How important is Customization in the next version of FOF

[nilodor]

Jim has eluded to the fact that it would require a massive rewrite of the inner workings of the game to make leagues sizes and structure in FOF flexible . So time consuming would this rewrite be that it would be essentially be all of the changes the next version would see, bar a few minor tweaks. I've seen alot of posts around wanting for ootp level of customization in FOF but I'm curious just how important it is to everyone.

eg: Being able to:
- Change the number of teams
- Change the number of leagues and divisions
- Include Expansion
- Change schedule length
- Other things along those lines that I can't think of right now, basically a free form league structure.

[Ben E Lou]

I don't really care that much about custom league sizes, although I did very much enjoy being able to run an expansion team in SP. For me personally, it's not a feature that I'd use all that much, but I can't help but wonder if it's the way to go whenever the next version is released.

[st.cronin]

Its definitely something I value in a game, and one of the reasons I haven't bought '07.

[wade moore]

I'm very curious to see how this poll pans out. My gut tells me that there is a very vocal minority kicking and screaming about being able to customize the size, etc. of the league. I think it would be nice, but I think it is a pretty low priority for me.. so, I voted option 3... There seem to be some that say they won't buy another FOF without it, and I just have to think that it is such a minority of the customers.

[Ksyrup]

I will continue to buy the game without it, but I would pay full price if it was the only major enhancement made to the game. That said, it would need to be implemented on a full-scale basis. If not totally free-form, at least something with numerous options. And most importantly, the game should be able to create fictional players with an appropriate league-wide talent distribution, as well as allow for imported rosters.

[twothree]

I would love to see it. However, in my opinion, league customization won't be included in any version of FOF in the near future based upon Jim's previous comments.

I didn't pick an option, since the next time I spend money on a text football game, it will be either for a new college game to go with FOF, or a new pro game to go with BBCF. Right now playing both FOF and BBCF separately has me wanting a complete college to pro experience from either publisher.

[Izulde]

Customizable league size would be nifty, but I'd be much more interested in expansion personally.

[Deattribution]

I voted the third option as well. I would be perfectly fine with just having expansion teams back (especially if there were some way to make them historically accurate for careers that start further back) but other than to run a new team some 20 years down the line, or mimic history it's a feature I'd never touch.

I can understand why others want it, especially for MP but as a player who strictly plays SP I'm content with the structure (although, as stated expansion teams would be nice again) that is NFL-esque style.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by wade moore

...minority of the customers.

See, I wonder if it's a sticking point for non-customers, though. FOFC is a self-selecting group. Yeah, we talk about lots of other stuff, but the majority of us came here because of FOF, which means we value certain things in sims. Let me give you an example of what I mean...

Newbies ask lots of questions in the FOF2K7 forum, and generally get quick responses from veterans. However, when a newbie asks a question in the FOF2K7 forum about play calling, very few veterans ever respond. It's because most of the vets know little/nothing about play calling. The vets were drawn to FOF before there was play calling in it, which means it's a low-priority item to us. If Jim took play calling out of FOF, there's a sizeable contingent at FOFC that wouldn't even notice--myself included. (I can't even picture what that interface looks like. I'm pretty sure the last time I touched it was during the time between the FOF2K4 demo and release.) Point being, FOFC is a board full of people who, for the most part, don't really care much about that feature. As a result, there's vritually no body of knowledge about it.

I can't help but wonder if the same is true for customization. If custom league sizes are a high priority for someone, they checked out FOF1 or FOF2 or FOF2K1 or FOF4 or FOF2K4 or FOF2K7, and wrote it off. They had no reason to come to FOFC.

I just bumped a couple of old threads at OOTP where people were saying that they'd never touch FOF without custom league sizes, with a link to this one. But those are threads about FOF, a game that some of them believe will *never* have custom league sizes. I wonder if those people will even bother to look at the threads that I bumped.

I confess that I don't know much about the market. Maybe there aren't enough people that Jim can touch who would see custom league sizes as a "must-have" feature to justify it. However, I suspect that the desire for a football sim with such a feature is significantly larger than this poll would indicate. Like I said, it's not something I value very much at all, but I'm sure there are people out there who would, for example, LOVE to do a historical replay with the league size changing as it did through history.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola:

Why $49.99??? Has FOF ever cost that?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I'm sure there are people out there who would, for example, LOVE to do a historical replay with the league size changing as it did through history.

/raises hand

[nilodor]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Dola:

Why $49.99??? Has FOF ever cost that?

I couldn't remember what FOF cost and it just seems that every new game costs that, I guess the options should have been more like 33.95 for new, 15.95 for expansion or something like that.

