Thoughts on Retooling.

[Ben E Lou]

OK. We're at less than 10 people exporting. We need to either shut down, or make the league more attractive. Here are some thoughts for the latter.

1. Allow existing owners to protect five players.
2. Release everyone else into FA pool.
3. Massive recruitment, under the following new rules/schedule.


1. Use dead cap tool to penalize all teams 20% of the cap.
2. Remove 3-year-deal house rule in favor of something much simpler: no franchising a player signed to a one-year deal previously.
3. Re-institute the draft.
4. Use the following schedule (it's one week longer than the existing one):

COUNT	DAY	STAGE
1	Saturday	Staff
2	Sunday	Franchise/Ticket/Summer/FA1:1
3	Monday	FA1:2-3
4	Tuesday	FA1:4-5 Begin Draft
5	Wednesday	FA1:6-7
6	Thursday	FA1:8-9
7	Friday	FA1:10-12 End Draft
8	Saturday	FA2:1
9	Sunday	FA2:2
10	Monday	FA2:3-5
11	Tuesday	TC
12	Wednesday	PreMidWeek
13	Thursday	Preseason
14	Friday	Weeks1-4
15	Saturday
16	Sunday
17	Monday	Weeks5-9
18	Tuesday	Weeks10-13
19	Wednesday	Weeks14-17
20	Thursday	Playoffs
21	Friday	Super Bowl

Thoughts? I'm thinking I want to do something after this season is over.

[TheMeat]

The only thing that I really really don't like is the draft. I think the FA madness is what makes this league unique. And more realistic. My interest in my IHOF team is very hit-n-miss due to one fact, I suck donkey balls and the 2 years I've had the 1st overall pick all I got was a mediocre RB both years. So I know that I can't even hope to compete for a division title, let alone a championship for probably over a year of real time.

I also love the fast-paced schedule here, I'd prefer a season a week over the slowass way most leagues run. I'm not disagreeing that something should and could be done to make the league more attractive for new owners, but I think the current setup is pretty fun.

[Sef0r]

Any thoughts on starting over? I don't think any of the records since this league has started will be touched with the way 6.3a is playing out.

Big recruiting drive bringing people into a brand new league, starting from year 2009 (all records reset in that case). This allows potential new owners to see that they can be part of a new league, take a team for themselves and start from scratch with everyone else.

While I would hate to see all the players I've had lost into the nether realms I just think it would be easier to get people in if starting fresh. They will feel more attachment to their team...I think you get what I'm saying (I hope )

Your schedule is fine, keeping rules simple is great.

[Sef0r]

Originally Posted by TheMeat

The only thing that I really really don't like is the draft.

I am split there, but regardless we would be in the minority. Most people like the draft, they like that sense of achievement of drafting someone that goes on to succeed, etc. I would love to keep the current format, but there just isn't any interest from the majority of FOF players who don't like the fast pace and also the lack of draft.

Splitting the regular season into multiple days will work to get some people in. That full regular season in 1 day put some people off because they coulnd't make adjustments, sub players who didn't do as well as predicted and other in season micromanagement stuff that people like to do.

[Sef0r]

1 more thing, I think we let this league run another season after this one. Can we really get enough people recruited by the start of (a possible) new league format come Monday?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

1. Use dead cap tool to penalize all teams 20% of the cap.
2. Remove 3-year-deal house rule in favor of something much simpler: no franchising a player signed to a one-year deal previously.

Meat, I'm pretty sure that this will keep free agency vibrant. It won't be as all-out crazy, of course, but it'll keep FA as a way for teams to build quickly.

Sefor, I was thinking a restart, but I didn't want to alienate the 8 or 9 of you who are still around. If we restarted, I think we'd do a draft of maybe 24 rounds.

As for the draft, I think the lack of one is the #1 thing that keeps people from joining, even more than the speed.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Sef0r

1 more thing, I think we let this league run another season after this one. Can we really get enough people recruited by the start of (a possible) new league format come Monday?

