Wonderlic revealed and Vice Young is no scholar

[Tim Tellean]

hxxp://views.washingtonpost.com/theleague/predraft/2009/02/nfl-scouting-combine-wonderlic.html

One of the greatest mysteries of the NFL Scouting Combine is The Wonderlic Personnel Test (WPT). Created in 1937, this industrial psychological examination, offered to every NFL hopeful in Lucas Oil Stadium, isn't about speed, or brawn. Instead it measures cognitive ability, learning and problem solving.
The 50 question, 12-minute test has been a part of football since Tom Landry began giving it to prospective Dallas Cowboys in the early 70s and has been part of the NFL Scouting Combine since its inception. Scores range from 0-50, 50 being a perfect score, with 20 being an average score and an indicator of an IQ of 100. From a football perspective, Wonderlic helps "rank and identify the players who have the mental strength to lead their team to victory," according to the company.
NFL draftees reportedly have an average score of around 19, (Vince Young got a six) but how they break down by position my surprise you:
Offensive tackles: 26
Centers: 25
Quarterbacks: 24
Guards: 23
Tight Ends: 22
Safeties: 19
Middle linebackers: 19
Cornerbacks: 18
Wide receivers: 17
Fullbacks: 17
Halfbacks: 16
So you think you can outsmart the players? Here're a few sample questions from Wonderlic.
wpt_sample_questions.pdf

Classic. I'd love to know what JaMarcus Russell received as a score. Truly simple and unbelieveably easy.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Not much of a surprise, as that data has been tossed about for a number of years now. Nor is Vince Young not being a veritable genius exactly registering on the Richter Scale either. As for Russell, I'm not entirely sure whether negative scores are possible so I'll hold off on guessing for now.

[jeff061]

I took one once, it was fun. The questions are not incredibly hard, you are just not given much time. You either know the answer right away or you skip on to the next one.

[Axxon]

The irony of the thread title wouldn't be missed even by Vice Young.

[jeff061]

Heh, I was half expecting this to be a thread on how Vince misspelled his name on some test.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Hey... It's not nice to pick on Vince. He's sensitive. We need to hold his hand and tell him how special a person he is. Atta boy Vince! Next time you will throw it to your receiver and it'll be a touchdown and they'll carry you off the field on their shoulders chanting "Vince! Vince! Vince!"

[Young Drachma]

Umm...pretty sure this story came out when he took the test.

[Young Drachma]

And he retook it, apparently and got a higher score. I think his agent issued it or something like that, to prove that he wasn't a jack in the box.

But so what, he's a dumb jock? The QBs are the smartest guy on the field myth is just hooey concocted by apologists.

[Tim Tellean]

Its interesting to note in the story that the O-Line are "smarter" then the other positions including Qbs. The impression is that O-Line are big, dumb jocks when at least against like athletes they perform better.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Tim Tellean

Its interesting to note in the story that the O-Line are "smarter" then the other positions including Qbs. The impression is that O-Line are big, dumb jocks when at least against like athletes they perform better.

I think that this myth was disproved a long time ago. O-line avg SAT scores were always among the highest among the various position groups...

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

And he retook it, apparently and got a higher score. I think his agent issued it or something like that, to prove that he wasn't a jack in the box.

But so what, he's a dumb jock? The QBs are the smartest guy on the field myth is just hooey concocted by apologists.

Not that the wonderlic is the end-all-be-all, but quickly making correct decisions would seem to be a skill that you would want in a football player (and particularly in a QB). Certainly not a deal-breaker, but if an organization is considering spending tens of millions of dollars on someone, something I would want to have in my pile of things to consider.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Not that the wonderlic is the end-all-be-all, but quickly making correct decisions would seem to be a skill that you would want in a football player (and particularly in a QB). Certainly not a deal-breaker, but if an organization is considering spending tens of millions of dollars on someone, something I would want to have in my pile of things to consider.

The Wonderlic is almost useless for evaluating the ability to make quick football decisions.

Marino scored a 16. Drew Bledsoe scored a 37. Which quarterback had a history on the field of making better split-second decisions on what to do with the football?

I believe Joe Montana scored very low, but Tom Brady scored a 33.

I'm not going to argue that Vince Young is a really smart guy, I'm just saying a really smart guy as far as standardized tests are concerned is not what you need in a quarterback.

