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  • Therebelyell626
    MVP
    • Mar 2018
    • 2887

    #1

    The trade logic is still horrible… here’s why based on my tests

    So, I’ve done alot of simming with franchise since I got the game. Trying multiple different scenarios, rosters, settings and at least 10 seasons with at least 12 teams. Just really wanted to dive in under the hood and get a grasp on how everything works. One of the big selling points of this years game was the improved roster logic by the CPU. While yes there are some improvements like more balanced overalls and potentials for players, there still a lot that needs work. So through my various testing, the opening day live roster finally highlighted what to me is the biggest problem with trade logic in the game.

    The biggest problem is positional balance, and the CPU prioritizing that above all else including potential and overall which should not be the case. The first few live rosters offered more positional balance, but the opening day live update adjusted players to the position they are currently listed at in real life. So what you now have is some teams being loaded at certain positions, and super thin at others. I will use the cardinals as an example. On the OD update they have 3 players listed as first baseman, and like 8 or 9 listed at shortstop. This in itself is not a problem. Players have secondary positions for a reason. Teams in real life play players at their secondary position all the time in real life so that they can get someone in the lineup who is blocked. I will use the cardinals as an example again. Nolan Gorman is a second baseman, but is a guy who came up projected as a third baseman, and would probably benefit from a move back into a position where his abilities profile better. But since the cardinals have a really good third baseman they play him at second. The problem with the CPU logic is that they completely disregard positional versatility.

    So the cardinals have 3 “official” first baseman. Nevermind the fact that they also have other players that can play first base, they see that they only have 3 first baseman and panic. It’s the reason why you’ll see trades like JJ wetherholt a consensus top 30 prospect at shortstop getting traded for a C potential first baseman. In real life teams aren’t going to trade their top prospect at a loaded position just so they can have a guy at triple A who’s primary position is first base. Thats because real organizations value talent over position 9 times out of 10 and will often move guys to different positions to simulate balance in their lineup. The problem is the CPU does not have the ability to change a players primary position like the human user does. The CPU prioritizes roster balance over talent and is often why you see some of the wacky moves that happen.

    What I’d like to see SDS do is possibly implement the ability for the CPU to change players positions based on fit, or even do what FIFA does. You lock a players positions based at the start of franchise but give the user the ability to “train” a player to a different position, or even add a position to their profile. The better the player fits a positions profile the quicker they can change/add that position to their profile. For instance it would be more difficult to train a 1B at SS, but if you wanted to train a first baseman to play left or right field it might only take a month of training in season.

    Just some observations and thoughts I figure I’d post and see what others think
  • jcar0725
    "ADAPT OR DIE"
    • Aug 2010
    • 3819

    #2
    Re: The trade logic is still horrible… here’s why based on my tests

    Originally posted by Therebelyell626
    So, I’ve done alot of simming with franchise since I got the game. Trying multiple different scenarios, rosters, settings and at least 10 seasons with at least 12 teams. Just really wanted to dive in under the hood and get a grasp on how everything works. One of the big selling points of this years game was the improved roster logic by the CPU. While yes there are some improvements like more balanced overalls and potentials for players, there still a lot that needs work. So through my various testing, the opening day live roster finally highlighted what to me is the biggest problem with trade logic in the game.

    The biggest problem is positional balance, and the CPU prioritizing that above all else including potential and overall which should not be the case. The first few live rosters offered more positional balance, but the opening day live update adjusted players to the position they are currently listed at in real life. So what you now have is some teams being loaded at certain positions, and super thin at others. I will use the cardinals as an example. On the OD update they have 3 players listed as first baseman, and like 8 or 9 listed at shortstop. This in itself is not a problem. Players have secondary positions for a reason. Teams in real life play players at their secondary position all the time in real life so that they can get someone in the lineup who is blocked. I will use the cardinals as an example again. Nolan Gorman is a second baseman, but is a guy who came up projected as a third baseman, and would probably benefit from a move back into a position where his abilities profile better. But since the cardinals have a really good third baseman they play him at second. The problem with the CPU logic is that they completely disregard positional versatility.

    So the cardinals have 3 “official” first baseman. Nevermind the fact that they also have other players that can play first base, they see that they only have 3 first baseman and panic. It’s the reason why you’ll see trades like JJ wetherholt a consensus top 30 prospect at shortstop getting traded for a C potential first baseman. In real life teams aren’t going to trade their top prospect at a loaded position just so they can have a guy at triple A who’s primary position is first base. Thats because real organizations value talent over position 9 times out of 10 and will often move guys to different positions to simulate balance in their lineup. The problem is the CPU does not have the ability to change a players primary position like the human user does. The CPU prioritizes roster balance over talent and is often why you see some of the wacky moves that happen.

    What I’d like to see SDS do is possibly implement the ability for the CPU to change players positions based on fit, or even do what FIFA does. You lock a players positions based at the start of franchise but give the user the ability to “train” a player to a different position, or even add a position to their profile. The better the player fits a positions profile the quicker they can change/add that position to their profile. For instance it would be more difficult to train a 1B at SS, but if you wanted to train a first baseman to play left or right field it might only take a month of training in season.

