9/11 Mastermind Caught

[Easy Mac]

Linky

First off, its about damn time we caught someone important. Hopefully this will lead to the capture of Bin Laden. Personally, I think the guy might die before giving up Bin Laden, but it is better than nothing. And maybe this will focus the war back on stopping real threats to America (al quaeda) and not on stopping minimal threats (saddam).

2nd, I was watching the news about it, and some people were talking about his capture (the station will go nameless). They talked about how we also had his children in custody. Then, one of the jackasses on TV said that if Mohammed fails to talk, we should use his kids as "leverage". It was said in a way not to imply simply keeping him away from his children, but in a manner threatening to them.

If that's the way he meant it, it sickens me. We are going to tell him we'll possibly hurt his children if he doesn't give us information? How does this make us any better than Saddam or the terrorists? If the US does do this, use his children in such a way, then there is no conceivable way we should invade Iraq or anyone else on the basis of them doing similar things. To even suggest that we should do this to his children sicken me, I don't care if they're 5 or 50, you do not threaten people's children. Sorry for the soapbox, but I was just appalled by what was said.

[astralhaze]

Hell, Israel has been doing things like that for years.

[Easy Mac]

And yet we turn a blind eye, but we are appalled when enemies try similar tactics. I'm not saying whether or not people do it, I'm just saying I'm against doing such a thing.

[Tekneek]

Big surprise. People in this country don't understand the idea of holding yourself to a higher standard than your enemies do. Everything is ok as long as it is done to help the 'home team.' The ends justify the means, and all that.

However, it is an extreme evil if the same rationalizations are used against us by our enemies. Same old stuff. The USA is not morally superior to anyone else, and probably morally inferior to more than a few when it comes to this. Consistency in core beliefs/policies/actions are not important to many.

[astralhaze]

This is, I think, a very important discussion because I think it gets to the very core of why much of the world hates the United States. Just look at Iraq, for instance. Up until the minute he invaded Kuwait he was considered an important ally. We knew full well what type of person he is, knew that he was gassing his own people and Iran, etc. We didn't give a hoot though because he was our ally. Once he disobeyed orders, he became the great satan. Now, a reason being offered for us attacking him is because he represses and gasses his own people. WE KNEW THIS 20 YEARS AGO WHEN HE WAS OUR ALLY. There are so many more examples of this that I won't even begin. Yes, I agree completely with your point. The United States has very slippery morals. Basicaly, the government adjusts them to the needs and wants of power and the public just lets it fall down the memory hole.

[rexalllsc]

If we don't get outselves down to the terrorists level, we'll never win. It's the only way they play. There are no rules.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by rexalllsc
If we don't get outselves down to the terrorists level, we'll never win. It's the only way they play. There are no rules.

So you fight terrorism by becoming terrorists? Where is your moral high ground then?

[AgPete]

Was it FOX, Easy Mac?

[AgPete]

Originally posted by rexalllsc
If we don't get outselves down to the terrorists level, we'll never win. It's the only way they play. There are no rules.

Yeah, we've seen the wonders it's done for Israel. They've stopped terrorism in its tracks.

[Easy Mac]

Yes it is FOX, and I will admit I occasionally agree with them (damn, that sounds bad), but mainly laugh (Bill O'Reilly is hilarious). For some reason, we don't get MSNBC here, but it is a Republican school

We only get that and CNN, and I'll at least admit FOX isn't scared to hit all the issues (unlike the CNN fluff), but on this one I disagree. I understand for wanting to save more lives, but there are some things that just shouldn't be done, and its a thin line to walk.

Note: This isn't a republican/democrat thing. I'm sure whoever would be in power would stoop morally low to do things, or have things done to them.

[AgPete]

LOL, I guess I'm a news junkie. I read your comment and FOX was the first station to come to mind. I don't watch much MSNBC either but FOX is the only station that is half opinion, half news so any comment like that is probably on FOX. FOX loves to sensationalize its opinions to pull in viewers from the other stations.

