FOOL’S Managers over the years

[muns]

So with Alan busting his hump around here all the time, I figured id try to come up with something fun (Alan actually inspired me to do it when he created the Franchise History page). Ive been working on this for about a month now, and its still no where close to being done. So I figure ill release 5 every other day or something until I get done. Well see how it goes.

What makes FOOL so special league wise, is not only our great set up game wise, but the Guys and Gals that we have in the league. This is my attempt to not only categorize our history but to rate our “FOOLS” over the course of our history.

As Alan has so nicely put up and worked so hard on the Franchise History http://www.fool-x.net/fool/fool.htm he made all this possible and with his information there it was easy to pull and play with.

So a big shout out and thank you does need go out to Alan, for not only this but for EVERYTHING he has done for FOOL.

As I sat down to do this I couldn’t quite figure out how I wanted to rank everybody. Did I just want to do it with wins and losses? Playoff wins and Losses? Titles? Participation in the league? Did that manager help move FOOL forward on issues? Were they active on the boards??? After thinking about it, I wanted it all included into one encompassing rating. So I guess that’s how people are ranked, and thats how I did it. This isn’t meant to offend anyone. Its for fun, and while I may or may not have some strong feelings on a few guys, I think I did this as honestly as I could.

When I could I also included a post that either brought back some history, or back ground to prove the point im trying to make. In doing that things came flooding back on some things, and for you vets it’s a fun ride, and for the newer guys, you can get some background on how FOOL either came about or how it has helped shape this league somehow.


So with that being said lets get right into the count down of our 43 current and past managers



43. Malc Pow- He ran the Chicago Franchise for a few years and went 129-179 for a win % of .419. That isn’t the worst we have had here in FOOL, as it is actually the 5th worst, but all in all I don’t remember him too much, and he didn’t stick around long. Someone has to start us off, and Mac Pow is the guy that I chose due to the win %, and not remembering much about him.

42. Sir Fozzie- Sir Fozzie is a long time Member of the FOFC Community at Large, and someone I have a lot of respect for in general. However that said he too also ran the Chicago Franchise which historically is one of FOOL’S worst and if Mastermind DC didn’t run it for a bit, very well could have easily been FOOL’S all time WORST Franchise. Fozzie’s all time record was 210-406 which does equal the worst win % of all time in FOOL at .341. Overall Sir Fozzie wasn’t around long enough to make a huge impact on FOOL, however he did create quite a stir in 1966 and will be best remembered in FOOL for his deal with me in which he sent one player, Catcher Stanford Jones my way for 12 guys and a draft pick. That deal sent long time FOOL member Chief Rum in a tizzy, that resulted in a long debate about how trades should be done in FOOL. Thanks does go out to Fozzie to help make FOOL a better place with that deal. That discussion can be found here 1966 Trade Board - Front Office Football Central


41. dacubz- Dacubz came into the league and took over the Columbus Crusaders in 1985 and was around until 2002. He amassed 1197 wins with 1600 losses and a win % of .428. He did make the playoffs once but had no titles. He makes the list where he does due to his low activity (only 43 posts) and for the fact that if some of our other owners (who are low on this list) would have stuck around more, im sure they would have been a tad more successful. Dacubz tried and just couldn’t find his nitche here in FOOL.


40. brittdad- Brittdad joined FOOL around 1983 with the Wyoming franchise (formerly of Valdosta Fame) and started off with a bang. He made a few trades and was involved in plenty of activity on the boards here, however Brittdad was brought into the league by former FOOLER TimGuru (who will be in the countdown later) and around that time, we started to have some “issues” per se in FOOL with how the league was going. Some Nasty spats on the boards ran rampid around here, and we lost a few managers. Brittdad was included in that purge of FOOLERS lost. In his time here, taking over a team that was bare Brittdad went 269-501 with a win % of .349 the second lowest in FOOL History. Im convinced that if he would have stayed around he would have been a nice fit in FOOL, and I wouldn’t mind seeing him come back around.


39. Indalltheway -He joined the league in 1963 and lasted only a few short years. He just wasn’t around long enough to do much here in FOOL at all as he went 257-359 for a win % of .417, which does put him 5th worst all time. I don’t remember much of him and his post total in FOOL looks like its only around 20 or so posts. He won a bit more than the others below him, which is why he lands at 41 on the list.


