Vick vs Brees: If You Had The Top Pick

[Swaggs]

Hey Guys, I was just thinking this one over. Especially, with my Steelers so weak at QB. I think Vick is the most exciting player in college football this season and is more deserving of the Heisman.

But, I think if I were picking for the Steelers and both were on the board, I'd take Brees. I think the stronger, faster NFL defenders will negate some of the exciting scrambling plays that Vick makes. And, I think the passing skills of Brees are a bit more polished than those of Vick.

Just something to think about. Opinions?

[Iceberg]

I would take Brees because he is more of a sure thing and has preformed well against the better teams. Vick has more potential but he has not played many top notch opponents (Florida State). However with his arm strength he could be great.

[sachmo71]

Vick. Since he is staying in, one can only hope the Cowboys could possibly get him, but he will probably go to San Diego or something. Cest la vis...

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Go Cowboys...errr, Jets! Yeah, Jets!

[albionmoonlight]

The Steelers may be a special case b/c I think that the similarities to Kordel make Vick a dangerous choice. Personally, I haven't seen enough of them to make an informed judgement, but I think that Manning and Warner make the case that you don't need 4.4 speed to play quarterback in the NFL--at least not yet.

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read Patchen

[Logan]

Vick, by far.

Brees has a great arm, and will be a very good NFL QB.

Vick, OTOH, is so good when scrambling that people don't give him credit for his throwing ability. He has an absolute gun. I know some people see Vick and make the comparison to Kordell, but Vick is so much better and more polished at this point of his career, its not even funny. As long as he's in an offense that allows him to utilize both his throwing and running abilities, I see no reason that he can't be the next great NFL QB.

[jerem77]

Brees, Vick is too young and needs too much development to be an NFL Quarterback. Vick would be good for a team with an aging QB he could learn from.

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Chiefs 54 Rams 34
Gotta love Arrowhead

[QuikSand]

Each have widely publicized strengths and relatively unspoken weaknesses.

Brees certanily has the physcail tools, including agolden arm. But it is not clear that he has the stuff between the ears to play the pro game. He does not read coverages well, and he does not have the ability to cycle through his receivers-- both of which are important skills in the NFL. Canhe be successful? Sure. Is he a slam dunk? Not in my book.

Vick is a wonderful athlete. He'll be a dangerous weapon. But is he capable of running a standard NFL offense? Again, I think there are serious questions. I think he may well have the kind of skills that you conform a team to (rather than vice versa), but if he's your quarterback, an organized professional defense can simply take several things off the table-- he has not shown any consistent ability to read safety coverage schemes, and he does not have the arm to throw a 12-yard out pattern. Can he succeed? Yes, of course. Is he a slam dunk? Not in my book.

Give e the first pick, and I'll be looking for my own Bobby Beathard to make a Leafesque deal to move up and take one of these guys... I'll gladly move down and look elsewhere.

[TroyF]

Vick.

His arm strength, his speed, his poise. He can simply do more things for you than what Brees can.

I think both will be NFL QB's.

The thing to remember about the two in terms of comparison is that Vick is a sophmore and Brees is a senior. Brees SHOULD be a little more accurate than Vick at this point.

As far as Vick not playing competition, all you have to do is look at the Florida St. game. Vick was under pressure all night, yet completed over 50% of his passes for 225 yards and no int. and rushed for close to 100 yards.

The guy is a playmaker. I'll take Vick.

TroyF

[TroyF]

I don't disagree with you often Quick... but here I do bigtime. I'd go for either one of these guys. You win in the NFL with a good QB. Sometimes that means you take the chance on someone who has tools and see what happens.

TroyF

[AncientPharaoh]

Why do people so often say Brees can't run? He has only been sacked 5 tiems this year. He doesn't have to run! But, I've watched many Big Ten football games...and trust me...he can run the damn ball. And also, Vick isn't known to be the smartest person either ya know. I think in all, Brees would be better. But a lot of how good they could/will be depends on the offense and system of where they go. Like Leaf, he could've been a good QB, and still may, but the situation just wasn't right for him.

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BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID

[TheDawgsAreOut]

I think the answer here depends upon who has the first pick and what system they run. If we're talking west coast, Brees is the guy. He also fits the aforementioned Steelers because in their system, the qb's job is not to lose. Most of the other teams, I'd take Vick. Of course, if it's a team that really wants to try to contend fast, Weinke might be the guy. And don't discount Heupel.

