Sab's How I Suck At Poker Dynasty

[sabotai]

In this dynasty, much like Tred's poker dynasty, I will give accounts of my time at the poker table. If you have read Tred's, you'll see that I didn't have much luck with my first night out at the tables.

I went up $8, went down $21 and finally settled on $12.25 in the hole overall.

Basically what I'm hoping for is for people to tell me what I did right, and why. What I did wrong and why. What should have tipped me off that they had a big hand. What should have tipped me off that they had a bad hand.

Basically, teach me poker as I lose money at the tables and hopefully others will learn by my mistakes.

And like Tred, I will be discussing hand where I make it passed the flop. There may be times, however, where I go through what I folded to get some opinions on if I did the right thing and if I should have played the hand.

Let's take a look at some early hands.

Hand 5 - TO start, I know what I did wrong. At least I think i do.

A few hands before, I had 8d 3d. I folded. On the flop came 3 more diamonds. Influenced by that and just wanted to test my luck (since I had been there for 5 hands and had nothing) I call. I am also in 1st position (right ahead of big blind)

On the flop comes Td, 7c, 8h and I fold. I know I should not have called.

[b]Hand 6[b] - On the big blind now. I'm dealt 4s, 8h. It comes around to me and I check. The flop is 3s, Ah, 2d. It get checked around until it gets to the guy before me (in the small blind position) and he bets. I fold.

Important note, I am starting to leanr that this guy is basically throwing money away. Important later on.

Hand 7 - In the small blind now. I get dealt Jc, Jd. It comes around to me and I call the remaining 25 cents.

The flop comes 5s, Kd, 5c and now I have Jacks and Fives. Someone bets and 2 fold out. I call. Including me, there are 5 people left.

4th Street: 2c Everyone checks.

The river is 3h. Fearing that someone might have a 3 of a kind or a full house, I just check and so does everyone else. I end up winning the pot with Jacks and Fives.

Should I have played this hand differently? Should I have bet instead of checked? Raised instead of called? If you need to know (and you probably do), I was first for all the betting. (IOW, when the flop was dealt, I went first. When the next card came, I went first again. And when the river came out, I was first again. Should I have started with a bet in any of these cases instead of checking?)

Hand 11 - My first AK hand. I got As and Ks. I am second from the big blind. I call. Someone raises (it's the guy handing out money). I call again.

The flop comes: 4d, 4s, 4h. It gets checked all around.

The next card: 9s. First person bets, next folds. I'm 3rd and I call as does everyone else. I have 4 spades, just one more for the flush.

The river: 7d. Again, the first person bets. Not having anything other than what is one the board, I fold.

Should I have folded earlier? or have held out for the flush (which is what I did)? (The winning hand ended up being a full house. Fours full of Nines)

Hand 12 - The very next hand and I'm in the big bind (the one who was supposed to have been left). Once again I get an AK. Ad Kc this time. The first position raised it to $1. I call.

The flop comes: Qd, Ks, 6c. I got Kings with ace kicker. I go first and I start off with a bet. The next person raises. This sends up a little flag in my head. It gets called around with 1 folding. 5 still in it.

The next card is Th. I start worrying about someone having the straight and start hoping the next card is a J which would give me an unbeatable straight. No straight flush possible and if a J gets dealt, no full house. I check (should I have started with a bet?).

The next guy bets. He's the one who raised before. Little flag still up. No one folds. It gets back around to me and I call.

The river card: 3c. No help there. I still have Kingd Ace kicker and I'm worrying about the guy next to me having a straight.

I check. The guy next me then checks (?), the guy after him now bets. 1 folds. It gets to me and I call as does the guy next to me. Little strange.

My worries were true, someone indeed have the straight. But it was the guy two positions down and not the guy next to me. The guy next to me also had Kings with an ace kicker.

Should I have gotten out earlier? Folded after the river? Before that?

Hand 16 - I am dealt Kd, Qc in a middle position. I decide to call. It gets raised. I call again. (Mistake?)

The flop comes: Ks, 4h, 3d. Another pair of Kings. 2 people fold and I call. 4 people left in it.

The next card comes: 7d. It gets checked around until someone bets. I call and everyone else folds. So it's down to just em and someone else. I look hard at the cards and try to think of what he might have. What I come up with is either he has 3 Kings, is hoping for a flush or trying to win with a pair in his pocket.

The river card: 4d. If he was waiting for a flush, he got it. He bets. I call. He wins.

And yes, you poker players out there probably have spotted my disasterous mistake. I completely forgot about the full house. He won with Fours full of Threes.

I looked over the log. He betted after the 4th and river cards. I'm wondering, with just a weak two pair after the 4th card (4s and 3s), why did he bet instead of letting it check around? Did he make a "correct" or an "incorrect" move?

After the 5th card, it's obvious as to why he betted.

Hand 25 - Iam dealt 7c, 9c in first position. I call.

The flop comes 4d, Ts, 9d and I fold after someone bets.

Now...I do not know what I was thinking because I do not remember this hand at all. It's possible that I was in a convo with someone on IRC at this time and just got...confused. I put it here for you guys to laugh at me.

Hand 26 - In the big blind, I'm dealt Ac, Jc. I check it to the flop.

The flop is Th, 8c, 9d. It gets raised twice before it gets to me and I fold, thinking someone must have hit their straight for it to get raised twice. Didn't want to take the chance that I wouldn't make mine. (A 6 and a K came afterwards so I wouldn't have). And someone indeed get their straigh.

Hand 36 - In the big blidn again. Dealt Kd, Td. It gets raised once and I call.

The flop comes 5s, 4c, 7d. I check, someone bets and I fold.

Hand 37 - In the small blind this time. Got 6s, Ts on the deal. I call the remaining quarter.