38. fairly- This one hurts kinda, as I like Fairly and he has recently come back and joined FOOL H in one of our sister leagues here. Fairly came into FOOL managing the New Orleans Rens franchise who before he joined had changed names and cities 3 times from 1961-1964. That should tell you what he had to deal with as he started off. That said Fairly was out just as fast as he joined as he had 5 total posts before leaving FOOL. I did like his explanation of why he chose Wrens for the N.O Franchise which can be found here New Orleans under new management - Front Office Football Central

Im glad to see you did in fact come back Fairly. Good luck in FOOL H.


Stay tuned for the next set of guys to be released.

[Alan T]

I'm excited to see this. Good stuff so far! I had totally forgotten that it was Sir Fozzie that you did the huge blockbuster deal with. For some reason I remembered that being like 10 years later or something.

[Chief Rum]

Awesome, great read, muns. This could be fun.

And while there's potential for some owners being put off based on where they end up, I am pretty confident you'll have the rationale to back it up. If I end up low, I'll just use it as motivation.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by muns

As Alan has so nicely put up and worked so hard on the Franchise History http://www.fool-x.net/fool/fool.htm on our new website he made all this possible and with his information there it was easy to pull and play with.

Quick comment, the URL above is not quite right. It should be:

http://www.fool-x.net/fool/fool.htm

[Chief Rum]

P.S. Stupid, Stanford Jones deal, ruined FOOL.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Awesome, great read, muns. This could be fun.

And while there's potential for some owners being put off based on where they end up, I am pretty confident you'll have the rationale to back it up. If I end up low, I'll just use it as motivation.

Yeah, that is something that always makes me nervous when I come up with my various lists. I'm always afraid of hurting someone's feelings which is why I tend to focus more on who is doing well instead of who is doing poorly. I would be like.. ok ranking the top 45 managers of all time... everyone ends up tied for 1st. Good job all!

[muns]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Quick comment, the URL above is not quite right. It should be:

http://www.fool-x.net/fool/fool.htm

Thanks Alan, I fixed it!

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Yeah, that is something that always makes me nervous when I come up with my various lists. I'm always afraid of hurting someone's feelings which is why I tend to focus more on who is doing well instead of who is doing poorly. I would be like.. ok ranking the top 45 managers of all time... everyone ends up tied for 1st. Good job all!

I think we're mature enough to handle it. We have had our moments, but I really think our current group is fantastic, fairly even-keeled and rational enough to take any such list as just another part of the fun of being in the league. After all, Anthony's not here no more, for instance. He would gone ballistic with where he ends up I am sure.

[muns]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Awesome, great read, muns. This could be fun.

And while there's potential for some owners being put off based on where they end up, I am pretty confident you'll have the rationale to back it up. If I end up low, I'll just use it as motivation.

Most of the guys that are lower that might get offended, is just because they didnt put in the time here. 5 years in the league shouldnt have you in the top 10.

I think the core owners we have including the current ones, shouldnt be worried about being put off as they will be high enough on the list. I mean when we are getting up that high its subjective anyway, and we can debate it. So im hoping to bring some convo from it.

Im not meaning to be degrading, or hurtful, just trying to have some fun!!!!!

Like you said Chief, if someone is offenend just use it as motivation, especially if your in my division

If anyone is wondering im up to #26, so I still have a ways to go.

[ekcut]

I would not want to be the guy who has to choose the top 5 or 10...So many deserving participants!

[Alan T]

#1 easily has to be JimmyOOTP. He was just held back by the man!

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

#1 easily has to be JimmyOOTP. He was just held back by the man!

Or God help us if he wasn't, lol.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ekcut

I would not want to be the guy who has to choose the top 5 or 10...So many deserving participants!

My prediction for Top Ten

1. Alan T
2. Dark Cloud
3. muns
4. ekcut
5. Tasan
6. Teach
7. allpro
8. gstelmack
9. Montreal GM
10. Commo_Soldier

Yes, I did leave myself off. I didn't think it would be fair for me to try to place myself among this group.

