Elton attacks 'censorship' in US

[GrantDawg]

hxxp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3902833.stm

Elton John has said stars are scared to speak out against war in Iraq because of "bullying tactics" used by the US government to hinder free speech.


"There's an atmosphere of fear in America right now that is deadly. Everyone is too career-conscious," he told New York magazine, Interview.

Sir Elton said performers could be "frightened by the current administration's bullying tactics",

The singer likened the current "fear factor" to McCarthyism in the 1950s.

"There was a moment about a year ago when you couldn't say a word about anything in this country for fear of your career being shot down by people saying you are un-American," he told the magazine.

The singer said things were different in the 1960s.

"People like Bob Dylan, Nina Simone, The Beatles and Pete Seeger were constantly writing and talking about what was going on.

Backlash

"That's not happening now. As of this spring, there have been virtually no anti-war concerts - or anti-war songs that catch on, for that matter," he said.

He voiced concern that it appeared acceptable to speak out if you were pro-Bush, using the example of country singer Toby Keith, but not if you were critical of the President, as in the case of country rock band, the Dixie Chicks.

"On the one hand, you have someone like Toby Keith, who has come out and been very supportive of the Bush administration and the war in Iraq - which is OK because America is a democracy and Toby Keith is entitled to say what he thinks and feels.

"But, on the other hand, the Dixie Chicks got shot down in flames last year for criticising the president. They were treated like they were being un-American, when in fact they have every right to say whatever they want about him because he's freely elected, and therefore accountable." Sir Elton is currently in New York playing a series of concerts.

[GrantDawg]

I know we have had this discussion before, but...

Can you point out anywhere in what he said that actually supports a censorship label? Or can you see anywhere where he talks about exactly what tactics the current adminstration is using that he considers "bullying?"

He cites the example of the Dixie Chicks. Has anyone even suggested the government stopped them from playing or saying anything (which would be censorship)? Did the Whitehouse ever send men over to lean on them to shut up? No.

If the American public does not like what you say and chooses not to buy your records, that is not censorship. If companies choose not to renew contracts or distances themselves from you, that is not censorship. If the government says you cannot sell your albums, or that you are no longer allowed to play in the States, that would be censorship.

I get so tired of the false accusations from both sides of the debate.

[Cuckoo]

I get so tired of the false accusations from both sides of the debate.

Yep. Both sides claim censorship. Sometimes it's probably justified to a degree. Often it's not. How successful would a young conservative be in the movie business? Not very I would presume, especially if they were vocal.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

Both sides claim censorship. How successful would a young conservative be in the movie business? Not very I would presume, especially if they were vocal.

But that is not censorship. If the government would not let him work...

[Cuckoo]

It's not censorship at all, but that's the word people throw out there because it's inflammatory. Words like censorship and bigot and traitor... They're thrown around all the time now, and are almost never appropriate.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

It's not censorship at all, but that's the word people throw out there because it's inflammatory. Words like censorship and bigot and traitor... They're thrown around all the time now, and are almost never appropriate.

And the obligatory comparison to Hitler. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

[Cuckoo]

I agree with you completely GD. I wasn't refuting anything you said. I was just refuting Mr. Elton and his comments that it's one-sided. It's certainly not.

[Dutch]

I don't know, my first quick impression of Hollywood actors and musicians have been overwhelmingly that they bash Bush and the War on Terror. I would think if anything is censored it's the actors and musicians that are pro-Bush. They would probably be black-listed in their industries and by their labor unions for speaking out.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I don't know, my first quick impression of Hollywood actors and musicians have been overwhelmingly that they bash Bush and the War on Terror. I would think if anything is censored it's the actors and musicians that are pro-Bush. They would probably be black-listed in their industries and by their labor unions for speaking out.

I honestly don't buy the blacklisting of conservatives either. I have heard interviews with conservatives who have said they were "afraid" to speak pro-Bush because of their carreer (same song and dance as Elton above), but I have also heard interviews with conservative actors (and there are several) who have never had a single problem. You must remember that it is money that talks. If you take a strong stance against what the vast majority of Americans agree with (when the war started and Natalie Maines made her comment, support for the war was at an all-time high) you are going to have strong backlasah. BUT, most of the time these celebs can say whatever they want and it gets very little comment (many of the top stars right now, including Sheryl Crow, have had incidents of mouth diarrea that hasn't affected them one bit).