The flop comes Jh, Kh, 8h. I check, the next person bets. Everyone else (4 other people) call. I decide to fold. (The winner won with a flush)

Hand 42 - I find myself in the big blind again. A coupel of have either left or sat out. Hmm.

Anyway, I am dealt Kc, 3h and I check.

The flop is 8c, Qh, Ah. Someone bets and I fold.

Hand 45 - Small blind this time. I get 9d, 7d. Someone raises and when it comes to me, I decide to call $0.75

Flop: 5h, 8h, 9s. Pair of 9s with a possible straight. I check, someone bets, I call. 3 people left.

Next card: 2h. Someone bets and I fold.

Pissed me off because I would have won the pot had I kept playing. This is the hand I told some about. One of the people here kept betting even though they didn't have anything. They were beat with a pair of Eights. (I had a pair of Nines)

Hand 52 - In the big blind. 8c, 9h. I check it to the flop.

Flop: Ad, Ah, 3d. I check, someone bets, I fold.

Hand 53 - In the small blind. 4d, 8d. I call the $0.25 to get to the flop.

Flop: 4h, 9h, 7h. I check, someone bets, I fold fearing a flush (which is what the person had)

Hand 61 - Big Blind. 8d, Kd. I check it to the flop with 2 others calling (including small blind)

Flop: Ah, 7d, 2s. The three of us check.

4th Street: As. Someone has to have 3 Aces now. The three of us check it.

The river card: Ac. Someone has to have 4 aces now! The three of us check it.

No one had the ace. I end up winning a $1.50 just because I had the highest card (A king. So I won with 3 Aces with a King Kicker).

Hand 63 - I've got the button. I get dealt Th, Jh. I call when it comes to me and 6 of us continue.

The flop: Qh, 7s, Ah No way! I'm just one card away from a royal straight flush! I just need to the Kh to come out. Thinking that I would settle for any K card, and I guess just wanting to flirt with a little bluffing, I bet causing 3 people to fold.

The next card: 2d. A little more conservative now, I check as does everyone else.

The river card: 8d. No royal straight flush for me. Someone bets and I fold.

Hand 65 - I get 8d, Ad in a middle position. I decide to call.

The flop 5c, Kc, Kh. Someone bets and I fold.

Hand 68 The big blind again. I get 8s, Js and check it to the flop. Only two others are with me.

Flop: 8h, Qh, Ac. Pair of Eights with a possible straight. It gets checked around.

4th Street: Th. Could I catch the straight on the river? The guy I told you about earlier was in it and bets. I'm not buying it! I call the other folds. It's down to me and Mr. I Hate Money Here Have It.

The river card: 9c. I have my 8-Q straight. I bet. Mr. Take My Money Please raises! I think for a second. If he has a K and J, he beats me. But I don't think he does. I take a chance and I call.

It pays off. I win the $7 pot. He did have a straight though, but it was 6-T, so my straight beat his)

Hand 70 - I get dealt Ks, Ah when I have the button. I call. 7 others stay in as well.

Flop: 2d, 5s, Td. It gets checked all around

Next card: 6d. Once again, checked all around.

River: Kc. Someone bets, and everyone starts folding. Don't think anyone could have much, and since I have the Ace card to beat any other pair of Kings, I take a chance and call. 1 other person calls.

I lose. Someone (the one who betted) wins on Sixes and Fives. Wonder why he didn't bet after getting the 2nd 6 off 4th street?

Hand 75 Big Blind. I am dealt Kh, 9h. Someone raises and I call with 3 others.

Flop: Qd, 6c, 3s. I check, someone bets, I fold.

(to be continued)

[RPI-Fan]

Only read the first few hands so far, BUT...

Your play on Hand #7 is correct, IMO. You had to put the flop raiser on a King-low kicker, and in first position couldn't raise. Nothing wrong with what you did there.

Hand 11: Depending on how much was in the pot after the turn, I'd have folded. Rather, a proper play would be to raise post-flop IMO - you can't put anyone on a 4 (for two reasons... people generally wouldn't have called ANY hand preflop that has a 4 in it and 2) there's only one 4 left in the 47 unknown cards... that combined with the above reason can let you assume know one has a 4 (or at least give you the odds to put them off a 4)).

When the 9 comes with a bet, you have to fold, unless you're getting good odds. You have a 11/46 chance of hitting one of your outs (Any spade, any ace, any king). Round that down to 4:1, and you need to be earning a pot of AT LEAST $5.00 to justify a call there. If you are getting that money in the pot, then it is the correct long run play to call.

More to come later...

P.S.: This is all my unprofessional opinion, based on some limited (no pun intended) poker reading, and more extensive home game playing (with some strong players, some weak players).

~rpi-fan

[sabotai]

"Round that down to 4:1, and you need to be earning a pot of AT LEAST $5.00 to justify a call there. If you are getting that money in the pot, then it is the correct long run play to call."

I went back to the hand and added up the pot to that point. Counting the $1 that was bet after the 9 was dealt, there was $8 in the pot. So I guess that means I played that hand correct after the flop (even though I probably shouldn't have been there post flop)

"P.S.: This is all my unprofessional opinion, based on some limited (no pun intended) poker reading, and more extensive home game playing (with some strong players, some weak players)."

NP. This makes you much more experienced than me. Growing up in my house, 500 Rummy was the card game of choice, so I still have limited experience with Poker.

[TredWel]

Now it's my turn to jack someone else's poker thread for a change. I'll gladly offer my two 25 cent chips in regards to your questions.

Hand #7: I think the play on the flop and the turn is correct, you have to worry about a king out there. But, when everyone checks the turn, that's a little flag there. When the blank falls on the river, I would have thrown another bet out there. I just can't see someone bet their king on the flop and then stop on the turn.