Apologies if I forgot anyone, I was going off of the top of my head.

[muns]

Originally Posted by Alan T

#1 easily has to be JimmyOOTP. He was just held back by the man!

I cant WAIT TO DO HIS...... I had a ton of fun doing Magic Number's. Anyone remember him?????

[muns]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

My prediction for Top Ten

1. Alan T
2. Dark Cloud
3. muns
4. ekcut
5. Tasan
6. Teach
7. allpro
8. gstelmack
9. Montreal GM
10. Commo_Soldier

Yes, I did leave myself off. I didn't think it would be fair for me to try to place myself among this group.

Apologies if I forgot anyone, I was going off of the top of my head.

DOLA!!!! I love saying that for some stupid reason

Chief just brought this up and I wanted to say the same thing, im not making this list with myself on it. Just seems tacky and i like talking about all you bastards instead anyways!

Also, Buck wont be on the list, as most of his stats are Alan's. 1 or 2 years as a fill in would be ok i guess but not more than that.

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Yeah, that is something that always makes me nervous when I come up with my various lists. I'm always afraid of hurting someone's feelings which is why I tend to focus more on who is doing well instead of who is doing poorly. I would be like.. ok ranking the top 45 managers of all time... everyone ends up tied for 1st. Good job all!

Ewww...you're like a kindergarten teacher! That's all we teach kids anymore. Everyone wins and everyone gets a trophy. Now there's a real life lesson.

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

My prediction for Top Ten

1. Alan T
2. Dark Cloud
3. muns
4. ekcut
5. Tasan
6. Teach
7. allpro
8. gstelmack
9. Montreal GM
10. Commo_Soldier

Yes, I did leave myself off. I didn't think it would be fair for me to try to place myself among this group.

Apologies if I forgot anyone, I was going off of the top of my head.

There are like 20 other names I would put in front of mine but it was really cool to see mine at #6 on yours Chief. From you that's high praise so I've got to say thanks for that!

[Tasan]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

My prediction for Top Ten

1. Alan T
2. Dark Cloud
3. muns
4. ekcut
5. Tasan
6. Teach
7. allpro
8. gstelmack
9. Montreal GM
10. Commo_Soldier

Yes, I did leave myself off. I didn't think it would be fair for me to try to place myself among this group.

Apologies if I forgot anyone, I was going off of the top of my head.

That's pretty high praise there pal, thanks. I'm not sure I live up to it, and I really think teach should be above me seeing how she's beat me twice head to head in Classics and has more overall Classic wins.

Speaking of that, I really need to get back to the big show. My teams have been pretty run of the mill lately and I just can't seem to break through.

[TimGuru]

Muns, for effort and contribution, leadership displayed, success as a manager, and most importantly of all, the most blatantly uh, posts in the league from time to time, you deserve to be in the top 10.

Of course, Anthony is the default #1....

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by TeachEnEspanol

There are like 20 other names I would put in front of mine but it was really cool to see mine at #6 on yours Chief. From you that's high praise so I've got to say thanks for that!

Sure thing, although you really have earned it. Consider that, for all the times you have had your stretches of quietness, you have longevity, championships and frankly, you're probably the most well liked owner here (also earned, IMO, no one nicer, except maybe Alan). And on top of all that, while your post count is less than some, your impact per post is much higher than most.

[Tasan]

Originally Posted by TimGuru

Muns, for effort and contribution, leadership displayed, success as a manager, and most importantly of all, the most blatantly uh, posts in the league from time to time, you deserve to be in the top 10.

Of course, Anthony is the default #1....

Agreed!

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Tasan

That's pretty high praise there pal, thanks. I'm not sure I live up to it, and I really think teach should be above me seeing how she's beat me twice head to head in Classics and has more overall Classic wins.

Speaking of that, I really need to get back to the big show. My teams have been pretty run of the mill lately and I just can't seem to break through.

As I was just saying with Teach, IMO, you definitely have earned it. Very high participation as an owner and highly successful teams for the most part, and you have been here for a long while. Plus, I have further reason personally to rank you there, because you're kinda like my legacy, seeing as how you were the one I recruited to take over for me in Colorado all those years ago.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by TimGuru

Muns, for effort and contribution, leadership displayed, success as a manager, and most importantly of all, the most blatantly uh, posts in the league from time to time, you deserve to be in the top 10.

