Are you allowed to dine with the opposite sex?

[Easy Mac]

Just polling based on the recent news that Mike Pence is not allowed to eat a meal alone with a member of the opposite sex, seemingly in any situation.

This is mainly for married people, obviously. And opposite sex can mean same sex for those who are of the homosexual persuasion. For bisexual people, I'm not certain how to phrase a question. Are you allowed to eat?

If there are caveats, feel free to post them. Such as, maybe work meals are OK, but friendly meals aren't, only other married people...

Personally, I know I've eaten meals with bosses and/or co-workers who are married/unmarried and of the opposite sex, but I can't recall having a meal with a non-family woman by myself since I started dating my wife. It would actually make my life easier if I got around to it, since my wife travels a bit and I end up just playing alone with my daughter. If I had the courage ask for playdates for her with moms, my life would probably be easier.

[Logan]

Yes. With work and friends it would be cool.

Basically this comes down to "does my wife know her or know of her (work)?" If the answer is yes, it would be fine. If the answer is no, then I would have some explaining to do (I'm not in sales or anything, so I'm not having work dinners with people besides those on my team).

For your own scenario though, I can't imagine going to dinner with a random mother of a kid who goes to daycare with my daughter, if there's no connection before we had kids. Both in actually wanting to and in terms of potential shadiness.

[ISiddiqui]

Not being able to dine with someone from the opposite sex seems incredibly strange to me. I'm not married, but I'd imagine that it'd apply for those in serious relationship as well (as I doubt after the I do's are said, the dining with other women door closes).

Some of my good friends are women. And my Pastor is a woman! It'd be really strange and offputting if I was told I couldn't eat a meal with them without 'supervision'.

[CrescentMoonie]

Are you allowed to? Of course. Is it wise to do so? Not always. I feel like Pence's position goes too far, but I can see the argument for it if he believes that it could be a problem for him.

[panerd]

My wife and I were actually having this discussion the other night because of a situation with a friend of hers. Basically her friend's husband works odd hours and so is home a lot with their kids and goes on playdates with another mom. The weird part is the other mom has not told her husband she is doing playdates with a dad.

We thought that would be a little weird. Neither of us has any jealousy issues whatsoever and she has male friends she hangs out with and since I am a teacher some of my happy hours are me and 5 women. But dinner/meeting at a house or the park seems more intimate. I wouldn't worry about my wife but I guess I would worry the other guy would get the wrong idea. Maybe that is jealousy but I don't know?

[Ben E Lou]

Allowed? Sure. Do I? No.

Few affairs seem to start because someone wakes up and says "I think I'll go cheat on my spouse now!" In the conversations I've had with people who've had affairs, it's always *much* more of a slow, subtle process. Marriages are always up and down. Having an alone social engagement with someone of the opposite sex--even lunch with a co-worker--opens the door to a vulnerability. It can start with "innocent" joking around about silly pet peeve type things that annoy the respective persons about their spouses. From there, it can progress to bitching about a spouse to another person, etc. Before they realize it, an emotional connection has occurred and it's dangerous territory.

A sheep doesn't get lost by simply running off from the flock. He eats a tiny patch of grass a few feet away that looks appealing, then there's another patch that looks good that moves him in the same direction--away from the flock, then another and another. It never looks like a "BIG JUMP"...just a small shift. But when he finally looks up for the rest of the flock, he has no idea where they are, and no idea how he got where he is.

Every person I've talked to or heard speak who has had an affair had a story like that--a series of small, seemingly-"innocent" decisions led them into a place where they never would have pictured themselves.

And fwiw, I seriously doubt they really meant "allowed." I talk that way all the time about my wife but it's not literal. ("Jen doesn't allow me to fold the laundry because she thinks I'm terrible at it.")

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Allowed? Sure. Do I? No.

Few affairs seem to start because someone wakes up and says "I think I'll go cheat on my spouse now!" In the conversations I've had with people who've had affairs, it's always *much* more of a slow, subtle process. Marriages are always up and down. Having an alone social engagement with someone of the opposite sex--even lunch with a co-worker--opens the door to a vulnerability. It can start with "innocent" joking around about silly pet peeve type things that annoy the respective persons about their spouses. From there, it can progress to bitching about a spouse to another person, etc. Before they realize it, an emotional connection has occurred and it's dangerous territory.

