On Topic: Changing positions vs. playing out of position

SplitPersonality1 · 04-02-2004, 04:38 PM

Has anyone done a study on this in FOF2K4? I checked the SkyDog sticky area and did not see anything.

My question is this. If you have a player that is the second best on your team, and should be starting, is it better to:

1) play him out of position somewhere else, or
2) make the actual change to his position

The third option is to let him ride the pine, but I don't want to do that.
Just curious to what you folks have noticed.

Maple Leafs · 04-02-2004, 04:50 PM

I can't provide any specific data, but I don't think I've ever switched a guy's position. I always just play him out of position, and don't seem to notice any serious performance hit.

I guess in theory the way this should be handled would be to have the initial effect be exactly the same, but to have the play who is officially switched eventually "grow into" the new position.

QuikSand · 04-02-2004, 04:57 PM

I don't think there exists any data on this - it has been brought up several times, and I have yet to see (or, admittedly, to provide) any follow up.

My rule of thumb, which seems to work (without any grounding for that, really) is this:

-If the player is in his first or second year and is still mostly potential, and if the scout says he will make the switch easily (with a very high % of skills retained) then I will make the permanent switch

-Otherwise (and that's most cases) I will just play him out of position. I generally have had difficulty seeing any drop-off in results when playing players this way.

SplitPersonality1 · 04-02-2004, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I guess in theory the way this should be handled would be to have the initial effect be exactly the same, but to have the play who is officially switched eventually "grow into" the new position.

That makes some sense. This will be a temporary change for me since the primary player in question probably only has one or two more years left in him. Then the younger guy can go back into his natural spot.

Thanks guys.

Passacaglia · 04-02-2004, 05:04 PM

Baxter to RB, and Joppru to FB?

Big changes like that, I'd play them out of position, and see what happens.

Willig at RT? I'd look at what it tells me, and see what he'll look like there. If it's not good, I wouldn't bother.

Buckley at DE? Again, I'd switch him and see what it says.

My thinking is to play him out of position if I see it as temporary, and switch him if I want it to last for the whole season. Of course that's probably a pretty obvious statement.

Passacaglia · 04-02-2004, 05:05 PM

Now that I've read your post, if you're talking about a couple years, I'd still be wary of switching his position -- if you're saying you do intend to switch him back. Not for his present value, but his future -- my guess is he'll take a big hit when you switch him back.

Buzzbee · 04-02-2004, 05:09 PM

Split - There was a thread early after FOF2k4 was released in which this was discussed. You can probably do a search on "position change" or something like it and you will find it. There was a post by Jim regarding position changes. If I remember, it was talking about switching Offensive Linemen around, and Jim's comment basically said that there really isn't a difference in switching a LG to a RG, or RG to RT, but that the one area where it made a difference was at LT, since it is a more specialized position (guarding the QB from a blind side pass rush).

In regard to switching a MLB to WILB/SILB or even to WLB to SLB, I don't think there is much difference at all. Same for SE to FL or FS to SS. Where it would make a difference is if you were moving from one postion to a significantly different position. For example switching from SS to SLB would be fairly significant and would see ratings drops. Likewise for TE to FB.

I tend to follow whay QuikSand outlined above. I'm more willing to switch a younger player since they don't have much Current skill to lose, if the Potential is projected to remain close to what it is pre-switch. For older players, I don't switch them because they won't regain their skill level in time to make it worthwhile (unless it is the aforementioned MLB to WILB/SILB switch, and usually then only to satisfy required numbers at certain positions).

To summarize, I don't think it makes a big difference in similar positions (LB to LB, S to S, WR to WR) but for switches between position groups, it is best to only do it with younger, undeveloped players.

SplitPersonality1 · 04-02-2004, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Baxter to RB, and Joppru to FB?.

Hehe. Wrong league.

Buzzbee · 04-02-2004, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Now that I've read your post, if you're talking about a couple years, I'd still be wary of switching his position -- if you're saying you do intend to switch him back. Not for his present value, but his future -- my guess is he'll take a big hit when you switch him back.

Possibly not. I believe that if he has several years of experience at the previous position, he will retain that experience. You can confirm this by switching a LB to Safety, and then back to LB. The ratings will go back up (I believe) since that is where he has the experience.