Of course, Anthony is the default #1....

TG, I forgot about you on my list. All due respect to Commo, who was a fine owner, but if I had recalled you, I think I would have placed you on my list ahead of him.

For all our less than amicable split last time we were in the league together, I have to acknowledge your impact as an owner while you were here in FOOL.

[Montreal_GM]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

My prediction for Top Ten

1. Alan T
2. Dark Cloud
3. muns
4. ekcut
5. Tasan
6. Teach
7. allpro
8. gstelmack
9. Montreal GM
10. Commo_Soldier

Yes, I did leave myself off. I didn't think it would be fair for me to try to place myself among this group.

Apologies if I forgot anyone, I was going off of the top of my head.

I guess past glories trump recent success, which is understandable, but I have more wins than anyone since the restart. That said, rankings are subjective and it's all in good fun so I won't hold this against you.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Montreal_GM

I guess past glories trump recent success, which is understandable, but I have more wins than anyone since the restart. That said, rankings are subjective and it's all in good fun so I won't hold this against you.

Actually, it was tricky for me on where to put you. You're very active, and you have been very successful. But I also think some of your early success since the restart was somewhat built off of the luck of being handed Quero. I think your success since the start of his decline is much more indicative of your quality as a team builder than your early success. FWIW, too, that old time stuff means something to us longtime managers; we been thru a lot a shat together. So you brand-spanking newbies (relatively) gots to pay yer dues.

Seriously, though, it's all subjective bull, and I was just pulling names off of the top of my head. You were definitely one of the trickiest ones for me to place, and regardless of where you are historically, I consider you one of the top managers currently in the league.

[Montreal_GM]

Fair enough.

[muns]

Originally Posted by TimGuru

Muns, for effort and contribution, leadership displayed, success as a manager, and most importantly of all, the most blatantly uh, posts in the league from time to time, you deserve to be in the top 10.

Of course, Anthony is the default #1....

Its funny you posted here. I just saw that you joined FOOL H a few hours ago when I was doing your write up and I was like when the hell did he come back. Glad your back around. We missed your commentary around here bud. Ill give ya a Pm tomorrow when I want to hang myself at work and well have to catch up.

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by muns

What makes FOOL so special league wise, is not only our great set up game wise, but the Guys and Gals that we have in the league.

I couldn't agree with this statement more. I know you guys all love the baseball players from the game but for me, the game wouldn't hold half the value if I didn't have this group of actual people (I know, I know...that will get me in trouble) to talk to about them.

Thanks for putting all the time and effort into doing this, muns!!! (I don't think I ever used that many exclamation points until I started reading your posts.) It has been fun to take breaks from working on lesson plans and reading all the conversation this has generated today.

[ekcut]

Originally Posted by Montreal_GM

Fair enough.

Ya, you are a Quero-less "4 playoff appearence in 5 yr" run away from the top 5...and Tokyo is poised to make a go of that soon!

[Alan T]

You all are crazy. I can do without all of you as long as Rick Inman and Carlos Gonzales are around.

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by Alan T

You all are crazy. I can do without all of you as long as Rick Inman and Carlos Gonzales are around.

We already know where your priorities lie. Your reasons are your own business, just keep providing quality work and we'll keep thinking you're all right.

[muns]

Originally Posted by TeachEnEspanol

We already know where your priorities lie. Your reasons are your own business, just keep providing quality work and we'll keep thinking you're all right.

That really made me laugh out loud.

ya Alan just keep your mouth shut and do your shit...... lol i love it!!!

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by muns

That really made me laugh out loud.

ya Alan just keep your mouth shut and do your shit...... lol i love it!!!

<----You see these exclamation marks?! This is where I get it from. You, sir, are a bad influence.

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Actually, it was tricky for me on where to put you. You're very active, and you have been very successful. But I also think some of your early success since the restart was somewhat built off of the luck of being handed Quero. I think your success since the start of his decline is much more indicative of your quality as a team builder than your early success. FWIW, too, that old time stuff means something to us longtime managers; we been thru a lot a shat together. So you brand-spanking newbies (relatively) gots to pay yer dues.