[nilodor]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

/raises hand

Me too.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by nilodor

Jim has eluded to the fact that it would require a massive rewrite of the inner workings of the game to make leagues sizes and structure in FOF flexible . So time consuming would this rewrite be that it would be essentially be all of the changes the next version would see, bar a few minor tweaks. I've seen alot of posts around wanting for ootp level of customization in FOF but I'm curious just how important it is to everyone.

eg: Being able to:
- Change the number of teams
- Change the number of leagues and divisions
- Include Expansion
- Change schedule length
- Other things along those lines that I can't think of right now, basically a free form league structure.

i hear if you want to play CFL-style football there's this other great option for you...

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by nilodor

I couldn't remember what FOF cost and it just seems that every new game costs that, I guess the options should have been more like 33.95 for new, 15.95 for expansion or something like that.

I edited the poll options.

[MizzouRah]

I could care less. There is so much more I want to see enhanced and added by the way of SP immersion.

A definite "no buy" for me with a new version were customization was the only add-on.

[Antmeister]

I have more interest in developing and improving a team and don't care too much about having more league options. Since this is a professional football sim and most of the financial aspects closely resemble the NFL, it doesn't make sense to me to have people select crazy league sizes and still maintain some sort of balance in the league.

Expansions would be okay, but I even think that has to be capped. To me, I would love to see cities lose a team due to financial hardships just to see expansions in the future and not have the league size grow past some sort of cap.

[Kodos]

I'd love to have more customization. Being able to recreate the NFL league structure from its heyday would be fantastic.

[KWhit]

Option 3 for me.

[nilodor]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i hear if you want to play CFL-style football there's this other great option for you...

But then you would need the option for massive expansion, followed by massive contraction and then have a team that exists 2 out of every 3 years.

[MJ4H]

I've decided I'm not buying anymore games that don't at least have a 2d representation of the on-field action.

[Swaggs]

I'd pay for the expansion portion alone.

I like the feeling that, if I play for 50-100 years, my league will evolve in a realistic manner. As population and finances (presumably) grow over a half century, it seems unrealistic for a league to not adjust to the changes.

[st.cronin]

I know I'm not the only one, but to me the logical next step in this franchise is an SI-style universe game, with colleges and pros in the same game.

Maybe even high schools.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I know I'm not the only one, but to me the logical next step in this franchise is an SI-style universe game, with colleges and pros in the same game.

Maybe even high schools.

ssssh. that's secretly why MV moved to the US...to sign up JG!!!

[Noop]

If it would anything like Football Manager (What is it called these days?) I would buy in a heartbeat. His game doesn't really need customization but it does need to increase the immersion factor a lot.

Things like newspaper, mock draft, season previews, rumor mill, scouting reports of this while being dynamic would be great.

I.E. I just won the superbowl but the rumor mill is going crazy about me being fired because of a dispute with the owner who wants to bring in the young hotshot coach from the college ranks. Things like that would be great and make the game very interesting especially being the GM for a cheap owner.

Alas this is nothing but a dream. We can't even get that out dated coaching hire system fixed or changed.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Noop

I...Things like newspaper, mock draft, season previews, rumor mill, scouting reports of this while being dynamic would be great.

I.E. I just won the superbowl but the rumor mill is going crazy about me being fired because of a despite with the owner who wants to bring in the young hotshot coach from the college ranks. Things like that would be great and make the game very interesting especially being the GM for a cheap owner...

Yes!

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by MattJones4Heisman

I've decided I'm not buying anymore games that don't at least have a 2d representation of the on-field action.

That I would gladly pay full price for if it was the only significant new feature. However, customizable league setups just don't interest me that much.

[Flasch186]

are we talking customization or MAXIMUM customization? That's a MAXIMUM distinction that I think needs to be cleared up.

[Atocep]

My problem with putting customization of league sizes, ect into FOF is it means we're missing out on other features that could be added that, IMO, would add a lot more to the game. If it was something that was simple to implement, fine, but Jim has stated it would take significant resources and I just don't think its worth it. Things like the 2D representation, coaching/gameplan overhaul, and an in-game newspaper would be things just about everyone would be happy seeing and would be a clear step forward for the series. I'd see customization as more of a lateral step.

If the next version of FOF is simply FOF2k7 with customization, it will be the first version I don't buy.

[st.cronin]

One thing I'd like to see, and it may be that I'm the only one, is something like the sliders that the old EHM freeware had, for scoring, penalties, etc. DMB also had something like that. This would be for historical purposes, mainly, and I'm also thinking mainly of TCY2. What I envision is when starting up a game, selecting the overall "pass bias" of teams. I guess this would mostly manifest itself in player creation, with more smaller players, and mostly option style qbs.

[JediKooter]

I'm all for the more customizable the game, the better, in my opinion and would be more than happy to pay for having that flexibility in the game and being able to start a league that only has 12 teams or 24 or 28 or...

