to go with age. I think Vlad might have started getting steals a little too late to get to 500 steals.

The only thing holding Soriano back right now is that he hasn't been doing it long enough for us to claim that he will definitely keep it up. The odds look good though. He has power in spades, and he steals a bunch, and he's just 25.

ARod has the HRs easy, of course, and he's already up at 165 or so steals. The problem is that ARod has largely abandsoned the stealing eh did as a Mariner (when he put up some 30+ seasons). He's just 28 (or will be in a month), so I don't think age is the issue yet--I just don't think he considers it a priority anymore. Or he just doesn't get to first a lot (bastard keeps moving right on to the next bases... ).

As for the lack of attention on Bonds' achievement, there are two things that come to mind. First, as big an achievement as it is, a big too-doo was made about 400-400. I think many writers feel it's over and done with. I mean, think about it--every base Bonds steals is new territory for a 500 (or even 400) HR hitter. Should we make a big deal about all of them? I think the media probably feels Bonds has gotten enough exposure for this particular achievement, and aren't interested in dwelling on it too much.

Second, of course, is that you reap what you sow. Say what you want about Bonds being a top player in baseball history (he most certainly is, as Troy said), but not a lot of guys want to play up a jerk, especially one who has made it a notable career note to be particularly jerky to the media. Not to mention that Barry has gotten plenty of media exposure over the past three years. It's quite possible the media is tired of "Bonds this, Bonds that". Or maybe it's the readership (since that determines what media writes about, for the most part). Maybe the general public is sick of Bonds (it wouldn't surprise me).

Someone brought up Ted Williams was thought of as a jerk. My understanding that much of the time, Ted Williams WAS a jerk, no thought of about it. And he got shafted by the media, too. Which doesn't take away from his pedigree as a ballplayer, but there are consequences to being a bit of a bitch at times.

Chief Rum

[dacman]

Basestealers will always steal bases even if there's lots of power in the lineup (see the Atlanta Braves for example (i.e. Sheff, Furcal)). Even the best HR hitters only hit one every 15 or so plate appearances so you can't just stand around hoping for a HR every time you get on-base. Yes, good power will effect SB's overall, but that's usually because the average runners just don't (run), IMHO. In the past, they did to an extent.

And yes, it was Alfonso Soriano.

[mckerney]

Plain and simple, he's an asshole. More importantly, he's an asshole towards those who cover the game. Piss off the media, they're not gonna hype up your accomplishments all that much.

[Havok]

yeah.... what Mckerney said.

If it was Cal Ripkin that did it (500/500) it'd be the biggest thing to happen in baseball since Hank Arron won the all time home run title.

Thats because Cal Ripkin is everything you want in a baseball player, Barry Bonds is everything you don't wont. He's a dickhead and i'll be glad when he retires.


P.S. i respect his baseball abilty, just not him.

[daedalus]

It is good to demand preferential treatment? To stay in a separate hotel than your teammates? To make a fuss and make the manager's life harder when the team needed you to be moved to a different position for the good of the team? Sounds a lot less like what I want from a ballplayer.

I can't say that Bonds has been a perfect citizen. In fact, he's been a jerk to a lot of people and I agree that it is the reason he's not getting as much publicity as he ought to. That and the aformentioned fact that it's been so much "Bonds this, Bonds that" the last few years.

[Havok]

It is good to demand preferential treatment? To stay in a separate hotel than your teammates? To make a fuss and make the manager's life harder when the team needed you to be moved to a different position for the good of the team? Sounds a lot less like what I want from a ballplayer.

your not refering to Cal are ya??? Cause if you are, your way way off base.

[MrBug708]

Because it's Barry Bond's, because it came on a play where Gagne wasn't watching because he is not used to having runners on base.

I'm a Dodger fan, so what?

[daedalus]

Originally posted by Havok
your not refering to Cal are ya??? Cause if you are, your way way off base.

Yes, I was. I was off-base?

[EagleFan]

There are several reasons.

1) Bonds is seen as a jerk.
2) Been there, done that with the 400/400. Plus the 500th homerun and everything else he has done. As was stated earlier, when he reached 400/400 as the only member he stopped breaking anyone's records in that respect.
3) The stolen base is unfortunately not as big a part of the game now. It's all about the glamour stats.
4) Bonds isn't a Yankee. With all the attention he has received, I can't imagine how much worse it would be if he were a Yankee. People that can't stand hearing about him now would be jumping off builings listening to all the press he would be getting. "This just in, Bonds has taken his 100th dump in the team's restroom..."