Seriously, though, it's all subjective bull, and I was just pulling names off of the top of my head. You were definitely one of the trickiest ones for me to place, and regardless of where you are historically, I consider you one of the top managers currently in the league.

Though I agree that Montreal has done a great job since he's been around, I think this was a really well thought out and rational explanation for your decision. Nice job.

[muns]

Originally Posted by TeachEnEspanol

<----You see these exclamation marks?! This is where I get it from. You, sir, are a bad influence.

lol ya my bad...... <------------ I do that a lot too

[Montreal_GM]

For the record on Quero, since it seems to be popular opinion that he single handedly took Montreal to 8 straight playoff appearances, he wasn't the only stud pitcher in the league at the time. I clearly remember a few people claiming their ace was better than him, and they were some seasons, so it's not really fair to slap that label on me.

Mr. Hasegawa was damn hard to deal with back then as he dominated the RL for 8 seasons before falling off. Muns took advantage of having Cipriano Valdez and made 6 playoff appearances in the first 8 seasons behind him. Juan Sierra hasn't lost his dominance but bz seems to be having a bit of trouble making the playoffs lately. I guess what I'm saying is it's not the one superstar hurler, it's the rest of the pieces you put around him.

As for my recent team building, I pretty much took 5 seasons off from 100% effort to play out my love for old Emmett. Rather than throwing him to the wayside at 35, 36, or 37 when he was on the downhill, I continued to drag his overpaid no stuff ass along just to live out the experience. I didn't know he was going to play until he was 45! Certainly things would have turned around much faster had I dropped him, Hughes, Keyte, and Blackmore, as well as the 45 Mil owed to them each year and jumped directly into a full on rebuild.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Montreal_GM

As for my recent team building, I pretty much took 5 seasons off from 100% effort to play out my love for old Emmett. Rather than throwing him to the wayside at 35, 36, or 37 when he was on the downhill, I continued to drag his overpaid no stuff ass along just to live out the experience. I didn't know he was going to play until he was 45! Certainly things would have turned around much faster had I dropped him, Hughes, Keyte, and Blackmore, as well as the 45 Mil owed to them each year and jumped directly into a full on rebuild.

I remember back in the 1960s with Valdosta I had a similar issue with one of my favorite players a 1B named Heath Palmer who at the time was the best contact hitter in FOOL history. (something like the top 5 or 6 hits in a season were all by him at that point). I decided that there was no way I could contend if I kept him so decided to let him walk but I put up a thread to see what others would do:

What would you do? Free Agency poll (loyalty vs drive to win) - Front Office Football Central

The end result, I did let him walk (eventually brought him back for a final season before he retired though.) The really sad thing though for me was Palmer never did make it to the hall of fame even though at the time he looked as sure of a hall of famer as almost anyone (only a handful of hitters better than him at the time). The influx of vulture league talent and the overall increase of ability across the board made him just look inferior in later years by the time the Hall of Fame opened. To this day though, he is still one of my favorite fake players ever! (Heath Palmer and Brian Hughes)

[Tasan]

I still miss the Vulture league. Scouting it and trying to find someone who might want too much to stay in the league. Then remembering to keep up with the guy for the next few years. I really wish we could have something like it again, but I understand it just doesn't work well in 9. Maybe we need to try it again in an X league.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Tasan

I still miss the Vulture league. Scouting it and trying to find someone who might want too much to stay in the league. Then remembering to keep up with the guy for the next few years. I really wish we could have something like it again, but I understand it just doesn't work well in 9. Maybe we need to try it again in an X league.

The VL was a fun concept. I loved that and wish I'd had a better way of implementing the whole "prospect" angle of things. It was a bit crazy, to be sure, but I loved the excitement of having people fighting over prospects, over vets and guys who could instantly help your squad. The FA period for the real FA period was a fun twist I thought.

Speaking of, it's inspired me to think of an idea I'll post in a different thread so as not to threadjack here.

Muns, you've got an idea on your hands here. I love this little flashback into history.