[astralhaze]

FOX and sensationalism? Never

[Ajaxab]

It's naive to think that all news is not opinion. There's no such thing as a fact when it comes to news. When people make reports they have to use language and language will take the slant people want it to take whether they're conscious of it or not.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by Ajaxab
It's naive to think that all news is not opinion. There's no such thing as a fact when it comes to news. When people make reports they have to use language and language will take the slant people want it to take whether they're conscious of it or not.

Absolutely agree.

[AgPete]

Originally posted by Ajaxab
It's naive to think that all news is not opinion. There's no such thing as a fact when it comes to news. When people make reports they have to use language and language will take the slant people want it to take whether they're conscious of it or not.

I completely agree with you Ajaxab. I feel sometimes though that FOX like most of the media today (especially radio) disguises controversy and sensationalism as brave non-biased reporting. I guess that's what people want nowadays. Rupert Murdoch didn't become a billionaire because he's stupid. I love what FOX has done for sports news stations.

[Easy Mac]

Bush's reaction from the capture of Mohammed (from CNN.com):

"that's fantastic"

is anyone imagining Bush saying this, and laughing at the picture in your head. I'll tell you what, Bush may not be the smartest man, but he sure does have some charisma and mannerism. I need sleep.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by astralhaze
Hell, Israel has been doing things like that for years.

And another idiot dares to open his mouth.

Tarkus

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by AgPete
Yeah, we've seen the wonders it's done for Israel. They've stopped terrorism in its tracks.

The problem is that Israel refuses to go down to the level of the terrorists. Whether it's world pressure or moral inclination, believe me if Israel were allowed to stoop to the level of the terrorits there would be no terrorists left in the area. Just ask those Arab nations that fought in the Six Day War.

Tarkus

[Easy Mac]

I've read numerous reports about Israeli torturing children whom they detain, and to intentionally firing on them. Just b/c you're an army doesn't mean you can't be terrorist.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
I've read numerous reports about Israeli torturing children whom they detain, and to intentionally firing on them. Just b/c you're an army doesn't mean you can't be terrorist.

Yeah, and I'd love to know your reliable sources for that crap.

Tarkus

[andy m]

Originally posted by Tarkus
The problem is that Israel refuses to go down to the level of the terrorists. Whether it's world pressure or moral inclination, believe me if Israel were allowed to stoop to the level of the terrorits there would be no terrorists left in the area. Just ask those Arab nations that fought in the Six Day War.

Tarkus

there would also be no Israel as to do such a thing would completely destabilize the middle east and throw it into turmoil.

why do so many people think that these kind of actions have no consequences? that everything is so simple and cut and dried.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by andy m
there would also be no Israel as to do such a thing would completely destabilize the middle east and throw it into turmoil.

why do so many people think that these kind of actions have no consequences? that everything is so simple and cut and dried.

I never implied they should come down to the level of terrorists. I was just stating what I felt would happen if they did. The reasons they don't is because it's not their nature and the very fact you mentioned; there would be significant negative consequences.

Tarkus

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by Tarkus
And another idiot dares to open his mouth.

Tarkus

Outstanding rational response. How can I argue with that type of logic and evidence. Wow, you have absolutely proven your superiority to me. I bow and quiver below your intellect.

astralhaze

[astralhaze]

Noam Chomsky, based on reports from international human rights organization and the Los Angeles Times, on the Sabra and Shattila massacres.

"The forces that Israel had mobalized were sent into the now defenseless camps for 'mopping up' and to 'clear out terrorist' nests' (Sharon). For anyone with minimal acquaintance with the circumstances, it was not hard to imagine what would happen, and by Thursday night it was clear that a massacre was in progress. Throughout Thursday night, Israeli flares lighted the camps while the militias went about their work, methodically slaughtering the inhabitants. The massacre continued until Saturday, under the observation of the Israeli military a few hundred yards away. Bulldozers were used to scoop up bodies and cart them away or bury them under ruble. One 'mass grave that has been specially bulldozed' was directly below an Israeli command center, with a view from an Israeli rooftop position 'directly onto the grave and the camp beyond.' IDF troops 'stationed less than 100 yards away, had not responded to the sound of constant gunfire or the sights of truckloads of bodies being taken away from the camps,' and told Western journalists that 'nothing unusual' was going on while mingling with Phalangists resting between missions inside the camps."