I'd put things on hold until we get at least 24 owners. The other factor here is that in the league's current state, it feels like work to me as the commish with little payoff. I suppose if someone wants to sim the season or two until recruitment is complete, then that's fine. But I think I'm basically done simming this for so few people once we've completed season 25 (this year).

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

1. Allow existing owners to protect five players.
2. Release everyone else into FA pool.

Honestly, this will probably push me out of the league. I've been frustrated with our previous player dumpings and expressed that I really don't want to go through it again.


I think I'd prefer a complete reboot over this option above. This universe is over and start a new universe with pure 6.3a stats. Even then, I might be out - but my odds of sticking around are at least slightly higher.


Honestly - I'm not sure why we need a team dump to attract new owners. On top of that, what do we accomplish? Another 4-5 season boost of ownership just to drop down to 10 and be back in this same position again?

Idano... it seems like we go through this every 5ish seasons and want to completely wipe teams - that's just not what I'm in it for.

[Bako]

Hard to believe I have already been here for 12 seasons now and in those 12 seasons I think I have missed just one export.

I enjoy this league quite a bit, even with only 9 active GM's. I get up at 4:50 pacific like a kid on Christmas just to see who I signed in the FA stage, or to see if by some miracle I was able to beat a GM that is a better gameplanner than me. I love the pace and the fact that there is no draft in this league.

As much as I love the format we currently use, I would stay regardless. Playing with the owners we have here is making me a better GM because it is more challenging. I would like the new format of each of us getting to pick 5 players and the rest getting released back into the wild. As much as I don't want a draft, there are many who would join to be apart of a draft and our numbers would go up undoubtedly.

The one thing I am against is a restart. I would hate to hit the restart button and lose everything I have done with my team. I have put in a lot of time and would hate to see it wiped away. Kind of like when my mom used to hit the power button if I was playing too much Mario Bros back in the day. Stating over made me less interested, but I would still do it.

[gstelmack]

1. No draft. It's eliminated the whole tanking issue.
2. Complete restart with 6.3a universe. If you want to sim 20 years to get rid of the initial player pool. I'm fine with that.
3. With the increased demands from top-tier talent, leave the financials at default. The only rule I might consider is the "don't franchise a guy you did a one-year deal on the year before", although I'm not sure even that is truly necessary.

But I'm also fine with just continuing as-is. If we put a draft in I'll probably leave as the time requirement would go way up, and I don't get enough out of FOF to put that time in anymore.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Bako

The one thing I am against is a restart. I would hate to hit the restart button and lose everything I have done with my team. I have put in a lot of time and would hate to see it wiped away. Kind of like when my mom used to hit the power button if I was playing too much Mario Bros back in the day. Stating over made me less interested, but I would still do it.

How does you only keeping 5 players not do that as well?

[Bako]

Originally Posted by wade moore

How does you only keeping 5 players not do that as well?

I was looking at the franchise as a whole as well. I just moved my team to my home town and am becoming really immersed in the team as a whole. So if the choices were a) a restart or b) keeping five, I would much rather go with b.

It didn't seem like carrying on as is was an option for Ben.

[Subby]

Not really interested in a draft based league - I love how tanking is eliminated with this set up.

Can we just put in the cap shim and go from there?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Bako

I was looking at the franchise as a whole as well. I just moved my team to my home town and am becoming really immersed in the team as a whole. So if the choices were a) a restart or b) keeping five, I would much rather go with b.

It didn't seem like carrying on as is was an option for Ben.

I don't think it's an option for Ben with 10 owners.

But if there is a way to carry-on and increase ownership, I think he'd be open.

[TTWS]

If the leagues resets i might pull out, i like the set up the way it is even though i've never won. Maybe switching the timing of the steps, so free agents week 1 stage 2 starts on a friday so everyone has a 3 day window to do the most important stage. Maybe even list are schedule showing new comers what stages can be skipped, or maybe even cut out FA2 week 2, summer and coach signings to free up 3 extra days to expand an extra day on FA2 week 1-2,3-5, and regular season lineup day.