As for expansion, have the team owners vote and perhaps you can influence their vote as a potential new owner by maybe greasing their palms or donating to their favorite charity or something like that. Of course, have the option to turn that off and be able to jump right into the league with your new team.

Just my 2 pennies.

[Logan]

Customization just is not important to me. Expansion is something I'm interested in, but I don't really tie the two features together. Count me in with the others who would like the SP game improved significantly; Noop's suggestions hit it on the head. Immersion, immersion, immersion. I'm just not into text games like I was back in my high school/college days, due to not having the time to really devote myself to it. It's much easier to fire up the X-box and kill an hour than to maintain a career of FOF.

When I do play FOF now, I spend maybe 5 minutes per hour that I'm playing looking to see what's going on in the league. I'll check out who's leading the lead in rushing, passing, sacks, etc at the midway point and then again when the regular season is over. But that's it. I spend zero minutes during the offseason on analyzing what my division rivals have done...who they've signed, lost, drafted, and how these guys will impact their team. Maybe a newspaper-like feature where there is an "article" for each team would be a good idea.

I'm completely within my own universe when I play FOF...my team, my cap, my coaches. That's pretty much it. If I can learn about other things from around the league, learn more about draft prospects, etc EFFICIENTLY and QUICKLY, that would help tremendously.

[larrymcg421]

Actually the new feature I would kill for is head to head playcalling in MP leagues. If it only had that feature, I'd probably pay up to $49.99 for the game.

Custom league sizes are nice, but I've noticed that highly customizable games generally seem to be the buggiest games, so I don't mind keeping it the way it is. If anything, I would much prefer the option to sim multiple seasons.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

/raises hand

The most fun I ever had playing FOF was FOF2k1 with expansion. Despite all of its flaws as a sim, that makes 2k1 a better sim that every single FOF that has come out since in my opinion. I barely bought the last one, and only did so because I was bored, and only played it for a week or so and never picked it up since. The next game would have to have somethingt that I would truly find new and exciting, like expansion or customable size leagues in order for me to pick it up. Otherwise, I won;t even bother.

[Honolulu Blue]

I was one of the ones that had previously bought all the Jim-approved versions (i.e., not 2002) of FOF, but skipped this one. I was - and remain - underwhelmed by the improved feature set, especially considering it was three years coming. Perhaps when a new version comes along, there will be enough changes, along with the changes I missed, to make it worth a buy. Customization in all its forms would help, but I don't think it would be enough by itself.

I know this is going to sound heretical, but I think Jim would be making a good move in blowing up FOF and starting over. I think the current version of the engine has gone about as far as it can go, and if the new game is more versatile, accurate, immersive, and challenging, who can complain about that?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

are we talking customization or MAXIMUM customization? That's a MAXIMUM distinction that I think needs to be cleared up.

what he said

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

See, I wonder if it's a sticking point for non-customers, though. FOFC is a self-selecting group. Yeah, we talk about lots of other stuff, but the majority of us came here because of FOF, which means we value certain things in sims.

A lot of good stuff in your post, but I trimmed it down so my message wasn't a mile long ...I think you may have a point. My gut feeling is that the effort probably wouldn't increase his sales enough to make it worth it, but this poll isn't going to give a true indication. Those that won't buy FOF without the customization aren't going to be reading this thread.Part of my problem grasping this being a worthwild effort is I just can't understand how that feature could be so all-fire important to someone - but then again, they would probably think I'm absolutely insane for making a fake MP league radio show, so Idano... I do truely wonder how Jim could get a gauge on it. Despite me voting for option 3, odds are (if it was required for MP play) I'd probably get a new version if this was all that was offered, but I personally feel like there is so much more that his time would be better spent on.

Originally Posted by Honolulu Blue

I was one of the ones that had previously bought all the Jim-approved versions (i.e., not 2002) of FOF, but skipped this one. I was - and remain - underwhelmed by the improved feature set, especially considering it was three years coming. Perhaps when a new version comes along, there will be enough changes, along with the changes I missed, to make it worth a buy. Customization in all its forms would help, but I don't think it would be enough by itself.


I know this is going to sound heretical, but I think Jim would be making a good move in blowing up FOF and starting over. I think the current version of the engine has gone about as far as it can go, and if the new game is more versatile, accurate, immersive, and challenging, who can complain about that?

I strongly believe that people who make statements like the above do not truely understand FOF 2k7 and how much is added/improved. New Features/Improvements are not all about what "major" feature can be touted on the back of the box. Thoughts like the above, imo, are what have turned games like Madden into what they are now.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Honolulu Blue

I was one of the ones that had previously bought all the Jim-approved versions (i.e., not 2002) of FOF, but skipped this one. I was - and remain - underwhelmed by the improved feature set, especially considering it was three years coming. Perhaps when a new version comes along, there will be enough changes, along with the changes I missed, to make it worth a buy. Customization in all its forms would help, but I don't think it would be enough by itself.

