OT: Musings on Computer RPGs

[WSUCougar]

First off, let me state that I love role-playing games in general. I have always been a fan of them, since way back in the halcyon days of my youth. They are a great way to explore an active imagination, such as mine.

I have tried a host of computer-based RPGs over the past decade or so. Recently (the past several years), there has seemingly been an explosion of them, based in part on the leaps made in computer speed and capabilities such as 3D graphics.

Just to name a few of the titles I have played (some more than others):

Baldur’s Gate I & II
Icewind Dale
Might & Magic (several of these)
Planescape Torment
Fallout I & II
Arcanum
Sea Dogs
Wizardy 8
Neverwinter Nights
Morrowind

Random comments:

(1) Give me good presentation & interface. Yes, I combined these two realizing that they are different. The bottom line here for me is that it has to look great without sacrificing functionality. I love stylistic presentation, but I hate fumbling around for things. I need both. Many of the games achieve this.

(2) I want tactical combat. Games like this are so combat-dominated, yet so often the resolution of combat is boring. Clicking on the enemy Diablo-style isn’t nearly enough for me. Why develop all this attachment to a “fighter” character when all they do is hit things the same way, only harder? I want options. I don’t want real time mayhem, but rather tactical decisions and ways in which my character is different in terms of attacks, skills, whatever. I liked the formation settings in Wizardry 8. I liked the ability to pause the action (based on what parameters I wanted) in Icewind Dale. I like the combat-related feats in Neverwinter Nights. I like when terrain matters. I like critical hits that matter, rather than just more hit points off your total. I don’t like how in Morrowind you have to do this goofy double keystroke trick to pierce with your weapon rather than slash.

(3) The problem of escalating challenge levels. Too often you waltz your way through monsters or opponents that aren’t very challenging, only to suddenly hit The Big Bad Guy who blows you away in an instant, and you have to reload your saved game a dozen times before you figure out a trick to beating them. I could list examples until I’m blue in the face, but I’m sure you know what I mean. I would much rather have a situation where it requires some tactical creativity (and a system that allows for it), instead of a Much Stronger Monster.

(4) Give me “realistic” animations, settings, and other interactions and portrayals. Okay, here is where many titles ultimately disappoint. I just can’t get past some of these when it comes to enjoyment of the gaming experience. Example: Arcanum, with the herky-jerky character movement. Neverwinter Nights is strong in this way – I like the way the characters maneuver for position in combat. As for settings, I like those that have a lot of places to explore, with some hidden stuff that isn’t going to ruin the plot if you miss it, but are specific to that area. Why does every barrel, box, crate, and chest have to have the same types of things in them? A crate in an alley with a magic scroll in it? And books…why do they give you so many worthless books in some games? “Fred’s Journal of Religions in Far Jabip.” O-k, and that matters why? I like the fact that in Morrowind you can enhance some of your skills by reading an appropriate book.

(5) NPCs. Please, PLEASE, is it possible to have an RPG where the NPCs don’t just stand there like idiots or walk in ridiculous circles or other silly patterns? This is a brutal weakness, IMO. I really soured on Morrowind (for awhile, at least) because the NPCs were so inanimate. For example, one quest required seeking out and re-acquiring some stolen items from a smuggler. Well, I find the guy in a tavern, and hope to use my pick-pocketing ability to see what he might have on him. But he’s facing the bartender, and there are two other patrons in the room, such that it is impossible to do anything other than talk. And there he’ll stand like a zombie until the end of time. Yawn.

(6) Conversations. Give me options, with different response trees. Provide depth. Too often the choices are more or less “How can I help you with the quest you are about to offer me?” or “Shut up or I’ll cut your tongue out!”

(7) Plot-line. Give me open-ended. Give me room to establish my character the way I want to. The plot has to drive the gameplay to a degree, but too often it hinders the experience. As polished as the Baldur’s Gate games were, the action was so tied to the plot that I got bored with them. I find it hard to role-play when my character is locked into things like that.

