CM 03/04: Criticizing players

Pumpy Tudors · 04-19-2004, 01:18 AM

In my CM 03/04 game, I have a forward who's been going through a rough stretch, so I criticized his performances through the media. I was hoping to make him aware of his poor play, and I guess I kinda wanted a scapegoat too. In an exclusive interview with a local newspaper, he admitted that he's played badly, and he wants me to help him through his slump. Well, this looks to be working out well so far, but I'll have to wait and see how this affects his performance in the future.

So that leads me to a question. Am I making proper use of the criticize option? As I said, I wanted it to be a wake-up call to him. Is there maybe another reason to use it, or is it a bad idea to use it the way I did? I'm just curious.

SirFozzie · 04-19-2004, 01:52 AM

I use it if I think a player needs a boost after playing a couple games poorly. It hurts their pride to see you question their effort (and the fans usually back you up on it), and they try extra hard to win back the fans.

klayman · 04-19-2004, 01:54 AM

You can also use it if you are trying to force a player out of the team.

SirFozzie · 04-19-2004, 01:59 AM

yeah, but it costs you professionalism, which I think is important when you're trying to sign folks

Pumpy Tudors · 04-19-2004, 02:07 AM

Well, to add to the fun, he continued to play poorly, so I criticized him AGAIN, only a couple of weeks later. Again, he states that he'll raise his efforts. I put him on the transfer list for a couple of days and offered him to 100 teams who all said no. I took a look at his information as I was about to lower the asking price for him, and he has me listed as one of his favored personnel. The guy loves me. I can't let him go now.

MrBug708 · 04-19-2004, 02:10 AM

Wow, congrats.

usually the more tempermental players get upset when u go to the media. Either it's their nature or they are the "million dollar cry babies" basically. Everyone reacts differently. Just like some players thank you for kind words.

Pumpy Tudors · 04-19-2004, 02:39 AM

Now I'm trying to turn things around with my poor squad that's only scored 2 goals in the first 8 league matches. I'm going to give the previously mentioned player about 3-5 matches of first-team action, and if things don't improve, he's going down to the reserve squad to try to work things out. I really want him and the rest of my team to play well, but if it doesn't happen, there will be some shakeups. Just for reference, I'm managing Gubbio in the Italian Serie C2/B. I think we'll probably get relegated, which means that I'll be looking for a new job after the season. Urgh.

Marc Vaughan · 04-19-2004, 04:36 AM

Players in the game have complex personalities and you'll find treating them in certain ways can get the best out of them, most common extreme personalities are:

confidence players - These players need confidence to play well, if bit-players in a team (ie. not regulars) then they never seem to perform to their full
complacent players - These players tend to get cocky if left in the team and their performance will generally drop off somewhat if made a regular fixture in a squad.
pressure players - These players will tend to only turn it on in games which interest them (ie. big fixtures, especially those televised)
Poor pressure players - These players will tend to fall apart in big games as they can't handle the pressure associated with them.

Please bear in mind that none of these are 'hard coded' and simply come to being because we simulate the personalities of players in a flexible and fairly complex manner using various hidden attributes (ie. what I'm trying to say is there are several thousand different personalities in the game - how you handle them and working out what 'works' best for each player is part of the challenge CM/FM).

You can glean a lot of information about your players personalities by paying close attention to their profiles (especially their happiness comments) and also news item text involving them.

For example when you offer a contract to a player you might not that some players 'demand' a certain wage - this sort of text gives you a subtle indicator of the players personality and how to handle him effectively.

Have Fun,

Marc

andy m · 04-19-2004, 05:17 AM

the above post goes some way to explaining just why CM is so far ahead of OOTP when it comes to the single player experience.

daedalus · 04-19-2004, 05:39 AM

What andy said.

All at once I heart CM because it's an incredible game and I hate it because it's really difficult to play another game now.

ice4277 · 04-19-2004, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy m

the above post goes some way to explaining just why CM is so far ahead of OOTP when it comes to the single player experience.

Not just OOTP but really any text sim on the market at this time. I can't really see another sim getting to this point of player development within the next two or three years.

andy m · 04-19-2004, 05:55 AM

well, if ever really. SI has the resources to spend time on making this part of the game so deep. i don't think jim or markus would have the time available to work this kind of detail into their games unless they sold more copies and had more programmers working on their games.

ice4277 · 04-19-2004, 05:57 AM

Well, I could possibly see it happening with OOTP, I think with ITP they are kind of headed in that direction. You're right about FOF though, I doubt that with his current setup, Jim has the time or desire to do such a thing.

Marc Vaughan · 04-19-2004, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy m

well, if ever really. SI has the resources to spend time on making this part of the game so deep. i don't think jim or markus would have the time available to work this kind of detail into their games unless they sold more copies and had more programmers working on their games.

I know Markus is heading in this direction and I'm sure in time OOTP will be as fully fledged as CM/FM is, Markus is a very talented game designer (probably better than me if I'm honest) and I fully expect OOTP to continue to improve in the future.

