Rap Concerts: Is there a bigger waste of money?

[Karlifornia]

Ok, I've been bothered by this for quite some time, but watching 50 Cent on an MTV Awards replay has inspired me to put my thoughts into writing...or typing...whatever.

How do people not fall asleep at rap concerts? I mean, besides the overcranked bass vibrations that make you infertile. All they do is rap over a recording of their album. I guess sometimes there's a DJ, but usually all he's there for is to yell things at the right time and make the songs bleed into each other. So, it's basically like paying $65 to go a gigantic nightclub. Is there any real room for improvisation? You never know what could happen during every song at a Built To Spill show, but do any rappers improv? I imagine free-styling happens every so often.... What's the fun? Seeing which rapper has the biggest towel-waving entourage on stage? Do people go to get laid? Can someone who goes to a lot of hip-hop/rap shows tell me what constitutes paying big $$$ to go to a show?

I suppose they're better than live performances by Techno artists....

[sovereignstar]

What'd you do with Ksyrup?

[Joe]

people go to see how many people will get shot. its well worth the price of admission.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Apparently youve never seen Common perform, many rap artists put on good shows 50 cent obviously is not one of them. Rap and over generalization seem to go hand in hand around here.

[rexallllsc]

I don't really listen to much of the genre, but I worked a few rap shows when I was younger as a part of the sound crew - typically there were about 3 or 4 guys talking over each other at the same time. It was no good.

I could see a freestyle rap show being pretty awesome, however.

[Mustang]

You asked...

[Joe]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

Apparently youve never seen Common perform,

We need another thread on why rappers have such stupid names.

[Karlifornia]

Sorry-You can excuse The Roots from my rant. They play instruments, make awesome music, and sound really good live.

[DeToxRox]

I saw Sage Francis and that ruled. Granted it was more like a hardcore show with sing a longs and stage diving but it was amazing.

"I like 99 rappers but Jay-Z ain't one"

[KWhit]

Rap sucks.

[Daimyo]

I saw Wyclef live at a very small show once when he came to my college... almost the whole show was freestyle and non-album stuff. He did a few songs off the album because people kept yelling for them, but he made it pretty clear he'd rather do other stuff. I think he commented several times "If you just want to hear that, why not stay home and listen to the CD."

[Daimyo]

DOLA, and i think you're confusing bad music for rap. Every genre has its pre-packaged, aimed at suburban teenagers, McActs and I'm sure they all suck in concert. Can you imagine a Brittany Spears concert being any better?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

What'd you do with Ksyrup?

What'd I do now?

[Young Drachma]

Wait, this feels like deja vu.

Blah blah rap is bad. Blah blah. Gunshots, blah blah. Except for that one rapper. What's his name. Blah. I like him a lot. But the rest of them are the reason that the inner cities are so violent. Blah blah. Nevermind that largely it's white suburban kids buying the stuff. Yadda Yadda.

Now that country, that's some wholesome music. Ugh.

If you don't like a particular genre or group, don't listen. Next subject...

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by RadioFriendlyUnitShifter

Ok, I've been bothered by this for quite some time, but watching 50 Cent on an MTV Awards replay has inspired me to put my thoughts into writing...or typing...whatever.

How do people not fall asleep at rap concerts? I mean, besides the overcranked bass vibrations that make you infertile. All they do is rap over a recording of their album. I guess sometimes there's a DJ, but usually all he's there for is to yell things at the right time and make the songs bleed into each other. So, it's basically like paying $65 to go a gigantic nightclub. Is there any real room for improvisation? You never know what could happen during every song at a Built To Spill show, but do any rappers improv? I imagine free-styling happens every so often.... What's the fun? Seeing which rapper has the biggest towel-waving entourage on stage? Do people go to get laid? Can someone who goes to a lot of hip-hop/rap shows tell me what constitutes paying big $$$ to go to a show?

I suppose they're better than live performances by Techno artists....

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

If you don't like a particular genre or group, don't listen.

Kinda hard to completely avoid it when you can hear it from cars for a two miles radius.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Kinda hard to completely avoid it when you can hear it from cars for a two miles radius.

ziiiiing

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Kinda hard to completely avoid it when you can hear it from cars for a two miles radius.

