Two men enter. One man leaves (Ali v. Tyson)

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

ali turned 70 today. never would have seen 30 if he'd fought tyson in his prime.

exhibit a: @ 4:16 tyson misses with a hook that, had it connected, would have ripped a hole in the fabric of space and time.


(i really don't have a strong opinion either way. but i've heard this debate 4 times already today and figured we could argue about something other than tebow)

[cartman]

Tyson in his prime was a scary man, probably as close to unbeatable as there has ever been. But the same was said about Foreman before the Rumble in the Jungle. I'm not sure the rope-a-dope would have worked with the punches coming up from Tyson as opposed to down from Foreman.

[A-Husker-4-Life]

Ali would destroy Tyson.. reference Holyfield fights..

[TRO]

Originally Posted by A-Husker-4-Life

Ali would destroy Tyson.. reference Holyfield fights..

Wouldn't that be Tyson would eat Ali?

[cartman]

He was past his prime for the Holyfield fights. From about his 5th fight until a couple before Buster Douglas is what I consider his prime.

[Toddzilla]

What? Tyson would probably kill Ali, he's 70 years old for chrissakes.

[larrymcg421]

Tony Tucker, James Smith, Mitch Green, and James Tillis took Tyson the distance in his prime. I have no doubt Ali could have done the same.

[EagleFan]

Ali in his prime schools Tyson in his prime. Ali knew how to fight, Tyson knew how to hit hard.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Tony Tucker, James Smith, Mitch Green, and James Tillis took Tyson the distance in his prime. I have no doubt Ali could have done the same.

Alonzo Johnson, Doug Jones and Ernie Terrell did the same to Ali, so I'm not sure that's a good measure.

I think some guys could take even a prime Tyson (George Foreman, for example, would have given Tyson fits), but Tyson's style and size was very similar to that of Joe Frazier and we all know Joe gave Ali all he could handle. I think the fight comes down to heart and ring size. While that gives Ali the clear advantage, I don't think Tyson would ever quit a fight with Cus D'Amato in his corner. So I'm going to assume Cus is in the Tyson corner. Also, a big ring favors Ali while a small one favors Tyson.

So who would win? I'd give the edge to Ali simply because Ali had an unbelievable chin. Even if Tyson connected, Ali would be able to get up. But would I be surprised to see a prime Tyson chop Ali down in a small ring? No, I wouldn't.

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Ali in his prime schools Tyson in his prime. Ali knew how to fight, Tyson knew how to hit hard.

From a boxing skills standpoint this isn't really accurate. Tyson had a great jab, especially for a short guy. His head/body movement were unsurpassed and Cus taught him the peekaboo style very well. Also, Tyson had good footwork and was rarely off balance. He was fundamentally very sound at 20-21 years old. He'd come in behind that jab, weaving and ducking, until he got in close and then could tee off with hooks and uppercuts. He also put together his punches in combinations on the inside. Then he'd catch his opponent stepping out and that's when the knockout happened. Fundamentally, I think we was far more sound than Frazier.

As he got older, you'll notice those skills actually decline and it's the lack of head movement that finally did him in. He simply became a one-shot knockout fighter and that's no way to fight against bigger guys.

[Breeze]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Alonzo Johnson, Doug Jones and Ernie Terrell did the same to Ali, so I'm not sure that's a good measure.

I think some guys could take even a prime Tyson (George Foreman, for example, would have given Tyson fits), but Tyson's style and size was very similar to that of Joe Frazier and we all know Joe gave Ali all he could handle. I think the fight comes down to heart and ring size. While that gives Ali the clear advantage, I don't think Tyson would ever quit a fight with Cus D'Amato in his corner. So I'm going to assume Cus is in the Tyson corner. Also, a big ring favors Ali while a small one favors Tyson.

So who would win? I'd give the edge to Ali simply because Ali had an unbelievable chin. Even if Tyson connected, Ali would be able to get up. But would I be surprised to see a prime Tyson chop Ali down in a small ring? No, I wouldn't.

