11-07-2006, 06:37 PM | #1 | |||
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
A libertarian voter on election day
This article speaks to me (bolded the key points)
Quote:
I voted early this morning. In the race for the US House, I wrote in our retiring Congressman as he leans libertarian. For the State House, I voted Libertarian. The rest I left blank. For the 20+ issues on the ballot, I simply shaded in the "NO" circle on every single one. It is my hope that by 2008, more voters would be libertarian-minded since it does have appeal to the whole political spectrum. Last edited by Buccaneer : 11-07-2006 at 06:38 PM. |
|||
11-07-2006, 06:52 PM | #2 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bossier City, LA
|
Quote:
No offense, but I don't see how your votes help your cause. Writing in for a candidate that is retiring is basically throwing away your vote. And there are libertarian-minded candidates. They're called Democrats. And while I would love to have a valid third party, right now that isn't a choice. So why not vote for the party that most appeals to your values? |
|
11-07-2006, 06:55 PM | #3 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
|
Quote:
Do you know what a Libertarian is? A good hint would be if the person gets mad when you talk about raising the taxes on the top 1% of Americans and universal health care, he just may be a Libertarian .
__________________
"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams |
|
11-07-2006, 07:05 PM | #4 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
Biggle must have changed his screen name to Ezarik (unless he's Jesse). But to take the bait, there is something called "principles". Voting for red or blue does not adhere to those principles, esp. after what we've seen the Reps done the past 6 years and the Dems for 30 years during my lifetime. But I'll just excuse you for being clueless.
The majority of eligible voters will stay home today. Many are disgusted with the business of politics and if they do vote, it will be for none of the above (unless you think that changing from one evil to another will solve anything). However, as other articles pointed out, gridlock will be a desirable thing but I am not sure exactly what will achieve more of that. If you think about it, what has much greater impact on our lives are the local issues. That's what many don't realize when they look to Washington DC for "answers" or "solutions". The reason I voted no on all but one issue is the simple mantra the the government (no matter what level) the governs least, governs best. The one issue I voted yes on was to allow a competing cable company to come into one section of town. Breaking up a monopoly is a cool value to vote for. |
11-07-2006, 07:25 PM | #5 | ||
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bossier City, LA
|
Quote:
You're the one who thinks that your little stunt today is going to change anything and you call me clueless? I would think that your vast years of experience would tell you that this is the system we have. Do I like it? Hell no. I would love to have a valid third party in this country but it's not happening any time soon. You can vote your principles all you want, but why complain when nothing changes? Why should a politician listen to you? Especially if you only represent 9 percent of the electorate? Quote:
Are you talking about voters in general, or libertarian voters? And yes, I know what a libertarian is. I also know that in today's world, the Democratic party is closer to libertarian views than the Republican party. |
||
11-07-2006, 07:35 PM | #6 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
In general. Would 35% turnout be expected?
|
11-07-2006, 07:38 PM | #7 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bossier City, LA
|
I've heard that voter turnout has been pretty high, especially with it being an off year.
|
11-07-2006, 07:41 PM | #8 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
Quote:
Officially, yes but according to a recent poll, more than half of those polled lean towards libertarian values. Take me, for example, I am not counted in the 9% since I have never registered for a political party (R, D or L). But to answer your question. Because they will not listen and will cater primarily to their own self-interest of power and corruption, we get the politicians we deserve because voters think re-re-re-re-re-re-re-electing the likes of Byrd, Kennedy, Stevens, etc. will actually make more of a difference than voting what you truly believe is right. |
|
11-07-2006, 07:41 PM | #9 |
College Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
|
Not hardly! Big government tax and spend Democrats being even close to libertarians??? Don't think so at all.
|
11-07-2006, 07:42 PM | #10 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
|
11-07-2006, 07:42 PM | #11 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Apr 2005
|
Quote:
Eh. I wouldn't say that. I think liberation-minded (tend to lean to the center wings of the party line) candidates exist on both sides of the party. Both parties are just too far-winged, in general, to be able to match up with the liberatarian values. |
|
11-07-2006, 07:43 PM | #12 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
Quote:
That would be a more accurate statement. |
|
11-07-2006, 07:44 PM | #13 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bossier City, LA
|
Quote:
And I suppose the big spending Republican government (which has gotten much larger in the past six years) is closer? Especially with that whole getting involved with people's private lives (gay marriage), spying on people, that sort of thing. |
|
11-07-2006, 07:47 PM | #14 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Wisconsin
|
His vote, he can vote how he likes.