Split - What positions are you considering switching FROM/TO? And how old is the player?

yabanci · 04-02-2004, 05:29 PM

I've heard people argue that you can avoid taking any kind of ratings hit by playing a player out of position but not officially making the position change. Knowing the attention to detail Jim puts into his games, however, I have a hard time believing that he is sloppy enough to allow such a glaring loophole.

My personal rule is if I make a decision to play a guy at a different position, I make the official position change. If I'm just having a guy cover a different position for a few games, I just play him out of position.

My most recent position change was moving a 9-year veteran MLB to WLB during the offseason. He initially showed a hit in current ability of about 10 (overall) points and about 7 points in future ablity. By the end of the exhibition season, however, he had already gained about 6 of those points back (both in current and future potential) and is still going up. In other words, both his current AND future potential are significantly higher at the new position than they were when I first made the change. If I propose to move him back to MLB, I get the message (paraprhased) that the player has significantly more experience at the new position (MLB) and there's reason to believe the change could increase the player's ratings level. This tells me he is learning the new position quickly and hasn't forgotten the old position.

With regard to playing a guy out of position, I don't see how you could possibly tell from looking at the statistics whether the player has taken a ratings hit or not. You would be comparing apples to oranges (i.e., comparing a DT's stats to a DE's, for example).

I agree with the others, however, that we don't really know the answers to these questions.

Passacaglia · 04-02-2004, 05:32 PM

I don't care if it's the wrong league, I would still love to se you run those guys, and cut the crap with -- who? Tony Hollings? Come on.

Franklinnoble · 04-02-2004, 07:44 PM

I just play them out of position, in most cases. I've had many teams where I've been able to get stud FB's a lot easier and cheaper than good RB's, and I've found that they run out of position just as well.

BigJohn&TheLions · 04-03-2004, 01:42 AM

Save the game before switching positions. that way if you don't like what you see you can revert with no hit.

Ben E Lou · 04-03-2004, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I don't think there exists any data on this - it has been brought up several times, and I have yet to see (or, admittedly, to provide) any follow up.

My rule of thumb, which seems to work (without any grounding for that, really) is this:

-If the player is in his first or second year and is still mostly potential, and if the scout says he will make the switch easily (with a very high % of skills retained) then I will make the permanent switch

-Otherwise (and that's most cases) I will just play him out of position. I generally have had difficulty seeing any drop-off in results when playing players this way.

That's pretty much exactly where I stand, and how I handle it.

QuikSand · 04-03-2004, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

Split - There was a thread early after FOF2k4 was released in which this was discussed. You can probably do a search on "position change" or something like it and you will find it. There was a post by Jim regarding position changes. If I remember, it was talking about switching Offensive Linemen around, and Jim's comment basically said that there really isn't a difference in switching a LG to a RG, or RG to RT, but that the one area where it made a difference was at LT, since it is a more specialized position (guarding the QB from a blind side pass rush).

I remember Jim posting something along these lines, but I thought it was in regard to using players out of position, rather than switching player positions permanently. Makes a pretty big difference.

I recall him saying that if you played a lineman from another position at LT, there would be some meaningful performance dropoff, but that just about any other out-of-position use would be pretty minor.

Sounds like it's worth re-locating...

04-02-2004, 04:50 PM	#2
Maple Leafs Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002	I can't provide any specific data, but I don't think I've ever switched a guy's position. I always just play him out of position, and don't seem to notice any serious performance hit. I guess in theory the way this should be handled would be to have the initial effect be exactly the same, but to have the play who is officially switched eventually "grow into" the new position. __________________ Down Goes Brown: Toronto Maple Leafs Humor and Analysis