I agree with the Foreman gives Tyson fits opinion. For the same reason Frazier had no success against Foreman. Styles make fights, and Fraziers low bob and weave was similar enough to Tyson's approach that I think Foreman destroys him the way he beat up Frazier...

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

What? Tyson would probably kill Ali, he's 70 years old for chrissakes.

That would be a crappy birthday present: a crazy (redundant) Mike Tyson at your door.

SI

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

That would be a crappy birthday present: a crazy (redundant) Mike Tyson at your door.

SI

"Hi, I'm here to eat your children."

[sabotai]

With Cus or Rooney training Tyson, you'd get fights similar to the Ali-Frazier fights. With any of the clowns they brought in to train him after Rooney was fired, Tyson gets destroyed.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by sabotai

With Cus or Rooney training Tyson, you'd get fights similar to the Ali-Frazier fights. With any of the clowns they brought in to train him after Rooney was fired, Tyson gets destroyed.

+1. I think partly what sets him apart was the speed of his power pushes. I know when Frazier died people were talking about his last fight with Ali and the reason Ali won was due to Frazier quitting first.

[RainMaker]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Tyson in an era where there wasn't a lot of good competition in the heavyweight division? While Ali had a lot.

[RainMaker]

Also, it's kind of sad that I don't even know who the heavyweight champion is these days.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Tyson in an era where there wasn't a lot of good competition in the heavyweight division? While Ali had a lot.

Biggest criticism of Holmes and Tyson.

[Pumpy Tudors]

the real debate should be: could mike tyson in his prime eat babies faster than shawn kemp in his prime could make babies

i mean damn am i the only one wondering this

[JediKooter]

I think Tyson has done a pretty good job for himself after his boxing career with that chicken empire he has.

[cougarfreak]

Ali would have no problem with Mike Tyson. Iron Mike didn't beat much of anybody.

[Antmeister]

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Also, it's kind of sad that I don't even know who the heavyweight champion is these days.

I think its the Russian guy, his brother, and 30 other people.

[tarcone]

I dont think Ali could handle one of those left elbows that followed the hook. If Tyson grazed with that punch, here came that elbow. Viscous.

When me and my buddies sat down to watch Tyson, the debate we had was "For $1 million would you get in the ring with Tyson?"

[path12]

Something I don't think has been mentioned yet is how damn great Ali was in getting into his opponents heads. I think he would have had Tyson half beat before the fight even began.

Was pretty young for the Ali/Frazier fights but totally remember sitting by the radio waiting for round by round updates. Always rooted against Ali at the time (loved the underdog even as a kid) but boy, I've never seen better.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

the real debate should be: could mike tyson in his prime eat babies faster than shawn kemp in his prime could make babies

i mean damn am i the only one wondering this

Not anymore!

SI

[DougW]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Tyson in an era where there wasn't a lot of good competition in the heavyweight division? While Ali had a lot.

Could it be, there didn't 'seem' to be any competition because Tyson was so much better ? Maybe if Iron Mike wasn't around, there would have been 5 others who pounded each other in the spotlight and left many people thinking it was the greatest era in boxing.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Matthean

+1. I think partly what sets him apart was the speed of his power pushes. I know when Frazier died people were talking about his last fight with Ali and the reason Ali won was due to Frazier quitting first.

No, Ali would have won that fight - he was ahead on the scorecards and Frazier was virtually blind going into the 13th round. That's why Ali was able to tee off on Frazier in the 13th and 14th - Frazier could no longer see the punches coming from either side. If Frazier's corner hadn't stopped it, Smokin' Joe probably would have died in the 15th round.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Matthean

Biggest criticism of Holmes and Tyson.

And any modern heavyweight since the end of the Ali era. I think a lot of that comes from the generally held belief that every heavyweight since Ali couldn't hold a candle to him. He was the greatest, he said so. I concede here that Ali was great, but that we fondly remember him perhaps as being better than he was because was such a good self promoter. He fought a ton, be beat a lot of guys, and he had some good wars. A lot of times he didn't come into the ring in tip top shape, but his skill was good enough to dismantle his opponent.