[TTWS]

I think the fact all the Bowl wins are either all Atlanta's or a handfull of wins by 3 or so guys, leave's alot of guys giving up due to no WINS IN THE PLAYOFFS if they even get there! Seeing minimal improvements in teams performance regardless of roster improvements due to the fact the top guys kick ass, scare's some away right away, some later down the road. Most guys say they quit because there busy, but most guys i know dont like to lose, and when they do they seem to move on to something else.

[Tasan]

Well I really like our schedule and the no-draft system. I know, though, that the schedule is just really hard on some folks. What I wouldn't want to see is the inclusion of weekend exports. I really like that we don't do them now, and it would really be a deal breaker for me. Also, I don't like extra cap rules. Its just a headache to deal with and not very fun from my standpoint.

[Ben E Lou]

I wonder if the answer is just for *me* to pull out. It sounds like I'm the only one left who wants a lot of change. Does anyone want to take over as commish? (I can give a quick tutorial on keeping the web stuff going. It's actually very easy with DBUpdater.)

[Sef0r]

Maybe a reboot while still keeping our current rules will still be okay.
I think people may like the idea of starting fresh with 6.3a

I think we promote this in as many forums as possible as the "REBOOT of the FOWL League - start fresh"

Maybe we put this into the main forums as a poll asking if people would be interested in joining this league with fresh 6.3a stats, WITH or WITHOUT a draft. I think if Ben posted this into main thread it would get more interest, people seem to respond better the you Ben.

- 5 round draft to start the league, after that the rest of the players get thrown into FA pool for everyone to bid on.
- Draft, or NO draft depending on outcome of poll.
- NO Franchising player signed to ONE year deal the year before.

[Sef0r]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I wonder if the answer is just for *me* to pull out. It sounds like I'm the only one left who wants a lot of change. Does anyone want to take over as commish? (I can give a quick tutorial on keeping the web stuff going. It's actually very easy with DBUpdater.)

If you have lost interest in the league then I guess there is no point doing any of the changes and yes, you should probably just leave - but I would rather you stay.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I wonder if the answer is just for *me* to pull out. It sounds like I'm the only one left who wants a lot of change. Does anyone want to take over as commish? (I can give a quick tutorial on keeping the web stuff going. It's actually very easy with DBUpdater.)

Why do you want change? Does this go beyond needing more human GMs?

[TheMeat]

I am completely willing to take over as commish if that`s the best way to do things. I`m hearing that the few folks left here like the way the league is for the most part and I love love love this league. I am also used to having leagues with low ownership because it`s usually me vs TTWS in everything we`ve played for the last 18 years.

I am also open to the idea of a restart, it`d be fun having all the stats be 6.3 but if we`re not in need of any major changes I`d prefer to keep the legacies that we`ve established. The major draw of this league for me is the no-injuries fast-paced action. Slower leagues are agonizing for me. What does everyone think about using weekend sims? I like that idea, we could actually do a season a week. It's possible.

I think this is the time for everyone who wants to continue forward to post their likes and dislikes and get some changes going, this has always been a league of experiment and innovation so lets try some things. And if you're feeling some burnout Ben, no one could blame you, you do a ton of work for various leagues and FOF in general. I would hope that if someone else takes over the work you'd still be around to dominate us every year

[wade moore]

I should be careful before pushing Ben away on my side...

I'm also bothered by the low participation. A part of me wonders if this just isn't meant to last. I'd be fine with all rule changes except for the cut the whole team thing. But if Ben leaves, we're down one more - and one I really like to compete with.. if we start floating in single digits, I might not last long either.

[Bako]

Originally Posted by TheMeat

I think this is the time for everyone who wants to continue forward to post their likes and dislikes and get some changes going, this has always been a league of experiment and innovation so lets try some things. And if you're feeling some burnout Ben, no one could blame you, you do a ton of work for various leagues and FOF in general. I would hope that if someone else takes over the work you'd still be around to dominate us every year

I am a fan of no draft, no injuries, and fast paced. I am not a fan of a restart and additional caps rules.