Hand #11: When there is a bet on the nine ather the flop checked, you're no longer playing for the flush, as the presumed fours full of nines beats you. You have seven outs (Ace or King for a higher full house, and the last four for quads and Ace kicker), and I don't think you were getting the odds necessary there, but I could be wrong.

Hand #12: I think I would have played it the same way. You've got to give credit to the hand that hit the straight on the turn, just making a disciplined call. If he raised, he probably would have scared you and others out of the hand.

Hand #16: I think that he bet then to try and scare off flush draws. He probably also has the best hand right now, and it can't hurt to put more money into the pot. In order to have a better two pair, a person would have called with K-7 or worse. It's a fine play in my estimation.

It looks like you were playing better than par (albeit not difficult at this level), but you got a lot of drawing hands that didn't and unfriendly boards in your blinds. If you look back at my poker thread, you'll notice that my one big losing session was populated with hands like that.

[RPI-Fan]

Hand 12: That's a tricky one, and what I might have done actually is re-raise pre-flop to really put your guy on a hand. If he raises back I'd put him on a high pair, and perhaps lay it down. If he just calls, he's probably on a hand like yours (KQ, AJ, AQ, etc.).

You were correct in betting into the flop. When the T comes out, though, I'd check, and see what the action looks like. There's too many draws (which would have matched big preflop raises) which fit the likely drawing hands. It's easy to say in retrospect, but I'd lay 'em down at that point.

Hand 16: His play was correct, IMO. He can't be put on K4 or K3 (too weak to play preflop), and can't be put on a flush draw either. There weren't many potential hands, at least at that point, that could beat his two pair. That's a very, very tough read, particularly at an online table, so there's not much you could have done.

I'd probably have put him on a straight draw (56, A2, A5 - most likely the former), and called his bet. But that would have been wrong. I think this is just one of those times where you're trapped in a flop, and can't do anything about it (because of the weak play of some idiot calling preflop with 43x).

Hand 25: Yea' - you shouldn't have been in that pot, ESPECIALLY in 1st position. Even if you do hit a pair, or your flush draw, you still probably don't have the best hand, or even draw. It's a sucker hand (you're going to get trapped), and you should NEVER play it from early position.

Hand 26: Good laydown - since you were certain that someone had their straight, the one you hit might not even be the nuts. That means the 7 doesn't do you any good. Thus you're drawing to an inside straight, essentially, and not getting the correct odds to play the hand. Well done (though I might have raised preflop).

Hand 36: I'd try to note who exactly raised and when. If the same guy raised pre-and-post-flop, you can definitely put him on a pocket pair. Otherwise, he's on a drawing hand (much like yours), and someone else either hit or drew to a straight (more likely he was drawing for it...). If there were two different raisers, I'd call, since you have 8 outs (plus the runner flush), but if it was the same guy, you probably only have 4 outs (plus the runner flush), and thus, I'd fold.

Hand 37: Should've laid down before the flop. Here's my rule of thumb when on the small blind: would I ever consider calling a full bet with my hand? If so, then it's probably Ok to complete the blind. Otherwise (as should have been your case), I fold since there's no way I'd ever play T6x.

Hand 45: Should NOT have played preflop (particularly with a raise), but once you did you made the right play. You had to put someone on a flush, and thus made the correct laydown.

More later...

[RPI-Fan]

Re: Hand 12...

I lapsed mentally, and didn't think about what I was saying. Tred is right - the full house you're playing to beat leaves you with 7 outs (The lone 4, and 3 A/K's)... Thus you're at 7/46 odds. Round down to 6:1, and you need $6 in the pot to call. Still looks like the right play to me, based on what you replied with.

[sabotai]

Hand 77 - With the button, I am dealt Ts, Ad and I call.

The flop: 9h, Qc, 3s. Someone bets and I fold. I think i just got bored and tested my luck. *shrugs*

Hand 82 - 7d, 6d in 1st position. I decide to call.

Flop: 2d, Ts, Kc. Someone bets, I fold.

Hand 83 - Big Blind here. I get dealt 5h, As and check it to the flop.

The flop: 4h, 4s, Js. Someone bets and I fold.

Hand 86 - I get dealt 6d, Td and call.

Flop: 8c, 2s, 6s. Pair of Sixes with Ten Kicker. Not the best. But when the bet gets to me, I call it.

Next card: 9h. Need the seven for a straight. Someone bets and I decide to walk.

Hand 88 - I get As, Kd in a middle position. I call it, someone raises and I decide to call it again.

The Flop: 9s, 2c, 8h. Someone lays down a bet and I fold.

Hand 93 - .....Hand 93....will forever be burned into my memory. This is pretty much the hand that broke me in this sitting.

I am dealt 9d, Kd. In the small blind and having been raised, I call the $0.75.

Flop: Qh, Ts, 5c. I'm just one card away from the straight. Still, I check it. Someone bets and I call.

The next card: Js. I've hit my straight. I start off by placing a bet. Someone calls and the next person raises. I call. The guy next to me (who just called) now decides he's going to raise. The raiser raises again....the heart is pounding now. I take a while to think about it. I decide to call. The guy next to me calls and we go to the river.

River card: 5s. I check...the guy next to me bets, the raiser raises. I call. The guy next to me calls. I've placed $7.50 into the pot. And I lost it all. Out of the 3 of us, I had the worst hand.

I had a straight 9-K. For the past many hands, people had been winning with pairs and 2 pair. I pushed hard cause I wanted this pot.

The guy next to me had a T-A straight. He beat me.