I'm glad I am not that jaded to different forms of music. I remember people blasting heavy metal away from the 70 to the late 80's and that never seemed to be much of a problem.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by RadioFriendlyUnitShifter

Ok, I've been bothered by this for quite some time, but watching 50 Cent on an MTV Awards replay has inspired me to put my thoughts into writing...or typing...whatever.

How do people not fall asleep at rap concerts? I mean, besides the overcranked bass vibrations that make you infertile. All they do is rap over a recording of their album. I guess sometimes there's a DJ, but usually all he's there for is to yell things at the right time and make the songs bleed into each other. So, it's basically like paying $65 to go a gigantic nightclub. Is there any real room for improvisation? You never know what could happen during every song at a Built To Spill show, but do any rappers improv? I imagine free-styling happens every so often.... What's the fun? Seeing which rapper has the biggest towel-waving entourage on stage? Do people go to get laid? Can someone who goes to a lot of hip-hop/rap shows tell me what constitutes paying big $$$ to go to a show?

I suppose they're better than live performances by Techno artists....

By the way, I don't have the answer for you since I have never been to a concert in my life. The idea of being in a place with screaming maniacs while seeing a performer go tiredly through their songs that sounds nothing like the CD (or record in the past) never did interest me. Plus I just darn hate large crowds in general.

[Eilim]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

I'm glad I am not that jaded to different forms of music. I remember people blasting heavy metal away from the 70 to the late 80's and that never seemed to be much of a problem.

Sorry, but umm... I can't agree. This happens with pretty much every genre of music that gains popularity. I remember the same sort of arguments over heavy metal, heck even fans of the different sub-genres saying these same things during the 80s.

Where in the past it (IMO) was more of a generation/age based bias with music, with the quicker turnover of whats "in" its become more genre based arguments now. Wait to the next new wave of music and we'll see the complaints about it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

...and that never seemed to be much of a problem.

Likely because it was at least occasionally worth hearing at worst.
Today on the other hand ...

And here again, somebody seems to have labeled me just a bit off the mark,
I'd bet I've got more diverse musical taste than 1/2 the people here.

Let's see, in the past 3-4 days, I've split time between AC, Country, Southern Rock, Rock (newer), new Metal (albeit from a classic artist), 80's metal, bluegrass, Standards, and had a helluva time listening again to a cheapo bin CD with live tracks from The Rat Pack.

And less than 20 feet away are a lot of old cassettes that still need filing & organizing that includes everything Prince recorded from '79 thru '84, Sugar Hill Gang, Gap Band, Lakeside, Eddy Grant ... in the same pile with Loverboy, Saxon, Ricky Skaggs, and Tennessee Ernie Ford.

Oh yeah, there's stuff both old & new I don't like & would sooner hear a dog bark than listen to ... but I dare say it's a little broader than you tried to give me credit for.

[Ksyrup]

On the subject of loud music from cars, it's not the music that is the problem (for me, anyway), it's the fact that the entire block vibrates from the bass thumping that is unacceptable to me. You're not going to stop people from playing loud music, but the thumping bass is ridiculous, IMO.

On Tuesday, I think it was, there was a guy 3 cars behind me whose bass was so loud, the CD case that was sitting on the passenger seat of my car kept sliding, little by little, down the seat every time the bass thumped. My rearview mirrors were shaking!

I play my music incredibly loud, but I hardly ever have the windows open. Not that it matters, as I play it so loud, you can still hear it fairly well with the windows up, but at least I'm trying to be accomodating about it...

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

I'm glad I am not that jaded to different forms of music. I remember people blasting heavy metal away from the 70 to the late 80's and that never seemed to be much of a problem.

Glad someone pointed this out, I started to, but...figured it wasn't worth the trouble.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

On the subject of loud music from cars, it's not the music that is the problem (for me, anyway), it's the fact that the entire block vibrates from the bass thumping that is unacceptable to me. You're not going to stop people from playing loud music, but the thumping bass is ridiculous, IMO.