This is my experimental league, and I have no plans to leave whatever happens........even if it was just Meat, TTWS and myself. I hope it doesn't get to that obviously, but it is better than single player.

I would be more active in the forum if this site wasn't blocked at my work. Anyone have any tips to get around that block?

[Sef0r]

Well regardless of the suggestions I made my first and only option will be to leave it as is and just go all out promoting the league. Maybe a restart with 6.3a but keeping all the current rules is best.

I like 2 week seasonal sims. I like no weekend sims. I life no draft, no injuries, 1 day regular season sim. I just straight up love this league. I am probably more into as I've really only been involved in the MP scene for just over a year, unless most year who i guess have been around since even before 2k7.

[TheMeat]

One thing me and TTWS have talked about is that it would be great to run the first day of free agency on a monday so everyone has all weekend to look through rookies instead of one night. This could probably time out nicely to run the season over the course of the next weekend. That way people who don't want to be exporting on weekends don't have to, and I think it would add some suspense to the season. He mentioned it earlier in the thread but I think it deserves re-mentioning.

Another idea I had would be to implement a type of draft where the human controlled teams get to pick one player out of the class, worst team going first. We have a thread on the forums where you announce your pick and you submit an offer of a pre-determined amount (say 15mil per season) and you are the only guy that gets to bid on him. We could even run FA2:1 just for those picks, assuming we could get them all to sign without re-simming a million times. It would add some incentive for teams not doing so well and make it so new players don't get torn apart in the shark infested waters of free agency. Really, I'd prefer as little rules as possible so this is just a brainstorming kind of idea, I like the FA madness we have now.

I also think CPU teams should be set to not bid on free agents during FA:1 so we get to bid on free agents if they want too much on a reneg.

I'm glad to hear you like the league so much Bako and C4, I feel the same that I would still gladly participate even if it was only 4 teams but I think with recruiting we could keep that number at 10+. Once we get something ironed out we will get a plan together for recruiting in the short and long-term. A weekly post in a handful of forums could encourage people to join up, and this is also a great league for people who want to spend some time building a team and then let them coast through 6 seasons while they don't have to do much. I don't see any problem with off-and-on ownership.

Schedule proposals:

1 Week Super-Fast Sim for the real hardcores:

Monday = FA2:1-2 (since not many players sign in stage 1 or 2)
Tuesday = FA2:3-5
Wednesday = Training Camp
Thursday = Preseason
Friday = Regular Season
Saturday = Playoffs
Sunday = We'd have a lot of things to do here but I think we can realistically skip coach hiring, franchise tags and summer league and just do FA:1. We could even skip FA:1 if people agreed to not care about interviews. Maybe a rule that rookies need to be offered 4 yr deals to eliminate the need for them to be re-signed in year 4. So really, we could leave this day blank. This would effectively clear the weekend, I think it's common that people don't like weekend exports that include important stages. Maybe just do coach hiring because we need to build stadiums and re-locate but most of the time this stage is pointless so people rarely would have to export for sunday.

Now THAT is some awesome fast-sim action

2 Week Schedule Proposal:

Monday = FA2:1
Tuesday = FA2:2
Wednesday = FA2:3-5
Thursday = Training Camp
Friday = Preseason

Monday = Regular Season
Tuesday = Playoffs
Wednesday = Coaches/Stadiums
Thursday = Franchise/Summer League
Friday = FA1

[Sef0r]

Ben, if you only had to do an export would you stick around - assuming Meat takes over the simming and main operations of th league?

Anyways, lets say we leave it as it is now, running the exact same schedule with the addition of a few rules.

===========================================================
"The FOWL League REBOOTS - come join a fresh 6.3a league"

The FOWL league will be starting fresh on March XX, 2010. Come in and claim a team in this unique league where Team, Player and Cap management will test even the hardened veterans. There is NO season to season draft which means no tanking.