[Havok]

you obviously don't follow Orioles baseball very well to make statements about Cal like that. He is like a god in Maryland. The whole different hotel thing was like a one time problem and it was blown way out of proportion. I don't remember the whole story but it wasn't a big deal.

It wasn't a big deal when he was asked to move to third base either. But when you've played SS for 16 years (won 3 or 4 golden gloves) on the same team its not easy to just step aside. But he did.......

To say Cal was not the ideal baseball player is like saying Brett Favre isn't the ideal football player. He was the heart and soul of that team for 20 years and he was the only reason people still went to the games a few years ago.(now noone goes to the games).

Why do you think in Cal's last season every single stadium he went to he got a standing ovation for 5-10 mins?? He used to be the only guy who would sign autographs until everyone that wanted one got one after the game. Sometimes it would take him 2 hours but he still did. He's involved in so many charity's in maryland its almost scary.

Sorry to take it so personal, but growing up in maryland/D.C. and being a home team fan my whole life. There are 3 players that i feel this way about.

Darrell Green, Dale Hunter and of course, Cal Ripkin.

[cthomer5000]

So we should go crazy just because his stolen bases hit a round number?

I'm so sick of this bullshit in sports. Unless you are breaking a record, what is the big deal?

[oykib]

So we should go crazy just because his stolen bases hit a round number?
I'm so sick of this bullshit in sports. Unless you are breaking a record, what is the big deal?

It is a record in the sense that it is something that has never been done before.

As for the round number thing: Round numbers make it easy to get our minds around an accomplishment. It's ridiculous when the sports media go crazy about some hodgepodge stat like the first guy to have five years in a row where he hit .307, with 28 homers, 12 steals, 5 tripples, and 37 doubles. What the hell does that mean?

500 steals = great basestealer ( great speed/ smart baserunner/ etc. ) This stat goes to how smart and athletic he is.

500 homers = power hitter ( slugger/ dramatic Ruthian hero ) this tells you that he's not just the thinking man's hero. He's the Hercules of the masses.

These things make perfect sense to me.

you obviously don't follow Orioles baseball very well to make statements about Cal like that. He is like a god in Maryland. The whole different hotel thing was like a one time problem and it was blown way out of proportion. I don't remember the whole story but it wasn't a big deal.
It wasn't a big deal when he was asked to move to third base either. But when you've played SS for 16 years (won 3 or 4 golden gloves) on the same team its not easy to just step aside. But he did.......
To say Cal was not the ideal baseball player is like saying Brett Favre isn't the ideal football player. He was the heart and soul of that team for 20 years and he was the only reason people still went to the games a few years ago.(now noone goes to the games).
Why do you think in Cal's last season every single stadium he went to he got a standing ovation for 5-10 mins?? He used to be the only guy who would sign autographs until everyone that wanted one got one after the game. Sometimes it would take him 2 hours but he still did. He's involved in so many charity's in maryland its almost scary.
Sorry to take it so personal, but growing up in maryland/D.C. and being a home team fan my whole life. There are 3 players that i feel this way about.
Darrell Green, Dale Hunter and of course, Cal Ripkin.

No we don't all hail from Maryland. What you posted just illustrates the point that daedalus was making. At least half of how we view a player has to do with how the guys in the media decide to portray him.

Cal Ripken got standing ovations in stadiums around America because everyone thinks he is a hero. I am not saying that he's not. I am not saying that he is. I don't know.

But I do know some stories that I've heard about him that would've gotten a player like Bonds crucified. There's a story that he got his GM fired because he held a grudge because said GM didn't hold the team plane for him when he was late. Maybe that story is not true. But it never got enough play for us to know the validity of it.

I judge athletes on how they play. If Ripken got 10 minutes per stadium. Well... they better stay standing from the national anthem until the end of Bonds's last at bat when he is retiring.

By the way, Bonds is indubitably a top five player. With his last few seasons he is, at the very least the equal of Ted Williams. I would say that his speed and defense put him him past Williams. But even if it's a draw, Williams is a top five player. So Bonds has to be also.

[Alan T]

I actually have much more amazement of his overall Home run total than a mark such as 500/500.