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by astralhaze
Outstanding rational response. How can I argue with that type of logic and evidence. Wow, you have absolutely proven your superiority to me. I bow and quiver below your intellect.

astralhaze

Has as much evidence as your initial statement. You're the one making the claims. Why don't you try backing them up with facts?

Tarkus

[astralhaze]

See above.

Edit: and you are the one who busted out the insults g

[Tarkus]

Again, make sure you have your facts straight.

"The Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia was responsible for the massacres that occurred at the two Beirut-area refugee camps on September 16-17, 1982. Israeli troops allowed the Phalangists to enter Sabra and Shatila to root out terrorist cells believed located there. It had been estimated that there may have been up to 200 armed men in the camps working out of the countless bunkers built by the PLO over the years, and stocked with generous reserves of ammunition.

When Israeli soldiers ordered the Phalangists out, they found hundreds dead (estimates range from 460 according to the Lebanese police, to 700-800 calculated by Israeli intelligence). The dead, according to the Lebanese account, included 35 women and children. The rest were men: Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians. The killings were perpetrated to avenge the murders of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed in a bomb attack earlier that week.

Israel had allowed the Phalange to enter the camps as part of a plan to transfer authority to the Lebanese, and accepted responsibility for that decision. The Kahan Commission of Inquiry, formed by the Israeli government in response to public outrage and grief, found that Israel was indirectly responsible for not anticipating the possibility of Phalangist violence. Israel instituted the panel's recommendations, including the dismissal of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon and Gen. Raful Eitan, the Army Chief of Staff.

The Kahan Commission, declared former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, was "a great tribute to Israeli democracy....There are very few governments in the world that one can imagine making such a public investigation of such a difficult and shameful episode."

Recently, efforts have been made in Belgium to try Sharon for his role in what happened in Lebanon. The appellate court there, however, threw out the case.[fn Radio Free Europe/Radio Free Liberty, (June 26, 2002).] The European campaign appears designed to smear Israel in general, and Sharon in particular, and is particularly odious given that Israel's own democratic judicial institutions already dealt with this tragedy.

Ironically, while 300,000 Israelis demonstrated in Israel to protest the killings, little or no reaction occurred in the Arab world. Outside the Middle East, a major international outcry against Israel erupted over the massacres. The Phalangists, who perpetrated the crime, were spared the brunt of the condemnations for it.

By contrast, few voices were raised in May 1985, when Muslim militiamen attacked the Shatila and Burj-el Barajneh Palestinian refugee camps. According to UN officials, 635 were killed and 2,500 wounded. During a two-year battle between the Syrian-backed Shiite Amal militia and the PLO, more than 2,000 people, including many civilians, were reportedly killed. No outcry was directed at the PLO or the Syrians and their allies over the slaughter. International reaction was also muted in October 1990 when Syrian forces overran Christian-controlled areas of Lebanon. In the eight-hour clash, 700 Christians were killed — the worst single battle of Lebanon's Civil War. These killings came on top of an estimated 95,000 deaths that had occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982."

Tarkus

[Tarkus]

And here's some more on what precipitated the entire situation in Lebanon.

"The PLO had repeatedly violated the July 1981 cease-fire agreement. In the ensuing 11 months, the PLO staged 270 terrorist actions in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, and along the Lebanese and Jordanian borders. Twenty-nine Israelis died, and more than 300 were injured in the attacks. The situation in the Galilee became intolerable as the frequency of attacks forced thousands of residents to flee their homes or to spend large amounts of time in bomb shelters. During this period, Israel launched retaliatory raids against PLO bases in Lebanon.

After Israel launched one such assault on June 4-5, 1982, the PLO responded with a massive artillery and mortar attack on the Israeli population of the Galilee. On June 6, the IDF moved into Lebanon to drive out the terrorists.

Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger defended the Israeli operation: "No sovereign state can tolerate indefinitely the buildup along its borders of a military force dedicated to its destruction and implementing its objectives by periodic shellings and raids."

