UFC 4: Adding another range.

[ZombieRommel]

Quote: Originally Posted by MartialMind

When it comes to striking, EA Sports UFC 3 is king, but since this game dropped, my biggest issue with the system has been how "Range" was handled. What you described here is a big part of it. I'd like to go a bit further than that. It is true that right now, we have stationary strikes and moving strikes in the game, but the game doesn't actually enforce this at all times. Sometimes when a player inputs a stationary strike, the game runs some weird complication calculation, concludes that the strike should land at all costs and turns the "Stationary strike" into an advancing strike. This makes range finding a very difficult task in this game. You could think you're safely out of distance when a stationary strike is thrown, but somehow still magically get hit because the strike slides in and makes contact. I'd like to see this taken away from the game completely. The player should have complete control of the distance his strike covers AT ALL TIMES. If i input a stationary strike, i'd like it to be thrown stationary at all times. Rather than make decisions for us, give us more options and let the player skillfully chose the right strike for the right distance. Let me try and explain further. Three ways we see fighters throw shots. - Stationary Strikes (Fastest way to throw but covers the least distance) - Stepping Strikes (Second fastest, covers slightly more distance) - Lunging Strikes (Slowest, covers the most distance) Allow me to use the Lead Hook to demonstrate the differences. Stationary Lead Hook: The strike is thrown with the lead leg planted from the exact same position it started. Stepping Lead Hook: The strike is thrown with a single small step forward. Lunging Lead Hook: The strike is thrown with a leap forward to cover the maximum amount of distance possible without first walking into the pocket. This was the Roy Jones special. These are the 3 ways i'd like to see strikes thrown in UFC4 and it should be COMPLETELY up to the player. It should be up to us to make those small adjustments in distance, not the game. If i throw a stationary strike and realize i'm JUST slightly out of range, don't extend it for me... allow me to make that adjustment. Next time, i'll throw a STEPPING strike to cover that small distance... and if i miscalculate and throw a LUNGING strike when all i should've gone with was a STEPPING strike, don't save me, don't correct it for me, let me throw a Lunging strike and get punished for it. I'd like the controls to be similar to how UD3 handled it too. Stationary Strikes = Thrown stationary Stepping Strikes = Forward on the left stick plus strike Lunging Strikes = FLICK Forward on the left stick to initiate the lunge, plus strike. Imagine a sequence like this one completely in your control You throw a stepping left hook and land, you think he is still in range so you throw a stationary left hook but you whiff, so you correct and throw a stepping straight, then a stationary left hook to drop him. ALL in your control. Striking would be elevated, range would actually mean something, and this would also indirectly buff defense. That's it for now

Great post, agreed with everything. We need this, on top of a punch range distinction between jabs/straights and hooks. Hope the devs see this.

[AydinDubstep]

What if, to add another idea into the mix, you make it so the hooks can have their own ranges respectively so a tight close hook, a medium standard hook and a long reaching hook.

In boxing,

A tight close hook is thrown when you're basically face to face with your opponent. The arm is bent. The aim is damage but the strike is almost smothered as you're so close.

A medium hook is the kind you'll throw once you've gotten past jab range. The arm is bent. The aim is damage and the range is perfect.

A long reaching hook is more of a distraction right on the edge of hooking range, from a position where you'd likely jab too. More of a distraction tool to setup perhaps a kick or a straight. Might even just touch the gloves or graze the opponent but perfect for a setup or mixup.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Quote: Originally Posted by AydinDubstep

What if, to add another idea into the mix, you make it so the hooks can have their own ranges respectively so a tight close hook, a medium standard hook and a long reaching hook. In boxing, A tight close hook is thrown when you're basically face to face with your opponent. The arm is bent. The aim is damage but the strike is almost smothered as you're so close. A medium hook is the kind you'll throw once you've gotten past jab range. The arm is bent. The aim is damage and the range is perfect. A long reaching hook is more of a distraction right on the edge of hooking range, from a position where you'd likely jab too. More of a distraction tool to setup perhaps a kick or a straight. Might even just touch the gloves or graze the opponent but perfect for a setup or mixup.

How would that be controlled by the user though? Would it be automated and depend completely on your distance or would it be manual with a new input.

[Phillyboi207]

Just wanted to add to this thread
More than hook range is missing. Here’s a detailed post I made about ranges awhile ago

Quote: Originally Posted by Phillyboi207

Proper range management Ranges and distances I think a big reason the magnetic striking is an issue is because ranges arent very accurate when it comes to a lot of strikes. The game will say a forward moving uppercut should be in kick range and the result will look wonky because they have to slide to make up for the lack of range on the striking animation. Per GPD from the deep dive article: “There are five ranges to be aware of in the game: Elbow Range Punch Range Kicking Range Step Kicking Range Out of Range” What I’m proposing is extending upon this and adding more ranges. Including the optimal ranges for grappling. Elbow range -> Stationary elbows/knees/uppercuts, very fast over/under clinch attempt, can also interrupt strikes going for over under Hook range -> Forward moving elbows/uppercuts/knees, stationary hooks, very fast single collar clinch attempt Straight punch range -> Stationary jabs/straights/overhands, forward moving hooks, oblique kick, optimal double leg/ single range Round kick range -> stationary Leg kicks/roundhouses, forward moving straights /overhands, spinning kicks, stationary side kicks(to the leg), forward moving oblique, decent double leg range Straight kick range -> Side kicks, push kicks, forward moving leg kicks/ roundhouses, forward moving side kicks to the leg, ankle pick range, desperation double leg range Stepping straight kick -> forward moving side kicks/push kicks, desperation ankle pick range, maximum imanari roll range Out of range Why is this important? Proper range management is arguably the most important skill in combat fighting. This way a forward moving uppercut doesnt involve the fighter sliding forward to land from kick range. This is also fixes the issue of everyone throwing the same combo. It places more thought on each strike. In addition minor lunge would hop you between the smaller ranges, push would knock you back one range,stationary back sway takes you back one range,retreating back sway takes you back two ranges, Major lunges would take you back two ranges. Im hoping this is something both the competitive and the sim crowd want. In traditional fighting games range mastery is vital. TLDR; Add more ranges to help give strikes their purpose and allow more moves to shine. If i’m incorrect on any ranges please offer feedback. I have a boxing background and I’m more than willing to learn.

