Any of you listen to Rush Limbaugh?

[Sharpieman]

And heard about the story about a college kid who was told by his professor to seek psychological counseling because he had irrational views????
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Rea...e.asp?ID=16550
This is the story from the view of the guy who wrote it, this is my school that I go to and I've taken Woolcock's class. The kid is also the head of the Republican club at Foothill. Look at his essay and try to identify what is wrong with it. LOOK AT THE QUESTION of the Final exam. Also, just to note, I asked some of the students who were in the class with this kid and they all said that he got a 0 out of 100 on the midterm because he didn't take it.
Thoughts?

[Klinglerware]

I wouldn't have failed the kid (grade inflation, baby), but the paper does read more like an op-ed than an analytical paper. The writing is high-school level. Perhaps the psychotherapy request stems from his abuse of the all-caps wording?

[Sharpieman]

Well Woolcock said he thought the kid should talk with a counselor because the kid has an obvious predisposition about Kuwait and all that. Woolcock also is the hardest grader at Foothill college, I had to rewrite my thesis statement like 4 times because he didn't like it. The kid got an F because he didn't answer the question, 90% of his essay is about current times. He was supposed to analyize the past not the present.

[sabotai]

While I think the professor went over the line....

That essay response was just....wow. First he disagrees with Dye and Zeigler, doesn't answer the question, and then makes a statement that is in agreement with Dye and Zeigler. I would hope an answer to that question would just receive an F. Instead he did go well over the line. I realize it's his point of view, and very well may be a pack of lies, but if it's true even in the general sense, the professor did go over the line.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

He was supposed to analyize the past not the present.

Well, he didn't really do that either--the paper is incoherent and almost utterly devoid of supporting evidence. Do you guys have to take an introductory writing course?

[Sharpieman]

Well, the Professor says differently of course, he said that he didn't go crazy on the kid or anything, he just said his paper wasn't good and maybe he was having personal problems because he didn't come to the midterm and his paper wasn't formulated well.

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Well, he didn't really do that either--the paper is incoherent and almost utterly devoid of supporting evidence. Do you guys have to take an introductory writing course?

He's only 17 so he probably didn't take one. Also, this paper was supposed to be like 10 pages.

[ISiddiqui]

Jesus... that essay is piss poor. The essay is an op-ed (as stated) and THAT is an essay answer? That has to be the shortest answer I've ever seen for an exam that consisted of one essay question! How long did he take writing it?

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

Well, the Professor says differently of course, he said that he didn't go crazy on the kid or anything, he just said his paper wasn't good and maybe he was having personal problems because he didn't come to the midterm and his paper wasn't formulated well.

And it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this was the truth. I mean, the kid linked his essay in an article he wrote. He still seems to think it's such a great answer, the world should see it.

[randal7]

From the article:

The final exam consisted solely of one required essay: “Dye and Zeigler contend that the Constitution of the United States was not ‘ordained and established’ by ‘the people’ as we have so often been led to believe. They contend instead that it was written by a small educated and wealthy elite in America who were representative of powerful economic and political interests. Analyze the US constitution (original document), and show how its formulation excluded the majority of the people living in America at that time, and how it was dominated by America's elite interest.”

The wording of the question pretty well shows the professor's bias. At the very least, the last sentence should contain something like "explain their reasoning" rather than tacitly accepting it as fact. Ideally, the student should be offered the option to defend or refute Dye and Ziegler's position.

Having said that, this guy's essay was pretty crappy, although perhaps it is partially excused by his being a non-native English speaker.

Edit: apparently copy/pasting from the article gave me this large font. Sorry.

[Sharpieman]

Well, no one is given excuses for non-native english-in college your expected to be a OK writer. Woolcock said that you can refute the essay question, but you have to refute it, which the kid didn't.

[Suicane75]

No

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

No

No what?

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

No what?

No I don't listen to Rush.

[Sharpieman]

The other thing is that Woolcock is now getting emails and phone calls threatening his life...which isnt cool at all. I emailed the kid and asked him to stop it because of that reason. He needs to show some restraint becuause no one wants a professor to get hurt.

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

No I don't listen to Rush.

