What would make you leave the church

[Easy Mac]

Obviously, I think this thread probably won't stay healthy or productive, but I need to get this off of my chest. But the basic premise remains, what would have to happen/be said to make you leave the church.

I was sitting in church today (Catholic for reference), and the priest is giving him homily (sermon), and the whole time, instead of relating it to any of the previous readings we had during church, he uses the time to talk about abortion. He does the usual, says its a sin, killing a life... He then moves on to the recent Supreme Court decision about assisted suicide. He proceeds to have no idea if it was a law that allowed it or banned it, only that the SC decided to allow it. He said this is the murder of innocent people. He then said it was the same as the Terri Schiavo case, and that people should be kept alive at all costs. Given my political leanings, I start to squirm a little, but its ok, whatever.

Then, he decides to connect all of this to eugenics, and says we are turning into Nazi Germany. He said Hitler had a machine of death, and that all of this is just a progression into Germany. Needless to say, this bothered me a tad. I tend to believe that Nazi Germany and this are absolutely unrelated, the deaths involved nowhere near equitable. He continues on all of this for about 20 minutes, continuing to reference Hitler, but never once referencing the Bible, saying that the people who perpetrate these things will have the same fate as the Nazis. At the end of the homily, I just couldn't take it anymore and went outside to get a breath.

I came back in after about 5 minutes and went back to doing mass, calmed a little, but not completely. I didn't bother to put my offering in the tray, there is no way that church is getting any money after this. When I went up for communion, I went up there, crossed myself and walked right past the priest. I nearly dropped an FU, but I relented. I'm not entirely sure I feel comfortable attending church there anymore. The other priests are nice there, but I just felt that this priest went completely beyond what it means to be a priest.

This is my problem. I don't think its the job of the church to be involved in politics. That's the one thing that would make me leave the church, actually just quit. I don't have a problem with faith, but I felt the connections the priest made, never once referencing the Bible, went far beyond anything a priest should do. I understand that faith and politics are intertwined, but there is still a line that shouldn't be crossed, and we all realize this. I dunno, is this reason enough to leave the church, or just to go to a different church? Would you have offered your money to such a person? I just think he's a vile human being myself.

Just had to get this off my chest.

[vtbub]

While that is the most extreme thing I have heard, politics drove my wife out of the Catholic Church.

[Greyroofoo]

This is pretty much the reason that churches should lose their tax-exempt status

[albionmoonlight]

If the sermon went too far into political advocacy, then the church could be in danger of losing its tax-exempt status. Though that is only theoretical because this administration would never pull the plug on a chuch for being too Republican.

As to your other question, it sounds kind of cheesy, but you need to look into your heart. I think, personally, that it is great that you are engaged enough in your faith to actually listen to what the Priest says and not just go to church out of a vague sense of obligation and then tune out whatever is said there for 60 minutes.

I see no problem in your looking for other Catholic churches in the area, or even starting to explore other faiths (I'm a Catholic married to an Episcopalian, so I can certainly recommend the Episcopal church as a possible "first step" if you want to take exploration that way.)

Churches having rules and positions is, ultimately a good thing. One has to beleive in something, IMO, in order to be a church. Accordingly, I am not recommending that one leave a church every time there is a disagreement until you end up with the Unitarians. I, am however, saying that challening and exploring one's faith and the faith traditions of others is very rewarding.

You are not, IMO, doing anyone any favors by sitting in your current church and stewing. You are neither providing or receiving fellowship. That's part of why I say go exploring a little bit.

Also, you may want to talk this over a bit with a Catholic priest that you know and trust. He may be able to give you a bit more insight than I can.

Finally, I set the over/under on bannings that come as a direct result of this thread talking about religion and abortion at 2.*

*If Bubba Wheels shows up, these odds are immediately taken off the table.

[Shkspr]

Hunh. Just from the thread title I thought, "Well, passing the collection plate around during Mass to raise donations for a pro-life political lobby was the straw that made me stop attending Caholic services."

I think that priests SHOULD teach that abortion is a sin, and counsel Catholics not to do it...but the drive to use church time and resources to change secular law strikes me as a tacit acknowledgement on the part of the clergy that sermonizing and the teaching of the faith is doomed to failure. When the Church replaces "Abortion is a sin against God and yourself" with "Abortion is a class I felony punishable by 15-25 years imprisonment", the redeeming message of Christ rings hollow.

