For all the slider testers, how many games do you test with?

[fistofrage]

Just wondering because I stared my franchise with a major power outage but was getting a ton of singles through 10 games. My average seemed too high around .310, but my power was way too low 5 HRs. But I just kept it going.

Fast forward to game 22 and I now have 23 home runs and the average is down to .272 and everything seems to be lining up just about right. Sanchez had a 7.1 era just getting rocked in his first 3 starts and then comes out and Ks 12 through 8 with 2 hits and 1 earned run against the twins.

There seems to be a lot of ebb and flow to the game. But it seems like a small sample size of even 10 games may not be enough.

[Jgainsey]

Re: For all the slider testers, how many games do you test with?

10 games isn't anywhere close to being enough to justify slider tweaks.

There are a few exceptions though, mostly with some of the global sliders... i.e. Fielder reaction/speed, base running, arm strength, etc.

But I wouldn't trust any of the sliders you see in the Slider Forum here. The only exception being Nomo's CPU sliders, because he actually has the sample size and data to back up his decisions.

The problem is that The Show really nails all of the ups and downs, and overall streakiness of baseball. So it would really take about 40-80 games to even begin to scratch the surface of proper slider tweaking in this game.

It's tough to find the time to get in that many games in and crunch all of the numbers.. So most guys making sliders for The Show are mostly going by a general feel they get after X amount of games.

But, the thing is, when you match the crazy statistical fluctuation of Major League Baseball with the subtle nature of SCEA's sliders, the results are usually going to fall into the realm of realism. That doesn't really have all that much to do with sliders, but is really just a testament to how well made the game is.

IMO, the best thing to do is just make sure you're playing on the difficulty level that is best suited for your skills, and let the game do the rest. The only slider tweaks I would recommend would be the global sliders, like I mentioned earlier.

[Bobhead]

Re: For all the slider testers, how many games do you test with?

It depends on a lot of factors and other information, as well as the nature and severity of whatever issue you're observing. For example, 10 games is not enough to draw conclusions based on being 5 runs below average... but if you instead had 0 home runs, or 40 home runs... such severity would add a little more credence to your sample.

You also have to consider the properties of the sample. 10 games in franchise mode, all with the same team, is not as diverse as 10 games in exhibition mode, with 10 different teams, against 10 different opponents, at 10 different ballparks.

To actually answer your question, last year (and every year prior), I started with a baseline of about 30 test games, and I kept a spreadsheet with a ton of different stats, from home runs, to foul ball rates, to strike-percentages, to wild pitches per game. From there, I check every 10-15 games or so, and cumulatively (so I look at previous samples) re-evaluate my stats.

I would advise against making any slider changes based on anything less than 25 games.

[fistofrage]

Re: For all the slider testers, how many games do you test with?

It depends on a lot of factors and other information, as well as the nature and severity of whatever issue you're observing. For example, 10 games is not enough to draw conclusions based on being 5 runs below average... but if you instead had 0 home runs, or 40 home runs... such severity would add a little more credence to your sample.

You also have to consider the properties of the sample. 10 games in franchise mode, all with the same team, is not as diverse as 10 games in exhibition mode, with 10 different teams, against 10 different opponents, at 10 different ballparks.

To actually answer your question, last year (and every year prior), I started with a baseline of about 30 test games, and I kept a spreadsheet with a ton of different stats, from home runs, to foul ball rates, to strike-percentages, to wild pitches per game. From there, I check every 10-15 games or so, and cumulatively (so I look at previous samples) re-evaluate my stats.

I would advise against making any slider changes based on anything less than 25 games.

Yeah, I am glad I didn't touch anything, I had a lot of games in before I started the franchise so I knew they were pretty solid, but honestly 1 click can make a ton of difference in this game, especially the solid hit slider.

26 games in and everything seems about perfect well at least reasonable. 3.83 ERA .268 BA 41 Doubles, 30 HRs, 5 triples, 116 runs scored.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: For all the slider testers, how many games do you test with?