Ah well, enough for now. If anyone has any in-depth comments to add, I’d like to hear some other perspectives. Please refrain from the “Oh man, how could you not like Arcanum?!?” comments, or at least try to keep them to a minimum.

[Fritz]

I like very flexible character development.

I would like it if games found a better way to ballance out characters so that one type was not inherently more powerful than another.

[Bee]

I like lots of items with different attributes.

[Qwikshot]

I still like Morrowind the best...just got Tribunal...

[Anrhydeddu]

No mention of Gothic.

It's amazing that of all of the RPG games, Gothic is the only one that I keep going back to (playing it again for the 3rd time). Tried Morrowind and hated it, and I will not actively play non-FP RPGs.

BTW, Sea Dogs is not an RPG. It's a piece of crap made by Russian developers who had no clue about anything, except how to make a nice looking ocean and solar flares. I should know, that (and other pirate game sites) was where I spent all of my time prior to FOFC. This was where Buccaneer came from.

[Bee]

Sea Dogs was a major disappointment.

I don't have much hope for Sea Dogs II, but I'll end up getting excited about the potential and buy the game. Then after a couple hours, I'll throw it across the room in disgust.

[korme]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
No mention of Gothic.

It's amazing that of all of the RPG games, Gothic is the only one that I keep going back to (playing it again for the 3rd time). Tried Morrowind and hated it, and I will not actively play non-FP RPGs.

BTW, Sea Dogs is not an RPG. It's a piece of crap made by Russian developers who had no clue about anything, except how to make a nice looking ocean and solar flares. I should know, that (and other pirate game sites) was where I spent all of my time prior to FOFC. This was where Buccaneer came from.

Bucc hooked me on Gothic!!

[WSUCougar]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
No mention of Gothic.

It's amazing that of all of the RPG games, Gothic is the only one that I keep going back to (playing it again for the 3rd time). Tried Morrowind and hated it, and I will not actively play non-FP RPGs.

BTW, Sea Dogs is not an RPG. It's a piece of crap made by Russian developers who had no clue about anything, except how to make a nice looking ocean and solar flares. I should know, that (and other pirate game sites) was where I spent all of my time prior to FOFC. This was where Buccaneer came from.

In truth, while I know of your love for Gothic, I found that it suffered from several of the woes that I listed above. I just forgot to list it, because I became disenchanted with it rather quickly. *ducks*

Sea Dogs is indeed a mess, but I listed it since some consider it an RPG. My personal memories of it center around pathetic town interactions interspaced between frantic, circling cannon battles in stormy seas to the beat of riotous music.

Artist-formerly-known-as-Bucc, have you seen the previews for Tropico II? I am pretty excited about it (although it's not an RPG, of course).

[sabotai]

WSU, I agree with everything you stated above. Very nicely put.

Speaking from a developer's perspective, though, it is actually hard to put all of that into one game. I understand the frustration with Morrowind as I share that same frustration. But imagine being a developer and having a game in a game world as large as Morrowind and inputting individually every NPC and giving each one specific behavoirs and what not. That'd be a nightmare.

Not defending the developers or anything. But just giving a reason why games tend to have paper-cut-out NPCs that do nothing. Mainly, it'd take forever to give them each personality.

[sachmo71]

That's why I like ADOM. Lot's of stats, lots of combat, lots of items. Major weakness? There isn't really a story, and it's hard to master.

[sachmo71]

One more negative...the graphics are ASCII. However, you learn to run when you see a red dragon. Actually, when you see this D !

[WSUCougar]

Originally posted by sabotai
But imagine being a developer and having a game in a game world as large as Morrowind and inputting individually every NPC and giving each one specific behavoirs and what not. That'd be a nightmare.

Not defending the developers or anything. But just giving a reason why games tend to have paper-cut-out NPCs that do nothing. Mainly, it'd take forever to give them each personality.

Point taken, sabotai. I guess my plea in response to that would be that major NPCs (as opposed to, say, the standard "tavern patron" or "peasant") are worth the time and effort to flesh them out more, in terms of the role-playing aspect. To continue my Morrowind example, I think it'd be kind of cool if the smuggler was hard to track down, and even harder to get into a position to pick-pocket. Like maybe some of the time he would be unloading his boat full of goods, other times he would be drinking in the tavern, other times he'd be alone, etc. Instead, it's a cut-and-dried situation, which apparently only has one solution (in terms of that NPC's role in the game).