"On Lebanon, it is clear that we and Israel both seek an end to the violence there, and a sovereign, independent Lebanon," President Reagan said June 21, 1982. "We agree that Israel must not be subjected to violence from the north."

Documents found by the IDF in Lebanon during the operation showed that terrorist groups had made detailed plans for shelling towns in northern Israel. The following are translations of two documents found at PLO headquarters in Sidon. Both were dated July 1981:

Name of Shelled Target: Kiryat Shemona
Number of Salvos: 17 shells in 2 portions, each portion 120mm
Unit in Charge: Artillery of the Joint Forces of the South.

To: El-Haj Ismail
Greetings for the Revolution!
The Supreme Military Council has decided to concentrate on the destruction of Kiryat Shemona, Metullah, Dan, Shear Yashuv and Nahariya and its vicinity.
Kiryat Shemona: will be distributed among all the platoons and will be shelled with improved "Grad" shells.
Metullah: will be shelled with 160mm mortars (Palestine Liberation Front-As-Saiqa).
Nahariya and its vicinity will be shelled with 130mm guns-Artillery Battalion 1
Dan and Shear Yashuv: will be the responsibility of the eastern sector.
Revolution until victory!"

Tarkus

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by astralhaze
See above.

Edit: and you are the one who busted out the insults g

And intentionally or not you are the one that's trying to incite anti-Semitic or anti-Israel sentiment. The guy talks about the US and Bin Laden and you find it necessary to make an off the cuff remark about Israel torturing children.

Tarkus

[astralhaze]

a1 source?

b2 That is a complete whitewash of the facts, pure and simple. It overlooks, among other things:

At the time of the massacre the explanation offered up was not "to enter Sabra and Shatila to root out terrorist cells believed located there." The explanation was that they were trying to protect the civilians from PLO violence. Quite Orwellian in light of what happened.

Second, the West Beirut camps were occupied by the sworn enemies of the violent Phlangist militia. The fact that Israel allowed them to enter without having some idea of the consequences is a tad naive. If you put a poisonous snake in to a child's bed and it bit the child who then died, should you be found responsible?

Israeli command posts, again, had a clear view of the scene of the massacres. The massacres started on Thursday night. They were not ordered out until Saturday night, and only then after U.S. pressure. The media knew about them on Friday. Do you claim the Israeli's did not know? Do you think the Israeli's had no idea what the bulldozers were being used for?

As to the claim that it was in an effort to root out "200" terrorists, at the time the claim was 2,000, I guess it has now changed considering Israel sent in 150 Phalangists. In any case, there were a grand total of 2, yes 2, casulties among the Phalangists. Sounds like some pretty stiff resistance eh?

Ah yes, the Kahan report, the great sign of Israeli democracy. Unfortunately, the Kahan report left a few things out. Such as the report in the Jerusalem Post that American intelligence had provided "hard intelligence information...were well aware of the brutal killings many hours before the IDF actually went in to the camps." Or the statement from General Amos Yaron indicating that "Eitan showed no reluctance to allow the militia units to remain in Sabra and Shatila until the next morning. He testified that the main reason the Phalangist units were ordered out of the camps on Saturday, September 18, was not fear of civilian deaths but because unnamed American officials were pressing the Israeli's to have them removed."

I could go on. The facts are simply not on your side on this one. The Israeli's clearly knew exactly what was going to happen if they sent in the Phalangist forces and even on the remote chance that they did not, they were well aware of what was going on, long before they ordered them out. This is just one example of Israeli terrorism. I could recite countless more, but I am sure you will just refer to me as an idiot liberal and we will be back to square one.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by Tarkus
And intentionally or not you are the one that's trying to incite anti-Semitic or anti-Israel sentiment. The guy talks about the US and Bin Laden and you find it necessary to make an off the cuff remark about Israel torturing children.

Tarkus

There it is. I KNEW it was coming. Criticise Israel and you are an anti-semite. Brilliant. Bringing out the big guns.

Edit: Find where I said something about torturing children? Guess all us pinko commie anti-semites must run together eh?