[Schmidty]

I think people confuse "The Church" with a personal relationship with God. If a church upsets you, and makes you uncomfortable, leave it. The church isn't the important thing anyway. Traditions of men and "religion" are fleeting, but God is eternal.

For what it's worth, I totally agree that churches and church leaders should stay out of organized politics. But on a personal level, I don't feel that abortion is a political issue, as much as a moral issue.

[Dutch]

Easy Mac,

You go to Church? I thought that based on your own politics that you hated religion. And I don't go to church because I don't trust in man-made interpretations of God despite being a conservative.

Strange world we live in.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

But the basic premise remains, what would have to happen/be said to make you leave the church.

Generally speaking, it's something that would happen whenever the situation become untenable. Whether that's from a conflict in beliefs on a core point(s), or behavior/personalities/whatever within a specific church (lower-case "c" as in location, not "C" as in "the whole brand"), there are situations that really aren't resolved by standing pat.

That may seem like a really vague answer but it's hard to be specific when you're talking about something so personal. I mean, what you might find intolerable might not bother me one whit and vice versa. So all I can do (without personalizing this beyond usefullness) is say it's "when X reaches the point of Y".

I really like the point that albionmoonlight made in his post:

You are not, IMO, doing anyone any favors by sitting in your current church and stewing. You are neither providing or receiving fellowship.

Whenever the situation reaches the point that your unhappiness/ dissatisfaction/pick-a-word overwhelms your ability to receive the benefit of attending the church and/or is an insurmountable to feeling as though you're able to put into the church what you feel is appropriate, then I'd say there's a good chance that it's time to look elsewhere.

You ask a fair & honest question, and I'm kind of sorry that I've got the same expectations for the thread that you do, but at the risk of sounding kinda flip when that's the furthest possible thing from my intention, I feel like the best answer to what you're asking is found between you & God -- those are the only two that really have to be satisfied by the conclusion you reach.

[Warhammer]

I would actually take this up with the Church's pastor. Talk to him about how the sermon was politically motivated, etc., etc.

However, you do need to understand the Church's position on some of these issues. Abortion in the eyes of the church is murder. The same logic for that applies to euthenasia as well. Ending life, is ending life, regardless of the circumstances and is a sin. One thing you can't fault the Church with is consistency, it is VERY consistent in both of these issues.

Eugenics is another matter as well. I am not sure what the exact church teaching on this is, but if I remember correctly, much of it has to do with the human condition.

I would recommend the following:

Get a copy of the current Catechism. This is a wonderful book that outlines the current Church teachings on a wide array of issues. In the one my wife received from her RCIA classes it talked about why the Church holds the beliefs that it does. It also backs most of these up with Biblical references or the teachings of some of the great theologians.

Keep in mind that the Church will border on some current political issues. This is almost impossible not to do, when the government is getting involved with funding for many branches of medicine, we need to remember that we are treading on ethical grounds (which is exactly what the Church teaches, ethics). Therefore, the church may have some sermons that will seem political in nature. Additionally, it is the role of the priest to serve as the shepherd and tend to his flock. That does involve telling us we are wrong, even if we don't feel we are. Remember, religion is not a buffet, however, also realize that many tenants of the Church are not dogma. Dogma is the stuff you really need to accept as truth.

Again, talk to the head pastor at the church. The bit about comparing us to Nazi Germany was a bit much, however, he does have a point about the Eugenics. Whenever you are conducting tests on life, you are pushing the limits on what is ethical, especially if the testing crosses over into babies. Again, every life has value in the eyes of the Church and God, even with flaws. Many times, those flaws are what give us our beauty and value. If I was the priest, I would have specified using Eugenics to produce "Super" or "Designer" babies, which is a form of vanity, rather than Eugenics as a whole, but that is just me.

The other thing you can do, is realize that this is just one priest. If you are true to the faith, I would look at other churches in the area, and attend mass there.

[Warhammer]

One more thing, due to my faith, the only thing that would lead me to leave the church was if church teachings suddenly went against what they have been teaching for 2000 years.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Easy Mac,

You go to Church? I thought that based on your own politics that you hated religion. And I don't go to church because I don't trust in man-made interpretations of God despite being a conservative.