A sheep doesn't get lost by simply running off from the flock. He eats a tiny patch of grass a few feet away that looks appealing, then there's another patch that looks good that moves him in the same direction--away from the flock, then another and another. It never looks like a "BIG JUMP"...just a small shift. But when he finally looks up for the rest of the flock, he has no idea where they are, and no idea how he got where he is.

Every person I've talked to or heard speak who has had an affair had a story like that--a series of small, seemingly-"innocent" decisions led them into a place where they never would have pictured themselves.

And fwiw, I seriously doubt they really meant "allowed." I talk that way all the time about my wife but it's not literal. ("Jen doesn't allow me to fold the laundry because she thinks I'm terrible at it.")

+1

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Allowed? Sure. Do I? No.

Few affairs seem to start because someone wakes up and says "I think I'll go cheat on my spouse now!" In the conversations I've had with people who've had affairs, it's always *much* more of a slow, subtle process. Marriages are always up and down. Having an alone social engagement with someone of the opposite sex--even lunch with a co-worker--opens the door to a vulnerability.

So the answer is just to avoid any social contact with members of the opposite sex? Can that same door not open when you are spending a few hours in conference room with your female co-worker?

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Allowed? Sure. Do I? No.

Few affairs seem to start because someone wakes up and says "I think I'll go cheat on my spouse now!" In the conversations I've had with people who've had affairs, it's always *much* more of a slow, subtle process. Marriages are always up and down. Having an alone social engagement with someone of the opposite sex--even lunch with a co-worker--opens the door to a vulnerability. It can start with "innocent" joking around about silly pet peeve type things that annoy the respective persons about their spouses. From there, it can progress to bitching about a spouse to another person, etc. Before they realize it, an emotional connection has occurred and it's dangerous territory.

A sheep doesn't get lost by simply running off from the flock. He eats a tiny patch of grass a few feet away that looks appealing, then there's another patch that looks good that moves him in the same direction--away from the flock, then another and another. It never looks like a "BIG JUMP"...just a small shift. But when he finally looks up for the rest of the flock, he has no idea where they are, and no idea how he got where he is.

Every person I've talked to or heard speak who has had an affair had a story like that--a series of small, seemingly-"innocent" decisions led them into a place where they never would have pictured themselves.

And fwiw, I seriously doubt they really meant "allowed." I talk that way all the time about my wife but it's not literal. ("Jen doesn't allow me to fold the laundry because she thinks I'm terrible at it.")

Yup. I've had lunch at conferences with a coworker but that is the extent of it.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Logan

So the answer is just to avoid any social contact with members of the opposite sex?

I didn't suggest that. There's a significant difference between "any social contact" and "spending time alone with." Now to be fair, at my station in life right now, I have zero desire to strike up new friendships with women, and new guys are a low priority, too. We have two small children and both of us work full-time jobs, so *any* precious social adult-only time is going to be either with other couples or alone with one another.



"Can that same door not open when you are spending a few hours in conference room with your female co-worker?"<---Of course it can, and there are times with some jobs where that's necessary. But if I'm talking about the time I'm in control of, then there's no reason to incur the risk. And not to mention that for a public figure, (or, as I was, someone in ministry,) it's an easy way to avoid rumors, accusations, or the appearance of any improprieties.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola: there are few words that sound better in the English language than a Southern aristocrat saying "im-pruh-priii-uh-ties"

[Easy Mac]

Now that I think about it, I have had decent contact with some of the moms in our neighborhood. I've probably spent a few hours total alone in the park with them each while our daughters play. But we mainly just talk about our kids, so its essentially like a work lunch.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I didn't suggest that. There's a significant difference between "any social contact" and "spending time alone with." Now to be fair, at my station in life right now, I have zero desire to strike up new friendships with women, and new guys are a low priority, too. We have two small children and both of us work full-time jobs, so *any* precious social adult-only time is going to be either with other couples or alone with one another.
M
"Can that same door not open when you are spending a few hours in conference room with your female co-worker?"<---Of course it can, and there are times with some jobs where that's necessary. But if I'm talking about the time I'm in control of, then there's no reason to incur the risk. And not to mention that for a public figure, (or, as I was, someone in ministry,) it's an easy way to avoid rumors, accusations, or the appearance of any impropriety.