For what it is worth, where I could on the ballot today, I voted Libertarian. I've never voted for any party other than Republican or Democratic. If my vote is deemed useless and clueless.. oh well.
__________________
You, you will regret what you have done this day. I will make you regret ever being born. Your going to wish you never left your mothers womb, where it was warm and safe... and wet. i am going to show you pain you never knew existed, you are going to see a whole new spectrum of pain, like a Rainboooow. But! This rainbow is not just like any other rainbow, its... |
11-07-2006, 07:49 PM | #15 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
|
Quote:
I won't defend Republicans, since this is the first time I split my ticket between Gop and Tax Payer Party (also called Constitution Party elsewhere). But if the Libertarian Party starts to gain traction it will come from ticked-off Republicans, not from Democrats. BTW, must be nice to have a 'delete' button. How's that feel? |
|
11-07-2006, 07:50 PM | #16 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
Quote:
Thank you. It's only the Big Party machines that makes you believe you are wasting your vote, not realizing how wasteful it has been sending those politicans to DC for the past 40 years. |
|
11-07-2006, 07:53 PM | #17 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bossier City, LA
|
Quote:
I'm not surprised that most voters have libertarian values. I know I do. I don't want the government telling me what I can and can't do. I know I don't want the government spying on me. I know that I value my rights and don't want the government to take any of them away. That's the same view as most liberals. We might differ on taxes, but we do have some things in common. That was my point. Is libertarian support of Republicans based entirely on taxes and ignoring everything else? So what's your plan for getting more libertarian candidates? You'd better get them in one of the two parties because otherwise they won't stand a chance. Doing your little protest isn't going to change anything. Especially in today's politics where it comes down to voting for the lesser of two evils. Oh, and my last name is Ezarik. Ezarik. I'm not Jesse. |
|
11-07-2006, 07:56 PM | #18 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bossier City, LA
|
Quote:
You're right. It is his vote to do as he chooses. And you're free to vote as you like, too. But I don't understand all the hang wringing when nothing changes. What do you expect to happen? Do you really expect a Libertarian candidate to win? |
|
11-07-2006, 07:59 PM | #19 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
Quote:
It will not be the Libertarian Party. In the most libertarian city in the second most libertarian state in the US (after NH), the Libertarian Party has disbanded. They had gone about it wrong. Instead of working from the grassroots, they tried to make a splash at the top. I fully believe the time is right to get the message out because of widespread voter discontent that is being drowned out by the red/blue hype/myth. Look how many criticize taxation, nation-building spendings, Patriot Act, security over civil liberties, PAC influence, earmarks, morality by legislation, incompetent federal beauracracies, protectionism, govt land grabs, etc. |
|
11-07-2006, 07:59 PM | #20 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
|
Thanks for posting that Bucc. I could never really get a handle on where you were coming from and always felt your position smelled a bit fishy. Now I understand and respect it a lot more.
I don't agree with it but I understand it and can certainly see the appeal in the argument.
__________________
There are no houris, alas, in our heaven. |
11-07-2006, 08:00 PM | #21 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Apr 2005
|
Quote:
You differ on taxes with Bucc, or with the Democrats? |
|
11-07-2006, 08:05 PM | #22 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Wisconsin
|
Quote:
Using that logic, you might as well vote for any candidate that is ahead in all the polls by any significant margin that could be deemed as impossible to overcome. After all, why vote for a loser...