But the 3rd guy, the guy who raised twice off 4th street had a Full House. Fives full of Queens. But he didn't get his third Five until the river card. Why would he raise twice after the 4th card when he only had 2 pair and the straight possibility is staring him in the face? After the flop when he got his 2 pair, he only called. After the J was dealt, he raises twice. I can understand raising once to scare off people looking for a straight. But hacing to raise twice and being raised yourself should clue you that the straight had been gotten. Maybe I'm just a passive player.

(Maybe I'm pissed I didn't get that $23.50 pot...yeah, that's it)

A few more hands of just either folding or seeing the flop and folding and I'm out of that table. That Hand 93....damn. I don't know what to make of that.

[sabotai]

"Hand 36... but if it was the same guy, you probably only have 4 outs (plus the runner flush), and thus, I'd fold."

It was the same guy.

[sabotai]

First Night - Round 2

In an attempt to gain some of my lost money back (I stopped at $21 in the hole), I started playing again after about an hour.

Hand 1 - In the Big Blind, I am dealt Qh, Qd. Finally a pair. I check it to the flop.

Flop: 3c, 5c, 8d. I check, someone bets, I call with 2 others.

The next card: 9s. Someone could have a straight. I check. Someone bets and a little flag raises. Someone else calls and someone folds. I think for a second and decide to call.

The river: 5h. I check. Somone (the same guy) bets. Someone calls and I sit and think...and think....and call.

I win with Queens and Fives. The guy who betted was either stupid or bluffing the straight. And it almost worked. He ended up having just the pair of Fives on the board, (He needed to the 7 for a straight) The third guy that remained had Tens and Fives.

Hand 2 - I get dealt Ts, 9h on the small blind. I call the rest of it.

Flop: 3d, 9d, 3s. Nines and Threes with a Ten kicker. I check. Someone bets and I call with someone else.

Next card: 9s. Full house, Nines full of Threes. I lay down a bet. One person calls, the other raises....thoughts of Hand 93 come into my mind. I call as does the 3rd guy.

The river: Kc. A little scared of that raise, I decide to just start off with a check. The raiser now bets. I call and the 3rd guy folds.

Hey, we learn to share. We both had Nines full of Threes. We split the $11.50 pot.

A bunch of folds later and I leave the table before the blind gets to me again.

And that does it for my first night of poker. In the end, I am still $12.25 in the hole overall. But at least that's up from $21 down.

[sabotai]

Another day at the tables. The PartyPoker server must have died because it kicked me off and I can't reestablish connection.

It was a so-so day. Nothing really exciting happened. I made some mistakes that I knew I shouldn't have, but I played several hands well, IMO. In the end, when the server booted me, I was up a whole quater.

Just as I wrote this, I got back in...to be continued.

[sabotai]

I ended up stopping $4.75 in the hole. I basically got nothing except for one hand.

I had QQ in my hand, and crap flopped. Both times I betted (pre flop and after the flop) to scare off anyone who might try to stick around and grab a lucky draw.

Well it didn't work. On the 4th card, a K drew giving someone a pair of kings. I still betted and called and raises. As you can see, I lost.

The person who had kings wasn't scared off by my bets and raises when they had nothing in their hand. Sometimes I really hate these cheap tables.

I did get a bonus $10 from PartyPoker from when I deposited $50 the other night. So, basically instead of $17 in the hole overall, I'm just $7 in the hole.

I do take comfort in seeing people flush $50 or $60 down the drain in the time it takes me to only lose about $4 or so. I also take comfot in knowing they have probably been playing longer than me and in a couple of weeks, hopefully sooner, I'll be the one taking it from them.

[sabotai]

Ugh, I'm just not good at this right now. I went down $9 quickly in a game tonight. So that makes it $16 overall in the hole. I'm leaving to go out in a few minutes, so I'll make this quick.

Who calls preflop in a middle position with a 2 and a 4? The guy who took a few bucks off me when he made his straight on the river card, that's who.

I'll post some accounts of hands played when I get back tonight.

[RPI-Fan]

FTR, at the cheap tables, I figure that some people actually use the following system to determine whether to call preflop...

1) ANY suited cards
2) ANY connected cards
3) ANY ONE face card

And thus the awful beats...

[sabotai]

RPI, the thing that has bugged me thus far is that these are the same people who lose $50 in a half hour, yet whenever I got something, they lucky and beat me...every damn time. (I know in the end, the odds will win out and I'll end up ahead. It's just frustrating sometimes. )

[thealmighty]

Every time I start to get loose and impatient, a guy I play with and I have a running joke..."Patience, Grasshopper."

(it is for old people, from tv's Kung Fu show.)

[sabotai]

I finally get away from SWG to play some poker.

Hand 1 : I start off on the BB. I get dealt 7s, 8s and 5 people including the SB calls. I check.

The flop is 9c, 4d, 2h . No chance of a flush and little chance of the straight. I check as does everyone else. 4th street comes up 8h. I have a pair of 8's but with a bad kicker. When the betting is started off with a bet, I decide to just fold.

Hand 2 : On the SB now, I get Jd, 7d. 4 people call and I throw in my other half.

The flop is 2d, 6h, Kd. Good chance at a flush now. I start off betting 5 people call and 1 folds. 4th street is Tc. I still have 4-1 odds of hitting my flush, so I bet. 3 people call and 2 fold. The river is a bummer, a Kc. I check, someone bets and since I have nothing, I fold.

Hand 7 : In middle position I get dealt Jh, Ks. I call it. Someone raises. I think about it, and I decide to call the raise. 4 others call it as well.

