What IF? #1-America loses the Revolutionary War.

[vtbub]

We have a pretty smart bunch of folks here, so let's try something new. Let's rewrite some history and see where we think what would have been different if....


General George Washington was captured in Manhattan in November of 1776, trying to secure New York City for the United States. In an astounding defeat, the British starve the American Army and has the revolution under control by March 1777. What happens then?

[Franklinnoble]

Would have merely delayed the inevitable. The British simply did not have the resources to keep the colonies under control indefinately.

[JeeberD]

We would all be drinking tea and eatin crumpets right about now?

[Anthony]

Those still loyal to the Crown are given positions of power and prominence. A much larger British force is sent to the colonies to totally elimiate any hint of rebellion and to prevent an underground force from reassembling.

[Coffee Warlord]

My favorite...what if America decided to make its national language German (as they very nearly did) instead of English back during that same time period?

[rkmsuf]

I'm guessing the A-Team doesn't survive this.

No A-Team, no Moonlighting. Gives you pause.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Would have merely delayed the inevitable. The British simply did not have the resources to keep the colonies under control indefinately.

I agree here, post-rebellion, the British would probably govern their North American colonies even more punitively. This would stir even more resentment in the colonies that supported the rebellion (there would be few loyalists in those colonies, since many fled to present-day Canadian colonies during the revoultion). I would predict a continuation of small-scale insurgency even if Washington was captured, with another larger-scale rebellion in 10-20 years...

[Ksyrup]

Noel Gallagher might have found a legitimate reason for being a pompous ass.

[Surtt]

Ok I'll bite.

The Louisiana purchase never happens.
With the rich resources of the western us, France becomes a supper power, and dominates the western world.
God help us all.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Surtt

France becomes a supper power, and dominates the western world.
God help us all.

They have become more of a all-day power, with French Toast, French Bread, French Salad Dressing, and French Fries...not just a supper power.

[Kodos]

Ziggy sends Sam Beckett on his most ambitious mission yet: Defeating the crumpet-eating bastards by leading the American troops to victory while living in the body of a very buff gun-toting Martha Washington.

[Anthony]

Germany would have won WWII. Japan and Germany would have been the 2 baddest muthafuckas on the planet.

i wonder who ultimately would have wound up with the colonies, out of France and England. we only beat the Brits on a fluke, if you were to resim the Revolutionary War 10 times i think we'd have only beat them that one time. so we would have been property of the Brits, or maybe France would have got gready and moved north and eastwards after already having a large part of the south.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

They have become more of a all-day power, with French Toast, French Bread, French Salad Dressing, and French Fries...not just a supper power.

But their current status as a supper power cannot be denied. I could really go for some pan-seared foie gras right now...

[gottimd]

I think it is conceivable that there would have been a major war involving Spain, France and Britain. Who would've stopped Spains growth in the Southwest?

One thing is for sure, there would be no such thing as American Football, and that would be society I would rather sit in Purgatory than be a part of.

[Kam]

Front Office Cricket

[Desnudo]

We all end up owning pith helmets and enjoying the wit of Mr. Bean.

[gottimd]

Or maybe a band of highschool kids will get together and rebel against the tyranny of the invaders somewhere in the midwest, calling themselves "wolverines".

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by gottimd

Or maybe a band of highschool kids will get together and rebel against the tyranny of the invaders somewhere in the midwest, calling themselves "wolverines".

Winner.

[nfg22]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

Germany would have won WWII. Japan and Germany would have been the 2 baddest muthafuckas on the planet.

i wonder who ultimately would have wound up with the colonies, out of France and England. we only beat the Brits on a fluke, if you were to resim the Revolutionary War 10 times i think we'd have only beat them that one time. so we would have been property of the Brits, or maybe France would have got gready and moved north and eastwards after already having a large part of the south.

Only from simfanatics would we think of wars being resimmed. I love it...and maybe dean houston wouldnt have been born?

[weinstein7]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

My favorite...what if America decided to make its national language German (as they very nearly did) instead of English back during that same time period?