Obviously I would agree that if you are choosing already precious social time with a random woman from work over meeting your wife for lunch, that's a problem. But I don't get the sense that was the situation you were describing in your first response, from your experiences with people who have had affairs, where these open vulnerabilities can pop up.

[JPhillips]

In my experience this type of arrangement isn't uncommon with my evangelical friends. It's not something I would ever do, but it's weird to me that this is being portrayed as highly unusual. A lot of men stick to this.

I do think it causes some problems for women. As I read earlier, a women can't get to the top of any profession abiding by the same rules.

[bhlloy]

Think I'm with everyone else on this. Directly work related is fine but having dinner alone with a female friend just gives off an impression that I don't want to give. That and nobody wants to have dinner with me anyway, let alone a member of the fairer sex.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Logan

Yes. With work and friends it would be cool.

+1

[Abe Sargent]

In the 40s when he began his ministry, knowing the temptations to adultery and sin that some evangelists were undergoing, Billy Graham made a pledge to never meet with a woman by himself. He never did .

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I do think it causes some problems for women. As I read earlier, a women can't get to the top of any profession abiding by the same rules.

Yes, this would actually be a big issue when considering that a lot of deals/business gets done over lunch or dinner meetings. Sometimes getting a one-on-one with a person who is in position of power can be a massive career booster.

Originally Posted by bhlloy

having dinner alone with a female friend just gives off an impression that I don't want to give.

That you have friends who are women?

[QuikSand]

Mike Pence Asks Waiter To Remove Mrs. Butterworth From Table Until Wife Arrives https://t.co/gz14KYCvBh pic.twitter.com/9H1fZS4aYt

— The Onion (@TheOnion) March 30, 2017

[Logan]

I fully believe in trusting your gut, and in doing so I think I can pretty much accurately place all of my interactions, and potential interactions, with the opposite sex in one of three buckets:

- Meets my definition of appropriate
- Meets my definition of inappropriate
- Somewhere in the middle

When something falls in that third bucket, I just treat it like it's inappropriate and move along with my day.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Logan

Obviously I would agree that if you are choosing already precious social time with a random woman from work over meeting your wife for lunch, that's a problem. But I don't get the sense that was the situation you were describing in your first response, from your experiences with people who have had affairs, where these open vulnerabilities can pop up.

correct. That one sentence in the second post was meant to throw sort of a bone and acknowledge that this is an easy route for me to follow right now anyway. Didn't want to sound like I was being all high and mighty. I live in a relatively new city and work from home for an out of state company. It would be totally weird to schedule lunch or dinner with any female here. What would even be the purpose? When I have lunch with one of the guys from church, it's "hey I'm new. I'd like to get to know some of the men in the church better." I can't imagine saying that to a female who isn't my wife.

But to be clear, if we lived in my home town, where I have dozens of female friends from years back, some of whom were close, I wouldn't have lunch or dinner alone with one of them to catch up. I'd do it in a group setting. We live in my wife's home town and she has more old male than female friends here. When there's a desire to catch up with one of them, we get the families together and let the kids play in the yard while the four adults visit.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I seriously doubt they really meant "allowed." I talk that way all the time about my wife but it's not literal. ("Jen doesn't allow me to fold the laundry because she thinks I'm terrible at it.")

I think allowed is exactly what was meant. Among religious leaders in circles similar to the ones Pence apparently traveled in, this is on the short list of things they check themselves on; never being in a 'compromising situation' with a woman other than their wife, regardless of intent. Serious conversations can result if you do. It's the whole not exposing yourself to the temptation kind of thing.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Not being able to dine with someone from the opposite sex seems incredibly strange to me. I'm not married, but I'd imagine that it'd apply for those in serious relationship as well (as I doubt after the I do's are said, the dining with other women door closes).

Some of my good friends are women. And my Pastor is a woman! It'd be really strange and offputting if I was told I couldn't eat a meal with them without 'supervision'.