__________________
You, you will regret what you have done this day. I will make you regret ever being born. Your going to wish you never left your mothers womb, where it was warm and safe... and wet. i am going to show you pain you never knew existed, you are going to see a whole new spectrum of pain, like a Rainboooow. But! This rainbow is not just like any other rainbow, its... |
|
11-07-2006, 08:06 PM | #23 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
Quote:
I think the perception has been about legalizing all drugs, opening up all borders and stuff like that. That would be the extremist wing, just like the Reps and Dems have their extremist wings. But thanks for your kind words. |
|
11-07-2006, 08:09 PM | #24 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bossier City, LA
|
|
11-07-2006, 08:11 PM | #25 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
Taxes fall under the general heading of govt revenues/expenditures - not something that is inherently good or bad in of itself. I (and other libertarians) have been criticized for talking about "money" but the point is not about money but how money is used for power and corruption in the federal govt (esp. against local govts, private citizens and busineses). The evil is the increasing power of the federal govt and money (or taxation, "wastes", etc.) are just means to that end. |
11-07-2006, 08:11 PM | #26 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bossier City, LA
|
Quote:
Not really. If you vote for one of the two major party candidates, you know you have at least a hope of winning because it's going to come down to one of those two. But you know going in that a libertarian candidate doesn't stand a chance. |
|
11-07-2006, 08:21 PM | #27 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
|
Quote:
I never understood this argument. Here's a reality check - your one vote won't turn any election. The personal importance of voting goes far deeper than trying to influence the outcome of an individual election. Going against ones values to in a futile attempt to alter election results just makes no practical sense. If people voted their conscious, and not strategically, we'd have more meaningful options on election day. |
|
11-07-2006, 08:27 PM | #28 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
I just read something regarding the exit polls. They are making the conclusion that voting has become more national, as oppose to local as has been said for decades. I don't know about that because in many places, the representative (or at least the party) will not change and there are a lot of hot button state/local issues to vote on. A voter cannot vote for gridlock (if that's a goal) because we can only vote for one candidate. Voters rightly feel frustration about the whole process but if they actually take the time to look at the ballot, there is very little "national" in it.
|
11-07-2006, 08:28 PM | #29 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Wisconsin
|
Not to mention that with campaign finance laws, I believe you need 5% to get funded from a Presidential standpoint. (I'm sure there are probably other laws on the books too but, not sure of them all).
So, outright winning isn't everything. There are other goals to be achieved.
__________________
You, you will regret what you have done this day. I will make you regret ever being born. Your going to wish you never left your mothers womb, where it was warm and safe... and wet. i am going to show you pain you never knew existed, you are going to see a whole new spectrum of pain, like a Rainboooow. But! This rainbow is not just like any other rainbow, its... |
11-07-2006, 08:30 PM | #30 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Astoria, NY, USA
|
i consider myself a libertarian, i'm extremely anti-big gov, but the one area i differ is i am opposed to gay marriage. opposed in the sense that i don't agree w/ it, not in the sense that i would attend a rally. i don't care all that much, but if you ask me my opinion on that issue you would know where i stand.
i don't vote though. if i want to make a point rather than throwing away a vote i would sooner just stay home and post on a message board and try to sway people's opinion's like Bucc does on many occassions. more effective that way. i'm not naive enough to think silly little voting protests will affect anything other than making a voting line longer for someone behind me whose vote will go towards one of the big two party candidates. |
11-07-2006, 08:31 PM | #31 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bossier City, LA
|
Quote:
In theory, yes, but that's not how things are. And if you want to vote your conscience, do so. But again, don't complain when nothing changes. If you want to change the system, you have to work with it. Right now that means working within one of the two main parties. |
|
11-07-2006, 08:35 PM | #32 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
Quote:
Not if you live in states like MA, WV or AK where nothing will ever change with the likes of Byrd, Kennedy or Stevens. |
|
11-07-2006, 08:47 PM | #33 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
|
|
11-07-2006, 08:50 PM | #34 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
|
Quote:
Check out the Constitution Party. A Constitutional named Jore just might win a congress seat in Montana. |
|
11-07-2006, 08:52 PM | #35 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
Quote:
And that's the point. As long as they (or their protoges) are in positions of power in Congress, how will voting for or against them change that? Might as well vote your values. What I'm trying to say that working within the party is all and good except when you have those three I mentioned (as well as others) that will go against what you will believe. |
|
11-07-2006, 09:16 PM | #36 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
|
I always found it distasteful people saying they are "throwing away their vote" by voting for a 3rd Party candidate because they "can't win". What ever happened to democracy and voting for who most agrees with you? Why vote for a person you really really don't like, but you dislike a small amount less than the other guy?
It's a copout to try to bring people into voting for one of the 2 major party candidates. Listen, I voted for a Libertarian for Governor in Georgia. It wouldn't have mattered AT ALL if I voted for the Democrat. The Republican won easily... so why vote for the Dem or Libertarian? And Hell, I despised both candidates enough that if I didn't vote for the Libertarian, I wouldn't have voted for either of them... is that better for you?