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Hmm, Pac-10 champion Stanford gave up 509 total yards of offense to Tuiasosopo; I wonder how 3-4 Stanford will do against him.

[Ravens Fan]

Vick, without a doubt.

Vick's got the arm strength and accuracy of Brees combined with the speed/quickness/agility that would make him one of the most athletic QBs ever in the NFL.

While I agree that Brees may be the more polished of the two right now, Brees is a year older, I think, and Vick has so much more potential.

[This message has been edited by Ravens Fan (edited 10-24-2000).]

[Mantle2600]

DA BREES!!!

[Big_T73]

Sackmo71 -- Cowboys don't have a first round Pick this year or the next. all of this losing will go for nothing. I would choose Vick!!! I have seen him work pure miracles. Some players no matter how gifted they are just can't play. Others without all of the skills can find it from within and rise above others on the field. Vick has both.

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86'Astros forever!

[Mitch75]

Brees is playing in a much more "Pro" style offense which allows him to learn readying pass defense better, which is important in the NFL. Vick, at this point, reads his primary receiver and then scramble if he is not there. He hasn't developed enough patiance in the pocket to check off to his 2nd or 3rd reads yet. If I want a QB to step in a play right away, I would pick Brees. If I had the luxury of letting him get spot actio throughout his rookie season while having a veteran QB to take 85% of the snaps, I take Vick and get him oriented to the Pro style game.

[SkyLine]

Brees, By far. I think he is much tougher, and he's proved himself, Vick has not.

[Laddin]

Brees would be the closest thing to a prototype NFL passer...but I would take Vick, there's lots more things you can do with a more athletic QB. Roll outs are big in the NFL.

What amazes me is how many people say Vick won't be able to run a protype offense or who say, "Vick isn't known to be the smartest person either ya know". I'm also amazed with how many people think that pro defenses will negate Vick, kinda the way they did Kordell and Randall Cunningham and Steve Young and Mark Brunell and Warren Moon and Jeff Blake and Dante Culpepper and Steve McNair and Donovan McNabb. Truth is it gives the defense one more thing to think about and makes an offense more dangerous because if they don't watch the quarterback, bad things can happen.

[OldSchool]

Vick, Vick, Vick.

[Logan]

Originally posted by SkyLine:
Brees, By far. I think he is much tougher, and he's proved himself, Vick has not.

Please explain. I thought his fantastic performance in the Sugar Bowl was enough proof of his ability.

[detroit_fan]

Of the two I would take Heupel.

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heck is where people who don't believe in gosh go.

[This message has been edited by detroit_fan (edited 10-24-2000).]

[sooner333]

Vick? Brees? I say HEUPEL! Josh Heupel is the smartest player in the draft. He looks at film in his sleep. When he came on campus to see if OU was right for him, he didn't tour campus, look at the facilities, or meet some chicks...no, he looked at film to see if the offense was of his liking. And just to think, he was that close to signing with Utah State.

[Karlifornia]

Two words: Deonce Whitaker

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God is Gay, burn the flag

[TroyF]

yeah, Josh is a smart guy. I don't think he has all of the physical tools though. From every scouting report I've heard, the scouts say he lacks the arm strength to be a player in the NFL. If that's true, he'll go in the second or third round, behind Vick and Brees.

TroyF

[Cuckoo]

Thank Goodness. I'm scrolling down this list. Vick, Brees, Vick, Brees... just waiting for someone to say Heupel. Obviously it would be the sooner fan to bring him up. Heupel definitely has the talent to be a professional quarterback. I'd take his smarts and pure throwing ability over the other two any day of the week.

[Neuqua]

Don't forget about Illinois QB Kurt Kittner..

I'm only hoping his article in ESPN the Magazine can open some people's eyes about the guy.

But just for the record, I'd take:
1. Michael Vick
2. Kurt Kittner
3. Drew Brees
4. Heupel (honestly, i dont watch much College FB besides Illini so i dont know who he is)

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"If ever you come to a fork in the road, take it" - Yogi Berra

[Tony]

Originally posted by Neuqua:
(honestly, i dont watch much College FB besides Illini so i dont know who he is)

That's obvious, since you picked Kittner over Brees

[TheDawgsAreOut]

Originally posted by Cuckoo:
Thank Goodness. I'm scrolling down this list. Vick, Brees, Vick, Brees... just waiting for someone to say Heupel. Obviously it would be the sooner fan to bring him up.