Well I just wanted to show the other side of the story. BTW, when I took Woolcocks class, you could tell he was more of a liberal guy, but its not overt that he is. I got a B in his class, I usually get straight A's so his classes are pretty damn hard in the first place. I guess this is just a case of a kid mad about his grade.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by randal7

From the article:

The final exam consisted solely of one required essay: “Dye and Zeigler contend that the Constitution of the United States was not ‘ordained and established’ by ‘the people’ as we have so often been led to believe. They contend instead that it was written by a small educated and wealthy elite in America who were representative of powerful economic and political interests. Analyze the US constitution (original document), and show how its formulation excluded the majority of the people living in America at that time, and how it was dominated by America's elite interest.”

The wording of the question pretty well shows the professor's bias. At the very least, the last sentence should contain something like "explain their reasoning" rather than tacitly accepting it as fact. Ideally, the student should be offered the option to defend or refute Dye and Ziegler's position.

Frankly, the original document and its formulation DID exclude the majority of people in the US (all blacks and women.. and non property holders in some states). It may show his bias, but it isn't an outrageous question.

[randal7]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Frankly, the original document and its formulation DID exclude the majority of people in the US (all blacks and women.. and non property holders in some states). It may show his bias, but it isn't an outrageous question.

I never said it was outrageous; I said his wording implied their position was fact, and, at least as the question was printed, there was no room for a dissenting opinion.

People were excluded by the Constitution, and the founders should be shamed at the exclusion, I agree. Although, if I was in the mood to argue, we could discuss how the country has gone down the toilet since we gave women the right to vote.

(That was a joke, before any of you have a brain embolism.)

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by randal7

I never said it was outrageous; I said his wording implied their position was fact, and, at least as the question was printed, there was no room for a dissenting opinion.

People were excluded by the Constitution, and the founders should be shamed at the exclusion, I agree. Although, if I was in the mood to argue, we could discuss how the country has gone down the toilet since we gave women the right to vote.

(That was a joke, before any of you have a brain embolism.)

You son of a.... oh wait .

Well I didn't get the implication that the position was a fact. He may believe it to be a fact, but the question seemed to me to be a show how this person's view may be correct. I imagine that a great majority of people in the class did not have that view, so it's a challenge to think in those terms and shows you read.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by sabotai

While I think the professor went over the line....

That essay response was just....wow. First he disagrees with Dye and Zeigler, doesn't answer the question, and then makes a statement that is in agreement with Dye and Zeigler. I would hope an answer to that question would just receive an F. Instead he did go well over the line. I realize it's his point of view, and very well may be a pack of lies, but if it's true even in the general sense, the professor did go over the line.

The professor should be disciplined for having asked the question that way in the first place. You must write an essay stating why you agree that these author's opinions are correct. Its bullshit on its very face. Asking students to write about or comment on it is fine, but students should be allowed to agree or disagree and should be graded on how well they write, and support their opinions.

[Fonzie]

Originally Posted by Samdari

The professor should be disciplined for having asked the question that way in the first place. You must write an essay stating why you agree that these author's opinions are correct. Its bullshit on its very face. Asking students to write about or comment on it is fine, but students should be allowed to agree or disagree and should be graded on how well they write, and support their opinions.

I disagree entirely. A good college education should challenge long-established beliefs, get students to contemplate why they have those beliefs, and to try to understand alternative viewpoints. It seems to me that the point of the essay was not to force students to change their worldview, but to show that they have thoughtfully considered and understood an alternate view. The world could use a lot more of that, in my opinion.

I'll grant that his wording could have been better, though.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Samdari

The professor should be disciplined for having asked the question that way in the first place. You must write an essay stating why you agree that these author's opinions are correct. Its bullshit on its very face. Asking students to write about or comment on it is fine, but students should be allowed to agree or disagree and should be graded on how well they write, and support their opinions.

I also disagree. Any question can be refuted with a little creativity and strong evidence. I did it regularly during my college career. College professors won't penalize you for thinking outside of the box if you write well and support your argument appropriately.

I'm just a little surprised that they don't make first-semester students (apparently he was one) take a writing class. That's one of the first things you should take when you get to college...

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by Samdari

The professor should be disciplined for having asked the question that way in the first place. You must write an essay stating why you agree that these author's opinions are correct. Its bullshit on its very face. Asking students to write about or comment on it is fine, but students should be allowed to agree or disagree and should be graded on how well they write, and support their opinions.

I agree completely. I thought part of education was critical thinking, which includes being able to offer a coherent dissent of a subject. Going by the professor's question, dissent from the thesis wasn't an option.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

I agree completely. I thought part of education was critical thinking, which includes being able to offer a coherent dissent of a subject.