__________________
"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams |
11-07-2006, 09:33 PM | #37 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bossier City, LA
|
Quote:
You know, I used to be an idealist, too. I wanted a third party to make a serious challenge. I was hoping Perot would do well in 1992 and Nader in 2000. And what happened? I watched as those two did nothing more than play spoiler. They never had a chance to be elected. What they did was prevent someone else from being elected. Now, maybe you like playing the role of spoiler, but not me. After 2000 it became clear that I could either keep pulling for third parties, or I could work with one of the parties that actually has a chance to win and make changes that way. Change the system from within. |
|
11-07-2006, 09:36 PM | #38 | ||
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
|
Quote:
And got their message out... and showed there was undercurrant of discontent in the major parties. Quote:
GOOD. Maybe they'll pay attention to some of the disenchanted.
__________________
"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams |
||
11-07-2006, 09:37 PM | #39 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
You got to change the people's attitude, knowledge and expectations before the system can be changed.
|
11-07-2006, 09:41 PM | #40 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bossier City, LA
|
|
11-07-2006, 09:42 PM | #41 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bossier City, LA
|
|
11-07-2006, 09:44 PM | #42 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
|
Quote:
I'm still unclear how voting for a candidate who you don't like, but who comes from an established party can "change the system from within" |
|
11-07-2006, 09:46 PM | #43 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
Quote:
Who would you have me vote for? Joel Hefley will pick up quite a number of write-in votes. He has been very critical of his Rep. replacement (for good reasons). His opponent is no better. Joel headed the House Ethics Committee and he went against the wishes of the leadership to act on one of the Rep. Congressman under investigation (forgot which). |
|
11-07-2006, 09:47 PM | #44 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
|
Quote:
Actually... the Republicans and Democrats have gotten a bit more extreme. I think part of that may be in response to 3rd party candidates at the extremes. Though I wonder how voting for the Republican or Democrats would have changed those parties any.
__________________
"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams Last edited by ISiddiqui : 11-07-2006 at 09:47 PM. |
|
11-07-2006, 09:50 PM | #45 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
|
The Constitution party is a bunch of nutjobs - if you're going 3rd, at least go Libertarian.
|
11-07-2006, 09:53 PM | #46 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
|
11-07-2006, 09:59 PM | #47 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seven miles up
|
I live in that congressional district in KY that was mentioned in Bucc's article. I didn't vote today. I was working and I didn't try to get my absentee ballot. I would have voted for the Libertarian candidate for many of the reason's that were mentioned here. Houillion looks like he will grab about 5% of the vote, with Davis (R) retaining the seat 51-44.
I have voted strongly Republican for years, but I have been so frustrated and ticked off by the direction that Bush has lead the party. The main problem that I have is the complete lack of fiscal awareness. I really feel that this article speaks accurately about the way that many moderate republicans like myself feel. Normally I would be dissapointed by the results of the election tonight, but the party needed a wakeup call, they needed to get kicked in the ass, because they have drifted too far off the deep end, and if they want to get some of us back they need to rethink their strategies.
__________________
He's just like if Snow White was competitive, horny, and capable of beating the shit out of anyone that called her Pops. Like Steam? Join the FOFC Steam group here: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/FOFConSteam |
11-07-2006, 10:18 PM | #48 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
Thanks PilotMan, that was well said.
One of the things I have been thinking about today is what was brought up earlier: where would libertarian-minded candidates come from? Historically is has crossed party lines (witness the late Sen. Proxmire, D-WI). It is perceived that it would be more libertarian-conservative as oppose to libertarian-liberal because one of the basic tenets of liberalism is socialism (the opposite of libertarianism). Maybe they will be better defenders of civil liberties but then again, I think about the clamp down on free speech in universities as well as past efforts regarding censorships. Perhaps they are no different in that they are for/against things if it suits them or can be used to their advantage. So if it's not clear that libertarianism comes from a political platform, perhaps it comes from certain parts of the country or certain demographics or certain socio-economics or something else? Just rambling... |
11-07-2006, 10:23 PM | #49 |
College Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: South Florida
|
Only thing I'm concerned about is stopping another major terrorist strike on U.S. soil. Since it's starting to look like the Dems will take Congress (at least the House), I expect to see a mushroom cloud over an American city within the next 5 years or so.
|
11-07-2006, 10:24 PM | #50 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
|
You think Bush will nuke bomb his own people?
__________________
"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
Thread Tools | |
|
|