Just for the record, I did previously mention Heupel. Why no support for Weinke? Yes, he's old, but he can throw for 500 yards and never loses. And Tuiasosopo remains the ONLY player in college football history to run for 200 yards and pass for 300 in the same game. He's had a tough time this year because of inexperienced recievers, but the team is still winning, and I've seen him as high as the 2nd best senior quarterback on some scouting pages.


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Hmm, Pac-10 champion Stanford gave up 509 total yards of offense to Tuiasosopo; I wonder how 3-4 Stanford will do against him.

[Karlifornia]

I knew the U-Dub fan wouldn't hesitate to bring up TuiasaSOAPSCUM. This is guy is talented, though. Too bad Stanford will shut him down on Saturday. I'll be there to see it in person

[Swaggs]

Does anyone (besides me) remember Major Harris from WVU? I'm biased, I'll admit that right away, but I look at Vick and I look at Harris, and see the same type of player. Harris was every bit as exciting as Vick. It was routine for him to run for a 65+ yard touchdown every game, making defenders look just plain silly. He also had a strong arm and was pretty accurate by the time he graduated. Like, Vick, he led his team to an undefeated season and a championship loss (unfortunately, he was injured early and ND was able to win 34-21 in a game that wasn't really as close as the score indicates).

He broke our hearts and left after his Junior year and was taken in the 12th round by the Raiders and never played in the NFL.

Vick has a much better NFL body. But, I still have to go back to the bigger, stronger defenders and them being better tacklers.

I guess I'd just like to see Vick stay in the pocket and break defenses down before I make a judgement on him. But, that may not make his team as successful. I've seen Brees pick apart defenses and just think he'll be the better NFL QB and a better bet to be a starter.

[Karlifornia]

Brees is kind of short I heard. Just Food for thought.

[This message has been edited by RadioFriendlyUnitShifter (edited 10-24-2000).]

[John Galt]

It is funny that so many people criticize Vick because he may not be able to run a "standard" NFL offense. The same can be said for Brees - Purdue runs a one or two step drop scheme (that is why is rarely sacked) that is similar to the fast break idea used at Florida. Brees could just as easily turn into Danny Wuerful (sp? - I can't remember) just as Vick could become Kordel (both of whom still may become decent NFL QBs). QBs are always risks and some like Vinnie T take a long time to realize their potential. I agree with QS that I would trade down and get more quality players.

[dacman]

Originally posted by QuikSand:
Brees certanily has the physcail tools, including agolden arm. But it is not clear that he has the stuff between the ears to play the pro game. He does not read coverages well, and he does not have the ability to cycle through his receivers-- both of which are important skills in the NFL. Can he be successful? Sure. Is he a slam dunk? Not in my book.

Well, as a lifelong Purdue fan and a follower of the FB team since 1984 I feel I have to weigh in on this issue.
QS, IMHO what Brees has between the ears is exactly what has made him so sucessful. He is not the best athlete in the world -- 4.8 40. Last semester he had a 4.0 in his major of Management. With 5 and 6 guys in the pattern on most pass plays, you better believe he can cycle through his receivers or he wouldn't be playing IMO.
That being said, I believe that it is his physical talents that will limit him in the NFL. He is not very fast, kind of short, and does not have the strongest arm in the world -- its strong, but there are many with stronger in NFL right now IMO.
I think Drew can be a good NFL quarterback but I do not expect him to be a future HOFer or "the franchise." Of course, I would love to be proven wrong.
More food for thought -- Vick had 84 total yards against a mediocre Syracuse defense.
IMO, Vick is a great runner who can throw. Yes, he has a strong arm, but I've yet to see him be consistent. Vick has more potential, but as we all know, sometimes its never realized. One game does not a player make.
I would pick Brees and I think he will be the first QB taken, but I don't expect any of the QB's in the top 5.
And as far as Brees not being a runner -- well lets just let the stats speak for themselves.
Vick 86-550-8TD's in 7 games
Brees 74-423-4TD's in 8 games

[Laddin]

The bottom line is this...Drafting a QB is always risky. Usually the NFL tries to mold the QB into it's team rather than design an offense around the abilities of their new young franchise QB.