[Lathum]

At first I thought someone bumped an old thread.

And in other news, Lance Bass is gay!

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

The Wonderlic is almost useless for evaluating the ability to make quick football decisions.

Marino scored a 16. Drew Bledsoe scored a 37. Which quarterback had a history on the field of making better split-second decisions on what to do with the football?

I believe Joe Montana scored very low, but Tom Brady scored a 33.

I'm not going to argue that Vince Young is a really smart guy, I'm just saying a really smart guy as far as standardized tests are concerned is not what you need in a quarterback.

QFT...This Wonderlic BS always astounds me. I can understand wanting to get a general sense of a player's intelligence prior to spending millions of dollars on him but to assume that this test has strong validity in measuring success on the field is asinine.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

QFT...This Wonderlic BS always astounds me. I can understand wanting to get a general sense of a player's intelligence prior to spending millions of dollars on him but to assume that this test has strong validity in measuring success on the field is asinine.

Due to the extremely short time limit, the wonderlic measures the ability to process information quickly, something you have to do to play QB in the NFL.

Chad Pennington has shown us you can succeed in the NFL without the top arm strength. Ty Detmer showed us there IS a minimum arm strength you do need to succeed.

Similarly, there IS a minimum amount of information processing speed required to play NFL QB. Vince Young does not have it. Much like the physical tests, this should be used to reinforce what you saw on tape - VY never made multiple reads in college. First guy isn't open, time to run.

[Atocep]

People who criticize the wonderlic and the 40 yard dash along with other individual elements of the combine typically miss out on the big picture.

The wonderlic, from my understanding, is meant to give the team an idea of how quickly/easily a player can pick up a playbook. It has nothing to do with actual decision making on the field as far as I've read.

I seriously doubt there's a team out there that will pass on a player simply because he does poorly on the wonderlic or runs a bad 40. Each of these are a piece of the puzzle teams use to evaluate a player. Scoring poorly on the wonderlic may lead a team to dig deeper and ask different questions when interviewing a player and a poor 40 may have them looking at more film along with the results of other speed/agility drills, but those scores/times alone aren't much use without more information. That's the point of the combine as a whole.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Much like the physical tests, this should be used to reinforce what you saw on tape - VY never made multiple reads in college. First guy isn't open, time to run.

If you saw that on tape, though, then you don't know how to watch game tape. It's just not true.

The point is that the Wonderlic has been shown to be terrible at what you guys are saying it's used for. Marino picked up a playbook fine. I mean, he did okay his rookie season I figure. There are plenty of other examples.

Drew Henson still hasn't figured out a playbook and he scored 42.

Yes, there are hits (e.g., Vince Young). But the misses are plentiful as well, making the test pretty worthless for that purpose.

[Tigercat]

Jamarcus Russell scored a 24 on the wonderlic. Oh and he had a solid first season (what this past year was for him) for a HORRIBLE Raiders team this year.

I have no idea why people still randomly slam the kids ability or intelligence level with little to nothing to back it up with.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

If you saw that on tape, though, then you don't know how to watch game tape. It's just not true.

???????

Amazing then, all of the articles that were published while he was having an amazing senior year in which his own coaches attributed his success to simplifying the offense for him, telling him to make one read and then take off.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Marino picked up a playbook fine.

Drew Henson still hasn't figured out a playbook and he scored 42.

Judging any player's knowledge of a playbook while sitting at home and simply looking how they perform on the field is even more worthless than you make the wonderlic out to be.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

I have no idea why people still randomly slam the kids ability or intelligence level with little to nothing to back it up with.

On the ability part, anybody who thinks he's an NFL caliber starter or at least one worthy of his draft position is unworthy of ever commenting on football again, period.

On his intelligence, you may have to refresh my memory. Where did he go to college?

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Judging any player's knowledge of a playbook while sitting at home and simply looking how they perform on the field is even more worthless than you make the wonderlic out to be.

I would think the correlation between on field performance and knowledge of the playbook (for qb's) trumps that of wonderlic scores and success on the field or in game decision making for that matter.