I feel stolen bases have long been an overrated stat, and there have been many cases in history of players "padding SB totals". It is somewhat hard to "pad a HR total". Also I am guessing that you would see more 30/30 guys, more 40/40 guys in a season, and likewise overall in careers more guys with higher stolen base numbers if stolen bases were considered as big of a deal back in few generations ago.

Congrats to Bonds on reaching 500/500, but I dont know that I would consider this one of his 5 best achievments...

[MizzouRah]

I don't like him much, but I consider him quite possibly the best hitter I've ever seen. The guy can flat out hit the baseball, it's too bad everyone walks him or he'd have more records to break.


Todd

[Easy Mac]

SB are overrated? So if he hadn't have stolen that base, San Francisco stiil would have won on that single, correct? What an idiot.

I tell you why nothing more was said. Roger Clemens has always been an ass, but sportswriters orgasmed as he neared 300. Thats not even a record, 20 other people had done it before. I don't think I have to spell out the reasons why that got more pub than Bonds.

[Alan T]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
SB are overrated? So if he hadn't have stolen that base, San Francisco stiil would have won on that single, correct? What an idiot.

Nice. Calling people names to try to prove a point

Who says that they wouldn't have won without that stolen base. You are taking one single event to justify all stolen bases. That is not very practical.

I also said that Barry Bonds had many other events that I felt were much more significant than this. I can't say how people would think this is bigger than his going over 600 HR, or 73 HR in a season. I even would argue that his incredible OBP and OPS that he had in his best season ever was a much bigger deal to me.

Barry Bonds is an amazing player. Probably the best I have seen as well in my lifetime (I only caught the tail in of Aaron, Mays, etc). But please do not compare this to his other amazing, incredible accomplishments.

[rexallllsc]

1. Because he's an a-hole. He's hates by his teammates, and the fans of every other California team like no other player I've ever seen. Clemens comes off as a prick as well, but has never gotten caught for beating his wife, so who knows...

2. He's on the West Coast.

3. It happened at roughly 10:45pm PST in the 11th inning of a game.

As a Dodger fan, I truly hate Barry...but I do think he's probably the greatest player I've seen play the game...

[tucker342]

The thing is no one has or ever will come close to joining the 500-500 club, hell no one is even in the 400-400 club. Someone will break his homerun record, probably within the next 10 years... that's why this record is such a big deal in my opinion, cause no one will ever come even close to breaking this record

[Travis]

Um Barry and defense in the same sentence? I think not. Move him to the AL and he'd be a DH on most of the teams immediately. A great batter yes, base stealer, not bad, but not as good as he used to be of course (then again, these days, who is), but in the field, he may just pull a Jose Canseco yet.

[oykib]

Originally posted by Travis
Um Barry and defense in the same sentence? I think not. Move him to the AL and he'd be a DH on most of the teams immediately. A great batter yes, base stealer, not bad, but not as good as he used to be of course (then again, these days, who is), but in the field, he may just pull a Jose Canseco yet.

He's not that bad now. He's about league average. But, of course, he's -- what-- 38?

He was a legitamate gold glove left fielder for a number of years and well above average for years more.

[ISiddiqui]

Someone brought up Ted Williams was thought of as a jerk.

Glad to see I'm not on your ignore list anymore .

--

Alan, we may just have to agree to disagree here, but I think NOTHING Bonds has done comes close to 500-500. That is his crowning achievement, IMO... The only thing that can bump that off the top spot is if he plays long enough to break Aaron's HR record.

Not only does he have power, but he puts himself into scoring position by stealing bases. It's absolutely incredible! Of course, add to that, that he walks a ton and hits for good batting average (leading to eye popping OBP numbers), and the fact that he was an above average fielder for most of his career. Then again, I don't think you are doubting he's an amazing player... and undoubtably the best of his era.

As for top 10, I agree if he retires today he'll be top 10. I didn't say top 5, because RIGHT NOW, my top 5 are:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Honus Wagner
3. Walter Johnson
4. Willie Mays
5. Lefty Grove/Ty Cobb

Bonds comes in right after that (yes, I have him better than Williams).

[Alan T]

I agree, Bonds is an amazing player. Bonds is the player everyone thought Griffey Jr would become. There are a few that think A-rod or Vlad might at some point become this kind of player, but in my lifetime I can not think of any other player I have seen that has been as good.