Strange world we live in.

i don't hate it... i'm generally wary of it though. odd since i'm catholic, probably the most organized of them all. i generally follow my own way based on my readings and interpretations of things. i basically am of the same untrusting nature as you. most of the time i'm not even sure what i believe, but running into the people like the priest in my account doesn't help in the matter.

also, i was asking about leaving the Church as a whole, not just what would make you get up and leave. this definitely upset me to a point that i was contemplating for a little while whether it is for me, but i think it may even had made me stronger, making me feel like theres no way people like this should use something such as religion to make their ideas known, especially when they seem to have no idea what they are talking about. i'll probably try a different Catholic church though. Can't do Lutheran, my dad's a minister and i didn't like it. definitely won't go baptist. don't enjoy methodist churches. episcopal and presbyterian churches don't do it for me either.

i mainly went back inside to finish the process, that i wasn't going to let this person get between me and how i felt about my faith as a whole. that was ultimately more important than my faith in a person.

[Dutch]

I'm a catholic by birth and was raised a catholic. But as an adult I found going to prodestant churches more rewarding. If I ever go back to church, it will be protestant. That much I am sure of.

But until I decide I want to go back (if ever), I'll continue to claim catholisism. Because you know what they say about Catholics. There are two kinds. Those that go to church, and those that don't.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I think people confuse "The Church" with a personal relationship with God. If a church upsets you, and makes you uncomfortable, leave it. The church isn't the important thing anyway. Traditions of men and "religion" are fleeting, but God is eternal.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel. Havig a relationship with a church is not at all the same thing with having a relationship with God. Various churches that I've been associated with have bugged me in different ways, occasionally causing me to switch to a different church, but I never have thought it was a big deal.

[ice4277]

I agree that the part about Nazi Germany was probably a little over-the-top.

However, if its the whole abortion/assisted suicide thing that is bothering you, you may want to think about finding a different church, considering that the 'right to life' is one of the main tenets of Catholic faith.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

You can always look at this as a mixed blessing. You say there are other priests, so if they rotate doing the sermons, just use his Sundays as a bye week! If more people did this it would send a message. Pastor X always packs the pews full, while Pastor Y has many empty seats. Eventually Pastor Y is no longer preaching!

I left a church before. It was actually the last church that I was a member of. The pastor was a crook. It was a very small church, so you found out EVERYTHING. One member was laid off by GM, but offered a job in Tennessee. He packed up and moved, but left his truck with the pastor since it would be in good hands. He then planned opn picking it up the next time he came to town. He gave him the keys, because you can trust the pastor, right? So when he came to pick it up the transmission had been blown. He was told that if he didn't get it out of there himself that they would have it towed. To make matters worse, the guy had cosigned for the pastor to get a car, and the pastor didn't pay anything on it. The loan defaulted and the guy's credit was shot. The pastor didn't care. The church collapsed about the same time. Another member of the congregation ran into the pastor shortly after and brought up the car loan thing. The pastor got in his face and threatened him in a manner more befitting a gangster. Last I heard the pastor has a prominent position with Promise Keepers.

The result of all this was that I lost my faith in man, not in God. Man is flawed and there is nothing we can do about this. For every true messenger of God's word there are probably 100 that are in it for themselves...

[MrBigglesworth]

Why didn't the priest mention all of the people we killed/are killing in Iraq? The Pope is against that too, but you never hear about it in sermons in this country. Odd.

A priest's rail against abortion is what drove me out of the catholic church for good. That was the last Sunday mass that I went to. I went to a couple holiday masses after that to appease my mother, but that ended after a couple years.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

...but you never hear about it in sermons in this country. Odd.

Wow, where do you find the time?

The preacher at the church I attend has in fact lamented the loss of life in Iraq, both US and otherwise, on several occasions. He does so in prayer and in context of biblical love for the importance of all life.

I generally agree that churches should avoid political issues in large part, but I also agree with ice4277 here. There are some issues that intersect, and they are typically issues of morality that many churches feel are black and white, right versus wrong. Abortion, the death penalty and assisted suicide would be those kinds of issues.

I frequently disagree with my church on issues such as these, and luckily we have a preacher who is non-divisive and quite skilled in how he presents information and approaches these subjects.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

Wow, where do you find the time?

The preacher at the church I attend has in fact lamented the loss of life in Iraq, both US and otherwise, on several occasions. He does so in prayer and in context of biblical love for the importance of all life.

I generally agree that churches should avoid political issues in large part, but I also agree with ice4277 here. There are some issues that intersect, and they are typically issues of morality that many churches feel are black and white, right versus wrong. Abortion, the death penalty and assisted suicide would be those kinds of issues.

I frequently disagree with my church on issues such as these, and luckily we have a preacher who is non-divisive and quite skilled in how he presents information and approaches these subjects.

