Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

[ZHunter1990]

Preface: This post is something Ive decided to make myself and have had zero discussion with the devs on blocking logic in relation to the future of the series. The plan is to forward feedback of potential block ideas that pop up here as a result of discussion.

That said, the block logic/strength is an interesting topic to me because it shapes the meta in relation to offense/defense, rocked states, and the overall balance of strike output.

Example 1: Block remains the same, stamina tax on all strikes is elevated.

Potential results:
Result 1 - Head and body mix ups become more relevant to the meta. Where body strikes are thrown at a very disproportionate rate when compared to actual fights, due to block breaking not being worth the tax.

Result 2 - Offense is stifled, making it relatively easy to survive an onslaught and gas your opponent by simply holding the block button, and ocassionally swaying or dashing away.

Example 2: Block keeps the same logic but is made weaker(chips away with less strikes), stamina goes unchanged.

Result 1: Blocking is no longer the most viable form of defense. Forcing the defender to take more risks or get overwhelmed. This would lower strike output but buff aggression.


Proposals

- Increase stamina tax on all landed strikes by 30%(Clean and on block)

- Weaken block by one strike except when moving directly backwards (1-2-3, the lead hook would hit clean)

- Allow blocking while swaying(Increased stamina tax on head movement while blocking, if you sway into a strike, you eat the full damage of that strike, minus the vulnerability)

- Block reset after successful lunge, slip or sway.(Martials Idea)

- Higher permanant block damage on bigger strikes such as headkicks, flying knee's, overhands..etc(Laurieds idea)

- Allow slipping and circling to the OUTSIDE of a strike to follow the same logic that lunging away from a forward moving combo. Meaning that you could circle a stationary combo by slipping to the outside and moving in that direction.

- Get rid of constant stamina tax on retreating block and instead add a flat tax like a lunge, add vulnerability to the body and legs during the retreating block.

- Slightly buff the damage(Not block damage) on the first two strikes in a forward moving combo.

Agree, disagree? What are your suggestions?

Discuss.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

There’s no reason not to employ every single one of these changes except ones that deal with increased stamina tax on blocked strikes.

I’ve already made multiple statements concerning why altering the block in such a simple way would wreak havoc on the meta at the mid to low level.


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[RetractedMonkey]

Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

Dramatically increasing the stamina tax on long combos (>2 strikes) would be my suggestion in addition to these. I’m talking about a 30% increase to 3 hit combos on the last hit and 50% on four and above (obviously the numbers could be tweaked but you get the idea).

It wouldn’t affect temporary stamina in the same way, only permanent. And 1 to 2 hit combos would receive even less of a stamina penalty than they do now. Making well timed two hit combos the new meta.

It would still destroy the low tier meta, but I’m not really interested in that. The reason why this is different than an increase in blocked strike tax is because you don’t have control over what strikes get blocked but you do control your output.

With the increased damage on third+ strikes to the block it also creates a risk reward meta to block breaking. You can hit the third strike for ostensibly a clean hit through the guard, but you still suffer the stamina tax. And if you miss, you’ve taken a hit from your permanent stamina pool.

This is the only effective way to increase fight longevity at higher metas and decrease strike output, in my opinion.

Edit: This also does away with the pattern block breaking we have now. Instead of having to change up the pattern to do damage, the block will change its pattern to account for spamming the same strikes over and over.

Ergo, you can hit a 1212 and get the last two hits in clean, but if you immediately follow with another 1212, the guy blocks almost all damage because his guard has adapted. But now it doesn’t leave them open for side on strikes. It was a good idea in theory, but the current system makes certain combos the end all be all.

The block will also reset after each hard combo in this system, but will retain “memory” for a certain period.

Obviously there are some things to be ironed out but these are my basic ideas.

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[ZHunter1990]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

There’s no reason not to employ every single one of these changes except ones that deal with increased stamina tax on blocked strikes.

I’ve already made multiple statements concerning why altering the block in such a simple way would wreak havoc on the meta at the mid to low level.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

Did you purposefully use a double negative? That threw me for a loop for a second. ��

You dont think making the block weaker by 1 strike while increasing overall stamina tax on landed strikes would suffice?

Disregard, responded before seeing 2nd post.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

Dramatically increasing the stamina tax on long combos (>2 strikes) would be my suggestion in addition to these. I’m talking about a 30% increase to 3 hit combos on the last hit and 50% on four and above (obviously the numbers could be tweaked but you get the idea).