[Anthony]

the world should just nuke that whole area. there's been nothing but fighting over what amounts to a land the size of a small town. blow it up and start over. i don't bat an eyelash when i hear of people dying in that area. fuck 'em all.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by astralhaze
There it is. I KNEW it was coming. Criticise Israel and you are an anti-semite. Brilliant. Bringing out the big guns.

Edit: Find where I said something about torturing children? Guess all us pinko commie anti-semites must run together eh?

The conversation had nothing to do with Israel! You turned into a discussion on Israel with your stupid remark. Give me one good reason why it was necessary to do this?

And I just knew you'd take the Palestinian account of what happened. That's a big surprise.

The first point was implying that the US would somehow threaten his children. So maybe I should have said threaten to tortune them.

Tarkus

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by Tarkus
The conversation had nothing to do with Israel! You turned into a discussion on Israel with your stupid remark.

And I just knew you'd take the Palestinian account of what happened. That's a big surprise.

Tarkus

a1 No, the conversation was about U.S. moral hypocracy. I consider U.S. support for Israel to be a sign of moral hypocracy. Seems relevant to me.

b2 Palestinian account? The Jerusalem Post, LA Times, and Amos Yaron are Palestinians? News to me.

b3 I took the first comment to mean that the U.S. would use his family as leverage. I didn't assume torture or the threat thereof. Don't put words in my mouth and then claim that it is what I meant when it is pointed out that I didn't say it.

[astralhaze]

Just a pre-emptive strike here so you know my views rather than guessing them. I support neither Israel nor the PLO. I am against the continued Israeli occupation (brutal I might add) of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The PLO is corrupt, inept, and has a strain of violence which does nothing to help, and in fact hurts, their cause. The continued suicide bombings are moraly abhorent and only cause further repression by the Israeli's. I am definately in favor of a Palestinian state, in line with the world consensus I might add. I am, of course, against terrorist attacks against Israel and would speak out against any armed attack against it. However, the Israel worship here in the states sickens me. Israeli's have a much more clear view of themselves than Americans do by far. Just read the Jerusalem Post or Ha'aretz sometime. Things they report openly are given one to two lines here, if any. Israel is like any military power, it is brutal and violent. It's repression against the Palestinian people knows, literaly, no bounds.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by astralhaze
a1 No, the conversation was about U.S. moral hypocracy. I consider U.S. support for Israel to be a sign of moral hypocracy. Seems relevant to me.

b2 Palestinian account? The Jerusalem Post, LA Times, and Amos Yaron are Palestinians? News to me.

b3 I took the first comment to mean that the U.S. would use his family as leverage. I didn't assume torture or the threat thereof. Don't put words in my mouth and then claim that it is what I meant when it is pointed out that I didn't say it.

Ah, so every time someone talks about moral hypocracy let's throw Israel into the picture. Man, I really hope that there never comes a time when someone walks into your house and blows your family to bits.

It's also amazing how you pick and chose. Every comment about the Israelis you assume to be true, but you've yet to mention anything about the Palestiains. Given two sides to a story it's clear which one you're going to believe. I've still yet to see you even mention the role played by the Phalangist units, who of course bear no responsibility for what happened.

Ah numerous terrorist activities. Like the massacre in Jenin? I'm sure you believe that one. Every time Israel retaliates by going after Palestinian terrorists, and an innocent bystander gets hurt (because the terrorists use them as human shields) I'm sure you call that Israeli terrorism. It's clear to me you are what you are.

Tarkus

[Tarkus]

I read the Jerusalem Post and Ha'aretz all the time. You should try reading some of the Palestinian media. Also, check out the site http://www.honestreporting.com/ and you'll see the media bias against Israel. It is truly amazing that even after all the BS that gets reported there is so much support for Israel in this country. You might want to ask yourself, with anti-Semitism rampant throughout most of the world, this is indeed the case. Plus to really understand what's going on in the region you need a history of 20th century events, which at this time I am getting too tired to go into.

Tarkus

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by Tarkus
Ah, so every time someone talks about moral hypocracy let's throw Israel into the picture. Man, I really hope that there never comes a time when someone walks into your house and blows your family to bits.