If I were a gm in the nfl, I would look at which QB could run my offense with the fewest amount of changes.

Who's to say that the only reason that Drew Bledsoe is a future HOFmer is because he was drafted by the pats instead of the seahawks. We may be singing praises to Rick Mirer right now. The Bungles have drafted two franchise QB's in the past 7 years. The jury is still out on Akili, but if they both turn out bad why doesn't the franchise get any blame.

The only difference between the ones that made it and the ones that don't is ability to take punishment and lose and shrug it off. Tim Couch knew he was going to lose and didn't have that many expectations. Akili is told, the Bengals will go as far as Akili takes them. That's pressure a developing QB doesn't need.

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Help, I live in Cincinnati

There's just something about the style of quarterback that Vick plays that doesn't seem to fit in the NFL. I don't know why that is, and personally, I hope it will change, but for now, that's kind of the way it is.

Along the lines of what Swaggs said about Major Harris, I think another good comparison would be Michael Bishop. He was very similar to Vick in that he had a gun for an arm, but could just as easily put up 150 yards rushing on you. He almost single-handedly beat a better Syracuse team in the 97 Fiesta Bowl and came within 5 minutes of taking K-State to the 98 Championship Game. For all that success and all that talent, he was rewarded by being taken in the 7th round by New England. He's finally starting to get some looks in the red zone for the Pats, but he's been invisible for two years.

Another good example of a standout runner/gunner QB from college is Scott Frost. The Jets thought so much of his abilities, they made him a DB. Which says a great deal about his athleticism, but also a great deal about how well-suited that style is for the NFL (not very).

And for those who think that simply having smarts and an above-average (but not stellar) arm won't compensate for a lack of speed and a rifle for an arm, I have two words for you: Peyton Manning.

Vick is the prototypical collegiate quarterback. He is a tremendous athlete, and he can do it all. But for better or for worse, there's also a prototypical NFL quarterback, and he's not it. Maybe Vick will be the guy to change that, who knows. But athleticism can only take you so far. Just ask Ryan Leaf (though he wasn't much of a runner).

The list of college quarterbacks in Vick's mold who have been failures in the NFL is long: Kordell, Bishop, Harris, Frost, Tommy Frazier, Eric Crouch probably will be as well. Ditto Jonathan Beasley.

It's very possible that the success of Duante Culpepper (and perhaps McNabb--the jury's still out) will pave the way for Vick to be a dominant NFL QB. But I think a lot of teams learned from the Leaf/Manning debate that smarts is better than overall athleticism any day. In which case, I'd go with Heupel and Brees before I went with Vick.

If I were an NFL team looking for a quarterback right now, my draft list would be:

Heupel
Brees
Vick
Weinke (probably two spots higher if he was even 2 or 3 years younger)

Just my $0.02

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"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
-- Vince Lombardi

[QuikSand]

Interesting topic and discussion.

I've taken some flak for my opinions, some of which has been well grounded, some not. (Perhaps my dreadful typos led folks off course?)

My point above is not that I think these guys are bums. Not at all. Just that the NFL game, in its traditional form, requires a different skill set than the typical college game. Different defensive schemes, different positional responsibilities.

As we all should know from past experience, college success does not necessarily translate into NFL success. QBs in particular will often get into the NFL, start playing, and realize that "nobody's open" [quote from Peyton Manning]. The bottom line is, when you're playing Vanderbilt or Iowa State or even Michigan, you simply aren't facing anything like you are when you're playing the Raiders or the Bucs or even the Browns. The schemes are different, the gameplanning is infinitely more rigorous, and the burdens on the QB are exponentially greater.

Brees is sharp in many respects. He has to learn to read zone coverages better, and he needs to develoep an eye for understanding his several receiver reads. Can he do this? Possibly. If he can do these things, he may be very successful. Right now, he's behind the curve that you would want from a "sure thing" QB draftee (which are exceedingly rare, of course).