It wouldn’t affect temporary stamina in the same way, only permanent. And 1 to 2 hit combos would receive even less of a stamina penalty than they do now. Making well timed two hit combos the new meta.

It would still destroy the low tier meta, but I’m not really interested in that. The reason why this is different than an increase in blocked strike tax is because you don’t have control over what strikes get blocked but you do control your output.

With the increased damage on third+ strikes to the block it also creates a risk reward meta to block breaking. You can hit the third strike for ostensibly a clean hit through the guard, but you still suffer the stamina tax. And if you miss, you’ve taken a hit from your permanent stamina pool.

This is the only effective way to increase fight longevity at higher metas and decrease strike output, in my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

So weaken the block, but substantially raise the perma stam tax per each strike in a combo?

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

So weaken the block, but substantially raise the perma stam tax per each strike in a combo?

Yes. The point is to allow the attacker to control the rate of stamina loss. Automatically increasing the stamina tax for blocked hits removes agency from the attacker and is unrealistic as well. I feel like this is a better way to give the attacker options to pick their shots.


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[ZHunter1990]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

Yes. The point is to allow the attacker to control the rate of stamina loss. Automatically increasing the stamina tax for blocked hits removes agency from the attacker and is unrealistic as well. I feel like this is a better way to give the attacker options to pick their shots.


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I like it. Would allow you to try and steamroll your opponent at the risk of gassing out if their defensive abilities turn out to be up to par.

But, what's to stop people from throwing staccato 2 punch combos to bypass this?

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

I like it. Would allow you to try and steamroll your opponent at the risk of gassing out if their defensive abilities turn out to be up to par.



But, what's to stop people from throwing staccato 2 punch combos to bypass this?

I edited my second post after you had replied. I suggested the block should be reset after each hard combo. Or at least regain a significant portion of its strength.

This makes it so the attacker only puts in longer combos when the defender is hurt or when he’s sure the strikes will land (or elects to take the stamina hit).

Also, you could expand on guard “memory” to bolster its strength when being hit by two consecutive hits repeatedly. In real life like you would by learning their striking pattern, allowing you to brace for impact on those two shots.

Just throwing out some suggestions.


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[1212headkick]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

Preface: This post is something Ive decided to make myself and have had zero discussion with the devs on blocking logic in relation to the future of the series. The plan is to forward feedback of potential block ideas that pop up here as a result of discussion.

That said, the block logic/strength is an interesting topic to me because it shapes the meta in relation to offense/defense, rocked states, and the overall balance of strike output.

Example 1: Block remains the same, stamina tax on all strikes is elevated.

Potential results:
Result 1 - Head and body mix ups become more relevant to the meta. Where body strikes are thrown at a very disproportionate rate when compared to actual fights, due to block breaking not being worth the tax.

Result 2 - Offense is stifled, making it relatively easy to survive an onslaught and gas your opponent by simply holding the block button, and ocassionally swaying or dashing away.

Example 2: Block keeps the same logic but is made weaker(chips away with less strikes), stamina goes unchanged.

Result 1: Blocking is no longer the most viable form of defense. Forcing the defender to take more risks or get overwhelmed. This would lower strike output but buff aggression.


Proposals

- Increase stamina tax on all landed strikes by 30%(Clean and on block)

- Weaken block by one strike except when moving directly backwards (1-2-3, the lead hook would hit clean)

- Allow blocking while swaying(Increased stamina tax on head movement while blocking, if you sway into a strike, you eat the full damage of that strike, minus the vulnerability)

- Block reset after successful lunge, slip or sway.(Martials Idea)

- Higher permanant block damage on bigger strikes such as headkicks, flying knee's, overhands..etc(Laurieds idea)

- Allow slipping and circling to the OUTSIDE of a strike to follow the same logic that lunging away from a forward moving combo. Meaning that you could circle a stationary combo by slipping to the outside and moving in that direction.

- Get rid of constant stamina tax on retreating block and instead add a flat tax like a lunge, add vulnerability to the body and legs during the retreating block.

- Slightly buff the damage(Not block damage) on the first two strikes in a forward moving combo.

Agree, disagree? What are your suggestions?

Discuss.