I don't think I've been to a church service (various churches in Madison, WI, and Santa Fe, NM) in the last 18 months or so where there hasn't been talk of the conflict in the Middle East.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I don't think I've been to a church service (various churches in Madison, WI, and Santa Fe, NM) in the last 18 months or so where there hasn't been talk of the conflict in the Middle East.

Just out of curiosity here ... are you including "chit-chat among the flock" in that statement or do you mean as an actual part of the service? And is that including references such as praying for the safety of our troops overseas, etc?

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

Wow, where do you find the time?

The preacher at the church I attend has in fact lamented the loss of life in Iraq, both US and otherwise, on several occasions. He does so in prayer and in context of biblical love for the importance of all life.

Has the preacher compared the US invasion of Iraq to the Nazi invasion of Poland? Has he told people who support the war that they can not get communion?

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Why didn't the priest mention all of the people we killed/are killing in Iraq? The Pope is against that too, but you never hear about it in sermons in this country. Odd.

The Pope came out pretty strongly against the war. The reason why the local churches don't is war is always a sticky issue. If you are going in for humanitarian reasons then is it right? Is the killing of say 10,000 people who abuse 2,000,000 people justified? It's hard to say. Also, isn't that getting a little too political as well?

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

A priest's rail against abortion is what drove me out of the catholic church for good. That was the last Sunday mass that I went to. I went to a couple holiday masses after that to appease my mother, but that ended after a couple years.

I am kind of confused about this. Abortion is the one thing that the Church is completely consistent in. As Dutch pointed out, they're pretty consistent with that. I'd actually be afraid of attending Church where abortion isn't condemned.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Just out of curiosity here ... are you including "chit-chat among the flock" in that statement or do you mean as an actual part of the service? And is that including references such as praying for the safety of our troops overseas, etc?

No to the 'chit-chat' part of the question, yes to the others. Typically there is either somebody in the congregation deploying, returning home, injured or killed that gets mentioned, or else there is some prayer offered up for the safe return of all our soldiers, or a peaceful resolution to however somebody sees the crisis (Arab-Israel, US-Arab, etc.) It's somewhat unusual to see any minister get political, although I'm not a Catholic, so I can't speak to whether it's more common there. It is not unusual to see a minister use politics/current events to try and open our eyes to eternal truths, such as our own fragility.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Has the preacher compared the US invasion of Iraq to the Nazi invasion of Poland? Has he told people who support the war that they can not get communion?

There is no grounds for that.

The war in Iraq is not comparable to the invasion of Poland. Have we rounded up the Shi'as and put them in concentration camps? Have we been conducting genetic experiments on them?

No.

There is plenty of support in the Bible that support fighting wars. Support of war alone is not grounds for denying communion.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

The Pope came out pretty strongly against the war. The reason why the local churches don't is war is always a sticky issue. If you are going in for humanitarian reasons then is it right? Is the killing of say 10,000 people who abuse 2,000,000 people justified? It's hard to say. Also, isn't that getting a little too political as well?

My only point was that churches tend to overplay the things they agree with conservatives on and underplay things they agree with liberals on. It is much more prominent on the national state, however.

Originally Posted by Warhammer

I am kind of confused about this. Abortion is the one thing that the Church is completely consistent in. As Dutch pointed out, they're pretty consistent with that. I'd actually be afraid of attending Church where abortion isn't condemned.

And that's why I don't attend, I just don't agree with them. I'm not saying it's wrong for them to preach against it, not at all, they can do what they want.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

And that's why I don't attend, I just don't agree with them. I'm not saying it's wrong for them to preach against it, not at all, they can do what they want.

Makes sense to me. Truth be told, I wish more people would have your attitude, rather than taking the lunch buffet approach.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

My only point was that churches tend to overplay the things they agree with conservatives on and underplay things they agree with liberals on. It is much more prominent on the national state, however.


And that's why I don't attend, I just don't agree with them. I'm not saying it's wrong for them to preach against it, not at all, they can do what they want.

I daresay you've never been to a Quaker service.

[Scarecrow]

Easy Mac,

Just so you know, the whole 'bring up abortion is a sin' wasn't just something your priest decided to talk about today, I think The Church must of had a mandate on it since our priest went on about it (along with the death penalty), as did the priest at my in-laws church.