Chief, no way there's a Top 10 (er..5) list without you in it. You put made the Colorado Rancheros into something more than a dorky name, but something meaningful and then went to Atlanta and gave the Firecrackers fans something to do other than watch Valdosta win year in and year out.

I'm excited to see the list and where everyone plays out, if for no other reason than to see the old names flashback from the old days who really have made this league fun. It's crazy to me that we've been at it for over a year and have done 80+ seasons. That's just astounding for any fictional league.

[muns]

The next set of managers is ready to be released today before the season sim runs.



37.Macro Guru- Macro managed the St.George Dragons Franchise which was disbanded in 1965. Macro never got the team up and running the way he wanted it as he went 129-179 in his short time in FOOL for a win % of .429. He lands where he landed as he won a few more games than some other people below him on this list in spite of him only posting in one FOOL thread.


36. Mr.Bug- He is also another active member in the FOFC community. He came into the league taking over New Orleans from Fairly and he didn’t do much better. He won 136 games and lost 172 for a win % of .442. I would have liked to seen him stay around a bit more, as I think his experience with OOTP would have translated over into FOOL, but it just wasn’t meant to be.


35. Dangarion- Another long long time member of FOFC and a respected member of the OOTP community as well. I was looking forward to him coming into FOOL and just turning any team that he touched into a winner. That however didn’t happen, and I believe the FOOL schedule was too much, and he just never got “into it”. He went 136-172 in his time in FOOL for a win % of .442. Id love for him to be able to come back and give FOOL another shot as I am confident he is every bit as good a manger as I have been told. If your reading this Dan, what do ya say????


34. Jetsin06- Jets managed the Seattle Franchise when it was transitioning into the Columbus Crusaiders. He managed to post in 3 threads over in FOOL, and I believe now is back managing in FOOL H. In his few seasons in FOOL Jets won 279 games with 337 loses with comes out to a win % of .453. I honesty don’t know why he gave up fool, but my memory is a tad bit fuzzy with Jetsin06. He lands at the 36 spot because he won more games than the guys below him.


33. Pike- Pike was a regular here in FOOL for a number of seasons and just quite couldn’t get his Chicago teams together. Pike went 632 and 908 for a win % of .41. That is 4th worst all time in FOOL and the worst all time of anyone that has played in over 1,000 games. Pike posted 232 times in FOOL, and was a regular contributor on the boards here on any number of subjects related to FOOL. Unfortunately for the league and Pike, He got caught up like most of us (me included) in the HA “my team is the best ever threads” and just faded off into the sunset.
One of those threads can be found here, and I cringed reading it.

1983 Regular season thread - Page 5 - Front Office Football Central

I enjoyed Pike and his posts, and his team previews he did was an always a must read for me. One of those can be found here

1983 Team Previews - Front Office Football Central

Pike also had some tongue in cheek moments like below
Hartford releases new poster for potential fans - Front Office Football Central

and if you want a laugh, please look him up in the search engine and read his profile on the left side of the computer screen. He makes a mention of one of our current FOOL members there.

If Pike ever wanted to come back id welcome him back with open arms, even if he wasn’t the greatest in terms of Wins.


Next guys will be released in a few days.

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by muns

Next guys will be released in a few days.

A couple of DAYS?! Dude, this stuff is like drugs to me. I'm pretty sure I'll need a fix before that!!!

P.S. I sure miss Pike after reading that stuff.

[Alan T]

The funny (or ironic) thing about that whole battle back and forth was the topic that started alot of it. The argument was over Shortstop Luke Crawford and whether or not he was worth the $11mil that he was signed for.

I believe Anthony, Commo_Soldier and I argued that Crawford was worth the money, with ekcut also leaning that way if I recall correctly. While everyone else was in disbelief at the money.

Now we are 50 years after the fact, and Luke Crawford is one of only 3 Shortstops in the FOOL Hall of Fame, and until Romero went in as a shortstop (which he only played part of his time), Crawford was the best Shortstop in FOOL history.

I fully realize however that the real reasons for the arguments was more because of a personality conflict where almost no one got along well with Anthony and any little thing would set off a flame war of epic proportions. Wasn't necessarily my favorite period of FOOL baseball since I felt I was constantly playing mother around here.. but looking back at the Crawford debate is kind of funny now.