I'm not picking on Morrowing exclusively for this - it's a common issue in RPGs, and I realize it's a limitation of the medium. But I think it's a trade-off for other things that is worthwhile. I like, for example, how in Neverwinter Nights (and some other games) you can attempt to persuade an NPC using a trait. That's more interaction, and that's a good thing.

[sabotai]

WSU, I agree. The major NPCs should get a a lot of attention. It doesn't really bother me when the NPCs that are not important just stand there. But it would be nice if the major ones did not just stand there either.

I guess that's the appeal of MMORPGs. A lot NPCs stand and do nothing, but most people you meet are actual people, so it's not a statci, un-evolving world like Morrowind.

[Draft Dodger]

I was playing Morrowind today, and I had this thought:

"do they hire someone to write the text for all those damn books that you find in the game that I never read? because, if so, it's a huge waste of money."

I LOVE Morrowind though. To me, the negatives of the game are FAR outweighed by the positives. There's just so much stuff where I've stopped an said "neat" with this game. It's pretty easy to get over the stuff that isn't so great (the pre-determined conversations and 1-click combat).

[Blackadar]

All of those ideas are good. However, the overriding factor for me is a good storyline. The better the story and plot, the better I like the game. I never finished Icewind Dale I or II because they were too light on story, but I loved Baldur's Gate. Torment and U7 are my two all-time favorites because the stories were so good.

[wbonnell]

Originally posted by Blackadar
All of those ideas are good. However, the overriding factor for me is a good storyline. The better the story and plot, the better I like the game. I never finished Icewind Dale I or II because they were too light on story, but I loved Baldur's Gate. Torment and U7 are my two all-time favorites because the stories were so good.

I'm with you on that, though it took me a long time to discover it. In fact, I enjoy pure adventure games more than I realized. Games like Spycraft and Curse of Monkey Island (and heck, Pajama Sam) are some of my all time favorites. Deus Ex- over the top story and all- is probably my all time favorite game.

Morrowind was like a huge adventure game without any story. I had much fun playing it, but I always felt something was missing. IMO, you shouldn't have an NPC unless he/she can contribute to the game- period. Cardboard NPCs don't add atmosphere to a game. On the contrary, they ruin my suspension of disbelief.

[McSweeny]

Originally posted by wbonnell
I'm with you on that, though it took me a long time to discover it. In fact, I enjoy pure adventure games more than I realized. Games like Spycraft and Curse of Monkey Island (and heck, Pajama Sam) are some of my all time favorites. Deus Ex- over the top story and all- is probably my all time favorite game.

Morrowind was like a huge adventure game without any story. I had much fun playing it, but I always felt something was missing. IMO, you shouldn't have an NPC unless he/she can contribute to the game- period. Cardboard NPCs don't add atmosphere to a game. On the contrary, they ruin my suspension of disbelief.

monkey island 1 and 2 were great games. Easily the favorite games of my youth. Those games had my laughing sooo hard

[wbonnell]

I've shied away from Gothic. Everyone here raves about it, but the reviews, while not horrible, are less than stellar:

PC Gamer: 75 out of 100
Computer Games Magazine: 4 out of 5
Computer Gaming World: 3.5 out of 5

Now, I don't necessarily treat these reviews as gospel, but considering the number of top notch games on the market and my limited free time, I find it hard to justify spending time with a game that isn't esteemed by all major review rags.

So, where's the disconnect? What are these reviewers missing?


Btw, if you haven't heard about www.gamerankings.com, check it out immediately. You shouldn't buy a game without consulting its impressive database of reviews.

[daedalus]

Well said, WSUCougar. I definitely agree with your post. I know it's not consider a pure RPG but Jagged Alliance 2 does a lot of what you mentioned right. And I heart Torment.