Mota · 04-19-2004, 06:33 AM

Sure the other sim makers could do this. But it would have to be #1 on their priority list for that season's version. I also think that FOF has been designed to be played from a higher level than this (ie. to play through seasons quicker vs. playing this much in depth). OOTP is a different story, although Markus has concentrated on fixing the engine over the increased interaction. What I'd give for an OOTP with better news stories, better PBP and more player interaction though... that would be amazing.

Mota · 04-19-2004, 06:36 AM

Oh yeah, and the whole point to my last post (which I completely forgot to mention) is how one of my players had a rating of 3 in consecutive games. I decided to criticize him, and that was pretty much the end of that player. He freaked out, saying he regretted coming to this team. A few other players got bad morale. After sitting on the bench for a few games, he finally snapped out of it, and the morale problem was fixed, although I could never get this guy to play well. Couldn't transfer him either, damn AI is too good.

Honolulu_Blue · 04-19-2004, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mota

Oh yeah, and the whole point to my last post (which I completely forgot to mention) is how one of my players had a rating of 3 in consecutive games. I decided to criticize him, and that was pretty much the end of that player. He freaked out, saying he regretted coming to this team. A few other players got bad morale. After sitting on the bench for a few games, he finally snapped out of it, and the morale problem was fixed, although I could never get this guy to play well. Couldn't transfer him either, damn AI is too good.

I had a similar situation. The media were praising the performance of my star forward. Saying that he was playing the best football of his career, etc, etc, etc. I didn't really agree with the pundits. I thought he had played better the year before and was sort of coasting along. So, I decided to disagree with the media and said the striker could play better. A mistake. He went balistic. My back-up goalie got pissed at how I "mistreated" the striker. The striker immediately went to the media and started sqauwking about how the team would be better if it had better players. That, of course, sent shockwaves throughout the entire squad. They all started turning on the striker, calling him arrogant, wanting him off the team, etc. It was a meltdown. I finally shipped the guy out and order was restored.

That was a prior career. Currently I am in the First Division (just having been promoted), Plymouth, and most of the guys are pretty reasonable, with little in the way of egos. I have had a couple of complaints about getting first team ball, but every time I tell them to wait their turn and they come back and say I was right and they were wrong to go to the media. I think it helps that the team has found an amazing stretch of good fortune and is currently second place in the First Division. We were expected to "battle bravely against relegation". Needless to say, after any impressive win we are constantly reminded of this and the pundits always wonder if getting promoted is just "too much to ask of the lads."

BreizhManu · 04-19-2004, 07:24 AM

Sure it is good but it has is limitations, after a while you know what to say to the medias, who to praise, who to criticize etc...

Marc Vaughan · 04-19-2004, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BreizhManu

Sure it is good but it has is limitations, after a while you know what to say to the medias, who to praise, who to criticize etc...

Life's like that to a certain extent - if you are managing a team of people then you work out how to motivate them etc. ...

We will continue evolving the media/personality side of the game in the future, but ultimately it will always be something you can assess and 'handle' ... as it is irl.

PS. The manager mind-games stuff for FM will rock, this involves firing supportive (or sniping) messages at rival managers ala Ferguson-Wenger irl.

Blade6119 · 04-19-2004, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

PS. The manager mind-games stuff for FM will rock, this involves firing supportive (or sniping) messages at rival managers ala Ferguson-Wenger irl.

SWEEEEETTTT!!!! Will you marry me Marc, because i seriously love you with the features you bust out!

Honolulu_Blue · 04-19-2004, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade6119

SWEEEEETTTT!!!! Will you marry me Marc, because i seriously love you with the features you bust out!

Agreed! (except for that whole marrying part).

I would love to be able to snipe away at some rival managers, especially after a game that sees the opposing squad rack up the yellow cards.

Lucky Jim · 04-19-2004, 11:15 AM

FM is going to be amazing. One of the only things that doesn't add to the immersion for me in the CM games is scouting players. It gets tedious assigning scouts, and then reading through news reports on "decent signings" that really aren't worth looking at. I never feel like I know anything about a scouted player, the assessments are often so vague as to be meaningless. I have some misgivings about the way player development works as well, but I think that's more due to an understanding of the ca/pa stuff in the engine than the way development is actually shown in the game. It's hard to find things not to like with what SI does, like I said, FM is going to be amazing.

Blade6119 · 04-19-2004, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Agreed! (except for that whole marrying part)

Yah, too much...i was talking to my gf on the phone and i guess my romantic tone just didnt change for the board..my apologies marc and all men

...Disregard that ever happened

04-19-2004, 01:52 AM	#2
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	I use it if I think a player needs a boost after playing a couple games poorly. It hurts their pride to see you question their effort (and the fans usually back you up on it), and they try extra hard to win back the fans. __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com

04-19-2004, 01:59 AM	#4
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	yeah, but it costs you professionalism, which I think is important when you're trying to sign folks __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com