Vick is a splendid weapon, no doubt. And he has shown that he has "an arm" -- the type of good arm one needs to throw 40-50 yards downfield with some accuracy. That's really helpful when your receiver is five steps behind the nitwit from Rutgers. It's not nearly as important in the NFL, however, as the QB's ability to successfully hit a simple 10-12 yard out pattern to the sideline. Does Vick have the stature and arm to do that? I don't know, I haven't seen proof of it. Would another yar in college help him develop as a pro prospect? I don't know, but I'm skeptical that he'll really be called upon to do the fundamental things when the 50-yard bomb and the run-for-daylight plays are so much more helpful in the college game.

(Incidentally, while I'ma college football fan, I by no means scour the airwaves to watch these particular teams or players with any regularity. I've seen Brees play in person once, and watched him closely-- and was disappointed. I have not seen Vick play in person, but have seen probably 6-7 of his games on television, and have been deeply impressed with him as a college player.

So, do I think thse guys are no good? Not at all. Would I draft them? Sure, under the right circumstances. Would I draft them with a very tip-top pick? Doubtful.

While this isn't a measure of whether I'm "right," I strongly suspect that the majority of NFL GMs will make the same decision that I do, and that you'll see defensive linemen, running backs, and defensive backs on top of the draft list this year, ahead of these top QBs. Someone will covet each guy enough to take him fairly early, but the consensus will likely be to take the "blue chip" players whatever their position.

Hope that clarifies-- though it may not dull the objections at all.

[ShagVT]

Bias Disclaimer: I am a Virginia Tech grad.

One thing you have to keep in mind when watching Vick is that Tech's system is very different from a pro system. VT will run the ball 70-80% of their plays. Then, after they've run up the middle six plays in a row and have the defense cheating, they run the "Andre Davis Bomb".

This works very nicely since Davis is the Big East 100m dash champ and in the open field can blow away a corner. But he won't be that much faster than NFL corners.

I really like Vick a lot. After years of Will Furrer and Jim Druckenmiller, Vick finally provides the piece that puts Tech over the top. But watching Vick dance around behind an offensive line with four seniors and with one of the faster WRs in the league (Davis) and a wonderful running back (Stith/Suggs) is not a good indication of what he will do in the pros.

Like QuikSand said, he is brilliant at hitting wide open receivers for 70 yard TDs. He has amazing scrambling ability, but how will all of that work when he's in an offense that will throw the ball 45-60% of plays?

[Fritz]

Vivk is good, but always second fiddle to Ronald Curry.

I'll take Curry for my NFL team and make Vick the Franchise QB of my Arena Team. He would rock in Arena!

[Laddin]

Vick will do fine in pro offenses as long as he's given the chance to perform and do what he does.

I hear all this crap about pro style defenses being different from college defenses or vick is not going to be able to run a pro offense because virginia tech runs the ball more than passes.

Scott Frost was drafted as a DB because he switched to DB for part of his final year. Nebraska through the ball when necessary, not because they had to.

Bishop was a 7th round pick, Jeff Blake was a free agent, Trent Green was a 7th round pick and beat out Heath Shuler, the "franchise QB".

Bishop isn't ready to beat out Bledsoe, and may never be that good, but here in Cincinnati, we watched mobile, athletic, scrambling Blake develop into a pro bowl QB.

Being a starting QB in the NFL is a matter of three things.

1) Ability. You have to have ability to make plays.

2) Opportunity. How many QB's had someone else in front of them and had to wait for an injury to get a chance to show it. (See Scott Mitchell)

3) Politics. How long ago would Jimmy Johnson have Benched Marino if he wasn't an icon. after a 1-2 start the Redskins were itching to start Jeff George. Tell me that Randall Cunningham shouldn't be starting over Troy 5int Aikman. Buffalo knows it should be starting Flutie, but they invested so much in Rob Johnson they are FORCED to give him every opportunity.

Lets not forget Kurt Warner and Jeff Garcia, who are 1-2 in passing this year were slated to be back ups last year until an injury opened the door for them. Garcia has 20TD passes this year and San Francisco is talking about needing a Franchise QB. Kurt Warner gets a huge contract, why??? not because he's great, but because he's great in that system. St. Louis has a fast break hit em quick with precise passes offense. What do you think you have to do in Arena Football??? Would Kurt Warner have nearly the stats he does in New York where they set up the run first and play defense???

Okay let me get off my soap box.