On Tuesday, I think it was, there was a guy 3 cars behind me whose bass was so loud, the CD case that was sitting on the passenger seat of my car kept sliding, little by little, down the seat every time the bass thumped. My rearview mirrors were shaking!

I play my music incredibly loud, but I hardly ever have the windows open. Not that it matters, as I play it so loud, you can still hear it fairly well with the windows up, but at least I'm trying to be accomodating about it...

It's surely obnxious, but..that'd probably happen regardless and seems more to do with strides in technology than anything else honestly.

[RendeR]

As someone else stated, Rap sucks. I have a hard time accepting that it even rates as music. its complete and utter crap.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by RendeR

As someone else stated, Rap sucks. I have a hard time accepting that it even rates as music. its complete and utter crap.

What is this 1983?

I think it's been proven over a long period of time that it is a viable form of music.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

What is this 1983?

I think it's been proven over a long period of time that it is a viable form of music.

Horseshit.


Music used to require a quality voice, or a talent to play an instrument. Rap requires nothing more than a big mouth and a buddy to crank up the electronica Bass to unhear of levels. There is nothing viable about creating a genre where the talent requirement actually goes down from year to year.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Horseshit.


Music used to require a quality voice, or a talent to play an instrument. Rap requires nothing more than a big mouth and a buddy to crank up the electronica Bass to unhear of levels. There is nothing viable about creating a genre where the talent requirement actually goes down from year to year.

uh, ok.

just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't viable

I can't say that I'm a huge rap fan but I can recognize that it's very popular.

You're arguement is dated and frankly garbage.

[RendeR]

Doesn't make me wrong, just makes your opinion of my opinion what it is.

[Karlifornia]

It's not the music that bugs me.It's the fact that the live shows seem so....unnecessary

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Doesn't make me wrong, just makes your opinion of my opinion what it is.

I have no idea what that means.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Horseshit.


Music used to require a quality voice, or a talent to play an instrument. Rap requires nothing more than a big mouth and a buddy to crank up the electronica Bass to unhear of levels. There is nothing viable about creating a genre where the talent requirement actually goes down from year to year.

Good thing we have the hip-hop expert here to set us all straight. Do tell us, is this your analysis for hours and hours of listening to hip-hop? Or are you just annoyed because some hip-hopper wanna be stole your girl in 8th grade?

And don't give me that, "I don't have to listen to a genre to know it's shit." line because that's perfectly fine. But your position can be summarized by essentially making retread points that have obviously been defeated over the past decade -given the mainstream acceptance of hip-hop as pop music - it's obvious that you're either a) bitter and b) annoyed beyond belief and feel the need to come here and rouse the old-timers who are going to hate everything that's not their favourite form of music and irritate the eclectic modern music lovers who can appreciate forms of music that - while not their favourite - have just as much music value as others.

[rexallllsc]

For the most part, it's a pretty worthless genre, IMO. Very shallow, promoting image over all else, including substance.

[Young Drachma]

Growing up, I hated rap. I couldn't stand it. Most of my problem was associated largely with the fact that it had yet to get the mainstream acceptance that it has now and that also, it was assumed that if you were young and black, that you liked it. So I was turned off from it.

I never got into it all through high school. As a kid, I listened to classical music. Mainly because it was the only stuff I could stomach. Then pop and then lots of hard rock and eventually alternative.

As I got into my older teens, I branched out. Latin Rock, other obscure forms of music, mostly on the fringes of alternative and whatever. Then I left home and after I joined the Air Force, I got into country. Mainly because I worked in an office for a while and all that was on the radio EVERYDAY was country. And in Wichita Falls, TX at the time, this one country station played the same songs in the same order everyday. Sometime you'd hear the same song 2 or 3 times a day. So naturally, I learned the words fast.

From there, I explored all sorts of random genres. Some obviously I prefer over others and it all depends on my mood.

When I got stationed in Southern Illinois, I met some really cool guys and well, they always listened to hip-hop. They were the opposite of me, they liked hip-hop and then they liked other forms but hip-hop was their staple where my staple was obviously alt. rock. Well, I eventually started listening to this and that.