Perhaps I am just biased because of how I look at stolen bases. Maybe I watched too much earl Weaver when I was younger... With Bonds, I see a player who has stolen about 78% of attempted bases over his career. I would argue that out of those 500 Stolen bases, it means that Bonds has helped his team more than hurt his team only about 2-4% of the time. (or about 15 stolen bases).

So yes he has stolen alot of bases, but he also has gotten caught alot (140 times). I find his base stealing much lower on the list of my reasons for him being a great player.

[clintl]

Originally posted by Travis
Um Barry and defense in the same sentence? I think not. Move him to the AL and he'd be a DH on most of the teams immediately. A great batter yes, base stealer, not bad, but not as good as he used to be of course (then again, these days, who is), but in the field, he may just pull a Jose Canseco yet.

He has declined noticeably on defense in the recent years, but in his prime, he may have been the greatest defensive left fielder in MLB history. Certainly, no LF of recent memory was his equal.

[Havok]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Honus Wagner
3. Walter Johnson
4. Willie Mays
5. Lefty Grove/Ty Cobb

it just blows my mind how little bit of love Ted Williams gets. I'd take Ted over everyone on that list expect The Babe, and if Ted played for as many seasons as the Babe played we might all have him number one on our lists.

I respect Bonds and all....... but he can't hold Williams jock. I'd have bonds in the top 10 though. These guys hitting 50-70 homeruns now is a joke. The strike zone is so freaking small now, guys are using so many proformance enhancer's and the ball is wond so tight that i could rip the ball out of fenway.

[oykib]

I made this point back on the old board. But I think a lot of the old time ballplayers are overrated. The further back you go, the more players (especially the truly dominating ones are overrated).

There is also the second point that pitchers are not as valuable as position players.

Basically, the first point is that you can't help but discount the accomplishments of the players before World War two because they didn't face the best competition. I am not only talking about just the obvious point that there were no black or latin players (other than a few light-skinned Cubans) either.

There wasn't an organized system to funnel the best players to the majors. Even among white ballplayers. There were teams that would let the stars that were found go, or go easily, that would be considered minor league teams today. The further back that you go from WW2 the worse the teams were.

Most of how we rate the pre WW2 greats is based on-- not totals-- but dominance. That is, we say Honus Wagner is a top three player because if you take his RC total it eqauls four players from his starting lineup or Babe Ruth hit more homers than any team in the league (including his own if you take him out).

But the average player was so far below the average player now that it makes these perfomances look more impressive than they really are. There were borderline guys in the league that would be nowhere near the majors in modern times that were in the league. Bill James, in his New Historical Baseball abstract, mentions that, as late as the end of the first decade of the twentieth century, there were cases of guys buying tickets to Major League games as spectators and getting into the game before it was over.

There are a bunch of other factors. But they take too long to get into. I'm not saying that these players weren't great. Only a moron would make that argument. But they are not as great as the numbers seem to suggest.

As for pitchers not being as valuable as position players, that's what basebal executives believe. Just look at the salaries of top players. Top pitchers are paid very well. But have any pitchers cracked the $16m a year mark (AAV)? A number of position players have.

I think that Bonds is the best player since the WW2 era began. I'm going back a few years to include the full careers of Dimaggio and Williams. I think that he has clearly passed Aaron and Mantle. I think that he's probably passed Mays.

[oykib]

Originally posted by Havok
it just blows my mind how little bit of love Ted Williams gets. I'd take Ted over everyone on that list expect The Babe, and if Ted played for as many seasons as the Babe played we might all have him number one on our lists.

I respect Bonds and all....... but he can't hold Williams jock. I'd have bonds in the top 10 though. These guys hitting 50-70 homeruns now is a joke. The strike zone is so freaking small now, guys are using so many proformance enhancer's and the ball is wond so tight that i could rip the ball out of fenway.

I agree that the Homerun numbers are inflated as compared to certain other eras. But the decade of the 30s up until WW2 started was just as big hitting an era as the current one is. They just did it with ridiculous batting averages to go along with amazing power numbers, and the fact that there were very many fewer strikeouts.

As for Bonds not holding Williams's jock. Have you looked at the numbers? They are about equal as offensive players over the length of their careers. But Williams didn't run and wasn't a great defensive player.

Also, most traditional evaluators don't take into account that Williams played in a great hitters' park while Bonds has spent most of his career in the worst pitchers' parks.