[TimGuru]

I don't care if they named the hall of fame after the guy, Crawford wasn't worth the money in context of the absolute disaster which was the rest of HA's payroll at the time. **commence LaMaze breathing....happy place...happy place...

I liked Pike.

[muns]

Originally Posted by Alan T

The funny (or ironic) thing about that whole battle back and forth was the topic that started alot of it. The argument was over Shortstop Luke Crawford and whether or not he was worth the $11mil that he was signed for.

I believe Anthony, Commo_Soldier and I argued that Crawford was worth the money, with ekcut also leaning that way if I recall correctly. While everyone else was in disbelief at the money.

Now we are 50 years after the fact, and Luke Crawford is one of only 3 Shortstops in the FOOL Hall of Fame, and until Romero went in as a shortstop (which he only played part of his time), Crawford was the best Shortstop in FOOL history.

I fully realize however that the real reasons for the arguments was more because of a personality conflict where almost no one got along well with Anthony and any little thing would set off a flame war of epic proportions. Wasn't necessarily my favorite period of FOOL baseball since I felt I was constantly playing mother around here.. but looking back at the Crawford debate is kind of funny now.

I actually am going to back Tim up here again

Crawford was good, but he was not worth that kind of money he was getting and I was too busy being pissed off to expain myself "well".

With HA boasting how good his team always was, and trying to get the league rules changed just so he could make the playoffs...... Sigh he just ruffled my feathers all the time and I couldnt help myself from posting back.
I still get weird reading all the stuff I actually posted, so ill appologize again. It wasnt my finest "Fool moment".

The point I was always trying to make (very poorly) was that paying 11 mil for a guy like Crawford wasnt going to make him win and even though Crawford is in the hall and was a fantastic player, HA never did in fact win and paying Crawford 11 mil in that context was silly.

To put that in todays FOOL, last years Tanaka award winner Chong Che doesnt even make 11 mil per season for me now (about 5 mil less) and id gladly take him over Crawford any day of the week. Will Che ever make the hall?? We still have a long time to wait for that, but at least he did get a ring.

Its actually nice talking about the subject now without getting all flustered

[Alan T]

I think your rating of a great all around fielding Shortstop that can also hit well is different then mine.

Obviously Pitching in FOOL is king, those with 1 or 2 stud pitchers have an easier time winning than those without. Pitching is usually not always available in free agency or trades however (at least not the pitching that is good enough to matter.) What is usually available is some form of hitting at most positions, as is good fielding/good hitting players. Those who can both hit and field (at important positions fielding wise) are like #2 on the most important thing list behind pitching.

As a comparison, while I was babysitting Chico for buckinbranco while he was away, I signed Dave Long to a contract pretty similar to Luke Crawford's contract. Long is a better fielder in my opinion than Crawford was but Crawford was by far a better hitter.

So why did I offer Long close to $11mil a year? Because you can't find players who have >100 fielding at all infield positions and all >100 fielding ratings who is not a liability at the bat that often. When you do, I feel they are nearly as important as good pitching. They can make mediocre pitching that much better.

In hindsight, with Crawford, Long Island never made the playoffs.. but that was not Crawford's fault. I think paying 1/6th of the salary cap for that position is perfectly fine if you get the player to fit in there.

I guess if you want to look at it through a cost/value perspective, I would probably break up my salary cap (of $65mil) somehow like this: $20-25mil for two stud pitchers (if you can even find one). $15-20 mil for an outstanding middle infield, $10mil for a stud centerfielder (5-tool player) and then try to find bargains everywhere else.

If you can bring up a young player at CF or SS or 2B that meets your needs, you have that much more to spend in other places. There just always seems to be 1B and Corner outfielders available as well as even relief pitching. Obviously though you don't spend $10mil on a mediocre shortstop just to spend $10 mil on one however.

Anyways, I'm babbling now, I just didn't think that was actually a bad move. If I was going to criticize Anthony's on the field moves, I would have said he overpaid for over the hill pitchers and paid too much for free agent outfielders that were decent but could have been gotten for much cheaper. That limited what complementary pieces that he could bring in.