The movies are the same way. Controversy can scare them off (see "The Passion of the Christ") but money will have them begging for you (see any freakin sequel). I just don't buy there is a huge blacklist of conservatives or liberals, but if your mouth runs off it can cost you in the pocketbook.

[Cuckoo]

Remember, though, it's one thing for a conservative who has already earned pull in Hollywood through earlier successes such as the Arnolds and Bruce Willis' of the world to not be blacklisted, and it's quite another for a vocal conservative to get the opportunity to join that select group.

[clintl]

Name a Hollywood conservative that has been blacklisted for recent comments. I don't think there are any.

As was pointed out, there is a big difference between censorship and public opinion backlash. And there is also a big difference between censorship and private media outlets deciding what they want to publish or distribute. Everyone has the right to free speech. No one has the right to any specific media outlet for that speech.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by clintl

Name a Hollywood conservative that has been blacklisted for recent comments. I don't think there are any.

As was pointed out, there is a big difference between censorship and public opinion backlash. And there is also a big difference between censorship and private media outlets deciding what they want to publish or distribute. Everyone has the right to free speech. No one has the right to any specific media outlet for that speech.

I agree with your second paragraph completely.

My comment about Hollywood conservatives was not that any have been blacklisted, but that it would be much more difficult for a person who was conservative to break into the business.

The Rock was formerly a very outspoken Republican until his movie career began. He backed off his former positions and discontinued participating in Republican events. He now considers himself somewhere in the middle, and his career (as it is) has continued.

At one point in time (and I can't remember the magazine, E.W. maybe), the picture of a television actress (I think it was that Delaney chick from CSI Miami) appeared next to an article about conservatives in Hollywood. She was incensed at the magazine and demanded that they write a correction saying that she wasn't in anyway a conservative because she received phone calls from many in the business condemning her, and she felt like her career was in jeopardy. And she wasn't even a conservative.

I think to pretend that a certain type of blacklisting of those with opinions on the right in Hollywood doesn't exist is to ignore a lot.

[JPhillips]

If you sell tickets or get ad revenue Hollywood won't give a rats ass what your politics are. It's all about the dollars.

[Cuckoo]

I disagree JPhillips. They may tolerate the household names who bring in the bucks, but if they had their say, I'd bet they'd make sure as few others with right-leaning political beliefs reach that status as possible.

[JPhillips]

I don't work in Hollywood, but I do work in entertainment. If I see an audition that blows me away and I believe it will have a similar effect on the audience I don't care what they think about Bush or Kerry or anything else politically. What matters first is talent. I have never had a political discussion with somone that I am thinking about casting.

I think this is generally in line with the whole liberal media conspiracy that I believe doesn't exist. Sure much of Hollywood is liberal, but while a Geffen of Wienburg might criticize someone conservative they'll take the money they can make from a star any day of the week.

[Cuckoo]

If you're talking about someone with singular talent, then I would agree with you. The vast majority of those looking to break into the business however rarely possess qualities that would make them unquestionable money-makers. For them, being an outspoken conservative would hinder their efforts.

I don't think this is any kind of conspiracy. It's simply a matter of very staunchly political people wishing to be with their own. It would be the same on the other side of the aisle.

[JPhillips]

I just completely disagree. Politics doesn't come out until after soeone has broken into the business and by then their ability to bring in an audience is more important than anything else. One of the best actors I ever directed was also one of the most difficult human beings I've ever been around. I would never want to spend time outside of rehearsal with this guy, but I'd cast him again in a heartbeat because the audience loved him.

The entertainment business doesn't care about politics when you're a little guy. They only care about the bigshots. While servatives may feel isolated I can guarante you that if they have talent and a good work ethic they will work. Remember Hollywood is run by people that are businessmen first and liberals second, not the other way around.

[Cuckoo]

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I think that when a person is a little guy is precisely when Hollywood cares about politics because that's when they have the power. When a person reaches superstar status or, like you said, the audience loves them, they would cast that person despite their political beliefs.

I'm talking about the cases where politics is an issue before someone has truly broken into the business, as in the examples I've sited above. When we're speaking of everyday actors who could be replaced with little effect on a project or its celebrity status (see Delaney), I would think that outspoken politics that differed with the more left-leaning Hollywood would be an issue.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Remember Hollywood is run by people that are businessmen first and liberals second, not the other way around.

I agree. It is always about the money. That is not say that it could hurt/help someone in certain situations (the guy that wears NRA t-shirts to auditions, etc.), but it is not likely that casting directors are grilling applicants on their poltical leanings.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

(the guy that wears NRA t-shirts to auditions, etc.)