04-02-2004, 05:09 PM	#7
Buzzbee College Starter Join Date: Jun 2002	Split - There was a thread early after FOF2k4 was released in which this was discussed. You can probably do a search on "position change" or something like it and you will find it. There was a post by Jim regarding position changes. If I remember, it was talking about switching Offensive Linemen around, and Jim's comment basically said that there really isn't a difference in switching a LG to a RG, or RG to RT, but that the one area where it made a difference was at LT, since it is a more specialized position (guarding the QB from a blind side pass rush). In regard to switching a MLB to WILB/SILB or even to WLB to SLB, I don't think there is much difference at all. Same for SE to FL or FS to SS. Where it would make a difference is if you were moving from one postion to a significantly different position. For example switching from SS to SLB would be fairly significant and would see ratings drops. Likewise for TE to FB. I tend to follow whay QuikSand outlined above. I'm more willing to switch a younger player since they don't have much Current skill to lose, if the Potential is projected to remain close to what it is pre-switch. For older players, I don't switch them because they won't regain their skill level in time to make it worthwhile (unless it is the aforementioned MLB to WILB/SILB switch, and usually then only to satisfy required numbers at certain positions). To summarize, I don't think it makes a big difference in similar positions (LB to LB, S to S, WR to WR) but for switches between position groups, it is best to only do it with younger, undeveloped players. __________________ Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. - Lou Holtz

04-03-2004, 01:42 AM	#13
BigJohn&TheLions College Benchwarmer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New York	Save the game before switching positions. that way if you don't like what you see you can revert with no hit. __________________ In the immortal words of a great alcoholic, "Can't we all just get along?"

04-02-2004, 04:57 PM	#3
QuikSand lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Annapolis, Md	I don't think there exists any data on this - it has been brought up several times, and I have yet to see (or, admittedly, to provide) any follow up. My rule of thumb, which seems to work (without any grounding for that, really) is this: -If the player is in his first or second year and is still mostly potential, and if the scout says he will make the switch easily (with a very high % of skills retained) then I will make the permanent switch -Otherwise (and that's most cases) I will just play him out of position. I generally have had difficulty seeing any drop-off in results when playing players this way.

04-02-2004, 05:04 PM	#5
Passacaglia Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Big Ten Country	Baxter to RB, and Joppru to FB? Big changes like that, I'd play them out of position, and see what happens. Willig at RT? I'd look at what it tells me, and see what he'll look like there. If it's not good, I wouldn't bother. Buckley at DE? Again, I'd switch him and see what it says. My thinking is to play him out of position if I see it as temporary, and switch him if I want it to last for the whole season. Of course that's probably a pretty obvious statement.

04-02-2004, 05:05 PM	#6
Passacaglia Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Big Ten Country	Now that I've read your post, if you're talking about a couple years, I'd still be wary of switching his position -- if you're saying you do intend to switch him back. Not for his present value, but his future -- my guess is he'll take a big hit when you switch him back.

04-02-2004, 05:29 PM	#10
yabanci College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jun 2003	I've heard people argue that you can avoid taking any kind of ratings hit by playing a player out of position but not officially making the position change. Knowing the attention to detail Jim puts into his games, however, I have a hard time believing that he is sloppy enough to allow such a glaring loophole. My personal rule is if I make a decision to play a guy at a different position, I make the official position change. If I'm just having a guy cover a different position for a few games, I just play him out of position. My most recent position change was moving a 9-year veteran MLB to WLB during the offseason. He initially showed a hit in current ability of about 10 (overall) points and about 7 points in future ablity. By the end of the exhibition season, however, he had already gained about 6 of those points back (both in current and future potential) and is still going up. In other words, both his current AND future potential are significantly higher at the new position than they were when I first made the change. If I propose to move him back to MLB, I get the message (paraprhased) that the player has significantly more experience at the new position (MLB) and there's reason to believe the change could increase the player's ratings level. This tells me he is learning the new position quickly and hasn't forgotten the old position. With regard to playing a guy out of position, I don't see how you could possibly tell from looking at the statistics whether the player has taken a ratings hit or not. You would be comparing apples to oranges (i.e., comparing a DT's stats to a DE's, for example). I agree with the others, however, that we don't really know the answers to these questions.

04-02-2004, 05:32 PM	#11
Passacaglia Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Big Ten Country	I don't care if it's the wrong league, I would still love to se you run those guys, and cut the crap with -- who? Tony Hollings? Come on.

04-02-2004, 07:44 PM	#12
Franklinnoble Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Placerville, CA	I just play them out of position, in most cases. I've had many teams where I've been able to get stud FB's a lot easier and cheaper than good RB's, and I've found that they run out of position just as well.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)