This is a common belief (at least amongst Europeans, particularly German speakers), but it's not true. I had an argument about this with a German friend a couple of years ago, so I did a little research. Basically what happened was there was a vote to print laws in German AS WELL as English, in deference to the large German-speaking population in Pennsylvania. However, the measure failed. I believe this happened in the 1790s, but I'm not 100% sure on that. Also, technically the US does not have an official language. It's de facto English, but not de jure, as the kids say.

You can find info on this all over the web, but this was the top of the page when I did a google search.

http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa010820a.htm

[vtbub]

I think gottimd, HA, and Franklin have good plausible idea's so far.

I'll post mine later.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by nfg22

Only from simfanatics would we think of wars being resimmed. I love it...and maybe dean houston wouldnt have been born?

of course he would have been born. Dean Houston is more than just a man who put on a helmet and cleats and won championships. was freedom ever born? no, it's just something that is. were bravery and the will to rise above the limitations of every man things that were created? no - these are feelings that have existed always in one form or another. they hang around in the air, waiting patiently, eons even, until they're discovered.

man is responsible for many great things - steam-powered boat, the written word, artwork of all types, architecture that seemingly touch the sky. but we didn't corner the market on some things. no, things like consistently standing tall in the face of your opposition. inspiring others to win. carrying your fellow teammates on your back to game winning drives year after year, being a humble role-model in the midst of your achievements. no, these things were with us since the time the sun first rose over the mountains and hills. yes, we've created many things. but you can't create winners.

you simply have to be one.

Dean Houston, to put it simply, would have walked the earth regardless of who won the Revolutionary War. he could have been a world-class cricket player - the same drive would have been in him. put him on a horse and he would have rode to victory time and again. so, son, it's quite silly to rack your brain thinking what the world would have been like had we lost the War. for a legend like Dean Houston - the path would have been different, but the destination all the same.

...greatness.

[wishbone]

I think that if the British won, they would have taken a step back to examine themselves at length and would have discovered that they really do need to be better people. Kind of like that episode of Who's the Boss when that stupid blonde kid acted gay.

[sachmo71]

Ben Franklin still would have been a lady killer.

England could not hold its interests in the colonies, the rest of the empire, and hold off France at the same time. Something would have to give. My thought would be that eventually, America would have existed, especially thinking that the alternative would be the English monarchy not viewing the colonies as a resource factory ripe for the picking and letting the colonists exists in relative autonomy. Yeah, right.

[gottimd]

The Drunken Clam's been taken over by a bunch of lousy limey tea-suckin' British bastards!

[mhass]

We can assume the orthodontic industry would be vastly different.

[Coder]

damn that's deep HA... sniffles

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by mhass

We can assume the orthodontic industry would be vastly different.

cash COW!

[Greyroofoo]

The French Revolution probably would not have happened, or at least been at a later date.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Ziggy sends Sam Beckett on his most ambitious mission yet: Defeating the crumpet-eating bastards by leading the American troops to victory while living in the body of a very buff gun-toting Martha Washington.

You're my boy, blue.

Though I would have said:

"Ziggy says that you're here to..."

[ISiddiqui]

What's with the cricket stuff? You all know it'd be soccer that'd be the national game... that's right! Bow down to great American sports star, Morton Anderson (he changed citizenship... shaddup)!

[JPhillips]

One of the What If? books tackles this question. That essay argues that England would have shortly made the US a commonwealth. The most glaring change for the US would have been the outlawing of slavery throughout the commonwealth. The US would have gradually gained more and more freedom from the UK much along the course of Canada.

The big historical changes would include no War of 1812, no Civil War, no 19th century slavery and lingering racial problems, a quick end to WW1 with the US entering the war with the UK, and no WW2 because of the quick defeat of Germany in WW1.

I think the twentieth century predictions are very weak, but the commonwealth idea could have happened and could have saved the UK a lot of headaches.

[vtbub]

The British winning the War of the Rebels leads to two significant events:

1. The French Revolution still happens in 1791, and it scares the crap out of London. The English regime has treated those who remain loyal extremely well as industry spreads across the northern sea board. Subtle changes in tax policy, combined with stark reminders to those on the fence on loyalty will keep mouths shut.