All teams will be starting fresh with a random player generated file to draft from. Only the first 22 rounds will be drafted, the rest will be scout picked.

During the time when the draft is normall run, the worse 224 players will be drafted to each team. You don't have to sign those players. The rest of the players, i.e. the rest of the BEST will be put into the Free Agent pool for ALL teams to bid on during the FA2 stages which will be broken up into 3 stages. The stop teams from signing studs to HUGE 1 year contracts the following rules will apply.

1 - A minimum 3 year contract must be offered to ALL players during the FA2 stages. You are allowed to offer ANY deal after these stages, like before Training Camp.
2 - Owner is not allowed to FRANCHISE a player they signed to a 1 year deal the year before.

Follow your teams progress without access to the FOF game through the league's website - ENTER WEBSITE HERE.

None of the scores will be shown, allowing you to view each gamelog before knowing the outcome of the game. (This is obviously assuming Ben can remove the score results from the site, sorry - I don't know).

This is what the schedule will look like.


Day 1 Thu - Staff
Day 2 Fri - Franchise/Summer/Ticket/FA1:1-12
Day 3 Mon - FA2:1
Day 4 Tue - FA2:2
Day 5 Wed - FA2:3-5
Day 6 Thu - TC
Day 7 Fri - Pre Season
Day 8 Mon - Regular Season weeks 1-4
Day 9 Tue - Regular Season weeks 5-17
Day 10 Wed - Playoffs


1 - Notice the we start on Thursday. This allows owners to view/study the draft class over the weekend and get ready for the bidding wars on Monday.
2 - All FA1 stages will be simmed during the franchise stage so no teams, including AI teams, will be signing UFAs, or RFAs for that matter, until FA2 stages.
3 - The regular season is broken up into 2 days to allow owners to study how their gameplan and team lineup is working for the first 4 games of the regular season and make adjustments before the rest of the regular season is simmed the following day.

Best thing about this league is that you get to follow a player's progress quickly, see how he does in the league, see if he sets some records along the way. You could see a WR from rookie to a retired all star in 20 weeks.

You interested in joining? Head on over to [ENTER league FORUM URL here], read the rules and sign up.

Don't get put off by the lack of a draft. You will get a chance to land practically any player, be careful since it is a bidding war.
Don't get put off by the speed of the league. There are some stages you can easily miss that won't hurt your chances, i.e. staff, TC and Pre season.
===========================================================

Anyways, thats what I was thinking.

[Sef0r]

By the way Meat, I am all for trying out that 1 week sim, even as a trial for next season (assuming Ben decides to he will hand over the commish duties), then when we get experience with it, it will give us an idea of how we can discribe it to the masses as we try and promote the league reboot (this of course assumes a league reboot).

[TTWS]

I think avoiding the draft is the way to go, and id prefer no reboot.

[Tasan]

Please, please please no splitting up the season into two sims. I think the whole idea of this league is to one-shot the season.

[Sef0r]

Originally Posted by Tasan

Please, please please no splitting up the season into two sims. I think the whole idea of this league is to one-shot the season.

It was just to allow the chance for those who may have loaded incorrect gameplans or team lineups to alter it. Its happened in the past, and we've lost owners over it. It was also just a suggestion. The Pre season is not a good way to review player performances, at least not to some people.

I also wouldn't want a reboot, given the number of my former players being in the top 30 all time in some positions (and also current players on the way into those record books). However, I believe this to be the only way to attract new owners.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Why do you want change? Does this go beyond needing more human GMs?

Because I think that for this format to work, we need more human GMs. And I'm convinced that we'll never get enough human GMs with the combination of speed and lack of an ammy draft that we have. I like the setup just as it is, and if I thought we could ever get 32 (or even 20) consistent human owners in it, I wouldn't be suggesting any change whatsoever.

As for the question about me sticking around as non-commish: I would at first, but odds are that I'd end up quitting. I'd probably end up starting a new league similar to what I mentioned, and that would take my time away from this one.