[QuikSand]

I tend to view any one indicator as not all that important -- but it does tell you something. I think that all else equal, you'd want a player to be pretty smart, right? Whether he's reading defenses, remembering his blocking assignments, or just drawing on common sense to steer clear of totally stupid shit off the field, a decent head on his shoulders should be a plus. Makes sense to me.

Same with any other one thing guys do at the combine. All else equal, I'll take a CB with blazing speed, thanks. All else equal, I'll take the guard who lifts more than the other guy. Wouldn't anyone?

Anyone who thinks that one single indicator tells the whole story is a fool. And anyone who believes that finding one contra-indication disproves some general usefulness in an indicator is, too.

[stevew]

I think it's more of a character issue than just intelligence alone. Everyone knows you will be taking the wonderlic. To fail to at least put some work into a couple pretests is somewhat sketchy. Nobody expected Vince to get a 35 but I think almost anyone should be smart enough to crack 20. Especially if you're aiming to play QB in the NFL and be a first round pick.

This far Vince has taken a nice big shit in the NFL and made a ton of cash to do so.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by stevew

This far Vince has taken a nice big shit in the NFL and made a ton of cash to do so.

What did Najeh Davenport score?

[fantom1979]

Originally Posted by stevew

I think it's more of a character issue than just intelligence alone. Everyone knows you will be taking the wonderlic. To fail to at least put some work into a couple pretests is somewhat sketchy. Nobody expected Vince to get a 35 but I think almost anyone should be smart enough to crack 20. Especially if you're aiming to play QB in the NFL and be a first round pick.

This far Vince has taken a nice big shit in the NFL and made a ton of cash to do so.

Maybe he did study.... he got a 6, he could have scored a 2.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

On the ability part, anybody who thinks he's an NFL caliber starter or at least one worthy of his draft position is unworthy of ever commenting on football again, period.

On his intelligence, you may have to refresh my memory. Where did he go to college?

Watching him at LSU, I will say that I fully believe he has all the tools. Including the ability play smart on the field. (Or at least with a decent amount of awareness and smarts.) His biggest issue is that he needs to put it all together, and I am not completely sure he has the drive for that. Not to say he totally doesn't give a shit, ala post big contract Aaron Brooks. It takes a real full commitment to be a good NFL QB, even if you have a howitzer for an arm.

But, he looked better than say Matt Leinhart did during the regular season last year, and he is still a young player. Who knows how he will turn out...

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

What did Najeh Davenport score?

More importantly, what did Emmitt Smith get??

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I tend to view any one indicator as not all that important -- but it does tell you something. I think that all else equal, you'd want a player to be pretty smart, right? Whether he's reading defenses, remembering his blocking assignments, or just drawing on common sense to steer clear of totally stupid shit off the field, a decent head on his shoulders should be a plus. Makes sense to me.

Same with any other one thing guys do at the combine. All else equal, I'll take a CB with blazing speed, thanks. All else equal, I'll take the guard who lifts more than the other guy. Wouldn't anyone?

Anyone who thinks that one single indicator tells the whole story is a fool. And anyone who believes that finding one contra-indication disproves some general usefulness in an indicator is, too.

I don't disagree with any of that. I've also supplied multiple contra-indications in this thread, though. Obviously I haven't done a scientific study on the topic, but I doubt the correlation between QB Wonderlic score and on-the-field production is significant. Admittedly that is just based on anecdotal evidence, but it's certainly not based on a single instance. There are more, of course.

Quincy Carter scored a 30, higher than Peyton Manning's 28. And so on and so forth.

Atocep -

Your post has already been covered. If grasp of the playbook isn't reflected in performance on the field, then what is the point of attempting to predict how well a player will grasp the playbook?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

then what is the point of attempting to predict how well a player will grasp the playbook?

Maybe teams just don't like giving millions to morons if they can avoid it.

As for Quitsy Carter, it was later discovered that his test was administered by Jim Harrick in an experimental bit of cross sports mutual aid.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Atocep -

Your post has already been covered. If grasp of the playbook isn't reflected in performance on the field, then what is the point of attempting to predict how well a player will grasp the playbook?

Sitting at home watching TV you have no idea what changes a team has to make for a player, what simplifications they're making, how much of the playbook the player is working with, or if he's actually making mistakes and talent is covering them up.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by fantom1979

Maybe he did study.... he got a 6, he could have scored a 2.

If I recall, Vince Young retook the test and got a 16.