The flop comes up 4c, 8c, 6h. (Is this a good flop for me?). It gets checked all around. I'm thinking that no one has a 4, 6 or 8 otherwise they would have betted considering how loose 0.5/1 tables are. So I rule out any pair or three of a kind. Also, no one has a 5 or 7, or they surely would have betted. Most likey, they would have betted with a draw flush as well. Since it gets checked around, I'm confident that this flopped helped no one at all.

4th street is Js. I now have a pair of J's with a K kicker. The only hand I fear now is an AJ, which I think is the only one that can beat me. It gets checked to me and I start off betting to raise the pot and to scare off anyone trying to hit a straight on the river and anyone who did decide to check a draw flush. 3 people call and 2 fold.

River is Jc. Interesting as it does complete the flush. It's checked to me. I bet. Now, the pre-flop raiser raises. Was she trying for the flush? Does she have an AJ? I take into consideration that she is one of those "Take my money please!" people. I'm thinking she has something, but not a great hand. I'm cautious though, and decide to just call her raise. 1 other calls as well.

When the raiser turns over pocket rockets, I give a hugh sigh of releif. My 3 J's take the $14.75 pot.

Hand 11 : On the BB now. I get dealt 9h, 9d. 6 people call including the SB. I check.

The flop is 7c, Jc, Ad. All someone needs is a J or A to beat my pair now. Considering 6 others are still in, that possibility is high. I check. Someone bets and then someone else raises. I decide to get out of there.

This hand REALLY annoyed me. Not only did another 9 get dealt on 4th street, 3 nines would have won the pot. The raiser folded and someone won with a pair of J's.

Did I play this hand right? I think I did, but I'm a peeved about losing a pot I would have won.

Hand 12 : On the SB I get dealt Qd, Kh. 3 people call and I throw in my other half. The BB checks.

The flop is 7d, Ks, Kc and I'm wetting myself. In my excitement, I know I played this too tough. I started off betting and two people called. Thinking back, I probably should have tried a check raise since I was starting off the action.

4th street is 4c and I start off betting again. I did this to try to scare off anyone trying to hit a flush on the river. Perhaps I did accomplish this.

The river is 9c which would have completed a flush. I try not to worry about the flush, thinking I surely would have scared them off with my post-flop bet and my 4th street bet. There's only 1 person left. I start off betting and he calls. I win the $7.50 pot as he only had the pair of K's that was on the board (he had an A kicker).

I end up playing until the BB gets to me again and I decide to stop playing. Not wanting to risk the money I have won (yes, I do see the cup as half empty. )

Besides, I left the table because in that last few hands before I left the table was getting very pre-flop betting happy and I had a feelign that I would have lost my blinds no matter what I was dealt (unless I got AA or KK, but I wasn't taking the chance).

Here are two hands that I folded pre-flop, and would like to know if any of you would have played them.

Pre-flop fold #1 : I was on the button and was dealt a Js, Tc. The action was raised, which made me fold. Would any of you have called with this in late position?

Pre-flop fold #2 : I had 3d, 3h in late position. I folded it (there was no raise). It just got me wondering. When do I call or call a raise with a pair and how high should that pair be? Do you ever call with a low pair?

I finished the day up $12.25 in my best showing yet. Hopefully, the trend will continue.

Overall, however, I'm still at -$3.75. But since I was at -$21 after my first day, I'm slowly coming back.

Feedback on any of my hands is appriciated. I want to know if I'm playing correctly or if I'm playing lucky. The last thing I want to to get used to playing a certain way only to find out it's the wrong way and not be able to stop.

[RPI-Fan]

The pair of nines was the correct play - you had exactly two outs in the deck - IOW 24-1 odds.

33 is something I'd call with in late position with no raise, but that's just a personal thing since I hit quad 3's on the flop once. Seriously, though, I think it's worth a call, since you'll usually have the best hand if it hits. That can't necessarily be said about two high cards.

JTx with a raise is appropriate to fold, IMO. The only outs you have are the straight draw, or two pair on the flop. With KQx you can at least count a top pair as on out.

~rpi-fan

[sabotai]

What about 3's in middle and first positions?

Also, generally speaking, how high should a pair be to play it in middle and first positions? Like, should I play only 8's and higher in mid positions? Higher than 8's? etc.

[Radii]

If you have pocket pairs, you have 7 1/2 to 1 odds to flop trips. If you don't flop trips or an open ended straight draw there's almost no way you call any bet on the flop. I think the idea is that if you *know* you can see the flop for one bet it's generally worth it in a low limit game where there will be a ton of callers.

The problem is that from early/middle position the chance of a raise behind you is generally too good, and you probably don't want to pay two bets for that 7 1/2 to 1 shot. I think that's the reason for only playing it from late position. If you're at a very passive table where there are almost never any pre-flop raises, then you are probably safe calling a pair of 3s from early or middle position.

[TredWel]

Personally speaking, when it comes to pocket pairs, I'll play nines and up anywhere, eights through sixes in late position only, and smaller pairs only in late position with a lot of callers.

Of course, if the game is extremely passive and lose, you can relax those guidlines a bit.

[sabotai]

I decided to get in a little poker tonight.

Hand 1 - On the BB, I get dealt 9d, Qh. 3 limpers and the SB call and I see the flop for free.

Qs, 2s, 2d. I got my pair, but does someone have trips 2's? Worse yet, a Q2? I try to scare off anyone trying to hit the spade flush but starting off with a bet. 3 call and 1 fold.

8c comes on 4th street. I don't think this helps anyone. I start off with a bet again. 2 call and 1 fold.

3c comes on the river. No flush for anyone. If someone does have trips 2's, trips Q's or the full house, they played discipline enough to not raise any of my bets. I start off betting. 1 call and 1 fold.