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Help, I live in Cincinnati

[OceanMachine]

I hope you're not holding up Jeff Blake as prototype for quarterbacking greatness. For all his success Blake is a flawed QB, and will probably never take a team anywhere. It's simply a fact that there isn't much room for the scrambling, athletic QB in the NFL. Even if they are successful it's generally because they have converted into a pocket passer. In recent years only Kordell Stewart, in his brief shining moment of glory with Chan Gailey, managed to be successful while playing like an athletic college QB.

People have already made this comparison, but this debate really sounds similar to the Manning/Leaf debates of a few years back. If everything falls right I suppose Vick could be better than Brees, but Brees is much more polished and much less of a question mark. I thought Manning should go first then, and I think Brees should go first now.

[Cuckoo]

The record is clear Dawgs. My bad. Perhaps I should slow my rate of scroll...

[Marmel]

If the ultimate measure of success if Superbowls, let's take a look at the starting QB's for the last 5-10 Superbowls:

Kurt Warner
Steve McNair
John Elway
Brett Favre
Troy Aikman
Steve Young
Drew Bledsoe
Chris Chandler
Neil O'Donnell
Jim Kelly

I am sure I missed one or two, but if you look at the list on McNair is a similar type of QB to Vick ("running QB").

I am not saying that there are not great QB's that are like Vick (Cunningham had some terrific season, etc...) but it doesn't seem like that type of QB can lead a team to a Superbowl these days. Of course, maybe Steve McNair is going to start a trend, but I think you can say Eddie George leads that team.

[Dolfan]

Sure a mobile QB is good to have but I'm a firm believer that if your are relying on your QB's legs then you have other problems. Brees to me seems to fit into the NFL mould. The problem is that He'll probably go to a bad team and get killed. Where, Vick at least has a chance with his mobility. It all depends on what kind of team they end up on in the future.

[TheDawgsAreOut]

Originally posted by RadioFriendlyUnitShifter:
[b]I knew the U-Dub fan wouldn't hesitate to bring up TuiasaSOAPSCUM. This is guy is talented, though. Too bad Stanford will shut him down on Saturday. [b]

Just like they "held" him to 500 yards last year? And Deonce Whittaker to 200 on the ground this year? And by the way, a far better way to make fun of him would be "TuiasaSOSO". My point stands that any of 5 quarterbacks could be argued as the best, depending upon need, system, and situation. Take '99 - the Browns came down to Couch or Smith. The Eagles, with the second pick, had no interest in Smith, and were between McNabb and Couch. Denny Green found a perfect quarterback for his system even further down. Even 2nd and 3rd round picks like Shaun King and Brock Huard are starters now. Bishop's only thrown one pass - but it was for a touchdown. You never know with quarterbacks. Huard was a clear first-round pick at the start of his junior year, but got beat up playing behind a terrible o-line with little help from his recievers, and went from "Brilliant Brock" to "Brittle Brock". After a year on the sideline, he again was beloved by Seattle fans, until he got injured in two of his first three starts. IMHO, I'd actually take Dean Houston, by the way. Remember also that scrambling ability is now something scouts praise, instead of dismiss, and this has changed in perhaps only just the last couple of years.


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Hmm, Pac-10 champion Stanford gave up 509 total yards of offense to Tuiasosopo; I wonder how 3-4 Stanford will do against him.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Laddin:

Vick will do fine in pro offenses as long as he's given the chance to perform and do what he does.

...

Trent Green was a 7th round pick and beat out Heath Shuler, the "franchise QB".

...

here in Cincinnati, we watched mobile, athletic, scrambling Blake develop into a pro bowl QB.

On your first (quoted) point, I think that's a pretty tall order. If if turns out that Vick really is lacking in a number of the skills that are ordinarily requisite for an NFL QB, do you let him "do what he does" by saying "we'll just run an offense where we toss out 30-60% of our playbook, allowing the defenses to ignore them too, because this guy can't do those things... but we'll let him do what he does, and we'll see if NFL defenses can stop it better than Rutgers could." If Vick is really just a great athlete and not much of a passer, then that isn't a far-fetched translation. Could it work? Maybe. Is it ripe for a #1 overall draft pick investment? I'd say not.

...