I've been getting more and more unhappy at service lately, much for the same things you are: we have these really good messages in the readings, but instead of teaching how the readings affect our life, he goes into a lecture on stewardship.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

Easy Mac,

Just so you know, the whole 'bring up abortion is a sin' wasn't just something your priest decided to talk about today, I think The Church must of had a mandate on it since our priest went on about it (along with the death penalty), as did the priest at my in-laws church.

I've been getting more and more unhappy at service lately, much for the same things you are: we have these really good messages in the readings, but instead of teaching how the readings affect our life, he goes into a lecture on stewardship.

I blame the hierarchy of the US Catholic Church with ruining the faith here in the States.

PRE and RCIA do not teach what it means to be a Catholic with the result that many kids grow up with no real clue about what the Church really believes in aside from "God is Love."

[Abe Sargent]

If you think the Catholic Church is political, you should try attending a service at a typical black church here in the Detroit area.


-Anxiety

[biological warrior]

The only way I would leave/boycott the church is if they became too political and try to influence MY daily life and, habits. Then I would call for a new vatican council by stapling tenets I believe should be reformed on the church's front door (Im really serious on this one.)

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by biological warrior

The only way I would leave/boycott the church is if they became too political and try to influence MY daily life and, habits. Then I would call for a new vatican council by stapling tenets I believe should be reformed on the church's front door (Im really serious on this one.)

That would be AWE-some.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I think people confuse "The Church" with a personal relationship with God. If a church upsets you, and makes you uncomfortable, leave it. The church isn't the important thing anyway. Traditions of men and "religion" are fleeting, but God is eternal.

For what it's worth, I totally agree that churches and church leaders should stay out of organized politics. But on a personal level, I don't feel that abortion is a political issue, as much as a moral issue.

My thoughts exactly.

I am happy with my church (even though we don't go regularly). Even though we are the 2nd largest church in the most conservative of all cig cities, there are no politics or political sermons (which is rare for this city). The only politics that are played are at denomination conferences, from what I've gathered. We are focused on being a "missional" church, to our community and to our world. Political games are for the secular churches and for those seeking worldly power.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

i don't hate it... i'm generally wary of it though. odd since i'm catholic, probably the most organized of them all. i generally follow my own way based on my readings and interpretations of things.

If you don't like politics with your religion or a church that dictates your relationship with God then the Catholic church isn't for you. The very essence of the Protestant revolt against the Catholic church was objection to its political nature and the way it stands between a man and his God.

also, i was asking about leaving the Church as a whole, not just what would make you get up and leave.

Whether by "Church" you mean the Catholic church or the Christian church as a whole I'm not sure. If the first then the independant approach you express would suggest that a church that emphasises your individual relationship with God may well be better for you. There are many such churches. You seem to have looked at and rejected several but I'm sure there are others that might suit.

If the second - well, I'll leave that for the moment until you indicate this is the case, as I'll be accused of undermining people's faith with my answer.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I think people confuse "The Church" with a personal relationship with God. If a church upsets you, and makes you uncomfortable, leave it. The church isn't the important thing anyway. Traditions of men and "religion" are fleeting, but God is eternal.

These are pretty much my thoughts as well. Schmidty is a wise man.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

These are pretty much my thoughts as well. Schmidty is a wise man.

Except for his irrational love for Steve Yzerman, I agree.

[Draft Dodger]

my wife is Catholic, but rarely attends church - partly because she has been questioning the religion as of late, partly because it's a hassle to go, and partly because I'm not Catholic.

so we attended a funeral on Friday. my wife was already a bit rankled during the ceremony, because we got to the part about compassion for the poor and hungry and stuff and she knew that that compassion often doesn't extend to, say, the lesbian couple we were there with. then, on the way out, she's stopped dead in her tracks by the anti-abortion rally poster (something along the lines of x-million babies killed by choice). it really rubbed her the wrong way. I doubt that she will become a regular church goer again in the near future.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Except for his irrational love for Steve Yzerman, I agree.

No love for Steve Yzerman is irrational.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

Schmidty is a wise man.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

my wife is Catholic, but rarely attends church - partly because she has been questioning the religion as of late, partly because it's a hassle to go, and partly because I'm not Catholic.

so we attended a funeral on Friday. my wife was already a bit rankled during the ceremony, because we got to the part about compassion for the poor and hungry and stuff and she knew that that compassion often doesn't extend to, say, the lesbian couple we were there with. then, on the way out, she's stopped dead in her tracks by the anti-abortion rally poster (something along the lines of x-million babies killed by choice). it really rubbed her the wrong way. I doubt that she will become a regular church goer again in the near future.