I suppose once you get married, I'm assuming not in a bar, you might have a different feeling to it

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

correct. That one sentence in the second post was meant to throw sort of a bone and acknowledge that this is an easy route for me to follow right now anyway. Didn't want to sound like I was being all high and mighty. I live in a relatively new city and work from home for an out of state company. It would be totally weird to schedule lunch or dinner with any female here. What would even be the purpose? When I have lunch with one of the guys from church, it's "hey I'm new. I'd like to get to know some of the men in the church better." I can't imagine saying that to a female who isn't my wife.

But to be clear, if we lived in my home town, where I have dozens of female friends from years back, some of whom were close, I wouldn't have lunch or dinner alone with one of them to catch up. I'd do it in a group setting. We live in my wife's home town and she has more old male than female friends here. When there's a desire to catch up with one of them, we get the families together and let the kids play in the yard while the four adults visit.

I definitely get that perspective. But let me ask you...let's say one of your close female friends from back home was in town on a work trip and you bumped into her at a store. It's been years since you've seen her, and you don't know the next time you'll see each other again. She asks you to go to dinner that night, it's her only night in town. Your wife has a work commitment. Would you just pass? And let's remove the ministry component to this too if you can.

I'm thinking of my own situation where a good friend from college moved to LA with her husband a few years ago. My wife got to know her very well and the four of us have spent plenty of time together over the years. If that same situation outlined above occurred, I can't imagine ever saying no, so this legitimately intrigues me.

[JPhillips]

I get the whole temptation thing, but it also isn't that hard not to fuck or try to fuck someone. Since I've been married I've been out with women, slept at the home of women, been in rehearsals with women, been in my underwear at a costume fitting or vice versa with women, etc. and I haven't fucked or tried to fuck anyone.

My only real problem with the idea is that it takes the responsibility away from the individual. The fault is either an inherent weakness or a conniving woman. Just don't do it, it really isn't that hard.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I suppose once you get married, I'm assuming not in a bar, you might have a different feeling to it

Is there some strange switch that changes the dining expectations when you go from long term relationship to legally married?

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Is there some strange switch that changes the dining expectations when you go from long term relationship to legally married?

Ahh, sweet summer child who thinks women stay exactly the same after marriage.

To be fair, mine is pretty go with the flow about everything

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Ahh, sweet summer child who thinks women stay exactly the same after marriage.

To be fair, mine is pretty go with the flow about everything

Considering that one of those long time female friends I've had meals with alone is a married woman, I don't think it's close to universal that after marriage there is a sort of 'lock down' on dining rules.

To be fair, any person who suggested I can't have a dinner alone with two of my oldest friends wouldn't be a person I'd be interested in listening to, let alone marrying (or staying married to).

[MrBug708]

Again, easier to say than do. My wife would never say not to but I wouldn't feel comfortable doing so with any regular activity. No reason for my wife to not come. If she can't, I would just plan for another day.

[ISiddiqui]

I have done it plenty of times when my partner is not available. Has never been an issue (not like I hide it from her). So I don't see why you think that after an "I do", it'll be different. It may be uncomfortable for you, but it's not even a small deal for me. Or for a lot of the people I tend to hang out with.

[HomerSimpson98]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Ahh, sweet summer child who thinks women stay exactly the same after marriage.

To be fair, mine is pretty go with the flow about everything

hahaha. Its funny because its true

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I have done it plenty of times when my partner is not available. Has never been an issue (not like I hide it from her). So I don't see why you think that after an "I do", it'll be different. It may be uncomfortable for you, but it's not even a small deal for me. Or for a lot of the people I tend to hang out with.

1 year of a committed relationship is not marriage, sorry.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

1 year of a committed relationship is not marriage, sorry.

And yet, I have friends married for years who have no issues dinning with friends from the opposite sex. It's like you think there is no one who is married who is having dinner alone with the opposite sex.

[CrescentMoonie]

A lot of people think that marriage is no different than living together, and you should do the second part before getting married so you'll know if it's going to work. The divorce rate for people who live together first is 33% higher than for those who don't. Marriage is always different. Always.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Logan

I definitely get that perspective. But let me ask you...let's say one of your close female friends from back home was in town on a work trip and you bumped into her at a store. It's been years since you've seen her, and you don't know the next time you'll see each other again. She asks you to go to dinner that night, it's her only night in town. Your wife has a work commitment. Would you just pass? And let's remove the ministry component to this too if you can.