[wbonnell]

Originally posted by daedalus
Well said, WSUCougar. I definitely agree with your post. I know it's not consider a pure RPG but Jagged Alliance 2 does a lot of what you mentioned right. And I heart Torment.

Torment- now that is a true masterpiece. If I didn't have a dozen games in backlog, I'd revisit it as an evil character.

Btw, after playing Deus Ex, I now recognize your FOFC handle! Didn't Spector also use the idea of an AI with a god complex in System Shock 2?

[daedalus]

I believe so. I still want to play that game. I've seen it mentioned a number of times that that computer is one of the better villains.

[Mota]

I started playing Everquest again, and am really happy that I did.

Many of the things that we hated about it in 1999 have been fixed, they've added TONS of depth and quests, and improved the interface to make it playable. It actually looks and feels a lot more like Dark Ages of Camelot now, which is great. DAOC's UI was amazing, but there wasn't much to the game, the levelling treadmill was huge, and the PvP in the end was very disapointing unless you were an archer type character. A friend of mine has a level 56 character and says that he only has seen about 1/3 of the world, so even though levelling takes a long time, you don't have to spend ages levelling in the same zone, killing the same monsters.

I bought the Atlas this week, and it's great, there's a small map and a history of each zone in the game. It really fleshes out the story and makes the game more fun.

It's not for everybody (it wasn't for me when I first picked it up), but they've really fleshed it out and transformed it into a real RPG IMO. It's worth trying.

BTW, I play Bande on the Fennin Ro server.

[Bee]

Originally posted by sachmo71
That's why I like ADOM. Lot's of stats, lots of combat, lots of items. Major weakness? There isn't really a story, and it's hard to master.

I really enjoy the rogue-like games as well. There are simple graphic versions of many of them either in existence or in development. They are a great distraction from more "intellectual" RPG's.

[Thomkal]

Originally posted by wbonnell
Btw, after playing Deus Ex, I now recognize your FOFC handle! Didn't Spector also use the idea of an AI with a god complex in System Shock 2?

Yes to this question about System Shock 2. I love this game and it was one of the first things I reloaded after losing my old computer to a fatal crash. The game really makes you think with its puzzle solving, and its downright scary too. Play it late at night with the lights off and I guarantee nightmares. The taunting of the AI, the mutated crewmembers you must fight are scary enough. But every so often as you walking along a corridor, or into the next room, your mind focussed on finding a solution to a puzzle, a conduit will blow up or a beam will fall from the ceiling and darn near give you a heart attack. I don't usually have long play sessions with the game because its just so intense and part of me is scared to see what horror awaits me next. Just an awesome game that everyone should check out.

[Bee]

I've heard a lot of good things about System Shock 2, but never played it. I might have to check it out.

[WSUCougar]

Originally posted by daedalus
Well said, WSUCougar. I definitely agree with your post. I know it's not consider a pure RPG but Jagged Alliance 2 does a lot of what you mentioned right. And I heart Torment.

daedalus, I really enjoyed JA2 as well. The Fallout games also had some elements like this. I'd love to see a similar system put to use in a fantasy RPG environment.

Blackie, I hear what you are saying, but the story to me is only the setting for the game - if it's the driving factor then it becomes a different experience. The more compelling the better, but if the predetermined role of my character (you are X and must do Y) is too strong, than the role-playing element sours for me.

As I've stated before, Morrowind's open style (here's the world, here's the setting, here's some things going on, have at it!) is perfect for me. That's a good role-playing environment. But again, the limitations of computer-based gaming (programming code, etc.) rise up.

[sabotai]

Mota, I liked Everquest. A lot, actually. But I still have problems with it.

For one, camping. I hate having to sit in one place for 5 hours killing monsters as they spawn.

I also don't like that I have to group up in order to do everything. I know with some classes, you can get away with solo'ing for awhile, but eventually you have to group.

I also don't like that you have to fight in order to level. I'd be great that if I wanted to be a blacksmith, making weapons and selling them to people, I could without having to be level 30+ in something else.

