Le Tour

[thealmighty]

I may be the only one watching (bless you tivo) this every day (or ever?), but it has been very entertaining and exciting. No Lance type. No idea who will win yet with a big stage tomorrow.

I am enjoying it very much.

(if you do tivo to watch, make sure you record an hour or so extra as it very often finishes later than advertized.)

[Draft Dodger]

People are still having sex.

[Swaggs]

It is a huge time commitment, but it is much more complex sport than people realize. My wife and I watch it each July, as well.

[henry296]

I watched more of the Tour this morning than the British Open. Very compelling during the mountain stages. My biggest complaint is that only about 8 of the 21 days really matter.

Also, no need to Tivo when Versus replays it four times a day.

[Craptacular]

Not being ableto watch Le Tour was one of the bad things about switching to DISH with the Top 120 package. No Versus, but it wasn't worth the extra money. However, now with more Golf tourneys on the Golf channel (also not part of the 120), and more HD availability, I'm probably going to upgrade my service.

A few years ago, you could get live audio of Le Tour online, but now I have to settle for the newsflash play-by-play from the official site.

[thealmighty]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

People are still having sex.

I see how you got to 8k+ posts. Thanks for the contribution.

[thealmighty]

Originally Posted by henry296

I watched more of the Tour this morning than the British Open. Very compelling during the mountain stages. My biggest complaint is that only about 8 of the 21 days really matter.

Also, no need to Tivo when Versus replays it four times a day.

Agreed on the days that matter.

As for Tivo, I can watch the days that don't matter in an hour and I don't watch the same commercial 700 times in the three weeks.

[Toddzilla]

They still hold this? I thought since Lance Armstrong retired they quit running the race. Oh, well...

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by thealmighty

Agreed on the days that matter.

I have to disagree, two of the top favorites (Vinokourov, Moreau) lost this year's event on one of those 'unimportant' days. Not to mention that last year's soon-to-be-declared-winner won it in one of those doesn't-matter-stages.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by thealmighty

I see how you got to 8k+ posts. Thanks for the contribution.

sorry. I would have done something REALLY funny like put a clever location in my profile, but it wouldn't have counted towards my post count.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

People are still having sex.

make sure you grease your chain

[thealmighty]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

sorry. I would have done something REALLY funny like put a clever location in my profile, but it wouldn't have counted towards my post count.

I wish I were you.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by thealmighty

I wish I were you.

I know.

[21C]

Yeah, I've been watching this every day so far.

It was a big thrill watching Aussie Cadel Evans make a run for the yellow jersey but he hasn't been able to match it with the big boys in the mountains when the attacks came. He might have a small chance in the final time trial but it could be over for him by then.

[scooter]

I've been watching the race and enjoying it a lot. It's been fun not really knowing who is going to win this thing. There doesn't seem to be one team that is strong enough to get the yellow jersey and protect it like Team Postal used to do. Rabobank have been doing a pretty good job though (hats off to Michael Boogerd and Thomas Dekker).

I was saddened to see this bit of news this morning though:

hxxp://www.velonews.com/tour2007/details/articles/12910.0.html

It looks like this year's tour is going to have questions marks all over it as well. I really wish there was a way they could clean up the sport (or just let everyone do what they are going to do anyway). It's starting to become a really sad joke.

[Blade6119]

The duel between rasmussen and the young postal rider yesterday was great...i was sure the young kid would get away on the 4th, and the stupid police cars slowed him down...really a downer, when i think he would have taken over the lead(overall, not the stage) without that stop

[thealmighty]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I know.

You must be an extremely blissful individual.

[thealmighty]

I can't wait for tomorrow. You KNOW everyone will have to try to crack Rasmussen. There should be massive attacks all day.

[scooter]

I still think Contador has a chance, but he's got to get Rasmussen to crack. I'm with Blade, I think if he had had a little more mountain to play with yesterday, he might have been able to drop Rasmussen.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid tomorrow will be overshadowed by Astana's whole team dropping out of the race. Even with Vino cheating, he made for a more exciting race. Everyone below 4th place moves up a spot too with Kloden being removed as well.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by thealmighty

I can't wait for tomorrow. You KNOW everyone will have to try to crack Rasmussen. There should be massive attacks all day.

Probably, but I don't see one of the top5-10 riders present in a breakaway before the 2nd to last mountain.

Of course, 2 of the top10 riders have quit Le Tour today, so the odds of it happening significantly decreased.