04-19-2004, 02:07 AM	#5
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	Well, to add to the fun, he continued to play poorly, so I criticized him AGAIN, only a couple of weeks later. Again, he states that he'll raise his efforts. I put him on the transfer list for a couple of days and offered him to 100 teams who all said no. I took a look at his information as I was about to lower the asking price for him, and he has me listed as one of his favored personnel. The guy loves me. I can't let him go now. __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

04-19-2004, 02:39 AM	#7
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	Now I'm trying to turn things around with my poor squad that's only scored 2 goals in the first 8 league matches. I'm going to give the previously mentioned player about 3-5 matches of first-team action, and if things don't improve, he's going down to the reserve squad to try to work things out. I really want him and the rest of my team to play well, but if it doesn't happen, there will be some shakeups. Just for reference, I'm managing Gubbio in the Italian Serie C2/B. I think we'll probably get relegated, which means that I'll be looking for a new job after the season. Urgh. __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

04-19-2004, 05:17 AM	#9
andy m High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: norwich, UK	the above post goes some way to explaining just why CM is so far ahead of OOTP when it comes to the single player experience. __________________ mostly harmless FOFL 2009 champs - Norwich Quagmire

04-19-2004, 01:54 AM	#3
klayman College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Edmonton	You can also use it if you are trying to force a player out of the team.

04-19-2004, 02:10 AM	#6
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	Wow, congrats. usually the more tempermental players get upset when u go to the media. Either it's their nature or they are the "million dollar cry babies" basically. Everyone reacts differently. Just like some players thank you for kind words.

04-19-2004, 04:36 AM	#8
Marc Vaughan SI Games Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Melbourne, FL	Players in the game have complex personalities and you'll find treating them in certain ways can get the best out of them, most common extreme personalities are: confidence players - These players need confidence to play well, if bit-players in a team (ie. not regulars) then they never seem to perform to their full complacent players - These players tend to get cocky if left in the team and their performance will generally drop off somewhat if made a regular fixture in a squad. pressure players - These players will tend to only turn it on in games which interest them (ie. big fixtures, especially those televised) Poor pressure players - These players will tend to fall apart in big games as they can't handle the pressure associated with them. Please bear in mind that none of these are 'hard coded' and simply come to being because we simulate the personalities of players in a flexible and fairly complex manner using various hidden attributes (ie. what I'm trying to say is there are several thousand different personalities in the game - how you handle them and working out what 'works' best for each player is part of the challenge CM/FM). You can glean a lot of information about your players personalities by paying close attention to their profiles (especially their happiness comments) and also news item text involving them. For example when you offer a contract to a player you might not that some players 'demand' a certain wage - this sort of text gives you a subtle indicator of the players personality and how to handle him effectively. Have Fun, Marc

04-19-2004, 05:39 AM	#10
daedalus Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000	What andy said. All at once I heart CM because it's an incredible game and I hate it because it's really difficult to play another game now.

04-19-2004, 05:55 AM	#12
andy m High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: norwich, UK	well, if ever really. SI has the resources to spend time on making this part of the game so deep. i don't think jim or markus would have the time available to work this kind of detail into their games unless they sold more copies and had more programmers working on their games. __________________ mostly harmless FOFL 2009 champs - Norwich Quagmire

04-19-2004, 05:57 AM	#13
ice4277 Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Berkley, MI: The Hotbed of FOFC!	Well, I could possibly see it happening with OOTP, I think with ITP they are kind of headed in that direction. You're right about FOF though, I doubt that with his current setup, Jim has the time or desire to do such a thing.

04-19-2004, 06:33 AM	#15
Mota College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jan 2001	Sure the other sim makers could do this. But it would have to be #1 on their priority list for that season's version. I also think that FOF has been designed to be played from a higher level than this (ie. to play through seasons quicker vs. playing this much in depth). OOTP is a different story, although Markus has concentrated on fixing the engine over the increased interaction. What I'd give for an OOTP with better news stories, better PBP and more player interaction though... that would be amazing.

04-19-2004, 06:36 AM	#16
Mota College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jan 2001	Oh yeah, and the whole point to my last post (which I completely forgot to mention) is how one of my players had a rating of 3 in consecutive games. I decided to criticize him, and that was pretty much the end of that player. He freaked out, saying he regretted coming to this team. A few other players got bad morale. After sitting on the bench for a few games, he finally snapped out of it, and the morale problem was fixed, although I could never get this guy to play well. Couldn't transfer him either, damn AI is too good.

04-19-2004, 07:24 AM	#18
BreizhManu College Benchwarmer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Paris, France	Sure it is good but it has is limitations, after a while you know what to say to the medias, who to praise, who to criticize etc...

04-19-2004, 11:15 AM	#22
Lucky Jim Mascot Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington, DC	FM is going to be amazing. One of the only things that doesn't add to the immersion for me in the CM games is scouting players. It gets tedious assigning scouts, and then reading through news reports on "decent signings" that really aren't worth looking at. I never feel like I know anything about a scouted player, the assessments are often so vague as to be meaningless. I have some misgivings about the way player development works as well, but I think that's more due to an understanding of the ca/pa stuff in the engine than the way development is actually shown in the game. It's hard to find things not to like with what SI does, like I said, FM is going to be amazing.

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