[Danny]

I just scored 12/12, sign me up NFL!

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Danny

I just scored 12/12, sign me up NFL!

But did you do it in less than three minutes?

[Danny]

I did it in two hours and 32 minutes.

Probably around 4 minutes actually

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Quincy Carter scored a 30, higher than Peyton Manning's 28. And so on and so forth.

Not to pick on you, but putting out two "random" players and comparing their scores, in a vacuum, does not really present any type of usable information for this discussion.

Yes, Peyton Manning and Quincy Carter had similar scores, but isn't that about where the similarities end between the two?

Without even going into things like arm strength, release time, high school and college offenses played in, or measurables such as 40-time, bench press, jumping ability, you can clearly determine that they are significantly different in size. Carter played minor league baseball for a few seasons, while Manning continued to focus on being a quarterback. Carter had a number of injuries while he was developing as a college quarterback, while Manning was relatively healthy. I don't know much about Carter's upbringing or the socio-economic class that he grew up in, but I know that Manning's father was an NFL quarterback and that he grew up financially secure. Etc, etc.

If I score a number similar to Peyton Manning on the Wonderlic, it doesn't mean that I'll be as good of a quarterback if he's half a foot taller than me, genetically blessed, and has been playing the position for the last 15 years. But, if you have two QBs w/ similar resumes and measurables and character, I would rather have the more intellectual player that is able to adjust his game on the fly if need be, recognize different defense quicker, grasp formation concepts more quickly, etc.

[Swaggs]

Dola...

I think VY's official score was a 15. I recall hearing about the low score, but I've never actually seen it substantiated.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

What did Najeh Davenport score?

Reminds me of my alltime favorite post that I've made on FOFC. Post #10:

Joke setup thread... - Front Office Football Central


Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Speak of the devil ...

Former Bulldogs QB Carter arrested on DWI charge | ajc.com

Mission, Texas — Former Dallas Cowboys quarterback Quincy Carter was charged Friday with drunken driving and marijuana possession.

Carter’s blood-alcohol level tested at 0.14, said Texas Department of Public Safety trooper Johnny Hernandez. The state’s legal limit is 0.08.

He was charged with misdemeanor possession of less than 2 ounces of marijuana after the drug was found in his car, Hernandez said. Carter was pulled over in the Mission area for failing to signal a turn, and had bloodshot eyes and slurred speech, police said.

The 31-year-old Carter, who played at Georgia from 1998-2000, was arraigned Friday and being held in the Hidalgo County jail.

In 2003, Carter guided the Cowboys to a 10-6 record and the playoffs in their first season under coach Bill Parcells. But he was released in training camp before the 2004 season.

He started briefly for the New York Jets before poor play and drug-related arrests ended his NFL career. He played in the Arena Football League before a brief tryout last year with the Miami Dolphins.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Not to pick on you, but putting out two "random" players and comparing their scores, in a vacuum, does not really present any type of usable information for this discussion.

Yes, Peyton Manning and Quincy Carter had similar scores, but isn't that about where the similarities end between the two?

Without even going into things like arm strength, release time, high school and college offenses played in, or measurables such as 40-time, bench press, jumping ability, you can clearly determine that they are significantly different in size. Carter played minor league baseball for a few seasons, while Manning continued to focus on being a quarterback. Carter had a number of injuries while he was developing as a college quarterback, while Manning was relatively healthy. I don't know much about Carter's upbringing or the socio-economic class that he grew up in, but I know that Manning's father was an NFL quarterback and that he grew up financially secure. Etc, etc.

If I score a number similar to Peyton Manning on the Wonderlic, it doesn't mean that I'll be as good of a quarterback if he's half a foot taller than me, genetically blessed, and has been playing the position for the last 15 years. But, if you have two QBs w/ similar resumes and measurables and character, I would rather have the more intellectual player that is able to adjust his game on the fly if need be, recognize different defense quicker, grasp formation concepts more quickly, etc.

All good points and it also can't take into account something that helps an NFL QB succeed even more than the ability to make quick decisions and fit the ball into tight spaces. Work ethic/preparation. The game slows down a lot when you are prepared and I would be willing to bet a healthy amount that Manning probably studied more film on his own time than Quincy Carter or Ryan Leaf.