[thealmighty]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Probably, but I don't see one of the top5-10 riders present in a breakaway before the 2nd to last mountain.

Of course, 2 of the top10 riders have quit Le Tour today, so the odds of it happening significantly decreased.

They didn't so much quit as they were forced out, however, when the team withdrew.

You know you will be tested if you win a stage. Why would you do something like blood-doping and win the stage if you knew you would be tested upon winning? I just don't get it.

[scooter]

I think just about everyone is doing something to themselves just to compete. I believe these guys think they are (and probably are) so far ahead of the testers that they think they won't get caught. It's the only explanation I can think of as to why they would appear so stupid in something like this.

[rkmsuf]

Enough of this Sunday stroll

[molson]

Originally Posted by scooter

It looks like this year's tour is going to have questions marks all over it as well. I really wish there was a way they could clean up the sport (or just let everyone do what they are going to do anyway). It's starting to become a really sad joke.

I think so many being caught actually speaks highly of the sport's efforts to clean things up. Baseball isn't "cleaner" just because they only test twice a year, it's essentially an IQ test, and hardly anyone gets caught.

It's kind of like college sports teams' graduation rates. A low graduation rate can actually speak more highly of the school, since they're not just giving diplomas away.

[AlexB]

Latest news Alexander Vinokourov tests positive for two blood sources after his time trial win.

Basically they found evidence in the sample that he boosted his own blood with a similar donor blood...

[AlexB]

Dola,

Not what the tour needed - the leader with question marks and the outstanding performer two of the last three days being caught positive. I was watchign yesterday thinking Vino's time trial, dropping of 30 minutes and then recovery yesterday was remarkably Landis like, and so it seems to have been proved.

Astana have pulled out, so not only did Vino destroy his legacy, he also royally shafted Kloden this year, amking him wait, losing excess time, then getting him withdrawn. I would like to be a fly on that wall.

It makes you wonder what these guys are thinking - how would he not get tested after winning a stage? I would bet he'll be found positive yesterday as well.

The commentators over here were just about having orgasms over his amazing bravery and performance: it does leave a really bad taste in the mouth after all of the attempts to clean things up.

[thealmighty]

Another team is out because one of their riders was caught, this time testosterone levels. Cofidis rider Cristian Moreni failed a drug test.

Maybe if they just pack-up shop for a year and come back then, they can clean this shit up.

[thealmighty]

HOLY SHIT!!!!!

Rasmussen is out of the tour. WTF??? This is beyond ridculous.

[Ryan S]

Can cycling ever recover from this mess?

I can't see much point in continuing the 2007 race right now...

[Blade6119]

Give them credit, rasmussen hasnt been caught doing anything. Hes as "not guilty" as bonds. They are actually trying to clean up the sport, ensuring cheaters dont win or break records in cycling.

[AlexB]

Wow. Rasmussen is very dodgy - I kinda feel sorry for him as he hasn't been caught, but all of his statements are 'I have never tested positive' rather than 'I have never taken drugs'.

But saying you are in Mexico when in fact you are in Italy is not going to convince prople of your innocence, especially when you describe this as an 'administrative error'

This has happened before, and people have said it is showing that it is trying to purge the cheats from the sport. The other take is that they have tried and there are still problems, and we likely won't know which is true for a few more years yet.

Once again, unless Contador, or more likely Evans or Leipheimer does an amazing time trial that would have taken 5 minutes from Rasmussen if he had ridden, the winner will be have a hollow victory...

[MIJB#19]

Rabobank pulled Rasmussen (and fired him as well) because he came clean on lying about his whereabouts (Italy rather than Mexico, as Jari R's S wrote). These are the facts. What happened here didn't even matter about whether he got caught or not got caught using forbidden substances.

Stopping the Tour sounds absurd to me. Especially after kicking out the people who have proven to be cheaters. Yeah, there are probably a lot more of the 142 remaining riders who cheat, but it sounds wrong to rob them of their jobs. Or to punish those people who still enjoy watching the race, booked an expensive flight to Paris to watch the Tour finish. And what not.

[Buccaneer]

Why they even continue this stupid charade is beyond me. Cycling should go the way of Track and Field for the complete joke it has become.

[gkb]

I haven't watched any of this and I don't, as a rule, follow cycling at all. The last few days of riders being caught cheating and whole teams withdrawing from the race got me thinking. Did Lance cheat?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by gkb

I haven't watched any of this and I don't, as a rule, follow cycling at all. The last few days of riders being caught cheating and whole teams withdrawing from the race got me thinking. Did Lance cheat?