    Just some observations and thoughts I figure I’d post and see what others think
    Good points. With 30 team control I've got the ability over the years to veto or undo trades, but sometimes I will let the trade go through where I can change the players main position in order to make the trade make more sense.
    JUUUUUUUST A BIT OUTSIDE

    Comment

    • dowie
      MVP
      • Feb 2005
      • 1986

      #3
      Re: The trade logic is still horrible… here’s why based on my tests

      This is why before I start my franchise I balance the depth charts of all 30 teams.

      I balance the depth charts for 93-man roster as well as making sure the 40-man depth chart is balanced as well.

      Dowie
      Cardinals Nation - For The Lou
      Always a Tiger - Bless You Boys
      How can you not be romantic about baseball?

      Comment

      • strosdood
        MVP
        • Nov 2020
        • 1162

        #4
        Re: The trade logic is still horrible… here’s why based on my tests

        In your tests what exact trades were made that prove that logic isn’t improved? Weatherholt was actually traded for a C potential nobody? Everything you talked about was roster management logic more than trade logic it seems like, I’m not deep into my franchise yet but so far the trades I see make sense for the most part so was just curious


        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

        Comment

        • MiracleMet718
          Pro
          • Apr 2016
          • 2025

          #5
          Re: The trade logic is still horrible… here’s why based on my tests

          I haven’t seen too many crazy trades. The only time I’ve seen top prospects traded for C level potential players are if they have a high overall and are an establish veteran. Also Wetherholt isn’t listed as a top prospect. He’s a 22 year old 60 overall with B potential. I think it has more to do with his rating impacting his perceived value than anything else.

          The main top prospects I only saw get moved for big names. Roman Anthony got traded with a catcher to the Padres for Cease, which while it might seem a little crazy, there have been way worse trades done.

          It can definitely still be improved by default, especially limiting the number of trades mid season since most happen around the deadline and also removing the position issues of not taking into account secondary positions when trading. But it’s way more improved than past years.

          Comment

          • LowerWolf
            Hall Of Fame
            • Jun 2006
            • 12268

            #6
            Re: The trade logic is still horrible… here’s why based on my tests

            This is one reason I like using the default roster; it tends to be more balanced than the updates that follow it.

            Comment

            • Therebelyell626
              MVP
              • Mar 2018
              • 2887

              #7
              Re: The trade logic is still horrible… here’s why based on my tests

              Originally posted by strosdood
              In your tests what exact trades were made that prove that logic isn’t improved? Weatherholt was actually traded for a C potential nobody? Everything you talked about was roster management logic more than trade logic it seems like, I’m not deep into my franchise yet but so far the trades I see make sense for the most part so was just curious


              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
              Yes. JJ wetherholt was traded for a AAA First baseman with 72 potential. Straight up…. No kicker. Sure, JJ was only about a 66 at the time, but he has 89 potential, and is a consensus top prospect. This is just one of many instances where I see this happening. The CPU seems willing to make some really one sided trades when they are super thin at a position, and will accept a trade with nowhere near enough value. I didn’t write down every single trade I saw word for word but it is happening in every franchise with the live OD roster and happens often. You are more than welcome to go in and test yourself

              Comment

              • Therebelyell626
                MVP
                • Mar 2018
                • 2887

                #8
                Re: The trade logic is still horrible… here’s why based on my tests

                Originally posted by MiracleMet718
                I haven’t seen too many crazy trades. The only time I’ve seen top prospects traded for C level potential players are if they have a high overall and are an establish veteran. Also Wetherholt isn’t listed as a top prospect. He’s a 22 year old 60 overall with B potential. I think it has more to do with his rating impacting his perceived value than anything else.

                The main top prospects I only saw get moved for big names. Roman Anthony got traded with a catcher to the Padres for Cease, which while it might seem a little crazy, there have been way worse trades done.

                It can definitely still be improved by default, especially limiting the number of trades mid season since most happen around the deadline and also removing the position issues of not taking into account secondary positions when trading. But it’s way more improved than past years.
                What do you mean? He is literally a top 30 prospect on every major publication, and is even in the top 100 prospects when you fire up a franchise lol. What criteria are you using to judge who a “top prospect” is?

                Comment

                • MiracleMet718
                  Pro
                  • Apr 2016
                  • 2025

                  #9
                  Re: The trade logic is still horrible… here’s why based on my tests

                  Originally posted by Therebelyell626
                  What do you mean? He is literally a top 30 prospect on every major publication, and is even in the top 100 prospects when you fire up a franchise lol. What criteria are you using to judge who a “top prospect” is?
                  I’m talking about in the game itself. On the default roster he’s a 60 overall with B potential and is age 22, and because the game doesn’t take into account when a player was drafted and just looks at their age, he isn’t considered a top prospect. If he got a boost in rating and bumped up to A potential, it would be much harder to trade for him.