[TheMeat]

The only reason I suggested splitting it was to give a feeling of suspense

Even though I recently shittied up my season (last season) by setting things incorrectly I like seeing the results all at once.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

1. Allow existing owners to protect five players.
2. Release everyone else into FA pool.
3. Massive recruitment, under the following new rules/schedule.


1. Use dead cap tool to penalize all teams 20% of the cap.
2. Remove 3-year-deal house rule in favor of something much simpler: no franchising a player signed to a one-year deal previously.
3. Re-institute the draft.
4. Use the following schedule (it's one week longer than the existing one):

Given Ben's point on ownership, here are my thoughts on the suggestions above:

1. I'd prefer a complete reboot with 6.3a as opposed to releasing everyone into the pool.
2. I don't like mucking with the cap numbers, etc, given that 6.3a already has players, especially top-tier ones, asking for large contracts.
3. I like the "no franchising a guy signed to a one-year deal" rule.
4. I can live with the draft, with one exception broken out below.
5. I can live with this schedule, where the only weekend sims are late FA that aren't a huge deal to miss.

My one other suggestion: eliminate trading. This does several things:

1. Eliminates raping of owners to get high first round picks, that usually just lets the strong get stronger.
2. Forces folks to either keep or release guys into the FA pool. I don't know where WOOF has gone the last few seasons, but all the contract rules that were instituted there primarily beefed up the trade market, not the FA pool (which was the desired intent). Kill the trade market, especially in a faster league without a lot of time to negotiate trades, and let owners either keep their overpriced guys, or dump them into the FA pool to beef it up.

I am concerned that bringing back the draft also brings back tanking, but given that QB/WR/WR is not the killer strategy it was, 6.3a has probably helped reduce the impact of needing a top-3 pick to win a Bowl, so I'm willing to try it.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Bako

I was looking at the franchise as a whole as well. I just moved my team to my home town and am becoming really immersed in the team as a whole. So if the choices were a) a restart or b) keeping five, I would much rather go with b.

It didn't seem like carrying on as is was an option for Ben.

I will say that on a reboot, I'd have no problems with folks who have moved to a city they like keeping that on the reboot. Ben just has to move them in-game and use those as the base cities/nicks files.

[wade moore]

Ok, a few thoughts...

After chatting with Ben some and looking at my roster, I'm warming up to the 5 player idea.

So, a few comments:

1. Greg - not sure why you're hesitant about the 20% cap rule. We've seen already at WOOF the positives of it. Yes, some players are asking for bigger contracts - but it's still nowhere close to "right".

2. I'd consider just removing ALL contract rules if we did the 20%. Not even the 1 year sign-and-tag. Part of the appeal to this setup, imo, is not having to abide by as many rules and being able to play around. I don't mind the tag rule, just for simplicity's sake I see no problem with removing that too.

3. I like the no-trade rule. It's happened naturally in this format, but would probably come back in a draft setup.

4. We'd need carefully established draft rules. I'm not sure what those are, but...

5. I'm fine with FA2 on the weekends partially now with a draft in place. If we still have no draft, FA2:3-5 being submitted on Sunday is a BAD idea.




------------

All of that being said I'm concerned this becomes a band-aid. I don't think it does, but that's my worry. Something is keeping people away now. Is it the pace? Is it the no draft? Is it intimidation? How does this solve those problems? It's a bit slower, but still fast. The draft is back. How does this become that much different than what we've tried in the past and had it fail?

[TTWS]

Why bother staying in this league if it moves to a draft! If i wanted the draft i would've joined one with a draft not this one! I really could care less if old stats are inflated if this is a reason for concern, since just like real life sports stats, they are relative to the era. I also wonder why the @#!% im typing in this forum and doing my lineup for my team if its just going to be skidded! It would be nice if people just joined one of the many drafted leagues if thats what they want.

[wade moore]

TTWS - the problem is participation. The league is pointless (imo, and ben's too clearly) with less than 10 (or really, less than say 20) human owners.

[Sef0r]

How about we put a question into the main forums and just ask people...