The frequency in number of riders caught in two-and-a-half weeks is basically on par with the rest of the season so far, I think. It's just that with Le Tour going on, the big public hears about it. The rest of the season it doesn't sell newspapers, these weeks it sure does. So in a way there's nothing new. Looking at past seasons, it's well-known that riders are being tested far more often these days, so given the increase of tests, one should expect to hear more news on cheaters getting caught.

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by gkb

Did Lance cheat?

Who knows? The only thing we do know is that he never failed a drugs test. We will probably never know if he was doping, and if he was totally clean it is a tragedy that his incredible career is shrouded in suspicion.

The problem with much of the "evidence" against Armstrong right now is that it is pretty weak and mostly appears to be coming from people who have been out to get him for a while. Armstrong strikes me as the kind of guy who will make enemies easily as he appears to be difficult to get along with.

The "positive" test reported in the French media a few years back was a complete joke.

[JW]

In defense of Lance, Ryan S mentions people out to get him. A lot of people have been out to get Lance, and have never gotten anything to stick. Maybe he did cheat, but the preponderance of the evidence right now is that he did not.

[Brillig]

Instead of cycling, they should just run the competitors through a gauntlet of drug tests, and the last one clean gets the trophy.

Oh, wait...

[JonInMiddleGA]

At the rate it's going, I think I've figured out who's going to win this year.

Spoiler

[Glengoyne]

That was simply abuse of the Spoiler tag.

[Glengoyne]

Oh I actually popped into the thread to talk about Rasmussen.

First, as I understand it, he was under suspicion because he missed pre-race testing...Somehow this was assuaged because he was in Mexico. How is that an excuse?

Then, when it comes out that he was in Italy, he withdraws.

I don't get it. Actually I understand it, except for the part about visiting Mexico somehow excuses a rider from pre-race drug testing.

Oh on the Vino bit. He is facing a four year ban now. Could it be longer? During his stage win, I mentioned to my wife that after what Landis did last year, it is difficult to look at a huge performance like that and not question whether the rider had cheated. Too bad this one goes in the loss column for Vino now.

[MartinD]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Oh I actually popped into the thread to talk about Rasmussen.

First, as I understand it, he was under suspicion because he missed pre-race testing...Somehow this was assuaged because he was in Mexico. How is that an excuse?

Then, when it comes out that he was in Italy, he withdraws.

I don't get it. Actually I understand it, except for the part about visiting Mexico somehow excuses a rider from pre-race drug testing.

If I'm reading the details of this story correctly, the issue here is that Rasmussen lied to his team regarding where he was at the time - he told Rabobank that he was in Mexico when he was actually in Italy. Once the team were told that, they basically sacked him on the spot and withdrew him from the Tour (for breaking internal team rules - technically speaking, his withdrawal and sacking are not drugs-related (in all likelihood, however, there will probably be performance enhancing substances involved somewhere...))

Martin

[Critch]

Apparently T-Mobile and Gerolsteiner have both announced that they wont be sponsoring a team after their current deal runs out, the current publicity isn't what they want connected to their name.

Team sponsors fleeing combined with a chunk of the recognizable riders being banned can't be good for the sport.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Ryan S

The "positive" test reported in the French media a few years back was a complete joke.

Why?

It was an old test and it was private information that shouldn't have been released, but what about the actual test and results make it a complete joke?

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Why?

It was an old test and it was private information that shouldn't have been released, but what about the actual test and results make it a complete joke?

I can't quite remember the full story, and I don't have time to research it again, but if I remember correctly:

A - The test took place several years after the samples were taken
This makes me dubious of the test, but on its own would not lead me to dismiss it.

B - The label on the sample had a code number which was allegedly the same as Armstrong's documentation.
This strikes me as an exceptionally easy thing to fake. Without these "documents" there is no case to answer.

C - There was no B sample to prove innocence/guilt.
There is no chance for someone to prove the claims wrong without another sample.

D - The information was leaked.
This information was supposed to be private, so if someone has made it public I am forced to question their agenda and doubt their honesty.

With so many people lining up to fire shots at Armstrong, I am extremely sceptical of anything that does not have rock solid evidence behind it.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Ryan S

Can cycling ever recover from this mess?

Yes, I think, but the governing bodies (body?) need to do something drastic. The testing regime already in place is actually pretty stringent, so I'm not sure what more can be done there, but it still boggles me a bit that being found to be doping carries a penalty of a finite duration. So you see guys get caught, take a couple of years off from pro cycling, and then come back. I guess the next step (to me) would be to make confirmed first offenses lifetime bans.