Increase the damage on body shots. One well timed liver shot should cause a flash ko. People turtle behind the block because body shots arent enough of a threat. Greatly reduce fwd moving frame tax on body shots. A fwd moving body hook has a 30 frame tax. Enough to be hit with a rolling thunder. You have to enforce the idea that one cannot just headhunt and to be able to go to the head you have to work the body more. Blocking imo isnt the problem. Its the lack of utility of body strikes not discouraging people to drop their guard. Giving more utility to body shots allows you to heard your opponent better. They cant just circle and hold high block if they have to worry about the body as well. And increase stamina tax to be more in line with whiffs but less dramatic. Or further increase whiff stamina tax. Slightly decrease speed of changing between high and low guard.

[l The Spider l]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

Great suggestions by ZHunter and Lemur, I don’t know the correct happy medium to keep it balanced between patience and aggression but you guys set a pretty good blueprint to tweak from in your posts. I agree that the block is the most important thing that needs looked at right now in striking I hope that this specific area receives a great amount of testing and tweaking.

One of my biggest grievances not directly with blocking but with head movement which is still in the discussion is that I don’t like the linear 4 way direction setup we have now, I much preferred Fight Night Champions 360 movement whilst being abLe to block. The ability to roll with strikes and mitigate damage on a correct roll or weave away from a punch is a mechanic I truly believe could make a fair difference.

Obviously not every fighter will have the same ability to do this effectively and it would have massive drawbacks concerning stamina, slipping towards strikes and against kicks but I’d love to see this experimented with and expanded upon.

[l The Spider l]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

I’d also like to see purpose for well timed blocks “catching punches” I’d like to see these open up very small and specific counter opportunities depending on which strike is blocked and what you should counter with maybe even a window to clinch. In the game now it seems if someone throws a 4 piece combo at you your only option is to wait until they are done to be able to perform an action in return and this creates this cat and mouse game we often see. So yeah more counter opportunities from block would be great like IRL someone over reaches with a long combo they usually find themselves being countered from a block or tied in a clinch, let us have the ability to time blocks instead of just holding the button to create these openings to grapple and counterstrike

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

I believe ZombieRommel first told me
about fighting for front vs side blocking instead of high vs low. I like it

Get rid of high low blocking. Add a weak block that you can hold to block everything. It can work exactly like the current block but with the additional bleed through and being weaker like Zhunter suggested. No extra stamina tax against the attacker tho.

Add Gaethje style front side blocking (holding RT for front, RT +LT for side). This form of blocking is just as strong as now, has less bleed through, and offers more stamina tax against the attacker.

But for it to work I think we need parries back for straight strikes(with the exact same properties as block counters, NO FREEZE). Have the input like timing RT + one of the face buttons to mirror the punch or kick. IE to parry a jab you have to time RT + X against Orhodox or RT + Y vs Southpaw. Have the window be determined by block rating vs accuracy.

I also think most strikes recovery period should be cancelable into head movement or lunges. Allow fighters to throw w/e strike they want and immediately move. (Unless it’s the first 2 strikes of a forward moving combo since they’re committing to coming forward). It would come at the cost of extra long term stamina and your strike would do less damage since you arent as committed to it. So someone who is sitting down on their strikes will win a trade if y’all striking at the same time.

Also would have to make feints safer (make them canceable into any action) and more realistic. This way higher levels will be about feinting to open up the strong block and land clean strikes.

My rational is that the lower level people can still hold block in order to weak block everything (high and low) but will see increased bleed through and their opponent wont really gas from it. While at higher levels you’d be more focused on defending straight vs rounded strikes. With additional defensive tools the meta would no longer be about breaking the block.

I aso like Retracted’s idea of additional long term tax for 3+ hit combos.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

I think another large part of why blocking works how it works is to do with accuracy of punches. Lowering the accuracy and lowering the overall block strength would be a good way to balance this. A few ideas on how to do this:

Lower the range of moving strikes

IRL most people do not throw strikes while moving an awful lot. Limiting the distance normal moving strikes cover could help people adjust to proper range while fighting and cause a lot more shots to miss by a fraction.

Change the command off lunging strikes

Changing the command from a flick, which is unreliable, to something else will make people consciously use these strikes more often creating a dynamic where peolple would choose to mix up stationary, moving and lunging strikes more often. Not a necessary change.