I think there is a "southern/evangelical subculture" component to this as well. I am picturing my absolute closest 2 or 3 female friends from home, and I literally cannot imagine that scenario ever happening. I suspect they'd all say, "Aw man, your wife is out of town? Oh well." For what it's worth, that's not mere conjecture. A similar situation happened when we lived in the Atlanta area: one of those closest two or three female friends from home was coming through town with one of her children not long after I had gotten married, and wanted to see our new home and "catch up with you and get to know Jen." (She lives in Birmingham, so our wedding was only the second time she had met Jen.) I told her Jen was going to be out of town and she immediately said something along the lines of "Bummer. Well I will have {her daughter's name} with me, so at least we can meet somewhere for coffee." I never said "you can't come over because my wife is out of town," but it was simply understood that it wasn't an option, but having the child with her made it ok to meet for coffee.

But anyway, removing that from the equation, I do have a female friend who moved from up north when we were in college, and as such wasn't as familiar with these proper social graces. It happened by circumstance (for 2+ years we were literally the only two college kids in our church's "college and career" singles group and we led Young Life together at the same high school,) that I was there for her during some extremely tough times around her move southward, so it's probably fair to say that I mean more to her than she does to me. (In other words, I wouldn't characterize her as one of my oldest/dearest female friends, but she would probably put me in that category.) I *could* see her making that request. That would be a tough one, but the sheer fact that when thinking about this scenario, my immediate thought is that I would want to go to a restaurant in another part of town where it's less likely to run into someone I know is indicative of my level of discomfort with the idea. And to be clear, it's not that I would care that someone was questioning my motives, but that I wouldn't want someone seeing me out with a strange woman and worrying for my wife and kids. I wouldn't want to put her through that gossip if it's so easily avoidable. (Context: we live in a heavily-suburban bedroom community part of Greensboro. There is only one decent restaurant within 5 miles of my home, so if I met her there, odds are 50/50 or better of someone I know seeing me having dinner with a strange woman.)

All that said, my wife would cancel all but the most pressing work thing if this particular person were in town. She'd love to get to know her. That's the only time period of my life where she has no connection with someone, and there's no question that between church, YL, and school, I spent more time with "T" than anyone else during those years. (T moved back to NY not long after college, so the only time she and Jen met was at our wedding.)

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

The divorce rate for people who live together first is 33% higher than for those who don't.

There is a good reason for that that doesn't involve 'living together is a mistake' type of narrative. It's because people who live together before marriage are usually the type that aren't as divorce averse as the religious folk who will never think about living together before marriage.

[molson]

I dated an older woman and was very frustrated by her ideas about relationship boundaries. I took it as a lack of trust. Nothing was "forbidden", but, she was very old-fashioned and me having dinner alone with another women just wasn't something that was going to go well for me. Through my 20s, most of my close friends were female and I just wasn't really willing to shut down or heavily compromise those friendships.

Years later, I've been with my girlfriend for about 3 1/2 years, living together for almost a year, and I've been surprised how much we just kind of live within those boundaries I used to despise. There's no "rules", but, I wouldn't eat dinner alone with another women anymore, or have any other "date-like" activity like a movie alone together, subject to some exceptions or special circumstances, I guess. (If a friend was visiting from out of town and could do dinner or drinks some night, I'd invite my girlfriend but I'd still go if she couldn't make it or didn't want to go). It just doesn't feel right anymore, I'm not sure why. I'll have lunch breaks from work alone with female friends occasionally, but most of my socializing is group-related now, and my girlfriend is usually there too. If I could just as easily schedule a weekday lunch, invite the girlfriend, or invite other people, why not do it? This is probably the type of relationship/social structure my older girlfriend was going for and would have been comfortable with - of course now that I'm closer to the age she was then, I kind of get it.