I know I would need to find a source of money to practice my trade, and that would involve fighting some of the time, but I don't see why I have to level up to 35 as a Elf Fighter (or whatever), before I can practice blacksmithing to a level that it'll be worth it.

I guess what I'm looking for is more of an open-ended MMORPG. And one that has more of an evolving world.

What I mean is when an NPC is killed....they should stay dead. How many times does Emprorer Crush need to be killed before he's gone? His castle is overrun with players. There should be no more orcs. And how many CB belts does that guy in Kaladim need anyway? He's probably got enough by now to fill that whole city.

In a way, it's the quests that turn me off to it. I want a game where players control everything. Where a quest is done, and then it's done.

Emporor Crush should be so well guarded by HUNDREDS of orcs that no one should be able to get to him. Where it'll take HUNDREDS of players of high level to invade Crushbone and kill him. And even then, they might not be successful. EDIT: And when Crush dies, he stays dead.

I know the technology today would never be able to handle such a thing. But basically, that's what I want.

[Bee]

I agree sabotai. It would be nice if what you did in the Everquest universe actually affected it. I'd love to see a game where when a monster or character (including player characters) died, they actually stayed dead. It could get frustrating if you lose a level 45 character, but that's life (or death in this case).

It would probably require a lot of attention by game designers to keep the universe active (if the orcs are killed off, perhaps bring in another race or a new "tribe" of orcs in a different location, etc.). Oh well, maybe one day something like that will come out.

[sabotai]

Bee, I look at it like nature. Everything should be balanced. Like, let's look at an example. A simply one.

The Orc population keeps the Goblin population steady. The Orcs use the goblins as slaves and the free goblins are not that many.

Now, a group of Elves come along and kill 75% of the Orcs, including the leader. Now the Orcs go into hiding and the goblins become free. Now the Goblin population explodes.

Somethign like that. Not needing a new race, just have the population of the races balance each other. And when that balance is destroyed, it should have different effects.

And if the Orcs are completly destroyed, then other races should 'come to power' if on their own growing numbers.

I know it's just a pipe dream now...but maybe...one day.....(*gets out paper and starts making a design*)

[Bee]

And when a leader of a "tribe" dies, they should be replaced or the existing "tribe" should splinter (or even possibly join another tribe). There would be a lot of ways for things to go that would make a game like that interesting, but right now those games are just way too stagnant for my tastes.

[sabotai]

Yes, great idea. It'd be cool if we had like an Orc civil war because a leader died. That'd rule!

[Qwikshot]

Actually I was reading slate.com and that had an article on how economic experts are watching how Everquest economy works...they are amazed at its process, and how its trascended the internet world and into the real world (people buying better players from other players, etc..)

[Anrhydeddu]

Why no mention of AC2? That actually might be my first venture into the world of MMORPG.

[wbonnell]

Originally posted by WSUCougar
daedalus, I really enjoyed JA2 as well. The Fallout games also had some elements like this. I'd love to see a similar system put to use in a fantasy RPG environment.

I assume you've heard of Fallout Tactics...


http://www.gamespy.com/reviews/march01/fallouttactics/

[sabotai]

A, AC2 might be a good look. I've heard good things, I've heard bad things. I think I'm one of the few people that liek that fact that the world is kind of 'empty' right now because it was just released.

[Thomkal]

I play AC2, and my reaction to it is blah. Beautiful graphics, an ever evovling story, but not much all that new or different in terms of game play. The recent decision to not make any changes to the crafting system where players can make their own weapon/armor/etc for several months makes crafting somewhat of a waste of time and effort for those who started with it before the recent changes.

It still holds my interest but other games coming out soon (City of Heroes) may limit my AC2 time.

[WSUCougar]

Question for everyone:

In your opinion, which computer RPG do you feel best captured the role-playing element? Forget about graphics, plot, game engine, and everything else. In which game did you really feel like you were living through the character?

[sachmo71]

Originally posted by WSUCougar
Question for everyone:

In your opinion, which computer RPG do you feel best captured the role-playing element? Forget about graphics, plot, game engine, and everything else. In which game did you really feel like you were living through the character?