I win the $9 pot on my pair of Q's. The caller had nothing. The pair of 2's that was on the board. He did hold an ace, so I guess he thought he might beat me with his A kicker...he also held 2 spades, so he was hoping for the flush to land. Tough luck, buddy.

Hand 2 - Qs, Ts on the small blind. There's a raise and I call it.

6s, 7h, Kc comes on the flop. There's a bet and I get out of there.

Hand 10 - I get dealt Js, Jh and start off the action by calling the 0.50 (should I have started with a raise?) Well, the BB decides to raise anyway. I call it. 5 others call as well.

Th, 9h, 5c is the flop. Ick. I check as does everyone else.

2c on 4th street. Someone bets and I fold.

Hand 11 - On the BB I get Js, Qc. I check with 4 limpers and the SB in it.

Jd, 4h, Ks comes on the flop. Pair of J's, but I don't like that king in there. Someone i sbound to have one. I start off with a bet anyway (was that a good move?) and everyone calls it.

Ad comes next. Now I'm certain someone has my pair beat. I check, someone bets, I fold.

Hand 12 - On the SB I get Kd, 2c. I want to see the flop so I chuck in the extra quarter.

7s, 7h, Tc on the flop. Everyone checks.

Ts on 4th street and everyone checks again. No one has the full house?

The river is Qc. I check. Someone puts a bet down, but I'm sure it was because they thought that everyone else still had nothing and were just trying to steal the pot. Even so, with the pot at just a tiny $4, it's not worth the $1 to find out. I fold.


After the 18th hand, I leave the table. Not bad. Just wanted to get in about a half hour so I keep my mind sharp on poker. Don't want to go too long without playing.

Tonight: +$2.50
Overall: -$1.25

[Radii]

I definitely would have raised the jacks. I also would have bet them on the flop and the turn with no overcards. There was no straight or flush possible yet, although it is possible people were drawing towards them. You've got to make people pay for those draws, and if you lose to someone dumb enough to play T5 or something for two pair, oh well (not likely thought with no one betting)

[RPI-Fan]

I would _not_ have raised the jacks preflop, just called, and postflop would have raised.

~rpi-fan

[Malificent]

I definitely would've raised the jacks pre-flop. If you hit the big hand, you want the pot to be big enough to be worth it. If you drive a few people out pre-flop, all the better - that way they won't luck into a flop that beats you.

Pair of Jacks is one of the best hands you can get in limit play, and I probably would've been betting them aggressively with a T-9-5 flop, because you're guaranteed to have top pair. T-9 could be two pair from someone, but they're likely to raise you if they have that off the flop. If you bet it aggressively, then you may drive someone out that could've beat you with the turn card.

I probably would've stayed in when the guy bet on a 2. But my philosophy is that you have to bet the strong hands to make up for all the folding of weak hands.

[Bee]

Hand 10. Definitely would have raised the Jacks. I would have probably raised the bet after the flop to scare off people trying to draw something outta nothing.

I think the play on Hand 11 is harder to say because it depends on how the table is running. I'd have most likely checked with the Jacks.

[Airhog]

Sabotai: It seems the skill you need to work on the most is reading the other people at the table and adjusting your play.

[sabotai]

"Sabotai: It seems the skill you need to work on the most is reading the other people at the table and adjusting your play."

Yeah, and working on that skill is near impossible at these tables.

I'm trying to basically follow what David Sklansky says in his book "Hold 'Em Poker"

"Solid strategic play of good cards remains the most important aspect of the game. Furthermore, it is important to understand that reading techniques work best against fair-to-good players. Experts are tougher, and live ones (suckers) are toucher still. However, "live ones" will give their money away to you if you just play solid cards."

[sabotai]

Just when I thought I was getting the hang of it.

Well, to start off, I started playing th eother night, but before I could do anything, I had to leave, and ended up $5 down overall.

I'm not going to post any hands anymore, unless I have a specific question. In most cases, I know exactly what I'm doing wrong, but I don't realize until it's too late. I have to stop myself from playing loose when I first sit down at a table. I'm usually a good $3 or $4 in the hole before I get started.

So new rule. Unless I have a high pair (JJ, QQ, KK, AA), I am going to fold every hand I have for the first pass of the blinds. Hopefully, this will keep me from calling questionable hands pre-flop. Get me into rhythm, so to speak.

I'm now down a total of $14. I started off way too loose, called for way too long and was $6.50 down pretty quickly. Then the cards just did not show up and didn't see the flop again. I left after getting close to the $10 limit because of lost blinds.

I also need to start playing more. I accept that I will probably lose all $50 of my initial investment. This is the first time I'm seriously playing poker. Gin, Pinochle and Hearts were the games I played most. So poker really is pretty new to me. So I'm not really bummed about losing today.

It's just that I am (was, really) so good at Gin, Pinochle and Hearts that losing at cards is a new experience for me.

[QuikSand]

sabotai,

I always find that I remember poker advice better when I understand why the advice is being offered. (Applies outside poker, too) So here's the general thinking on the pair of jacks pre-flop, as best I can articulate it:

You are strong now - very strong, even in early position. You likely have the top hand right now, and will be a solid pick to win the hand. So, as Malificent says above - you want to boost that pot, because it's fairly likely to be yours.

Second, the types of hands that can hurt you in the end are draw hands - people holding flush and straight draws that could work out to improve later. By raising here, you whittle down many of these hands - making it too pricey for them to stick around "just to see the flop."

Most poker advisors will resolutely suggest that you RAISE QQ and JJ for these reasons. You're not as strong as AA or KK, but it's important to try to winnow down your opposition who might have been willing to limp in with a marginal draw hand.


Hope that helps - a bit redundant with what has already been written, but I thought the elucidation might be helpful. (It has been for me, when I've read this sort oof thing before)

[sabotai]

Yeah, thanks to the advise given I now know that JJ and higher are strong hands (which is why I put the cut off there for my "no play first pass" rule above.)