It's also amazing how you pick and chose. Every comment about the Israeli you assume to be true, but you've yet to mention anything about the Palestiains. Given two sides to a story it's clear which one you're going to believe. I've still yet to see you even mention the role played by the Phalangist units, who of course bear no responsibility of what happened.

Ah numerous terrorist activities. Like the massacre in Jenin? I'm sure you believe that one. Every time Israel retaliates by going after Palestinian terrorists, and an innocent bystander gets hurt (because the terrorists use them as human shields) I'm sure you call that Israeli terrorism. It's clear to me you are what you are.

Tarkus

No, this time I threw Israel in to the picture. Is that not allowed?

I didn't mention anything about the Palestinians because were talking about Israel. I am well aware of the terrorist activities of Palestinians. Who isn't?

If you don't see mention of the Phalangist units, you are either blind or only reading what you wanted to see. Yes, the Phalangists killed 800 people. I DID mention that, you just chose not to see it.

The evidence of a massacre in Jenin is quite unclear. Obviously some civilians were killed, whether it was intentional or not, and how many, I cannot comment. I was actually refering to the brutalization that goes on in the occupied territories every day. Why in the hell do you think people blow themselves up? Racism? Fanatic Islam? I doubt it.

And what am I, exactly?

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by Tarkus
I read the Jerusalem Post and Ha'aretz all the time. You should try reading some of the Palestinian media. Also, check out the site http://www.honestreporting.com/ and you'll see the media bias against Israel. It is truly amazing that even after all the BS that gets reported there is so much support for Israel in this country. You might want to ask yourself, with anti-Semitism rampant throughout most of the world, this is indeed the case. Plus to really understand what's going on in the region you need a history of 20th century events, which at this time I am getting too tired to go into.

Tarkus

You assume I don't have a history of 20'th century events because I don't agree with you?

If you think there is a media bias in America against Israel....wow. I don't even know how to begin to comment on that.

[Tarkus]

Alright, give me a minute while I pull this together.

Tarkus

[Dutch]

First off, its about damn time we caught someone important. Hopefully this will lead to the capture of Bin Laden. Personally, I think the guy might die before giving up Bin Laden, but it is better than nothing. And maybe this will focus the war back on stopping real threats to America (al quaeda) and not on stopping minimal threats (saddam).

Heaven forbid he talks about his link with Iraq, eh?

Your whole anti-american rhetoric is about to implode....

[Tarkus]

I'm sure you'll debate these but these are the facts.

Jewish habitation in the land has been continuous since ca. 1000 BCE, when Jewish tribes founded a kingdom in what is no Isreal and the territories.

Modern international agreements legally confirmed Jew's right to rebuild their homeland in present-day Israel and the territories (see Britain's 1917 Balfour Declaration). According to this declaration the Palestinians already have a state, it's called Jordan.

The territories are disputed land because they are unallocated portions of the Palestinian Mandate. See UN Resolution 181 which recommended dividing the remaining Mandate land into Arab and Jewish states Israel accepted the plan, the Arabs rejected it, and went to war.

Because Israel fought a defensive, not offensive, war in 1967, its entry into and administration of the territories were legal. See UN Resolution 242.

Israel was not an "occupier" because it had entered unassigned Mandate lands, not a sovereign nation. No Arab Palestinian nation had ever existed there.

Settlement building is legal under international law. This is evidenced by Resolution 242 and Oslo.

Anti-Israel propaganda exaggerates the size and threat posed by Jewish settlements. The built-up areas of Jewish settlements cover 1.7% of the land in the territories.

Jewish settlers should be morally and legally able to remain in the territories even if an Arab Palestinian state is established. 1.2 million Arabs live in Israel.

Tarkus

P.S. More coming

[astralhaze]

Go ahead and keep it coming. You are not going to convince me. For every "fact" you throw out I have an opposing "fact". I hope that eventually Israeli's and Palestinians can live together in peace, although I doubt it.