=============================
"the NO DRAFT league, why no interest?"

The FOWL league has dwindled down to 9 active owners. What keeps YOU away from this league?

1 - Is it not having a draft?
2 - The 2 week schedule?
3 - the 3 year contract rule on FAs in FA2 stages?
4 - too challenging? Not challenging?

The league will likely dissapear if we don't get more owners so we are just trying to get an idea of why this format doesn't work for some.
=============================

I am all for staying the course and hopefully get some new owners. The current format I think works really well, but I guess I would say that given I've been doing it along with some others since it changed.

I also don't want a reboot, I've got players I want to see in the record books and just be able to look back 15 seasons ago and look at those player stats.

Can someone with high enough recognition in the FOFC community post that question into the main thread?

[TTWS]

Maybe with each division occupied by a dedicated owner that alone would start to spice it up (Use realignment if needed). Before scrapping the current system maybe theres time for a OWNER'S DRIVE also ( I've mentioned in the open teams thread my freind is in most likely next season with the current format, that puts the teams at 10 or back to 9 if Ben pulls out). I've had a fun time losing to the few teams that have been owned in this league, so participation i guess has'nt left me feeling like the leagues a pointless pursuit. I hope THEMEAT takes over as commish and things stay somewhat the same, THEMEAT would do a great job at reviving this league if needed. He loves this format.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by TTWS

Why bother staying in this league if it moves to a draft! If i wanted the draft i would've joined one with a draft not this one!

FWIW, the more I think about this, the more I come back to this opinion. With Ben's proposal, what's the difference between this league and WOOF again? Maybe a week of real time, maybe a house rule or two? If there is no differentiator, then maybe this league does need to die.

As pointed out above, do we know for sure WHY people are leaving?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

FWIW, the more I think about this, the more I come back to this opinion. With Ben's proposal, what's the difference between this league and WOOF again? Maybe a week of real time, maybe a house rule or two? If there is no differentiator, then maybe this league does need to die.

As pointed out above, do we know for sure WHY people are leaving?

I can't speak for everyone else, but for me it was just simply a matter of not having enough time.

I loved the no draft, I loved alot of the things that made FOWL unique. There just are a zillion stages in FOF multiplayer (the game is not very multiplayer friendly compared to other games like OOTP), and I just simply don't have the time right now (barely have the time to hang on as it is).

So if others are in the same boat as me, tinkering the rules to make it more unique isn't really needed, it already is unique. I think it just was too much of a workload for most people probably.

[Tasan]

Originally Posted by Alan T

So if others are in the same boat as me, tinkering the rules to make it more unique isn't really needed, it already is unique. I think it just was too much of a workload for most people probably.

This.

What I crave is a football equivalent to FOOL. Ready Aim Fire BOOM. Next week, new season, sins of the past sim are gone and you can rebuild right now. FOF just doesn't set itself up well for doing this in a owner friendly way. We can't get below 32 teams, so we're always going to run around 50% or less. Too many folks are used to many traditional aspect of FOF, like the draft and fixing gameplans mid-stream. And finally, FOF itself is a lot more cumbersome in its offseason to move very fast.

I think if there was a good way to get us down to a week, we would rock along with 14-18 owners. Its just too difficult to do with FOF.

[TheMeat]

But... But.....

I posted a weekly sim schedule!

I think it'd be great! Since what this league really offers is that speedy sim schedule I don't think there's a need to compete with other leagues by becoming more like them. I actually like the sounds of Ben's league but it's borrowing some from the vNfl edge and other recent changes to other leagues if I'm not mistaken? I would definitely join a new league under those rules. But what if we do that and it's still low participation? There's no guarantee it'll become any more full than this. It's just hard to find the hardcores out there, people who want to do daily exports. The other leagues are so incredibly slow and boring it's really just a haven for guys to bullshit on the forums and ponder the meaningless minutae of gameplanning on a game-by-game basis or dealing with the crazy randomness of injuries. And yes, people LOVE to draft. That shouldn't mean that we HAVE to have one. The draft takes the longest of any stage of the game.