Stop making fun of Cam. I say he would've made a perfect Spider-Man.

[Dutch]

I lived in Los Angeles for 8 years. While not the subject matter expert, I saw enough "acting" by wannabe-actors. The wannabe's weren't trying to go against the grain. They were doing everything in their power to "fit in". And that meant being very liberal.

And acting "More Liberal" is another tactic the wanna-be's use.

Look, we can say it's equal, 50-50, even-steven if we want, but Michael Moore is making movies that Hollywood is oogling all over. Hollywood is praising "Air America". Hollywood is bashing Bush every 10 seconds at the Oscars.

Hollywood is not coming out with a lot of conservative minded agenda banter or rhetoric because it is shunned by management.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I lived in Los Angeles for 8 years. While not the subject matter expert, I saw enough "acting" by wannabe-actors. The wannabe's weren't trying to go against the grain. They were doing everything in their power to "fit in". And that meant being very liberal.

And acting "More Liberal" is another tactic the wanna-be's use.

Look, we can say it's equal, 50-50, even-steven if we want, but Michael Moore is making movies that Hollywood is oogling all over. Hollywood is praising "Air America". Hollywood is bashing Bush every 10 seconds at the Oscars.

Hollywood is not coming out with a lot of conservative minded agenda banter or rhetoric because it is shunned by management.

Not saying that it is or that is 50/50. It is never going to be 50/50. That is not because of blacklisting and censorship. It has a whole lot more to do with left brain/right brain thinking. Artistic people tend to be left brain thinkers (and more liberal) as opposed to right brain thinkers. Think of all the artistic friends you may have had in high-school or knew in college. Where would the majority of them fall politically? 9 out of 10 that I know, knew, have known would be well to the left of center.

[JPhillips]

Grantdawg: Exactly. The arts will always attract a more liberal mindset just as banking will always attract a more conservative one.

Dutch: Moore didn't just show up one day from nowhere and get funding for F9/11. He has proven to be a filmmaker that will bring a return on the studio's investment and garner a huge amount of free publicity. While Weinstein certainly agrees with Moore's polotics, he wouldn't touch this film if he didn't think it would make money. There isn't a single producer willing to throw away money on political movies that won't sell. The incredible numbers for Moore's film only show how smart of a business decision Weinstein made.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I don't know, my first quick impression of Hollywood actors and musicians have been overwhelmingly that they bash Bush and the War on Terror. I would think if anything is censored it's the actors and musicians that are pro-Bush. They would probably be black-listed in their industries and by their labor unions for speaking out.

They are...anyone remember Rosie O'Donnel bushwacking Tom Selleck on her show about his involvment in the NRA?

[Leonidas]

The only legit beef I can see Sir Elton having is over the gay marriage thing, then again, can anyone verify whether or not gays can get married in England?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

The only legit beef I can see Sir Elton having is over the gay marriage thing, then again, can anyone verify whether or not gays can get married in England?

No. Actually he would had a better beef if he talked about the FCC cracking down on radio. That is a whole lot closer to censorship.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

They are...anyone remember Rosie O'Donnel bushwacking Tom Selleck on her show about his involvment in the NRA?

That was neither censorship nor blacklisting. In fact, it wasn't anything different from what guys like Bill O'Reilly do to their guests every day. And as I recall, it was Rosie, and not Selleck, who ended up taking most of the heat for the incident.

[Craptacular]

The bitch is back.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Not saying that it is or that is 50/50. It is never going to be 50/50. That is not because of blacklisting and censorship. It has a whole lot more to do with left brain/right brain thinking. Artistic people tend to be left brain thinkers (and more liberal) as opposed to right brain thinkers. Think of all the artistic friends you may have had in high-school or knew in college. Where would the majority of them fall politically? 9 out of 10 that I know, knew, have known would be well to the left of center.

I've heard this before, and it leads me to wonder if it's true, it explains how all the gradiose, far flung, imaginative conspiracy theories always come from the Left. But what it doesn't explain is how the Left figures the Right has the imagination to create such intriguing and sinister "evil overlord" plans?

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I've heard this before, and it leads me to wonder if it's true, it explains how all the gradiose, far flung, imaginative conspiracy theories always come from the Left.

Like Vince Foster's "murder"?

[JPhillips]

Clintl: No, I think he was talking about the Clinton had Ron Brown killed story.

[Dutch]

There's no need to talk to me in the 3rd person. I'm still reading this thead you know!