[astralhaze]

I will pick one bone, however. U.N. Resolution 242 says no such thing about either Israeli's entry in to the territories being legal and/or settlement building being legal. The full text for the curious:

"The Security Council,
Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,
Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,

Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:


Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

Affirms further the necessity

For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;
For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;
For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;

Requests the Secretary General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;
Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible. "

my emphasis

[Tarkus]

I could give you a lot of information on the conditions of the Palestinians in the territories under Israeli jurisdiction (1967-93) and Palestinian Authority jurisdiction (1993-2000) if you would like. But to summarize:

In 1947, when Arab nations rejected the UN proposal to form an Arab state alongside a Jewish state and went to war instead, THEY created the Palestinian refugee problem. Arabs in the West Bank did not get a state and an estimated 600,000 left war-torn Israel and became refugees. Though some permanently resettled in other countries, many remain displaced and impoverished, denied citizenship and civil rights throughout the Arab world. But the Arab nations and Yassier Arafat commiteed these injustices, not Israel. Arab leaders have actively prevented resettlement of Palestinian Arabs in Arab countries. Arab governments have not helped to improve the living conditions in the Palestinian Arab refugee camps. They have cultivated Palestinian suffereing to use it as a pawn in their campaign against the Jews. In contrast, Israel and the West have tried to better the lives of Palestinians.

Tarkus

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by astralhaze
Go ahead and keep it coming. You are not going to convince me. For every "fact" you throw out I have an opposing "fact". I hope that eventually Israeli's and Palestinians can live together in peace, although I doubt it.

As long as Arabs teach their children in their homes and schools to hate Jews you are correct.

Tarkus

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by Tarkus
As long as Arabs teach their children in their homes and schools to hate Jews you are correct.

Tarkus

I realize that there is certainly a very strong strain of anti-semitism in the Palestinian community, and the Arab nations at large. What baffles me is that you fail to see the racism against Arabs and the horrific conditions imposed upon the Palestinians by the occupation.

[Tarkus]

As far as UN Resolution 242 goes it is to be presumed that Israel, as the victor, would adminster ther territories until enemy states committed to a "just and lasting peace." That clearly has NOT happened. Many Arab nations to this day still fail to recognize the existence of a Jewish state. Resolution 242 also presumed Israel would negotiate new, more defensible borders. Consequently, it stipulated that once peace was made, Israel should "withdraw from territories" - NOT ALL territories - captured during the conflict, according to US negotiator Eugene Rostow.

Tarkus

[astralhaze]

Yes, certainly that is the Israeli spin. There is far more to it, however. I would love to continue this debate and perhaps we will at another time but right now I have to go to sleep. You can have the last word.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by astralhaze
I realize that there is certainly a very strong strain of anti-semitism in the Palestinian community, and the Arab nations at large. What baffles me is that you fail to see the racism against Arabs and the horrific conditions imposed upon the Palestinians by the occupation.

Sigh, damn it's getting late but here goes.

Under Israeli jurisdiction:

Israeli investment in Palestinian business, industry and infrastructure help the PA GNP grow 13% annually between 1967 and 1980; per capital income grew tenfold; unemployment dropped from 40% to below 5%.

Israel bilt 166 clinics, provided universal insurance and medical programs for Palestinians. Mortality rates plummeted by 2/3 (1970-1990). Israel also expanded water, sewage, and electric systems.

Freedom of association, trade unions, civic organizations and oppostion parties permitted. Voting rights extended to porrer classes and to women for local elections for the first time in Palestinian Arabs' history.

Freedom of the press, even for anti-Israel opinions.

Israel bilt 6 universities and 20 community colleges fro the Palestinians. Illiteracy dropped from 50% to 30% between 1967 and 1980.

Except during terrorist upsurges, Israel employs about 120,000 Plaestinians fromt the disputed Territories. Their earning accounted for 43% of the West Bank's overall income in 1999.

Between 1994-2001, the EU contributed $1.5 billion; the US pledged $500 million,. Israel allocated $90 million between 1993-1999, and facilitated invetments in Palestinians' private sector.

Between 1949 and 1971, Israel repatriated 140,000 Palestinian refugees, who are now full Israeli citizens.

Israel struggles to avoid harming innocent civilians bu using house-to-house tactice instead of aerial bombing (as often as possible).

Ah, now for the Palestinian Authority jurisdiction.

Tarkus