The problem with the poor tables is that it's hard to scare away the flush and straight draws because they'll just call anyway.

And keep the advise coming. The more people who say the same thing the more I know it's the right way to play.

(Thinks of going back to playing Pinochle..... )

[sabotai]

I just had my worst hour of poker to date. It was insane.

Imagine getting hand after hand of AK, KK, QJ, AQ, JJ, and always getting total crap on the flop. And in the event that I was able to take my hand to the end, someone always had my hand beat by a card.

I won a total of 2 pots. One a moderate size, one pot was very small. By the odds, I should have won so many more. But the cards just didn't turn.

I now have $18.50 in my account. I said before I expected to lose it all as I learned the game, but damn I didn't expect to lose it that fast. Like Worm says in Rounders, "I caught streak of cards you read about." Or something to that effect. That's how I feel right now.

[sabotai]

I didn't want to go down like that. I needed revenge. I decided I was either going to go to sleep having lost all $50 of my initial investment, or I was going to win it back. I now have $30.75 in my acount, winning $12.75 in about a half hour.

So, the day wasn't a total lost. When I woke up today, I had $45 in my account, so I'm not happy about losing $14.25 today, but it's better than losing $27, and certainly better than losing all $45.

I did notice in my 2 am - 2:30 am session, I played a lot more disciplined. As long as I do that, I'll be fine. I just have a hard time getting into rhythm. And I guess I just have to accept that there will be times when I have the shittiest luck (like earlier)

[RPI-Fan]

When the straight and flush draws call, in the long run, it's a good thing. It's hard to see that in your head, but in the long run you'll be better off losing more pots, but winning the ones you do for much, much more money (which is what happens when the draws call).

~rpi-fan

[sabotai]

RPI,

Yeah...you're right. But I don't have the bankroll to let the odds play out if they go against me.

[sabotai]

Update:

Played a few days ago, pulled in a few bucks to put me at $34

Played for an hour and a half tonight. Saw the poker show on ESPN and figured 1) I want to play now, 2) So will a lot of people who suck.

I may suck...but let's just continue.

I played at 1 table for about 20 minutes. Went 5 bucks over and then had to leave the computer for a bit. This put me at $39.

When I got back, first hand gave be 3 K's, but I lost to a full house. Very next hand, I win a pot on Qs and A's which put me right back at $25 at the table (what I joined the table with).

I told myself if I wasn't at $30 when the clock struck midnight, I would stop ($30 at the table would put me +$10 for the night).
On the midnight hand (11:59 on the clock), I won a sizable pot that put me at $34 overall. I continue to play.

I lose a couple of blinds when I win a moderate pot. Puts me at $35. I lose another round of blinds (plus a call that I folded on the flop) and end up leaving the table with $33.75 (folding the small blind hand I was dealt). So I was +$8.75 at the table. Added to the $5 I won at the other table, I had a $13.75 night. Cool.

This puts me at $47.75 total. Only -$2.25 overall. Pretty sweet considering a few sessions ago I was at $18 and looking at losing all my initial $50 investment. I hope my play continues to be good.

[sabotai]

Another hour of poker today. Still at the 0.5/1 tables, of course.

On hand 4 I won a sizable pot on 3 ladies. The pot was $13.50, netted me $10 and put me at $34.

My next pot I wouldn't have taken all the way had I not been last to bet. I was dealt a pair of 8's. Ts, 6s, 3c on the flop. Everyone checks to me. So I bet 50 cents, 2 people fold. The turn is a 9c, and again, it gets checked to me. I sit and think. No one has the straight, or they would have betted. I still don't think anyone has anything. Not wanting to give out a free card, I bet. 1 person folds and that leaves 3 plus me.

4 people are still in it and no one has anything? A 4h comes. Helps no one. It gets checked to me again. I always think the worse is about to happen, so instead of losing another buck, I just check. I win the pot.

Now here's a testiment to how stupid some of these players are. I'm betting the entire way through. Here's what they kept calling. Dipshit #1) Had a pair of 3's on the flop. Dipshit #2) A pair of 4's he got on the river. Dipshit #3) King high card.

Thanks for your money, guys.

The pot was $9.50 (net $7.50). This put me at $41.50.

I then went on a string of bad luck cards and flops. Most of my preflop cards sucked, costing me several blinds. On my last hand before I decided to call it quits, I got a pari of K's with an Ace kicker (I had AK). The other two cards were 8 and 6. I do my best to bet off the straight draws. Then a 9 comes on the turn....uh oh.....The river is a 7. Bingo. I check. Someone bets. Someone raises. I have to fold.

I end up leaving the table with $33. Still that's +$8 for the hour and it places me at $55.75 total, +$5.75 overall. I end play up from my initial investment for the first time since starting.

[sabotai]

Another day, another hour at the table.

Didn't get the card today. Not counting BB checks, I saw the flop 2 or 3 times. Won 1 small pot ($5). Ended the hour at -$2.50.

Total: $53.25
Overall +/- : +$3.25

[sabotai]

Played a short session tonight. Would have played longer but I wanted to make sure I could eat dinner before the Friday Night poker.

I left the table up $6.50 after only 18 hands.

Overall +/- : +$9.75

There's going to be a $15,000 Freeroll tournament on the 16th. Registration ends on the 15th. 2000 raked hands have to be played, so I'm going to try like hell to make it. That's about 150 raked hands per day. That's a lot of raked hands. Looks like the next two weekends I'll be playing a LOT of poker.

[sabotai]

Forget the freeroll. Didn't get any poker in during the weekend because of social life. Someones actually having a life can be detrimental.