                  Comment

                  • Ghost Of The Year
                    Life's been good so far.
                    • Mar 2014
                    • 6352

                    #10
                    Re: The trade logic is still horrible… here’s why based on my tests

                    Originally posted by LowerWolf
                    This is one reason I like using the default roster; it tends to be more balanced than the updates that follow it.
                    Yeah, I'm a Default guy too but even if I perceive a teams roster as unbalanced, I just view it as that team is set up to facilitate trades quicker for the CPU to try to trade players. The only unbalance that I try to even out before starting franchiseis too get every teams catcher list to seven.
                    T-BONE.

                    Talking about things nobody cares.

                    Comment

                    • Unlucky 13
                      MVP
                      • Apr 2009
                      • 1707

                      #11
                      Re: The trade logic is still horrible… here’s why based on my tests

                      Being able to train players at additional positions, and have the CPU do the same, is one of my biggest franchise wishes. It should be a fairly simple and straightforward process, and potentially even have an aspect where their ratings are lower based on their skill set.



                      In a similar vein, I really wish that we were able to train pitchers to add pitch types to their arsenal. One of the other developer's titles used to do this several generations ago, and its nuts to me that The Show still doesn't include it.
                      Anyone who claims to be a fan of two teams in the same pro sport is actually a fan of none.

                      Comment

                      • Therebelyell626
                        MVP
                        • Mar 2018
                        • 2887

                        #12
                        Re: The trade logic is still horrible… here’s why based on my tests

                        Originally posted by MiracleMet718
                        I’m talking about in the game itself. On the default roster he’s a 60 overall with B potential and is age 22, and because the game doesn’t take into account when a player was drafted and just looks at their age, he isn’t considered a top prospect. If he got a boost in rating and bumped up to A potential, it would be much harder to trade for him.
                        Like I said. When you start a new franchise with the OD roster JJ is in the top 100 prospects list. I think he may even be in the top 40. So the game obviously views him as a “top prospect”. Plus potential has been extremely nerfed this year. 89 potential is actually higher than most top prospects in the “MLB The show 25”. So yes. Even at 60 overall and B potential the game views him as a top prospects

                        Comment

                        • Therebelyell626
                          MVP
                          • Mar 2018
                          • 2887

                          #13
                          Re: The trade logic is still horrible… here’s why based on my tests

                          Originally posted by Unlucky 13
                          Being able to train players at additional positions, and have the CPU do the same, is one of my biggest franchise wishes. It should be a fairly simple and straightforward process, and potentially even have an aspect where their ratings are lower based on their skill set.



                          In a similar vein, I really wish that we were able to train pitchers to add pitch types to their arsenal. One of the other developer's titles used to do this several generations ago, and its nuts to me that The Show still doesn't include it.
                          “Add pitches to their arsenal”. Shoot, I’d be happy if velocity and break actually improved in game lol. As of right now when you train bullpen they only improve in control even though velocity and curve are highlighted as well

                          Comment

                          • MiracleMet718
                            Pro
                            • Apr 2016
                            • 2025

                            #14
                            Re: The trade logic is still horrible… here’s why based on my tests

                            Originally posted by Therebelyell626
                            Like I said. When you start a new franchise with the OD roster JJ is in the top 100 prospects list. I think he may even be in the top 40. So the game obviously views him as a “top prospect”. Plus potential has been extremely nerfed this year. 89 potential is actually higher than most top prospects in the “MLB The show 25”. So yes. Even at 60 overall and B potential the game views him as a top prospects
                            Because of his age, he’s not viewed by the game as an untouchable prospect though. That’s all my point is. I’ve simmed plenty of franchise sims to test it out and the older a player is, the more likely they can be traded.

                            The top 100 prospect list is lined up based on the rating of all prospects, but the team’s willingness to trade doesn’t look at their prospect status. It purely looks at age, rating, and potential. If he was 18 and a 60 overall with a B potential, he’s worth much more than someone that is 22 with the same attributes in game.

                            Comment

                            • CBoller1331
                              It Appears I Blue Myself
                              • Dec 2013
                              • 3082

                              #15
                              Re: The trade logic is still horrible… here’s why based on my tests

                              Originally posted by MiracleMet718
                              Because of his age, he’s not viewed by the game as an untouchable prospect though. That’s all my point is. I’ve simmed plenty of franchise sims to test it out and the older a player is, the more likely they can be traded.

                              The top 100 prospect list is lined up based on the rating of all prospects, but the team’s willingness to trade doesn’t look at their prospect status. It purely looks at age, rating, and potential. If he was 18 and a 60 overall with a B potential, he’s worth much more than someone that is 22 with the same attributes in game.
                              On the flip side though, ive seen 70-75 OVR, 26 year olds with low/mid C potential show up on the top 100 lists in the game even though according to potential they won't really grow much in their career.

                              I haven't tested much, but generally agree with the OP. I still think trade logic has gotten better in the last few years, and maybe wouldn't classify it as "horrible," (if for no other reason than trade logic being something thats not very good in any sports game) but it'sdefinitely not at the point where I would just let it rip without 30-team control.

                              I've mentioned it in other threads, but it seems like some of the new things like the depth chart screen seem to use different logic than other areas of the game, so I'm hoping they canstart to flesh some of these things out.
                              Chicago Cubs
                              Michigan Wolverines

                              Thanks Peyton. #18

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