Of course it is.

However in this case, the student turned in work that was of barely acceptable quality at the high school level, let alone college. Cam, did you read the essay? I'd be pretty embarrassed to turn that in, let alone post it on the internet for all the world to see. Now, if he turned something in with okay writing and a coherent argument and the professor still failed him, then we have an issue. Since the kid can't write and didn't show up for the mid-term, the F looks deserved and this looks like whining to the nth degree...

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Of course it is.

However in this case, the student turned in work that was of barely acceptable quality at the high school level, let alone college. Cam, did you read the essay? I'd be pretty embarrassed to turn that in, let alone post it on the internet for all the world to see. Now, if he turned something in with okay writing and a coherent argument and the professor still failed him, then we have an issue. Since the kid can't write and didn't show up for the mid-term, the F looks deserved and this looks like whining to the nth degree...

Notice I didn't defend the kid OR his essay. I merely found fault with a horrible question. It's entirely possible the kid deserved an F and the professor is so biased he's failing to do his job.

[Ajaxab]

As a college instructor, I too disagree with the nature of the question. Woolcocks should have offered his students the opportunity to engage with Dye and Ziegler in whatever manner they wanted. If this professor was more of a liberal as Sharpieman points out, then it sounds like he may have wanted something he mentioned/alluded to in class parroted back to him. Parroting back is anything but critical thinking.

The kid did deserve an F for failing to answer the question, but I would suggest the question is poor.

[Klinglerware]

I still think the question is refutable. This is the basic structure:

1. Dye and Ziegler make claim A, because of X, Y, & Z.
2. However X, Y, & Z don't have as much explanatory power as E,F,G--here's why.
3. Thusly, claim A is not as strong (or false, depending on your argument) as Dye and Ziegler suggest.

That sounds easy enough to me.

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

I still think the question is refutable. This is the basic structure:

1. Dye and Ziegler make claim A, because of X, Y, & Z.
2. However X, Y, & Z don't have as much explanatory power as E,F,G--here's why.
3. Thusly, claim A is not as strong (or false, depending on your argument) as Dye and Ziegler believe.

That sounds easy enough to me.

Well said. Regretably few 17 year olds have the logical power to make your excellent assertion.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

I agree completely. I thought part of education was critical thinking, which includes being able to offer a coherent dissent of a subject. Going by the professor's question, dissent from the thesis wasn't an option.

Essay questions in the liberal arts always SEEM to support the material. They are worded like that because the material is there, and the prof is (supposedly) an expert on said material. Just because said material may be slightly controversal doesn't mean an essay question should be worded "gee these authors have a theory that may or may not be correct, what do you think?"

The bottom line is to read, and think JUST LIKE the authors for a moment. If you disagree or agree with their opnion outside of the classroom is of no mind for the time you spend thinking like the author(s), and thats what the question is suppose to start in the student.

Now, after you are done thinking like the author(s) for the moment, then you bring in your outside knowledge and opinions. But its kinda hard to get students to think like the writer if you are wishy-washy with the questions.

[flere-imsaho]

Speaking as a History/PoliSci double major, it's my opinion that the question is out of line for an introductory class. However, I expect biased questions, even outrageous ones, for upper-level PoliSci classes. In my best classes, the professors would lob questions from the right, from the left, wherever. You learned how to refute them. That was the point.

Anyway, the crux of the problem here is that the kid doesn't know how to write and, sadly, he's not alone in his age group.

[sabotai]

Kepp in mind we are only seeing the question as it is written without knowing if the professor gave additional instructions (mine did, a lot). He could have said "You have to support the assertion. You don't have to agree with it or beleive it, but part of the assignment is to see how well you do when given an assertion and are told to support it." Like a debate. I have no problem with this. It teaches good research and critical thinking.

Or, he could have said "Here's the question. You have two options. One is to support the assertion and give evidence, or you can refute the assertion and give evidence."

So before we start balsting the professor for this, let's keep in mind that we hardly know the whole story. A student that doesn't show up for a mid term and hands that in as an answer to a take home essay final pretty much has no credibility in my opinion.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by sabotai

A student that doesn't show up for a mid term and hands that in as an answer to a take home essay final pretty much has no credibility in my opinion.

Yeah, I agree with that totally. How much are we going to trust this kid?