[muns]

I love it, and that Folks is another reason why this league is so cool. Alan is the winnest guy in FOOL history and we dont see eye to eye all the time on stuff

I give Luke Crawford all of his dues like you said how many SS do we have in the HOF, but I wouldnt have spent 11 mil on him. A guy that gets over 10 mil for me better be in the running of MVP every year. Sure Luke Crawford won it once, but that was becuase everybody and their mom had an off year that year inclduing the guy that won the award his fair shre during that ERA in 3b- and hall of famer Dave Mcgill. Thats where Alan and I disagree team building wise I guess. Also you have to keep in mind that Crawford could also steal a ton of bases along with putting his gold glove at shortstop.

I couldnt and still cant justify paying over 10 mil for a leadoff hitter that could play SS and thats what he was in my eyes. I can find cheaper leadoff hitters that would be worse but have almost the same effect. Heck HA had another leadoff hitter on his team at that point playing OF for him, and I forget his name at the moment which only made that move more puzzling in my eyes, but I also think that was part of the draw. Ha wanted everyone to get all up in a tizzy, and he got it.


I liked that you pulled out the Dave Long card Alan, however im going to say that you cant even count CHICO as yours. You were handcuffed, couldnt trade, and could only play the guys you drafted, and brought in through Free Agency.

The real Alan that isnt hand cuffed by his commish duties, would be doing smart deals all the time (when he could find them), and wasnt into signing guys for mega contracts that werent his own guys. So you had to go after dave longs with deals like that due to your situation in CHICO.
Thats all going off memory though, so dont yell at me too much if im wrong there

Im still trying to do my list otherwise id share my opinions on "D" and pitching as well, but this is an awfully fun discussion.

[muns]

Dola, Id like to get more people chimming in with their own opinions on value/ money if they have a min. Hearing everyone's theories and how they play is also the fun part, for me anyway

[Young Drachma]

I didn't mind that he spent the money either. I didn't think it was the worst signing in the world. He did lots of other things that made his situation lame, but Crawford was the least of his worries. But I chalked that up to his lack of understanding of the format.

Some people dominate other leagues, then come over here and think they can win easily because it's fast-sim and they think "well, everyone gets a turn to win eventually.." and it's just not like that. Luck obviously has more to do with it in fast-sim, as does having the time to invest, coupled with developing prospects week in and week out.

But Crawford wasn't that bad a signing. I never minded throwing money around when I felt like it was going to help me win.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by muns

Heck HA had another leadoff hitter on his team at that point playing OF for him, and I forget his name at the moment which only made that move more puzzling in my eyes, but I also think that was part of the draw.

You are referring to Joe Smith I think, who was a slightly better than average hitting centerfielder with good contact but horrible horrible eye. Not really my favorite type of player.

[Alan T]

One more illustration on my point.. back in those days I used to present a yearly "Win Shares" list for each team. I think i never really brought that back because it didn't seem like many people were that interested in it. Win Shares has its flaws, but for the sake of my argument, I think it serves its point here..

Picking just one year out of the middle of Long Island's run, here are two players that got paid roughly the same amount for that team:

first_name	last_name	HittingWinShares	PitchingWinShares	FieldingWinShares	TotalWinShares
"Luke"	"Crawford"	25.8731255025031	0	6.45581879639076	32.3289442988939
"John"	"Hunt"	12.963149216274	0	2.36902869970318	15.3321779159772

For the same amount of money in 1980, Luke Crawford contributed twice as much as John Hunt (the middle of their lineup) did. Just for reference, how important was Crawford's 32 Win shares for his team that year?

In 2032 FOOL, only 3 players in FOOL had that many win shares for their own team. (Run-ming Zhui, Ramon Santos and Jesus Estrada). That many win shares means that Crawford deserved that much money honestly it equaled roughly $1 mil per win that Crawford was responsible for that team that season.

I don't have the 2033 Win shares for FOOL computed yet (I do it after the playoffs usually), so can't really give a comparison just yet on how it compares to today's time. Anyways, I agree.. I love fun conversations like this. I find them very interesting personally The only thing better would be if we were in a bar with a beer for the discussion!