I know this is going to sound heretical, but I think Jim would be making a good move in blowing up FOF and starting over. I think the current version of the engine has gone about as far as it can go, and if the new game is more versatile, accurate, immersive, and challenging, who can complain about that?

The game engine is just about finalized. I think the next version should focus on improved MP usage, adding (and enhancing) almost all of the off-season stuff, continue to revamp/improve player development and taking a good long serious look at long-career AI roster management.

Having said that, I'll live with FOF2k7 just fine...TCY is collecting dust and I'm all about jumping back into some TCY if it's TCY2.

[King of New York]

I'd like to see it--I just cannot get into historical replays without it--but as much as it pains me to say this, I do not see its inclusion as boosting sales more than marginally--certainly not as much as a) 2d graphical representation of the games, b) head-to-head multiplayer playcalling, or even c) a good new edition of TCY to provide draft classes for FOF would boost sales and broaden the game's audience.

[Ksyrup]

I have no interest in a graphical representation of the game. I watched one game in Solevision when I first bought it and that's it. I haven't even seen what OOTP's in-game interface looks like. Just sim the game and let me see the boxscore.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I strongly believe that people who make statements like the above do not truely understand FOF 2k7 and how much is added/improved. New Features/Improvements are not all about what "major" feature can be touted on the back of the box. Thoughts like the above, imo, are what have turned games like Madden into what they are now.

Here's the thing though...a lot of the people who don't get too deep into FOF, like myself, do so because we don't want to spend all that time developing gameplans, selecting plays, analyzing game logs, box scores, etc. Those are the areas where all the improvements you're referring to are happening. And that's fine...actually, it's better than fine since Jim is intending to make a realistic text sim, and by putting his resources into those areas, he's accomplishing that goal.

For us quick-simmers (and if you're one and you disagree with what I see, please chime in), we're generally fine with seeing the best team end the season with a 12-4 record and the league's highest rusher getting 1800 yards. How he got there isn't a huge deal to me. I'd rather blindly trust the engine to produce the desired results than spend the time trying to find out why things aren't working properly.

I'm not saying Jim should cater to me as a fast-sim, SP guy, but that's where my interest in the series lies.

[Kodos]

I should add, as a guy who would like to see a high degree of customizability, I still don't think it would be worth Jim's time. But I would certainly be happy if he did it.

[molson]

I'd love customization and expansion, but I'd be worried that all the advances in SP AI would be lost when the game is re-structured.

Honestly, if Jim just tweaked the game once a year, making the AI cap management better and better, and adding more subtle new immersion features every year, I'd gladly shell out whatever he wants.

[RendeR]

I'm at the point where something big has to change before I buy another version. I am still using 2k4 and didn't bother getting 2k7 because it really didn't change much.

Things that will get my to buy a new updated version:

custom league/conference/division sizes and names : Needs to be able to scale up from a 4 team league to a 10 division 60 max team design

Along with the above, the ability to have expansion happen as I the player see fit or even add an option to randomly expand.

Head to head playcalling games online

Coaching STAFF, not just the HC and coordinators. With meaningful stats we can really compare.

and lastly (for now) an editable HTML creator, so you can create the output to fit whatever page design you have. Editing the pages that come out of 2k4 while not overly difficult, is tedious and must be done after every dump.

Give me some of THOSE items and I'll buy another copy. update the game otehrwise and I might as well keep 2k4 and save my lone PCgame purchase for something that will entertain me more fully.

I love FOF, I keep starting and restarting careers, but until I can do some of the things above, I won't upgrade.

[Desmond]

It is of the utmost importance to me. If I wasn't in a MP league I would not have bought 2k7.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

zero interest in league customization. I want to see 2 more other things that are more worthwhile:

- complete overhaul of coaching staff (as has been discussed exhaustively in other threads)

- interactive college universe (essentially combining TCY/FOF into one game) either as one game or by add-on expansion.

[Chubby]

shouldn't this be moved to the appropriate forum? I mean, what point is there in having separate forums? FOF topics are ON topic.... sheesh

[nilodor]

Originally Posted by Chubby

shouldn't this be moved to the appropriate forum? I mean, what point is there in having separate forums? FOF topics are ON topic.... sheesh

It was in the other forum to begin with, the big man felt that it would get more views in this forum, since it pertains to people who may not be interested in FOF 2007. I would agree with his reasons.

[Joe]

no, $39.99 was too much for the current game.

[Celeval]

Meh, I'd buy it to get the latest version, but it's not a big deal to me.