[ZHunter1990]

I've talked a bit with the GCers months ago about more punch ranges. I suggested a Jab/Straight range instead of a hook range.

The reality though, is that either way the current punch range will have to change and they will have to add another one.

[AydinDubstep]

Quote: Originally Posted by Lauriedr1ver

How would that be controlled by the user though? Would it be automated and depend completely on your distance or would it be manual with a new input.

Ah man, hadn't thought about that and haven't managed to come up with a solution tbh!

One thing popped into mind that we discussed a while back which I'd like to bring up again, as it makes sense when talking about range.

360 head movement, more importantly, being able to hold a sustained position which isn't 100% committed in 1 direction.

Afaik, we either lean completely or not at all. The only way to access those sort of inbetween full leans is the minor lean which is the quick flicking of the stick.

What we actually need is a way to sustain minor leans, but forget the minor leans, go one further and make it so you can sustain between full and none, allowing us to expertly control that nuanced part of distance, especially for boxing, like we can in FNC, by letting us hold a position.

Say we get the things we want with more accurate footwork and the punch ranges, we still can't do a proper pull counter. I mean, we can, but it's not the way that dudes actually use it, which is to lean forward slightly, giving the illusion you are closer, then pulling way back and firing off a counter punch.

Floyd and Conor for example.

But I'm not a huge fan of the pull counter anyway, I am a fan of giving different looks though and being able to control how far we lean is a great way to give a different look and fake out an opponent, especially if we can sustain a lean without being fully 100% sustained, as this gives us a way to interrupt and change rhythm.

Examples of sustained leans irl:
- Lean forward, pull back, cross counter Mayweather style
- Lean to the back leg, setup range using feet, throw a big overhand Dan Hendo style or T Wood style

Oh, and another thing they could add is being able to move our feet intelligently while leaning, provided we are in a suitable position like the forward lean or the back leg Hendo lean. For the forward lean it would be small steps and slower movement, as that position doesn't enable fast forward movement or shuffles, but for a Hendo back lean, we could literally shuffle our feet as if we were throwing a shotput or javelin.

More examples of sustained leans:
- Slip right, slip left, hold left position, come back to center, slip left again.

^^ That sequence there is an example of using interrupted head movement to confuse an opponent. Combine that with articulate forward foot work and or ring cutting and you have a total new depth to pressure fighting.

Every decent head movement pressure fighter has to use sustains at times too, it's not only counter fighters so I think it's something definitely worth adding and looking into for the range discussion.

[1212headkick]

Quote: Originally Posted by AydinDubstep

Ah man, hadn't thought about that and haven't managed to come up with a solution tbh! One thing popped into mind that we discussed a while back which I'd like to bring up again, as it makes sense when talking about range. 360 head movement, more importantly, being able to hold a sustained position which isn't 100% committed in 1 direction. Afaik, we either lean completely or not at all. The only way to access those sort of inbetween full leans is the minor lean which is the quick flicking of the stick. What we actually need is a way to sustain minor leans, but forget the minor leans, go one further and make it so you can sustain between full and none, allowing us to expertly control that nuanced part of distance, especially for boxing, like we can in FNC, by letting us hold a position. Say we get the things we want with more accurate footwork and the punch ranges, we still can't do a proper pull counter. I mean, we can, but it's not the way that dudes actually use it, which is to lean forward slightly, giving the illusion you are closer, then pulling way back and firing off a counter punch. Floyd and Conor for example. But I'm not a huge fan of the pull counter anyway, I am a fan of giving different looks though and being able to control how far we lean is a great way to give a different look and fake out an opponent, especially if we can sustain a lean without being fully 100% sustained, as this gives us a way to interrupt and change rhythm. Examples of sustained leans irl: - Lean forward, pull back, cross counter Mayweather style - Lean to the back leg, setup range using feet, throw a big overhand Dan Hendo style or T Wood style Oh, and another thing they could add is being able to move our feet intelligently while leaning, provided we are in a suitable position like the forward lean or the back leg Hendo lean. For the forward lean it would be small steps and slower movement, as that position doesn't enable fast forward movement or shuffles, but for a Hendo back lean, we could literally shuffle our feet as if we were throwing a shotput or javelin. More examples of sustained leans: - Slip right, slip left, hold left position, come back to center, slip left again. ^^ That sequence there is an example of using interrupted head movement to confuse an opponent. Combine that with articulate forward foot work and or ring cutting and you have a total new depth to pressure fighting. Every decent head movement pressure fighter has to use sustains at times too, it's not only counter fighters so I think it's something definitely worth adding and looking into for the range discussion.

100% Floyd is known for leaning over his front foot and pulling back at the last second. He regularly pull counters straights