The boxing world is different now then it was then, because we know so much more about how corrupt the promoters and sanctioning bodies are. We know that guys pad their records against cans in order to chase that one big fight. I think it predisposes us to think that modern fighters are weaker than their predecessors. That brings me to modern heavyweights.

Evander Holyfield's career was essentially destroyed when 46-year old George Foreman took every blow he had to give and one-twoed his way to a title. Foreman represented everything that the boxing hey-day was with Ali. Therefore, if he can beat the champ at that age, who was in his prime, then every other comparable fighter from that era (Ali) is better than every other one from the modern era.

Ali had great defense, was a fantastic defensive boxer, like Jack Johnson, and that all by itself won many fights. His movement would wear out most modern heavyweights and his jab was great at keeping distance. He wasn't an iron man though. His chin was good, but not invincible.

Tyson could hit like not other heavyweight before or since. But to say that the modern heavyweight era isn't as good as the Ali era is wrong in my opinion.

Take a guy like Samuel Peter, a top contender, who has fought and lost to the Klitschko brothers a total of 3 times. His career record currently stands at 34-5 with 27 KO's. With an impressive record like that how is he not considered a worthwhile fighter in the heavyweight division? Well, basically because he lost 3 major title fights. And we don't know any of the other guys so he must suck.

The fact of the matter is that we don't pay attention to boxing anymore. We only pay attention to maybe 5 fights a year out of all the fights that go on in the world. So competition with other sports, and corruption have robbed us of any fair comparison that we can make.

Personally, I would say that Peter would have been a monster in the 60's. Six foot 2 inches, and regularly weighing in between 235 and 260, he was a good 20-40 pounds heavier than Foreman in his prime. He clearly has power and would have torn through lesser opponents like Foreman did. Peter was no Mike Tyson though.

Tyson would have destroyed men from that era. I firmly believe that there hasn't been anyone like him in boxing before or since. His unique stature, movement and uppercut were brutal. Ali could have moved enough for him to wear out, but I think it would have only taken a few shots, and it would have been over. Tyson and the modern heavyweight are bigger, stronger and faster.

FWIW, I just ran a one-off simulation using TB2 for this fight. Tyson landed heavy blow after heavy blow all though the fight, but he was inconsistant round to round. While Ali was steady, stayed upright, and worked his jab, while landing a few solid punches all his own. So what was the result of my 15 round fight you ask?

143-143
143-142 Ali
143-142 Tyson

There you have it. Even the simulation doesn't know the answer.

PS, I'll add that the Klitschko's aren't ever going to get the love that they deserve because of this too. Two mammoth fighters with huge size, big hands, freak technical boxing ability, good conditioning, and solid power, but they get no love. Even though they have beaten everyone for the most part. I think a lot of it has to do with them not being American, and that they won't fight each other. How can you blame them? They could have taken Ali apart too. Similar technical skills but you can't deny that monster size advantage. Ali would be considered a very small heavyweight in today's world. Many of his fights he was below 200lbs, and at 225 against Wepner, he was out of shape and carrying a good 20lbs over what he should have been.

[RendeR]

Tyson was a brawler, Ali was a boxer. Ali wouldn't have let Tyson touch him much less hit him. While raining blows all over Tyson as he lunged back and forth.

Ali tears Tyson apart and sings a song and prances around advertising Lincoln Town cars while he does it.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Tyson was a brawler, Ali was a boxer. Ali wouldn't have let Tyson touch him much less hit him. While raining blows all over Tyson as he lunged back and forth.

Ali tears Tyson apart and sings a song and prances around advertising Lincoln Town cars while he does it.

Tyson was a lot quicker than you're giving him credit for. In a relatively small ring Ali wouldn't be able to slip away from Tyson that easily.

PilotMan,

Fantastic analysis. Just a small correction - Holyfield easily won the Foreman fight and it was 19 months later before lost to Riddick Bowe. George was a bit of a freak of nature in that his 45 year old self wasn't much different than his 25 year old self. He didn't move worth a damn back then either, but he was probably the best puncher in the history of the heavyweight division. The older Foreman moved even less, but used his pole-axe jab better. And the old George didn't have that many ring miles on him since he was blasting opponents out right and left.