It probably helps that those female friends from my 20s are mostly married with kids. Regardless of rules, I just really don't want to hang out with any of them alone any more. Shit, 1-on-1 hanging out takes more social energy, and my social energy is more valuable and harder to come by these days. Still, I can't fathom coming home and saying, "hey, I'm having dinner tomorrow with Jen, I'll be home a little later." I'd PREFER either my girlfriend go, or we go with a bunch of people.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And yet, I have friends married for years who have no issues dinning with friends from the opposite sex. It's like you think there is no one who is married who is having dinner alone with the opposite sex.

My wife wouldn't care, I just choose to accommodate around her schedule so we all have a good time.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

My wife wouldn't care, I just choose to accommodate around her schedule so we all have a good time.

But yet, you seem to be doing this both sides of your mouth thing - where you imply that after marriage dining alone with a female friend is taboo, but then you say, but my wife wouldn't care. It's incredibly weird.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

But yet, you seem to be doing this both sides of your mouth thing - where you imply that after marriage dining alone with a female friend is taboo, but then you say, but my wife wouldn't care. It's incredibly weird.

It seems pretty clear that he's saying that even though his wife probably wouldn't have a problem with it, he wouldn't be comfortable doing it. How is that talking out of both sides of his mouth?

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

There is a good reason for that that doesn't involve 'living together is a mistake' type of narrative. It's because people who live together before marriage are usually the type that aren't as divorce averse as the religious folk who will never think about living together before marriage.

The ones I know are all "religious folk" and it's nearly unanimous that the partner who asked for the divorce felt like getting married would be the thing that finally got the other partner to be fully committed.

I'll amend my earlier statement to say that the perception of marriage is always different.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

It seems pretty clear that he's saying that even though his wife probably wouldn't have a problem with it, he wouldn't be comfortable doing it. How is that talking out of both sides of his mouth?

Did you miss the whole 'once you get married, you'll think differently' and the 'women change after marriage' stuff in post #23 and #27? #27 in particular seems to imply that women change after marriage to make dining alone with another woman not appropriate.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

But yet, you seem to be doing this both sides of your mouth thing - where you imply that after marriage dining alone with a female friend is taboo, but then you say, but my wife wouldn't care. It's incredibly weird.

Says the guy who thinks saying I do is the only difference between being married and being in a short long term relationship...

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

The ones I know are all "religious folk" and it's nearly unanimous that the partner who asked for the divorce felt like getting married would be the thing that finally got the other partner to be fully committed.

I'll amend my earlier statement to say that the perception of marriage is always different.

Im pretty sure he has some pretty rigid rules about raising kids too

[ISiddiqui]

I had forgotten you were the authority on all marriage because you have been in one. There is a reason that Pence's comments are trending, as opposed to being ho-hum (there is a reason it's even news). Because all sorts of people, including married folks, are going 'What the fuck?'.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Radii]

Right... number of posts that it takes for a thread that is basically "describe your own personal experiences based on your own personal relationships" to start taking a turn towards "your own personal experiences are wrong": 18.

Impressive, but I think we could have gotten there sooner if we'd really tried.

[Izulde]

I've had dinner alone with married/committed female friends frequently - even shared rooms with them without their husbands/boyfriends around. It comes down to trust and comfort. That said, I do get the sense there's a strong regional component here.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I've had dinner alone with married/committed female friends frequently - even shared rooms with them without their husbands/boyfriends around. It comes down to trust and comfort. That said, I do get the sense there's a strong regional component here.

Was this after you talked about your Victoria Secret's story?

But your instance (and Isquiddi's) is the guy isn't married, which is what the whole story is trending about. Until you are married, it's just not the same. It's like having kids, you can be an uncle, aunt, sibling, but until they are your own and you are raising them, you just don't have the same picture.

[ISiddiqui]

But he is talking about hanging out with married women. So why is their experience different? Are you asserting that a married man hanging out with a woman should be more suspect than a married woman hanging out with a guy?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Radii

Right... number of posts that it takes for a thread that is basically "describe your own personal experiences based on your own personal relationships" to start taking a turn towards "your own personal experiences are wrong": 18.

Impressive, but I think we could have gotten there sooner if we'd really tried.

Ben's post was so long I didn't want to quote it and bog down the thread so I'll just use your post to say I appreciate him expanding on his perspective.