[Anrhydeddu]

As an attempt at normalizing new timers vs old times, pitchers vs batters, AL vs NL, Bill James' Win Shares has this Top 10 ranking - normalized to WS/162-game season:

1. Babe Ruth 44.33
2. Ted Williams 39.43
3. Ty Cobb 38.76
4. Mickey Mantle 38.12
5. Honus Wagner 38.00
6. Tris Speaker 36.76
7. Lou Gehrig 36.60
8. Roger Hornsby 36.00
9. Joe Dimaggio 35.92
10. Barry Bonds 35.47

(Win Shares totals shows a different list with Mays, Aaron, Cy Young in the top 10, but that is more weighted to longevity.)

Just for Leftfielders - per 162 games:

1. Ted Williams 39.43
2. Barry Bonds 35.47
3. Stan Musial 32.33

Note that this was a few years ago (up to 2000). I would not be surprised to see Bonds move up the list.

[oykib]

Buc-

I think that after Bonds's 73 homer season his Win Shares number was calculated as, something like, the second highest of all time. So I'd guess that his average would have to have gone up a few points.

[Havok]

As for Bonds not holding Williams's jock. Have you looked at the numbers?

you also have to remember Teddy missed 3 full seasons fighting a war!! And he was in his prime at that time. So if you wanna go by stats add 100 homers to his already 521, 550 hits to his already 2654 hits, and 350 rbi's to his already 1,839 rbi's.

Plus the man also basically missed the entire 1952 and 53 seasons from injuries and he hardly ever finished an entire season due to injuries.


P.S. Thanx for the list Anrhydeddu, i saw something simalir to this on the OOTP forums one time. Kinda brings into prosepctive how great those older guys really were.

[Havok]

73 home runs in a season..... god how i weep for the future of baseball

They should just let them use metal bats.

[clintl]

The era of big HR totals may already be on the wane. The season is about half over, and nobody has more than 26 this year. It's very possible that the MLB leader will end up back in a more normal range (mid-to-high 40s) this year.

[Anrhydeddu]

Another way of looking at this list is to divide into eras:

Pre-Ruth:

1. Cobb
2. Wagner
3. Speaker
4. Hornsby

Ruth:

1. Ruth
2. Gehrig

WW2:

1. Williams
2. Dimaggio

Boom:

1. Mantle
(2. Mays)
(3. Aaron)

Modern:

1. Bonds

[Havok]

Ted Williams 162 game avg.-----------Barry Bonds 162 game AVG.

AB - 545----------------------------------AB - 554
R - 127------------------------------------R - 122
H - 188------------------------------------H - 164
2B - 37------------------------------------2B - 34
3B - 5 -------------------------------------3B - 5
HR - 37 -----------------------------------HR - 41
RBI - 130 ---------------------------------RBI - 110
SB - 2 --------------------------------------SB - 33
BB - 143 -----------------------------------BB - 128
SO - 50 ------------------------------------SO - 88
BA - .344 ----------------------------------BA - .295
OBP - .482 --------------------------------OBP - .428
SLG - .634 ---------------------------------SLG - .595


Barry Bonds better then Ted Williams???? i think not

[Havok]

Originally posted by clintl
The era of big HR totals may already be on the wane. The season is about half over, and nobody has more than 26 this year. It's very possible that the MLB leader will end up back in a more normal range (mid-to-high 40s) this year.

I hope your right, i might actually start watching again if they make the Strike zone normal again and test these guys for steroids multiple times a year.

[oykib]

you also have to remember Teddy missed 3 full seasons fighting a war!! And he was in his prime at that time. So if you wanna go by stats add 100 homers to his already 521, 550 hits to his already 2654 hits, and 350 rbi's to his already 1,839 rbi's.
Plus the man also basically missed the entire 1952 and 53 seasons from injuries and he hardly ever finished an entire season due to injuries.

The war years I give Williams credit for. The injuries I don't. Part of being a great athlete is staying in games. Or do you think J.D. Drew is an elite player because his rate stats are in the top ten in the league every year even though he only plays a hundred games?

73 home runs in a season..... god how i weep for the future of baseball
They should just let them use metal bats.

This is the kind of illogical statement that keeps us from getting to real solutions for the real problems with baseball. Everyone is not hitting seventy homers. It's been done twice by historic figures. We're not talking about a couple of schmoes in Bonds and Mcgwire.