And before I knew it, the bug bit me. So I basically had to go backwards and started gradually getting into stuff that I'd ignored all through my teen years and realized what I'd missed out on.

I think that having played in band from 3rd grade all the way past high school probably helped my appreciation of music too, but often times I appreciate listening to melodies or other times beats or sometimes, just lyrics of songs.

That said, having the most eclectic music collection of anyone I know - and I know some pretty wacky people - I realize that most people just like what they like. But I'm not sure it gives you a whole lot of ground to deride other forms of music, even if you think it's shit.

Not that it'll stop people or shouldn't. But it's hard to really explain liking a particular genre, because if you're not into it or aren't open to that, it's difficult to really grasp it. That's just all there is to it.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

For the most part, it's a pretty worthless genre, IMO. Very shallow, promoting image over all else, including substance.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

For the most part, it's a pretty worthless genre, IMO. Very shallow, promoting image over all else, including substance.

DING DING DING DING: We HAVE a winner!

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Enlighten me.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Good thing we have the hip-hop expert here to set us all straight. Do tell us, is this your analysis for hours and hours of listening to hip-hop? Or are you just annoyed because some hip-hopper wanna be stole your girl in 8th grade?

And don't give me that, "I don't have to listen to a genre to know it's shit." line because that's perfectly fine. But your position can be summarized by essentially making retread points that have obviously been defeated over the past decade -given the mainstream acceptance of hip-hop as pop music - it's obvious that you're either a) bitter and b) annoyed beyond belief and feel the need to come here and rouse the old-timers who are going to hate everything that's not their favourite form of music and irritate the eclectic modern music lovers who can appreciate forms of music that - while not their favourite - have just as much music value as others.

no, ReneR is correct, it's not a good genre of music. i'm in the music industry, and have a better grasp/appreciation over different genre's than your average person. sure, it has it's premier artists that elevate it to the next level, but every genre has a "must-hear" artist, so this is no different. but rap is not a good genre, it went downhill once P Diddy came into the picture in the mid-90s. he made the genre about being rich and put a premium on image (expensive cars, clothes and bitches and hoes). tell me again why i want to hear Biggie rap about his mansions and Rolex watches?

and live, rap is not a trail blazer. it's about the visual element, than the music experience - how many niggas in your entourage can you have onstage? how many background dancers can you have? no improv. you're talking about people who *aren't* musicians or have any knowledge of music other than what they can rap over, they just wanna get onstage and then go fuck their bitches, they're not interested in their place in music history and establishing a legacy. they want to make a name for themself so they can get into movies and become a multi-media brand.

[Raiders Army]

Milo: You think you are so fucking cool, don't you? You think you are so fucking cool. But just once, I would like to hear you scream in pain...
Joe Hallenbeck: Play some rap music.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

That said, having the most eclectic music collection of anyone I know - and I know some pretty wacky people - I realize that most people just like what they like.

That's basically where I am on this issue. When you boil it down to its essence, I just have different priorities for the music I like than what you'll find with the types of music I don't like. For me, the music has to be original, performed by musicians, and include compelling riffs and/or melodies for me to like it. If it's heavy, the riffs matter more than the melodies; if it's more mellow, vice versa. And if it's King's X, it's got the whole ball of wax...

I appreciate rap as an art form, but like R&B and other genres, it prioritizes the individual over the music, and I'm not as interested in personalities as much as the music. And of course, coupled with the lack of original performed music and the general subject matter, there's just nothing to pull me in as a listener. I actually like it when rap is used within rock in bits and pieces - Cupid is Dead by Extreme, Smoke Baby by Hawksley Workman, and a bunch of 24/7 Spyz stuff come to mind - but as a straight-up genre... no thanks.

From a pure music perspective, I don't give it much respect; as an unquestionably popular art form, I respect it for what it is.

[Raiders Army]

Dola, and there are a shitload of great quotes from that movie.

[duckman]

Jimmy Dix: "Hi, you're nobody."

Joe Hallenbeck: "Shhh, don't tell anyone."