But I wouldn't trust any of the sliders you see in the Slider Forum here. The only exception being Nomo's CPU sliders, because he actually has the sample size and data to back up his decisions.

What an unfortunate generalization. Most of us 'other' slider-makers have played countless games. Hundreds of games. And to say there's only 1 set that's been properly vetted is actually pretty insulting to quite a few folks. At least, I find it insulting. I know I have well over 200 games in with my sliders, with no simming and no managing, FYI. Just because I (and others) am not keeping a Google doc open at all times doesn't mean I don't have data, either. And I don't mean just 1st layer data like runs, hits, homers etc.., but all kinds of nuanced stats as well.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: For all the slider testers, how many games do you test with?

There seems to be a lot of ebb and flow to the game. But it seems like a small sample size of even 10 games may not be enough.

I agree with others than 10 games isn't nearly enough to judge anything. In my opinion, by the 50-game mark, your trends are usually what they're going to be. After this point, only really minor tweaks would be needed to tune relatively rare occurrences (like SB attempts/frequency, for example). As a general rule, the more games, the better.

[Armor and Sword]

Re: For all the slider testers, how many games do you test with?

I typically play between 30-40 games to get a good idea. During that 40 game test period I play various match-ups as well.

But that just gives me an idea. I like to see 50-60 games to get a good statistical trend and feel for how things are playing out.

The great thing about The Show is this game is so good on default that every year I pretty much know exactly which sliders to go right to and adjust...then find the one over or underpowered thing to tweak.

This year IMO base runners were flying down the line and making a lot routine grounders....really too close IMO. Errors on the PS4 version also seemed to high on default.

But that's the gist.....40-60 games to test and truly get the right feel to balance the game to my taste.

[KBLover]

Re: For all the slider testers, how many games do you test with?

For me, it depends on what I'm looking for.

If I'm looking for ball physics - I don't need 40 games for that just a variety of hit balls of varying strengths. Might get that in a game. Same for fielder reaction to said different types of hits. Don't need 40 games, imo, to see if you're making that "oh ****" reaction to a hard hit ball for just about everyone or if the better guys are responding better.

Same for base runner speed. If I see 40-50 speed guys beating routine grounders, I don't need 40 games to see that. Once is enough as there's little variation (none?) in player run speeds.

Throwing arm is tough to quantify but I go by results. If I'm getting 80 Arm players not getting 40 speed runners on routine chances, I think there's an issue. I'll change as soon as I see it until it looks as routine as it should be, then watch for other issues like losing triples. If the setting solves it but I get an issue like losing triples (or doubles if I went way too far), then I split the difference.

Same for fielder reaction. If "out of zone" plays are happening, on average, more than 50% of the time - that's a problem (by definition of "out of zone"). Granted, I'd need more than a few games, but you can see trends vs OF reaction ratings too. If I see average speed, 30 reaction CF playing like Willie Mays - yeah I need to change something.

If I'm looking for pitcher control - some games are needed, but that's something you can very much see as you play. It's also something I'd use fantasy draft for - like draft all low BB/9 pitchers and see if I'm still getting too much command, etc.

Or I edit all my guys to very low BB/9 and Control and the CPU pitchers to the same ratings, put the Control/Consistency to the same levels then save so I can continually replay that game and see what differences there are.

That's where interface comes into play. 0/0 on Classic is...WTF. 0/0 for the CPU isn't terrible, especially depending on the Strike Frequency though it hurts the top end - things like that show me faster what I might want to try before a long test or a franchise season where I leave it alone and see what happens.

Same for hitting. 0 Contact is bad for everyone, but anything less than 7 for me on timing is unrealistic with the response and type of hits for the hitter. 7 for the CPU and I'm facing 9 Ty Cobbs on HoF Classic lol.

I use fantasy draft for a lot - get a lot of different combinations of player types and opponent compositions. Then I play in different parks, especially ones I usually don't see a lot of in my "main" franchises.