[Sgran]

The thing about Armstrong was that the test where he supposedly tested postive did not exist when he gave the sample. I don't remember all the details either, but the allegations were pretty convincing, especially now that we know that all of the top riders are doing it (remeber how they dropped like flies last year?), just like all of the home-run kings were. My opinion now is that noone could have won the Tour in the last decade or so without doping to some degree. It's sad, but I still enjoy watching the race when they're fighting up those mountains. The cream and clear may help muscles recover faster, but unless they've got motors on those bikes it still must be torture.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Ryan S

I can't quite remember the full story, and I don't have time to research it again, but if I remember correctly:

A - The test took place several years after the samples were taken
This makes me dubious of the test, but on its own would not lead me to dismiss it.

B - The label on the sample had a code number which was allegedly the same as Armstrong's documentation.
This strikes me as an exceptionally easy thing to fake. Without these "documents" there is no case to answer.

C - There was no B sample to prove innocence/guilt.
There is no chance for someone to prove the claims wrong without another sample.

D - The information was leaked.
This information was supposed to be private, so if someone has made it public I am forced to question their agenda and doubt their honesty.

Of those, I'd argue that only B is actually meaningful.

Yes, the test was several years old. That's because it was impossible to test for those drugs when the sample was originally taken. We know that cheaters will use enhancers that they know (or think they know, in the case of Balco) can't be tested for. If somebody develops a urine test for HGH a few years from now and they go back and test Sosa's samples and find them dirty, do we shrug it off because the sample is old?

Likewise, the missing B sample may mean that you can't use the test against Armstrong in a formal setting, but in the court of common sense it doesn't mean much. With apologies to Marion Jones, the B sample almost never changes the results. And besides, if you believe someone would frame Armstrong then they would have just altered his B sample anyways.

The information being leaked doesn't mean anything in terms of it's accuracy. Barry Bonds' testimony was leaked too, and by somebody with questionable honesty and an agenda. That doesn't mean it wasn't accurate.

Originally Posted by Ryan S

With so many people lining up to fire shots at Armstrong, I am extremely sceptical of anything that does not have rock solid evidence behind it.

There are so many people lining up to fire shots at him because there are so many people who believe he cheated. While obviously not conclusive, the long line of people who say he did it should be taken as an indicator of his guilt, not his innocence.

This is the problem with doping discussions in general (and from here on in, I'm not taking aim at Ryan S specifically). We all agree that we want the cheaters to be caught, but when our guy gets busted we always find a way out for them. Giants fans do it, Sosa/McGwire fans do it, Carl Lewis fans did it, Merriman fans do it, even some Landis fans are doing it. As long as the athelete doesn't admit to cheating, it's always possible to spin the story enough that there's a plausible chance of innocence.

We've seen multiple cases where even a failed test isn't enough to convince people of guilt. There's always an out, an excuse, a conspiracy. If you want to believe somebody's innocent, then there is no such thing as "rock solid evidence" short of a confession. Come up with an explanation no matter how far-fetched, find a doctor who'll say that you can't 100% rule it out, and then lay low for awhile and people will let it go.

The one thing I'll say about Armstrong is that at least, unlike most other cheaters, he's willing to say he didn't do it. In a twisted way, that's somewhat admirable. He doesn't say "I never failed a test" or "I'm not here to talk about the past", he comes right out and denies his drug use in the strongest possible language. He's willing to go all the way with it, which means he may be a liar but at least he's not openly insulting our intelligence like Bonds does.

[Northwood_DK]

Its beyond me why big companies still want to sponsor theses teams and have there names linked to doping. When I see the name Festina I automatically think of doping and not watches.

In Danish medias Rasmussen is now denying being in Italy and is being thrown out of the Tour because of a comment from a former Italian cyclist Davide Cassani made to Danish television.

It also have to be mentioned that he is married to a Mexican girl and have been prepering for the Tour in Mexico the last few years but it of cause dosent explain why he was ”gone” for 22 days.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

There are so many people lining up to fire shots at him because there are so many people who believe he cheated. While obviously not conclusive, the long line of people who say he did it should be taken as an indicator of his guilt, not his innocence.

There are a lot of people who are convinced without any direct evidence that he's guilty. There's only a small amount of circumstantial evidence. On top of that, there's an unhealthy obsession in some parts with proving that he was dirty, which makes the possibility of a testing error higher in my mind.