[Antmeister]

For those that don't like rap, I will respect your opinion, however I also believe it is because most of you are only responding to what forms of rap is popular today. It seems what get the most airplay is what you guys seem to be against and I understand that. I just find it amazing hearing that all rappers have no talent (singing ability, etc). Yes some of them do focus on themselves and trying to establish a negative image. But that's in a number of genres. That is not exclusive to rap.


I wonder if you guys heard Bone, Thugs and Harmony, Outkast, Boogie Down Productions or a number or some other acts who get little air play. The first two do have singing ability and the last one is an old school rapper who focused on race relations and education. And then people tend to forget that rap is sprinkled in every other genre. Nelly did semi-country song which is quite good. A lot of it merges with R&B, and rap/metal is what Linkin Park is all about. So if you are talking about how trashy it is, you are hating a lot of other music right now.

As far as HellAtlantic's assertion that it is going downhill because of Diddy. I just want to say that gangsta rap is what pretty much hurt the industry with NWA. While the first album opened people's eyes to problems in the inner city, the following albums become more about self absorption. And I still don't think it is going downhill because I have seen how far it has come when most people thought it was just a fad that would die soon.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

That's basically where I am on this issue. When you boil it down to its essence, I just have different priorities for the music I like than what you'll find with the types of music I don't like. For me, the music has to be original, performed by musicians, and include compelling riffs and/or melodies for me to like it. If it's heavy, the riffs matter more than the melodies; if it's more mellow, vice versa. And if it's King's X, it's got the whole ball of wax...

I appreciate rap as an art form, but like R&B and other genres, it prioritizes the individual over the music, and I'm not as interested in personalities as much as the music. And of course, coupled with the lack of original performed music and the general subject matter, there's just nothing to pull me in as a listener. I actually like it when rap is used within rock in bits and pieces - Cupid is Dead by Extreme, Smoke Baby by Hawksley Workman, and a bunch of 24/7 Spyz stuff come to mind - but as a straight-up genre... no thanks.

From a pure music perspective, I don't give it much respect; as an unquestionably popular art form, I respect it for what it is.

Honestly, if rap/rock or whatever never came to being, I don't know that my interest in rap would'e been grown much. Even though there isn't much of it out there that's all that great, I think I like rap a lot more that way..because I like rock so much.

That said, I have to admit that I don't like much rap myself. And what I do like, it's confined in very basic elements of particular parts of the songs - rather than when I enjoy other music or whatever - where I can play them and appreciate all of it.

I think I just have a hard time with people completely dismissing a genre..but none of what I'm seeing here is all that off the wall or even particular wrong related to the genre as a whole, as most fans with a shread of intelligent would readily admit.

Probably because I'm judging debate all weekend that I'm getting myself all ready to be contrarian.

Peace, homies.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

And I still don't think it is going downhill because I have seen how far it has come when most people thought it was just a fad that would die soon.

Agreed. For a fad, it's gone farther than anyone would've ever predicted and it's not going anywhere - as it's constantly absorbed into other forms of music - much to the ire of many. But...that's the reality.

[Anthony]

incorrect Ant. first of all, rap wasn't popular back then when NWA was around. secondly, they didn't glorify thug life. they still rapped as part of a social commentary, as Public Enemy did. those two acts brought a more militant aspect to the music, but at that point in music history rap wasn't established yet, thus, it couldn't have been going downhill because it wasn't even at its peak yet. early 90's hip hop was the peak of rap as an art form. Tribe Called Quest. House of Pain. Wu Tang. Nice and Smooth. Gang Starr. after these acts the quality went sour. P Diddy is everything that is wrong with the industry. Dr Dre/Snoop came around the mid 90's and glorified drug use, taking the genre in yet another negative direction. so figure 94, maaaaybe 95 as the last year rap was quality. biggie broke onto the scene in late '94, i was a junior in high school when he came out with "Ready To Die".

[MJ4H]

Well I guess I'll weigh in with my opinion. I really don't think anyone cares about my opinion, but since I spend a good part of my life thinking about things like this and teaching about things like this, I feel I should respond in some way.

Is rap real music? Of course. In every sense of the word, rap is music.

Is rap good music? Totally subjective. Just like any other genre.