Now if I'm happy with the "physics-y" things (player speed, batted ball velocity, throwing velocities, etc) and tendency things (low DISC CPU guys actually swing at a lot of pitches, high VIS prevents K's well, etc) then I get into turning it into realistic stats. That's where the games and different player talent profiles, etc are really needed. Same for considerations for your interface (me being Timing is way different than someone else being Pure Analog - or Classic Pitching vs Meter, etc).

That's where the sample is really needed, imo, especially if you're putting them out there for everyone else - and that's what most of the guys who put there's out there do and try to help people do.

[fistofrage]

Re: For all the slider testers, how many games do you test with?

I agree I noticed the baserunners were too fast right away. Pretty easy fix had that down to 2 almost right away.

Most of the sliders came pretty easy to test.

The difficult ones were fielder reaction and run speed. Trying to get a nice balance of long fy balls and gap shots being tracked down as well as ground balls in the infield. I finally settled on 2 run speed to match the baserunners and 6 reaction.

But that was a little hard to test because you want to track balls in the ally and deep fly balls, but sometimes you just don't hit the ball there so you couldn't always assume it was a slider issue.

The solid hits was the hardest. It seems to trump the power slider. I settled on 3 after playing a ton of games at 2 and 4. That slider is real sensitive. At 4 Andrew Romine was a threat to go yard on any pitch. At 2, Cabrera would hit a HR every 15 to 20 games if lucky. 3 seems just about right. Romine has gone yard twice in 80 or so games and Cabrera goes deep about once every 5 games. But it took along time for me to get the sliders right to get that ratio.

[Jgainsey]

Re: For all the slider testers, how many games do you test with?

What an unfortunate generalization. Most of us 'other' slider-makers have played countless games. Hundreds of games. And to say there's only 1 set that's been properly vetted is actually pretty insulting to quite a few folks. At least, I find it insulting. I know I have well over 200 games in with my sliders, with no simming and no managing, FYI. Just because I (and others) am not keeping a Google doc open at all times doesn't mean I don't have data, either. And I don't mean just 1st layer data like runs, hits, homers etc.., but all kinds of nuanced stats as well.

Unfortunate gereralization...?

That's a little melodramatic, eh?

I wasn't trying to step on the ego of any slider makers here. As someone who has released sliders here before, I enjoy following many of those threads and keeping up with trends and ideas that go on there.

In my opinion, I just think that most users would be better suited focusing on the proper difficulty level and ridding out the game that way. I prefer to try the global sliders, and maybe some of the other slider changes from a guy like nomo, simply because I don't have to worry about the discrepancies that arise out of all of our different skill sets and playing styles.

I feel that too often people here rob themselves of an organic up and down baseball experience by keeping the idea of slider adjustments in the front of their head at all times. I've been guilty of that myself, and it seems as if it leads to a never ending loop of conformation biases.

I was simply giving my opinion on the best way to go about playing the game and approaching possible slider tweaks. I never said that one slider set has been "properly vetted." Whatever the hell that even means...

No need to feel insulted.

Although, speaking of being insulted.. Does anyone else find strange that the guy with the most self deprecating title for a slider set is the one getting insulted here?

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: For all the slider testers, how many games do you test with?

Unfortunate gereralization...?

That's a little melodramatic, eh?

I wasn't trying to step on the ego of any slider makers here. As someone who has released sliders here before, I enjoy following many of those threads and keeping up with trends and ideas that go on there.

In my opinion, I just think that most users would be better suited focusing on the proper difficulty level and ridding out the game that way. I prefer to try the global sliders, and maybe some of the other slider changes from a guy like nomo, simply because I don't have to worry about the discrepancies that arise out of all of our different skill sets and playing styles.

I feel that too often people here rob themselves of an organic up and down baseball experience by keeping the idea of slider adjustments in the front of their head at all times. I've been guilty of that myself, and it seems as if it leads to a never ending loop of conformation biases.

I was simply giving my opinion on the best way to go about playing the game and approaching possible slider tweaks. I never said that one slider set has been "properly vetted." Whatever the hell that even means...

No need to feel insulted.

Although, speaking of being insulted.. Does anyone else find strange that the guy with the most self deprecating title for a slider set is the one getting insulted here?

Cool story, bro