An anti-abortion rally poster at a funeral? That's weird.

[SirFozzie]

Thank you for wrapping up every reason why I no longer attend church on a weekly basis. (well, that combined with the shitty response to the pedophile priest scandal up here)

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Dutch

An anti-abortion rally poster at a funeral? That's weird.

right next to the exit door.
not specifically up just for the funeral.

[ice4277]

I think a lot of people are confusing 'politics' with 'morals'. Abortion may be a political issue but it is also an issue of morality for the Church.

[Raiders Army]

If there are no innocent churchgirls I can corrupt in the church, I would stop going.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

Easy Mac,

Just so you know, the whole 'bring up abortion is a sin' wasn't just something your priest decided to talk about today, I think The Church must of had a mandate on it since our priest went on about it (along with the death penalty), as did the priest at my in-laws church.

I've been getting more and more unhappy at service lately, much for the same things you are: we have these really good messages in the readings, but instead of teaching how the readings affect our life, he goes into a lecture on stewardship.

Just to make it clear, I believe there is a right to life conference or march or something in DC. I think my problem was, he didn't bother trying to tie anything to the readings at all. He didn't seem to have a good grasp on what he spoke on, often stumbling over his sentences and getting confused as to what the court actually said in their opinion. I don't mind a conversation like this on a messageboard or in a bar, or even over the dinner table (though I avoid it at all costs, even just shutting up around my in-laws even when I could out-argue them in 5 seconds). However, a church with a captive audience, even if they agree with you, isn't the time to soap box in the manner he did, using the words he did. I think its kind of one of those context issues where you'd have to be there to really understand the language that was used. It wasn't so much reciting church dogma as it was mixing that with outlandish statements and taking it out of a faith based discussion and turning it into a political one. Those are obviously difficult to separate, but there are easy ways to do it.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut.

My nuts are immense.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

My nuts are immense.

not only that, but he likes to store them in hollowed out tree stumps so that rodents can enjoy them.

[stevew]

I was in church last week and the sermon goes on and on about how Vietnam was all about fighting evil, and so is the Iraqi war, etc. Definately a big WTF moment for me, I think I may start going to Mass now.

[cody8200]

I went to mass with my fiancee today. I'm protestant, she's catholic. The priest had invited a woman from Planned Parenthood to come in and talk about what the organization did and to basically ask for volunteers. She also mentioned some scary, crazy statistics that I questioned but could be true. She said 1 in 4 potential births since Row V. Wade (33 years ago today) have been aborted. She also said that nearly 45 percent of all women vy age 45 will have had an abortion. This seems ridicukously high. Anyway, I didn't mind the abortion talk because I am against it and since today was the day of the Row vs. Wade verdict, but I'm pretty sure that 45 percent of all women 45 and older were sitting a little uncomfortable.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

My nuts are immense.

Elephantitis is nothing to brag about.

[SFL Cat]

First off, I would have to say you must not be much of a Catholic not to know that the church has always been very strong against abortion. It is one of the few Catholic doctrines I appaud.

That said, I think most churches in the West (both Protestant and Catholic) are simply glorified social clubs, and have little moral connection with Christ or his teachings. The church for the most part is also impotent. Christ said the same signs and wonders He performed while he was on earth would also follow those who called upon His name. Although I've seen and heard about some pretty amazing things happening in the mission fields overseas, you don't see too much of the power of God on the move in the Western world. Scripture teaches that faith without works is dead, I would add that the church without the manifestation of God's power is also dead. I think God's message to the Church Laodicea in the Revelation is applicable to the Western churches. "I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I would that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. Because you say, 'I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,' and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire, that you may become rich, and white garments, that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of you nakedness may not be revealed; and eyesalve to anoint your eyes, that you may see."

Christ word's are often not easy to hear. They often convict and show us how we are not living in accordance to God's will. There are two responses, repentence or revolt. I think most church congregations today can be summed up by 2 Timothy 4:3-4 -- For a time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with what they want to hear; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to lies.

I also get a little tired of the New-Agey "God is Love," gooiness. God is indeed love, full of loving and kindness and patience. This is evidenced by his gift of eternal life to us through Christ. However, God also has a lot of scariness about Him. This is one reason the scriptures tell us to work out our salvation in "fear and trembling." Christ himself said, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword, For I came to set man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life shall lose it, and he has has lost his life for My sake shall find it."