That changes by 1800 when His Majesty concedes on the key issue of taxation without representation, a small delegation from North America will stand in Parliament, elected by white property owners.

2. This arrangement goes on about 20-30 years, when the South rebels again and the Civil War starts. After 5-7 years of horrific fighting, the Deep South gets her independence, with help from Spain, and seperates from her industrial neighbors from the north.

By 1850, the remaining Northern Colonies, including Canada, are given autonomy in exchange for the Crown remaining head of state. By 1870, Eastern Canada and the Northern US are granted Dominonship, in exchange for keeping Queen Victoria head of state. A deal that exists to this day.

The Confederacy is alive and well, but the major force on the continent is Mexico, granted her freedom in 1856, she is the superpower strecthing from the Yucatan to Alaska.



Feel free to shred.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by weinstein7

This is a common belief (at least amongst Europeans, particularly German speakers), but it's not true. I had an argument about this with a German friend a couple of years ago, so I did a little research. Basically what happened was there was a vote to print laws in German AS WELL as English, in deference to the large German-speaking population in Pennsylvania. However, the measure failed. I believe this happened in the 1790s, but I'm not 100% sure on that. Also, technically the US does not have an official language. It's de facto English, but not de jure, as the kids say.

You can find info on this all over the web, but this was the top of the page when I did a google search.

http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa010820a.htm

I live in an area surrounded by an Amish settlement, and occasionally i will ride the bus to work with a bunch of Amish. Well, I didnt realize that they still spoke Olde German amongst each other, I just thought they had weird accents. But i saw something the other day about how only the elders really know the German well anymore, and its just about dying out.

[OldGiants]

We'd simply be Baja Canada.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by vtbub

That changes by 1800 when His Majesty concedes on the key issue of taxation without representation, a small delegation from North America will stand in Parliament, elected by white property owners.

That's part of the key issue. The key issue was that people in the colonies were not given the rights that Englishmen in England were given. They were under the prerogative of the King. The Glorious Revolution of 100 years prior made Parliament the power broker in England. However, because of a legal distinction (uninhabited vs. conquered territory), the King was the power broker in the colonies.

[vtbub]

Given the chioce between giving the Colonists that power or facing a second war, do you think the King would concede?

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

of course he would have been born. Dean Houston is more than just a man who put on a helmet and cleats and won championships. was freedom ever born? no, it's just something that is. were bravery and the will to rise above the limitations of every man things that were created? no - these are feelings that have existed always in one form or another. they hang around in the air, waiting patiently, eons even, until they're discovered.

man is responsible for many great things - steam-powered boat, the written word, artwork of all types, architecture that seemingly touch the sky. but we didn't corner the market on some things. no, things like consistently standing tall in the face of your opposition. inspiring others to win. carrying your fellow teammates on your back to game winning drives year after year, being a humble role-model in the midst of your achievements. no, these things were with us since the time the sun first rose over the mountains and hills. yes, we've created many things. but you can't create winners.

you simply have to be one.

Dean Houston, to put it simply, would have walked the earth regardless of who won the Revolutionary War. he could have been a world-class cricket player - the same drive would have been in him. put him on a horse and he would have rode to victory time and again. so, son, it's quite silly to rack your brain thinking what the world would have been like had we lost the War. for a legend like Dean Houston - the path would have been different, but the destination all the same.

...greatness.

ROFL

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by vtbub

Given the chioce between giving the Colonists that power or facing a second war, do you think the King would concede?

Second war? I'm talking about what happened in 1776. Anyway, taxation without representation was only the slogan. There were other things behind it that simply allowing Americans in Parliament would not fix.

[Marc Vaughan]

Anyone interested in this type of thing could do worse than look into some "Harry Turtledove" books, they're all based on these sort of hyperthetical situation (I read them because I like the 'idea' - but will warn you I think he could definitely improve as an author).

[Coder]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Anyone interested in this type of thing could do worse than look into some "Harry Turtledove" books, they're all based on these sort of hyperthetical situation (I read them because I like the 'idea' - but will warn you I think he could definitely improve as an author).