Decrease accuracy of moving strikes

Increase the chances of strike moving slighly off from the selected target and for it to land just off centre.

Add better hit detection for shots to hit shoulders, chests and gloves

Allow shots to hit these areas more often lowers the percantage of people getting hit in a realistic manner. Allowing more areas to be hit would encourage the offensive fighter to be more accurate.

Change small lunges command from stick flick to something more reliable

Increases the chances of these being used more, also make the animation slightly more pronounced to encourage use as well as to confirm their use.

Add a greater benefit to using stationary strikes

By making these strikes far more accurate and somewhat faster will encourage people to use them more, this decreases chance of peopme getting hit as they arent covering as much distance, but will be more used due to the reasons given.

Add a parry system

Give a new tool that can be used to defence against combos and block breaking, encourages mix ups and more creative combos. To balance this add a harsh vulnerability spike when you parry the incorrect strike or mis time it, making parrying skill based and adding more power to the offensive fighter. Requires greater discussion but a much needed addition.

Add arm health decrease
Arm health should decrease over time making blocking less viable. The more you use block the less blocking health you will have in the long run. This is a very realsitic change as fighters deliberately throw high kicks to damage fighters fore arms, which lowers power, speed and there ability to block over time.

Another way this could be implemented is if you are constantly getting swarmed and the only defence you are putting up is a high block. Over reliance on your block on multiple occasions in a small time frame should have a greater effect on your block strength and weaken it.

Add RT+RB lateral movement
Angling off is essential to not getting hit, currently we can only move back to not get hit, with the RT+RB movement. Different discussion but should be mentioned as it is another alternative to blocking.

Add more vulnerabilty for blocking wrong

Blocking wrong should create a vulnerbailty spike, or at least a greater one. This decreases people from blocking as they would more likely use the other defensive tools. By blocking wrong I am talking about high and low block.

Greatly reduce the stamina cost of using special movement

Actively encourage people to move more, this would be balanced by giving higher vulnerbailty as well as consistent use be given a long term stamina tax, would have to be worked on a × system rather than active decrease. Already mentioned.

Add far more power to well timed single strikes

To balance all of these defensive measures increasing single strike power so when someone gets caught, they really get caught.

Add more health events

Adding more health events which all affect your fighter in different ways. Would got against the current rock state which is a major issue and would make it easier to finish opponents.

Some may be slightly off topic but I feel like they still need a mention as they may affect this discussion.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

ZombieRommel's idea, which I've thought of too:

Make the fighter faster when moving around/strafing/going backwards without holding block: the higher the footwork stat, the faster you'll be able to move.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

I believe ZombieRommel first told me
about fighting for front vs side blocking instead of high vs low. I like it

Get rid of high low blocking. Add a weak block that you can hold to block everything. It can work exactly like the current block but with the additional bleed through and being weaker like Zhunter suggested. No extra stamina tax against the attacker tho.

Add Gaethje style front side blocking (holding RT for front, RT +LT for side). This form of blocking is just as strong as now, has less bleed through, and offers more stamina tax against the attacker.

But for it to work I think we need parries back for straight strikes(with the exact same properties as block counters, NO FREEZE). Have the input like timing RT + one of the face buttons to mirror the punch or kick. IE to parry a jab you have to time RT + X against Orhodox or RT + Y vs Southpaw. Have the window be determined by block rating vs accuracy.

I also think most strikes recovery period should be cancelable into head movement or lunges. Allow fighters to throw w/e strike they want and immediately move. (Unless it’s the first 2 strikes of a forward moving combo since they’re committing to coming forward). It would come at the cost of extra long term stamina and your strike would do less damage since you arent as committed to it. So someone who is sitting down on their strikes will win a trade if y’all striking at the same time.

Also would have to make feints safer (make them canceable into any action) and more realistic. This way higher levels will be about feinting to open up the strong block and land clean strikes.

My rational is that the lower level people can still hold block in order to weak block everything (high and low) but will see increased bleed through and their opponent wont really gas from it. While at higher levels you’d be more focused on defending straight vs rounded strikes. With additional defensive tools the meta would no longer be about breaking the block.

I aso like Retracted’s idea of additional long term tax for 3+ hit combos.

Lets assume that Front vs side block is out of the question. Considering we have already campaigned for this at one point and didnt get it