I tried playing two tables at once tonight...eh, just couldn't do it. Once I become a lot more automatic with my preflop decisions, maybe I'll try again. Thought playing 2 tables at once might help me get back into the freeroll, but no. Can't do it. I panic quickly when I have to make quick decisions. That happened already when the clock was ticking on two good preflop hands.

Besides, I see it is the 4th and 77 people have already entered the tourney. 4 days! People have 2000 hands in 4 days! Like I had a chance.

Still playing. Will give update later.

[sabotai]

After an hour, I'm +$4 for the night. I was playing and then I got a message saying my computer would shut down in 60 seconds because something closed unexpectedly...whatever...friggin windows.

Back to the tables!

[sabotai]

Struck by n00bie curse. Lost a couple of showdowns with people who had absolutly no business calling their hands to the river, yet did anyway and hit their hand. Just my luck...

I'm down about $5 for the night now. Party Poker then decided to crap out. (GET BETTER SERVERS!). Trying to get back in for the last 5 minutes. No luck.

[sabotai]

Tired of trying to reconnect. Not in a good mood after a few of those bs hands.

Tonight: -$5
Overall: +$4.75

[sabotai]

I guess it comes in waves...

Once again, all I get is total shit for an hour. The hands that I am able to play, were JTs and JJ. Played both, lost both. Every other hand I was dealt was just horrible.

Tonight: -$12.75
Total: -$7.50

[sabotai]

Played for another 1 1/2 hours tonight. Had lots of ups and downs and frankly, I'm exhausted.

First I go up a couple of bucks. I move to a new table as the one I'm at becomes bare. I then lose some. Get into negative numbers. I get back to even with trip Q's. No one limped. Only the blinds and I was able to string one of the blinds til the river.

I get back to even overall. I again move to a new table as the one I'm at gets bare. I go down to -$9 overall. Had a couple of hands that were good, just got beat. Well, 1 hand I know I misplayed. The other the guy got lucky and hit his flush on the river.

At the end of the night, when I was even for the session, I land a nice sized pot (for the 0.5/1 tables) on a full house, nines full of aces. I was confident that my trip nines were good enough to win (had pocket nines), but the A on the river closed the deal. That pot sent me back into the positive overall.

Session: +$12.25
Overall: +$4.75

[SunDancer]

Is this over?

[sabotai]

That's weird...I was just looking for this thread to update it.

I didn't play for a couple of weeks. I was doing other things.

I've played a coupld of times over the past few days, and my rustiness has shown.

I'm back down under my $50 initial investment.

The first day back was fine, but I COMPLETELY miss played a hand and it cost me nearly $10. I was up $15 at the time. By the time I walked away for the night, I was only up about a $1.

Today, however, was horrendous. I had a hand won easily, but the guy gets his straight on the turn and river cards...that hand cost me nearly $10.

I decided to try my luck at NL poker, but went down $4 after about a half hour. Then I tried out a single-table tournment. Again, I lost 2 big hands because of the river card. I still managed to finish 3rd, however, to give me a +$4, basically getting back the money I lost at the NL table.

At the moment, I'm at -$12.75.

I've basically reconized my biggest weakness is that I can't read other hands when I have a good to great hand myself. I think the problem is I can, but I don't listen to myself and I go ahead anyway since it's the "cheap tables" and they play when they shouldn't....I have to stop doing that.

[sabotai]

Played for about another hour tonight. Lost some change by having to switch tables a few times because they kept dying, but I ended up about +$3 for the hour.

Overall: -$9.25

I liked playing in that single table torunement and may play another tourney or two tomorrow afternoon. I think tournament play suits my style more than ring games. Eventually I'll try my hand at one of those $10 multi-table tournaments whenever I have a day off.

[sabotai]

I played in a NL single table tourney. I finished 6th. 1 hand I folded and should not have early. 2 times I went all in and the player who went all in with me (both times I had more) won because they caught the card they needed on the river. The second time put me out for good.

I then played a limit single table tourney. I got crap for the longest time and ended up down to about 190 total chips. I then got a few good hands and climbed my way back up. I eventually got enough to help 'muslce' out 5th and 4th place. I won a few small pots which kept me in and knocked out 3rd place. I got into a 1-on-1 with a guy who had a good 4000 more chips than me. I kept clawing and clawing but everytime I got close, he would win.

It eventually came down to a hand. I had a pretty good diea that he had 4 three's. But at the same time I know that he had tried to push me out when he had nothing (which backfired a few times). I had a full house, 3's full of Q's, so I went for it. He had the 4 three's. Considering his amount over me at the time (I had about 2000, he had a lot more), I pretty much figured I didn't have much a chance. So I'm happy. A 2nd place finish when at one point I was down to 190 is fine with me. A $15 payout gives me +$9 for the tourney. A -$6 for the other one gives me a +$3 for the night.

Overall: -$6.25

I am loving the tourneys. They're so much more exciting and you can punish bad play more, imo.

[sabotai]

I played two more tourneys.

The first one I went out 6th. I simply did not get any hands and eventually the blinds knocked me down to the point where I had to just close my eyes and go for it all with a pair of Jacks and lost.
(-$6)

The second one was another where I had to climb out of a gutter. Not as bad. With 7 players left, I had 300 and change. I picked myself back up and managed to finish 3rd. (+$4)

Overall: -$8.25

I think I have a problem where I play too tight early on. Once I loosen up a bit to get myself out of a hole, I get back in it. But then again, I got crap in both tournaments. I just got lucky in the 2nd tourney to get back in it when I was dealt KK.

[sabotai]

Another tourney (NL), another 3rd place finish. +$4 for the afternoon. Overall: -$4.25