So many of us saw big George for what he was - still a very effective heavyweight. Holyfield's unanimous decision wasn't that big of a shock, especially since Evander was a blown up light heavy with less-than-average power. He outworked his opponents, not outpunched them.

And I agree about the Klitschkos. Fantastic fighters, though a bit stiff. Lennox Lewis was another guy who could have competed in any era.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

No, Ali would have won that fight - he was ahead on the scorecards and Frazier was virtually blind going into the 13th round. That's why Ali was able to tee off on Frazier in the 13th and 14th - Frazier could no longer see the punches coming from either side. If Frazier's corner hadn't stopped it, Smokin' Joe probably would have died in the 15th round.

My point is that Ali was beat up enough that he felt like quitting but didn't likely in vast part because Frazier was even worse off. During previous fights Ali comments about how beat up he was after fighting Frazier.

Originally Posted by RendeR

Tyson was a brawler, Ali was a boxer. Ali wouldn't have let Tyson touch him much less hit him. While raining blows all over Tyson as he lunged back and forth.

Ali tears Tyson apart and sings a song and prances around advertising Lincoln Town cars while he does it.

Tyson was a brawler just like Frazier was. If Frazier can hurt him and beat him, Tyson could have. I still think Tyson was faster than Frazier.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Matthean

Tyson was a brawler just like Frazier was. If Frazier can hurt him and beat him, Tyson could have. I still think Tyson was faster than Frazier.

Tyson was a lot faster than Frazier, put his punches together better and was harder to hit with a solid shot when he was with Rooney because he could use his lack of height to his advantage getting under punches.

Skill wise Tyson could definitely hang with Ali in their primes, but what gives Ali the advantage is his poise. He would have figured out a way to frustrate Tyson, then pick him apart when Tyson got desperate and began to wing wild, arcing shots.

Tyson would always have the punchers chance, but I think Ali wins this on his wits.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

One thing that always gets me is that Ali v. Foreman II never happened.

I think Ali wanted nothing to do with it, and sadly, neither did George.

It's too bad, because I think a second fight would have been much different. George stands in the middle of the ring and says "I ain't comin' near them ropes."

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

PilotMan,

Fantastic analysis. Just a small correction - Holyfield easily won the Foreman fight and it was 19 months later before lost to Riddick Bowe. George was a bit of a freak of nature in that his 45 year old self wasn't much different than his 25 year old self. He didn't move worth a damn back then either, but he was probably the best puncher in the history of the heavyweight division. The older Foreman moved even less, but used his pole-axe jab better. And the old George didn't have that many ring miles on him since he was blasting opponents out right and left.

So many of us saw big George for what he was - still a very effective heavyweight. Holyfield's unanimous decision wasn't that big of a shock, especially since Evander was a blown up light heavy with less-than-average power. He outworked his opponents, not outpunched them.

And I agree about the Klitschkos. Fantastic fighters, though a bit stiff. Lennox Lewis was another guy who could have competed in any era.

Yeah, I was just going from memory and didn't check what I was writing. But the intent is the same. Yeah, that jab was murder, and his arm was the size of some grown men's legs. Even with him just throwing it out there, it's still hard enough to rearrange your teeth.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I dont think Ali could handle one of those left elbows that followed the hook. If Tyson grazed with that punch, here came that elbow. Viscous.

When me and my buddies sat down to watch Tyson, the debate we had was "For $1 million would you get in the ring with Tyson?"

We used to do that too. I miss those days with my step dad, planning a whole evening just to finally get to sit down and see Mike Tyson fight.. even though it usually only lasted a round or two. I was in love with boxing during those years of Sugar Ray Leonard and then Mike Tyson.

[MIJB#19]

For a second I wondered whether the Thunderdome dynasty was back. I guess not...

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

For a second I wondered whether the Thunderdome dynasty was back. I guess not...

No shit, that was my first thought as well. Too bad. That was an epic dynasty.