I've read two of his books.. first the "Guns of the South"-novel which was entertaining Sci-Fi meets history and timetravel kind of thing, but then I went on to read "How Few Remain" and found it to be very good.

I've yet to read his 4-book series starting with WWI but based on the aftermath of "How Few Remain", but really recommend HFR if you're into alternate history..

[Darkiller]

Originally Posted by vtbub

The British winning the War of the Rebels leads to two significant events:

1. The French Revolution still happens in 1791, and it scares the crap out of London.

French Revolution happened in 1789.
It's quite an important date, not only in France, but for all of Europe because it dramatically changed the shape-up of the continent's monarchies.

[vtbub]

Originally Posted by Darkiller

French Revolution happened in 1789.
It's quite an important date, not only in France, but for all of Europe because it dramatically changed the shape-up of the continent's monarchies.

Correction noted.

Thanks.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by vtbub

The British winning the War of the Rebels leads to two significant events:

1. The French Revolution still happens in 1791, and it scares the crap out of London. The English regime has treated those who remain loyal extremely well as industry spreads across the northern sea board. Subtle changes in tax policy, combined with stark reminders to those on the fence on loyalty will keep mouths shut.

That changes by 1800 when His Majesty concedes on the key issue of taxation without representation, a small delegation from North America will stand in Parliament, elected by white property owners.

2. This arrangement goes on about 20-30 years, when the South rebels again and the Civil War starts. After 5-7 years of horrific fighting, the Deep South gets her independence, with help from Spain, and seperates from her industrial neighbors from the north.

You assume that the Industrial British take the same view of slavery. I think that is a big if given Industry = textiles in the first half of the 19th century.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by nfg22

Only from simfanatics would we think of wars being resimmed. I love it...and maybe dean houston wouldnt have been born?

Speaking of which there's a board game who's name I fail to recall totally which is basically "Civilisation" but with real world events taking place in a pre-programmed manner on certain dates.

You take over a country in a realistic situation at a set date and then certain events (revolutions, key figures emerging, industrial changes etc.) occur realistically and affect the control of the board.

Its a really cool game, drat my failing senility ... I can't recall its name.

[Marc Vaughan]

PS> And yes if I had a spare 12 months kicking around I'd find out its name, grab a copy off ebay, play it again, and finally convert it into a PC game ....

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Anyone interested in this type of thing could do worse than look into some "Harry Turtledove" books, they're all based on these sort of hyperthetical situation (I read them because I like the 'idea' - but will warn you I think he could definitely improve as an author).

He has some really solid ideas. Then he throws in some very campy stuff, and a few sex scenes for absolutely no reason.


EDIT: And I also have to question whether the British would have outlawed slavery so quickly. I think they would have continued to turn a blind eye to American slavery, as the emphasis would have been getting the product to the market. Unfortunately, slaves were an attractive labor source until the birth of labor saving machines.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Darkiller

French Revolution happened in 1789.
It's quite an important date, not only in France, but for all of Europe because it dramatically changed the shape-up of the continent's monarchies.

Well the French Revolution is very complicated and one can say there are many different points where the date can be set as to the 'dramatic change'. 1789 was the storming of the Bastille, but the government that was left was more of a Constitutional Monarchy akin to England. It wasn't until 1792 when the monarchy was abolished. That later event dramatically changed the shape of the continent's monarchies. The former, I'd argue, really did not, except in so far as it led to the latter.

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

EDIT: And I also have to question whether the British would have outlawed slavery so quickly. I think they would have continued to turn a blind eye to American slavery, as the emphasis would have been getting the product to the market. Unfortunately, slaves were an attractive labor source until the birth of labor saving machines.

Well, IRL Britain outlawed slavery around 1820, largely on moral grounds as they were still making a tidy profit on the slave trade at the time. I think it was assumed that that moral judgement would still stand.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Coder

I've read two of his books.. first the "Guns of the South"-novel which was entertaining Sci-Fi meets history and timetravel kind of thing, but then I went on to read "How Few Remain" and found it to be very good.

I've yet to read his 4-book series starting with WWI but based on the aftermath of "How Few Remain", but really recommend HFR if you're into alternate history..

Or watch Sliders

SI