I think at any rate, even if we start a new league, we should continue with this one. Even as it is with low ownership and I don't blame you Ben for not wanting to do the commish work for what is little reward for you. I would gladly do it and find it very rewarding. I really think we should put the petal to the metal and eliminate as many rules and boring stages as possible. One season a week is totally possible, even without weekend sims. Or we just use a 7-stage season, never use weekends and just keep rotating it through weekdays. I believe the FOWL should continue to offer what no other league offers. That's why I like the FOOL-X, I hate baseball, and I have never even been tempted to play any SP OOTP, but a season a week? I love it.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

As pointed out above, do we know for sure WHY people are leaving?

Well, I've been on the bubble for a bit, and honestly should have left a while ago.

I have just got too much going on in life atm to keep to a schedule like this one requires.

I feel that the initial rush of the league was the speed and the radical ideas. And for a while, that was the lure of it for me as well. But as time has gone on, I'd miss an export because of one thing or another and it has happened enough times where I have almost no interest now. And what was a bonus, the speed, has become the biggest factor in me leaving.

Part of me wants to stick around, especially for a reboot, but I've made a commitment to myself to reduce my number of leagues, get back to what I enjoy about FoF and rededicate myself to the GEFL.

So, reguardless of the changes or no changes being made, this is my last season in the league. Sorry.

[gstelmack]

So we're caught in a catch-22: speed is driving folks away, but speed is our primary differentiator for every other league, and there's no reason to be in FOWL if it's the same as all the others.

So what if we do Ben's 3-week schedule to slow down, or even a 4-week traditional schedule, but no draft as our differentiator? No tanking, but traditional pace?

[Groo]

I had to drop the league for the same reason as Yoda is... just too fast. One export missed can be huge.

Fact is, I like everything else about the league's setup. Unfortunately, with so few players you really can't see how interesting the system is. When you are bidding against 10 other guys instead of 30, it sorta stunts the league.

Finally, getting started in this league is a big pain in the ass. You are up against established teams, and their budget and roster are pretty much set. So, if you want that star CB, and a couple of established teams need a CB, you are screwing your cap for 3 years if you want to grab him.

FWIW, my thoughts on getting this league going again would be:

1) Slow the league down. Especially in FA2. Every day, with all that goes on in most sims, is too much for most people to handle.
2) Restart the league. New players coming into the league are at a disadvantage. It takes YEARS to overcome. 4 years for me before the Jets went 14-2, because they finally had the players to compete. And, the more people in the league, the harder it would be to have a chance to compete. Took me 4 years with 10-14 or so people in the league.


The basic principle makes it interesting and challenging. I LOVE the setup. However, only a small minority are interested in a league that is so different and unique. That reduces your possible GMs significantly. Add the speed of the league, and that further reduces the number of players. Then add the fact that you are starting with a clean slate against some established teams, and you even further reduce the possible owners.

If you want this league to continue and get better, I think you HAVE to restart the league and slow it down, OR it has to become something akin to a 'regular' league, and not something special.

This league is basically dead if you don't at least slow the league down. With under a dozen GMs, it just makes sense, to me at least, to restart the league and recruit to start the league over. I'd rejoin the league if it was a M-W-F or T-Th-S league with the same rules... as long as the league was full or very close to it. I just have no interest in playing in a half full (or worse) league, or a league that is moving as fast as this league moves.

[Sef0r]

What is the most important export?
That export should fall on a Monday, giving people the weekend to get it in.

Everything remains the same, schedule gets moved so that FA2:1 starts on a Monday.

[wade moore]

So... it taking 2 real life months to go 14-2 is a big deal?

Not what my analysis would have been.

[TTWS]

It would be nice if THEMEAT was left to run this league, and if it goes down in flames who cares since it seems BEN set on starting a new one anyways. I like the fact the bidding system speeds up building a winner not slowing it down. Drafted leagues id imagine take alot longer to build a winner.