Wizardry: Crusaders Of the Dark Savant.

I can't really tell you why, but I always felt like I was huddled down there with my guys, trying to make sense of this strange new world.

[bosshogg23]

Fallout.

In the beginning I just HAD to get the waterchip to save my people.

[Mota]

I played AC2 for a month and wasn't impressed at all. The world was totally empty. There weren't even that many players online, and most of them were soloing.

The engine seemed pretty good and the graphics were great, but there was next to no content to it. Maybe a year from now it will be much more interesting, but as soon as my free month ended I uninstalled it and moved on to other things.

Regarding the EQ conversation, if you put too much pressure on one faction (the Orcs), then maybe they'd get desperate and attack your cities at the times where the player population was at it's lowest. That would be pretty cool if you're hanging around Qeynos and all of a sudden 100 Orcs came crashing through the gate while you're trying to sell something to a merchant. That would catch people off guard!

[Blackadar]

Originally posted by WSUCougar
Question for everyone:

In your opinion, which computer RPG do you feel best captured the role-playing element? Forget about graphics, plot, game engine, and everything else. In which game did you really feel like you were living through the character?

Torment. You were discovering his world just as he was. It was strange, weird and a bit frightening. As you learned about his past, it was pretty easy to think that is was your past lives.

Ultima 7 isn't far behind. If you remember the first part, then you'll remember that the Guardian actually spoke to you while at your computer and then you got into a Moongate in your back yard. A great way to get you into the game. By the time the game was over, I was genuinely pissed off at Batlin.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by WSUCougar
Question for everyone:

In your opinion, which computer RPG do you feel best captured the role-playing element? Forget about graphics, plot, game engine, and everything else. In which game did you really feel like you were living through the character?

I have to say I had such a moment in Ultima v way back in the day. It was a great game. Graphics were basic, but the plot was great. Britania crumbling under the tyranical reign of the new leader (what was that guy's name? Black something? I want to say Blackadar, but dunno if that's right). The "Avatar" returned to set things right and you had to go around and gather up all of your old friends. Some were bitter, some sick, all scattered. It was great, really like catching up with old mates.

The best was if you were captured by the big bad guy and he would tortue you to get a Mantra for a shrine. Because once he had the mantra he could destroy the shrine. He would ask you over and over and if you refused he would kill one of your companions. Not just kill them, obliderate them. They would be on the rack, get ripped apart and simply disappear from your screen. No resurection possible. No healing. Nothing. Gone. from. the. game. When that first happened I let out a rather girlish scream and nearly fell out of my chair... "IOLO!!!"

[Qwikshot]

Originally posted by WSUCougar
Question for everyone:

In your opinion, which computer RPG do you feel best captured the role-playing element? Forget about graphics, plot, game engine, and everything else. In which game did you really feel like you were living through the character?

I really like Morrowind in that you are what you want to be. There is a linear plot there, but you don't have to do it, you don't have to rush against the clock, the baddies will still adjust to your level of advancement, you aren't locked into any class, want to learn magic, okay, want to hack and slash, okay too...the story is decent, but the beauty is there are times where you just wander, and look out to the ocean or the sunset, or the sky at night and are blown away...the first time it rained, my daughter ran in fright from the thunder and lightning...amazing.

Torment was the best story driven RPG. I wish you had been able to involve yourself with more factions but oh well. The characters will brilliant...the kicker is, that I beat the game, but I never learned my name...I missed out on the part where you can learn..(you talk to your 3 selves)...killed me...I guess one day I'll fire it up again.

Balders Gate 1 and 2 was cool, but it was too big (it's linear driven, unlike Morrowind which while it's immense, doesn't make you trapped if you get stuck on a part). Icewind Dale 1 and 2 were hack and slash, and quite boring...though I loved the ending of Dale 1, nice touch.

The first, first ever RPG that I played was Bard's Tale 3, and I thought it was awesome...I tried the first Bard's Tale but I couldn't get into it, because of the graphics (chortle) and I couldn't beat the first guy...all those stupid homes all packed together, you lose track without graph paper and pencils.