The real problem with baseball is that it's lost excitement from the lack of running plays. There are not enough plays that take advantage of athleticism-- either in the field or on the bases.

Yes, there are too many home runs these days. But that's only a slight problem. And it's not the guys at the top that are the problem. It's the guys at the bottom. The problem is that every team has three or four guys that hit 25 homers, not that three guys in the past decade have cleared sixty.

What they need to focus on are ways to keep the average type hitters from having the impact that they do. You've got to turn ten of Bret Boone's homers into doubles. Get these guys, baserunners and fielders, running and making close plays. There is too much standing and walking around in baseball today, and that's only partly because of homers.

[oykib]

Originally posted by Havok
Ted Williams 162 game avg.-----------Barry Bonds 162 game AVG.

AB - 545----------------------------------AB - 554
R - 127------------------------------------R - 122
H - 188------------------------------------H - 164
2B - 37------------------------------------2B - 34
3B - 5 -------------------------------------3B - 5
HR - 37 -----------------------------------HR - 41
RBI - 130 ---------------------------------RBI - 110
SB - 2 --------------------------------------SB - 33
BB - 143 -----------------------------------BB - 128
SO - 50 ------------------------------------SO - 88
BA - .344 ----------------------------------BA - .295
OBP - .482 --------------------------------OBP - .428
SLG - .634 ---------------------------------SLG - .595


Barry Bonds better then Ted Williams???? i think not

Raw totals don't take park or era effects into account.

Would you rather spend your career in Fenway or Candlestick? And Pac Bell is even worse than Candlestick was.

Also, despite the hype, the eras that Bonds and Williams played in are about equal in terms of offensive production.

By the way, players also have to play defense.

I think that Bonds and Williams are about equal. But I'd give Bonds the edge because of Durability, longevity, and, mainly, because he did it against better competition.

[oykib]

Mad Dola--
(I just love baseball arguments)

James used a number of different criteria when evaluating players. Rating players by just their production per 162 games comes up with a major flaw.

With that system, you get mantle rating significantly higher than Mays. Mantle's peak value was higher. But Mays was clearly more valuable for his career. When you do rating/162 games, you skip over the fact that some players give you 150+ games of production every year, and some don't.

A more accurate system would have just multiplied the raw totals by 1.05 on a weighted scale for players that spent their careers in 154 game seasons. It wasn't a problem for James because he used something like six different factors in his ratings to correct for the flaws of each particular one.

[Havok]

well me and the 80% of all sports writers and baseball fanatics will have to disagree with you

And to say he played against better competion is a joke. Espically when every third pitcher in the majors as a ERA of 4.50 and everyone in there mother hits 40 home runs a year.

[Anrhydeddu]

A more accurate system would have just multiplied the raw totals by 1.05 on a weighted scale for players that spent their careers in 154 game seasons. It wasn't a problem for James because he used something like six different factors in his ratings to correct for the flaws of each particular one.

I agree, I just turned to a WS list that did not have the totals from the New Historical Baseball book as oppose to any updated lists in the WS book.

[oykib]

Well, I don't worry about what these other guys think. When Babe Ruth was playing and even after he retired it was thought that he was well behind Cobb and also behind a number of pitchers and a few of the 'lesser' Cobbs.

There is a consensus that pitching is not as good as it used to be. But there is really no evidence that it's true. ERAs are higher sure. But it's a hitters era. ERAs were high in Ted Williams day, too. It's a zero sum game. If hitters are successful, then pitchers are gonna be unseccessful.

[clintl]

Originally posted by Havok
And to say he played against better competion is a joke. Espically when every third pitcher in the majors as a ERA of 4.50 and everyone in there mother hits 40 home runs a year.

The idea that offense is unusually high in this era is largely a myth. Since 1993, the runs scored per game is pretty much in line (and in comparison to the 1930s AL, significantly less than) the typical run production from 1921-1962. In 1963, offense dropped off quite a bit in both leagues, and stayed low through 1992. So, really, I think that a big part of this rush to demean the achievements of modern hitters ignores the fact that we kind of got used to the stats typical of an era of unusually low offensive production, and baseball has only recently returned to its historical norms.

By the way, this also means that Williams played his entire career in an era that, offensively, was comparable to the final 2/3 of Bonds' career. Besides the tougher parks Bonds has played in, he also played the first 1/3 of his career in a pitcher's era.