Has a lot of poor quality music been put out in this genre? Absolutely. And I mean poor quality in the most objective sense of the term I can. Meaning, repetitive, uncreative, no chances taken, etc. Now, having said this, I think that just means there is tremendous potential for the genre that is totally unexplored. I don't think there is as much innovation in this genre as there could be, so there is a lot of room for improvement on what is already out there.

Do I like rap music? Not really, no. There has been some that I have moderately enjoyed, but I like almost any other genre better.

Would I enjoy going to a rap concert? No. Never, never, never. I also would not go to many other concerts with amplification on the instruments. I like concerts involving the Chicago Symphony Orchestra or the Cavaliers Drum and Bugle Corps. Not much into other concerts. That's just me.

I think it is important for people to realize that it is ok to like poor quality music, in a similar way that many people enjoy acknowledged bad movies. You don't have to sit and analyze music (or movies) in the way they are technically created, composed, produced, etc. while watching them and then only enjoy them if they are of high quality in those areas. Music, and movies, even if not daring, creative, original, well-crafted, can touch a person in ways others cannot understand. It is this personal connection that makes musical experiences unique for every one. I don't think it is a very good practice to belittle or judge others based on what music touches or moves them. There is a LOT of bad music I love to listen to. I'm not really sure why, but I know that technically speaking, some of the music I listen to is not original, well-crafted, anything that one could point to to say it is just high quality music. But I still like it (and note that just because I like it doesn't mean it is good).

Maybe it is just a difference in opinion of how one defines good music. I strongly disagree with liking something = good music.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

incorrect Ant. first of all, rap wasn't popular back then when NWA was around. secondly, they didn't glorify thug life. they still rapped as part of a social commentary, as Public Enemy did. those two acts brought a more militant aspect to the music, but at that point in music history rap wasn't established yet, thus, it couldn't have been going downhill because it wasn't even at its peak yet. early 90's hip hop was the peak of rap as an art form. Tribe Called Quest. House of Pain. Wu Tang. Nice and Smooth. Gang Starr. after these acts the quality went sour. P Diddy is everything that is wrong with the industry. Dr Dre/Snoop came around the mid 90's and glorified drug use, taking the genre in yet another negative direction. so figure 94, maaaaybe 95 as the last year rap was quality. biggie broke onto the scene in late '94, i was a junior in high school when he came out with "Ready To Die".

I guess we can agree to disagree then. While rap has many more acts by the time Diddy came around, rap was very much popular in the late 80's. Do you don't think Run DMC, the Beastie Boys, LL Cool J, Kool Moe Dee, Whoudini and a number of others were just underground performers?

Rap was very popular back then and Run DMC had a pretty long career compared to a lot of rappers today.

And maybe I am reading your post incorrectly, but I don't think it peaked since it has grown even more in popularity. Unless you mean, it has hit it's peak in terms of quality. If that the case, I only disagree to a point. When NWA came around, it gave both a light and a darkness to the industry. The positive is that a number of people now saw rap as a way to open up and talk about social problem. The bad is that it also put others in the mindset that rap was all about gangs and police bashing. By the time Diddy hit the scene, gangsta rap was already huge and social commentary was already out the window. I mean c'mon 2 Live Crew (Me So Horny) and Naughty by Nature (You Down with O.P.P.) are great examples of this and this was long before Diddy.

[Anthony]

rap was already used for social commentary prior to NWA. Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five were rapping about the urban scene as far back as the early 80's. NWA/Public Enemey, to reiterate, simply brought a more aggressive approach, a more militant vibe to the genre by the late 80's, early 90s.

and, yes, i meant rap hit it's peak in terms of quality when those acts i mentioned in my previous post were around.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

rap was already used for social commentary prior to NWA. Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five were rapping about the urban scene as far back as the early 80's. NWA/Public Enemey, to reiterate, simply brought a more aggressive approach, a more militant vibe to the genre by the late 80's, early 90s.

and, yes, i meant rap hit it's peak in terms of quality when those acts i mentioned in my previous post were around.

You know what...fine, but could you tell me who this person is. I know it's a board member, but I don't know who.