I believe it was Gus Frerotte who was the 7th round pick out of Tulsa who, over time, "beat out" Heath Shuler. Trent Green got the job after injury to/exposition of Frerotte. Of course, Heath Shuler was a very gifted and successful college quarterback who was a sure bet to succeed, wasn't he?

...

On Blake, I'd suggest that there is a difference between what you stated ("Blake... develop[ed] into a pro bowl QB") and what I'd say really happened (Blake was sent to the Pro Bowl).

...

Mostly matters of semantics and fairly modest differences of opinions. I'm sure that some team will make a significant investment in VIck either this year or next, and it will be fascinating to watch. I rather like the guy, and I'd like to see him do well... I just have some slightly more tempered expectations than some others here.

[TroyF]

A couple of things about Vick:

1)pop in a tape of the Florida St. game last year and watch the guy throw the 10-15 yard out. He did it consistently all game. (he averaged 15 yards per completion in the game)

2)Vick doesn't just hit receivers who are open by 5 yards, again, watch a VT game or two.

3)Vick is more polished right now than what Randall Cunningham was after 4 years at UNLV and 2 season playing the 3rd down QB for Jaws. Remember, Vick is a sophmore.

4)I heard the same comments from people about McNair and Culpepper. (big arm, no competition, runs too much, etc.) They seem to have translated to the NFL game just fine.

5)Vick has a stronger arm and is faster than both of the above mentioned players.

6)Is he a guarentee? no way. Is Brees? give me a break. Brees has struggled bigtime in big games against big competition, and he's had more chances than Vick to play in them. He's going to be a great QB, but he's far from a lock.

7)I have the number one pick, I'll take Vick and run. I think he'll succeed. I think he'll play in some pro bowls.

TroyF

[Laddin]

Well Quick Sand

You successfully busted me for mistaking Gus Frerotte for Trent Green. The point still remains.

Heath Shuler was this polished pocket passer that everyone seems so happy to stick behind their lines.

Of Course Brees is a more polished QB right now. Additional time being a starter is sure to do that.

Now which skills was that Vick is lacking in???

He has the number one skill that counts as a QB LEADERSHIP. How many under talented QB's had the leadership skills that over shadowed everything else. (See Joe Montana). I'm not saying Vick is a can't miss prospect. But he's just as talented as any other QB in college and is just as likely to pass or fail as anyone else. People discount a QB because he happens to be mobile and can run out of the pocket if someone else runs in. It sounds like you guys prefer...NO get crunched by some 300 Defensive End.

You can suggest what you want about Blake, but the fact remains that he went to the Pro Bowl off of a 26 touchdown season. If you're not in the rams offense, it's not that easy. Especially with no running game.

Everyone here has there expectations of a QB out of college, but no one has said anything for a reason other than Vick is not a pocket passer.

It seems to me, that just about everytime a non-pocket passer gets the chance to start in the NFL...They seem to do okay.

[FishFan]

I wouldn't waste my first round draft pick on either of these overrated quarterbacks, especially Brees. Hell, he couldn't even throw for more than 200 yards against one of the worse defenses last season. Amazing. With Brees, it's the system that produces then numbers. Tiller has always been that way. Vick, on the other hand, is pure talent, but still has a lot to learn. He should stay at V Tech for four years.

[PineTar]

I don't have much to add, but I had a debate last year w/ a co-worker regarding Brees' standing as a Heisman candidate. I offered up Chad Pennington's stats as a comparison to Brees. They were quite similar as it turns out.

I just don't think that Brees will turn out to be anything special in the NFL. Will he be better than say.. David Klingler? yes Will he be an all-pro? I don't think so

Just an opinion.

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Formerly known as Pinetar / PT

[TheDawgsAreOut]

Well, FOF Central Members are nothing if not consistent. Fishfan didn't take Vick and I did. Truly putting your money where your mouth is.

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The best damn announcer the fake FOFL has ever seen! Check out my cd "Who cares who let them out, I know they're out!" in stores everywhere next month.

[sooner333]

Originally posted by Neuqua:
4. Heupel (honestly, i dont watch much College FB besides Illini so i dont know who he is)

I wonder if after a national championship for Oklahoma, if Neuqua knows who Josh Heupel is yet. For his sake, I hope so.

13-0, National Champions (and for Senator, 63-14).

[ 04-09-2002: Message edited by: sooner333 ]